Question on True Polymorph and Objects into Creatures (Includes Mature Themes)

[Levism84]

Warning: The following question involves the artifact the Book of Vile Darkness. Mature themes contained within.

I have a concept for a character which is a little out there, but in order to see if it would work, I need some help clarifying the rules of using the spell true polymorph to turn an object into a creature. Specifically, I need help clarifying turning a medium object into a human commoner.

The character is a warlock who was exposed to the Book of Vile Darkness early in his adventuring career. His neutral alignment allowed him to read and attune himself to the unholy artifact without becoming evil (role-played he made his saving throw). While not evil, he has been branded with the Mark of Darkness and somewhat altered by the book (role-played the mark of darkness as him being partly composed of shadows: -2 Strength, +2 Charisma from adjusted ability scores is reflected in character point buy; gaseous form and vampiric touch as warlock spells known; mark of darkness taken as a warlock invocation). Furthermore, after perusing the book, he decided he couldn't allow such evil to exist in the world. He tore from its pages a number of dark rituals in order to keep them from falling into the wrong hands (role-play the Pact of the Tome as being partly composed of the Book of Vile Darkness: book of shadows grants bloodbridge, copy, and pain as cantrips; book of ancient secrets grants a number of spells from the 3.5 BoVD to be used as dark rituals, transcribing these rituals into the book at appropriate levels). These pages, along with the knowledge of how to destroy the Book of Vile Darkness for 1d10 X 100 years is his hermit background discovery. Now, he pursues a life of adventure to a) find the Book of Vile Darkness once more (adventure hook) and b) perform acts of goodness in the world because he knows for his plan to work, he will have to delve deeply into darkness and evil.

His plan is to a) find the Book of Vile Darkness, b) sequester himself and the book into a demiplane (8th level mystic arcanium will be the spell demiplane), c) use true polymorph (9th level mystic arcanium) to turn medium objects into human commoners, d) perform evil experiments on the aforementioned commoners in order to keep the artifact from disappearing (since you have to perform at least one evil act every 10 days and cannot perform a good act while attuned to the artifact). He hopes that focusing on the pursuit of knowledge and remembering the acts of kindness he performed before will keep him from going insane or turning evil. However, since a lot of this is endgame stuff, it is really up to the DM to determine how all this pans out. I was just interested in the object to creature mechanics.

My question is, if you polymorph an object into a human commoner, what is its mental state like? Since it has mental ability scores, does that mean it has a personality, fabricated memories, the ability to communicate and talk? Is it considered a sentient being with free will? If you hurt or kill it, because it is a defenseless human commoner, is that considered evil? Is performing evil experiments on such a creature considered evil?

One of the dark rituals he will have transcribed into his Book of Shadows is the spell mindrape (BoVD 3.5). He stole the ritual from the Book of Vile Darkness because he saw it as an affront to free will and a dangerous knowledge that should not be let loose in the world. The spell allows the caster to "erase or add memories as she sees fit and alter emotions, opinions, and even alignment" so it seems reasonable the caster would be able to impart a sense of self, free will, or the ability to speak a language to a human created from an object.

[Vogonjeltz]

Assuming you turned an object into a creature, yeah it'd be a "real" creature. Commoner isn't an option, that's a profession. If you want a humanoid, Human, wood Elf, light foot halfling, rock gnome, etc... would be valid choices.

[Levism84]

Assuming you turned an object into a creature, yeah it'd be a "real" creature. Commoner isn't an option, that's a profession. If you want a humanoid, Human, wood Elf, light foot halfling, rock gnome, etc... would be valid choices.

Looking around the forums, I haven't seen anything that helps to build a stat block for humans, so I just used the CR 0 human commoner since it would be the weakest and most basic human form that has statistics. Is there anywhere in the PHB or DMG where it tells you how non-professioned NPC stat blocks are made?

[SharkForce]

strictly speaking, you *can* turn an object into a commoner (or an archmage, for that matter) according to RAW (they are creatures, true polymorph doesn't care about class levels or learned abilities, it just gives you the statistics of a creature no questions asked).

that said, a lot of people don't like the spell to work that way (i certainly don't) and so there's a fairly significant chance your DM will make a ruling that goes against the RAW (as you can see, the above poster already has done so, and doesn't even feel the need to call out when something is a house rule). as such the questions you are asking can only be answered by your DM.

[Vogonjeltz]

strictly speaking, you *can* turn an object into a commoner (or an archmage, for that matter) according to RAW (they are creatures, true polymorph doesn't care about class levels or learned abilities, it just gives you the statistics of a creature no questions asked).

that said, a lot of people don't like the spell to work that way (i certainly don't) and so there's a fairly significant chance your DM will make a ruling that goes against the RAW (as you can see, the above poster already has done so, and doesn't even feel the need to call out when something is a house rule). as such the questions you are asking can only be answered by your DM.

No strictly speaking you can not. Those are not creature types, they're located in an appendix for NPCs, and are not valid options. It's not a house rule, it's using the actually printed text.

[MaxWilson]

No strictly speaking you can not. Those are not creature types, they're located in an appendix for NPCs, and are not valid options. It's not a house rule, it's using the actually printed text.

That's pretty nitpicky, since for OP's purpose all he needs is for them to turn into a "human", which absolutely is something that True Polymorph can do. And even if it wasn't, he could turn objects into pixies or lizardmen and torture them.

My ruling as DM would be, "Yes, that counts as something vile and repulsive enough to satisfy the book." Good luck keeping your sanity longer than six months. It's a lot like having kids in order to torture them. If there is any good in you, you will grow to hate yourself.

[SharkForce]

No strictly speaking you can not. Those are not creature types, they're located in an appendix for NPCs, and are not valid options. It's not a house rule, it's using the actually printed text.

a type is not a game-defined term. chocolate is a type of food. desserts are a kind of food. grains are a type of food. even though those types are not all classified the same way, they are all still types. in much the same way, "human knight" is a type of creature. it is not a type in the same way that "ancient blue dragon" or "flying snake" is a type, but it is still a type.

there is nothing about true polymorph that says it classifies type in such a manner that "archmage" or "soldier" is not appropriate. it is certainly possible to decide you don't want those to be options and to rule otherwise, but nothing in the spell description excludes NPCs from being a type of creature.

[Vogonjeltz]

That's pretty nitpicky, since for OP's purpose all he needs is for them to turn into a "human", which absolutely is something that True Polymorph can do. And even if it wasn't, he could turn objects into pixies or lizardmen and torture them.

My ruling as DM would be, "Yes, that counts as something vile and repulsive enough to satisfy the book." Good luck keeping your sanity longer than six months. It's a lot like having kids in order to torture them. If there is any good in you, you will grow to hate yourself.

It's no more nitpicking than saying he can't teleport through time by casting prestidigitation. It's just not what the spell does.


a type is not a game-defined term. chocolate is a type of food. desserts are a kind of food. grains are a type of food. even though those types are not all classified the same way, they are all still types. in much the same way, "human knight" is a type of creature. it is not a type in the same way that "ancient blue dragon" or "flying snake" is a type, but it is still a type.

there is nothing about true polymorph that says it classifies type in such a manner that "archmage" or "soldier" is not appropriate. it is certainly possible to decide you don't want those to be options and to rule otherwise, but nothing in the spell description excludes NPCs from being a type of creature.

Types are defined in the monster manual. In the front of the book.

[SharkForce]

Types are defined in the monster manual. In the front of the book.

uh-huh. sure. let's read one of those, shall we?

"aberrations are utterly alien beings. many of them have innate magical abilities drawn from the creature's alien mind rather than the mystical forces of the world. the quintessential aberrations are aboleths, beholders, mind flayers, and slaadi."

so, if your explanation is correct, that the things defined in the front of the monster manual are what you can turn into, i can only conclude that you can turn into an aberration (that being a type of creature), but not into an aboleth (that being a type of aberration, not a type of creature as defined in the front of the book).

unless, of course, types of types of creatures are acceptable, in which case, there is no line we can draw based only on the spell text which says that "elven scout" or "drow mage" are any less acceptable than "beholder". we can certainly decide for ourselves that we feel that there *should* be a distinction made (though given the spell seems to have absolutely zero difficulty whatsoever in modifying your brain to remove class abilities, it should equally be able to modify your brain to add class abilities, i can't say that my decision is based on the rules so much as it is based on a desire to have the spell work differently).

and, frankly, i have made such a decision. in any game where i DM, nobody will be turning into an archmage. but that isn't because i think the spell says so. it's because i don't want it to work like that. i am, however, fully aware that as written it *does* work like that.

[Logosloki]

Types are defined in the monster manual. In the front of the book.

And one of types is humanoid.

EDIT: From the monster manual: "A variety of humanoids appear throughout this book, but the races detailed in the Player's Handbook, with the exception of drow are dealt with in appendix B. That appendix gives you a number of stat blocks that you can use to make various members of those races."

So, true polymorph can be used to make an object into a humanoid (RAW), it is up to the DM if they wish to allow for a specific member of a race to be made (I'd allow because Human Commoner is pretty basic, then again I'd allow for various other reasons too).

As for mental state....it depends on how the DM and you want to play it. From the PHB though it looks like the spell grants them sentience and sapience so they would act like a normal human commoner. The only thing specifically stated is that the DM moves and does actions for them on the same turn as you in combat but they do start friendly to you and your companions. For flair reasons a DM and you could decide that the commoners made this way are based on people you have met. I would take it that route because the character is under the influence of the book of vile darkness and the thought that true polymorph makes former bullies or people you like first and then starts making humanoids closer and closer to people they care about is positively in tone for such an artifact of pure evil.

[Levism84]

As for mental state....it depends on how the DM and you want to play it. From the PHB though it looks like the spell grants them sentience and sapience so they would act like a normal human commoner. The only thing specifically stated is that the DM moves and does actions for them on the same turn as you in combat but they do start friendly to you and your companions. For flair reasons a DM and you could decide that the commoners made this way are based on people you have met. I would take it that route because the character is under the influence of the book of vile darkness and the thought that true polymorph makes former bullies or people you like first and then starts making humanoids closer and closer to people they care about is positively in tone for such an artifact of pure evil.

So, I hadn't even considered the fact the Book of Vile Darkness might try to mess with my character's head like that, probably in an attempt to turn him evil or corrupt his intent. Or, just, you know... be an evil artifact that sows pain and discord wherever it goes. From a role-playing standpoint I like the idea of True Polymorph using people my character has met as templates for the appearance and personality of humans created by the spell.

I can see a lot of different ways this spell could be interpreted, and I really appreciate everyone taking the time to help answer my question. I have a few different ideas I can run by my DM to see which route he feels like going.