Do craft/profession skills impact your games?

[tadkins]

I've heard of them being spoke of as "fluff" skills. Nothing that really warrants much thought into a character aside from very specific builds. Some DMs even given them away for free to help people add backstory to their characters. Seems to be a lot of creative possibilities relating to them as well, as evidenced by another thread I saw here the other day. But how many people here build a character with them in mind, with a desire to get some serious use out of them? What do you as DMs think about a player wanting to do so?

As an example, I once brought a character into a game with a bit of a background as a miner. One of her primary reasons for adventuring was to go out and discover new lucrative sites in which to set up mining operations. Profession: Mining would have been something I kept with as the levels went on, with some resources being spent toward a successful operation in the way of spells, magic items, and money to hire workers. Mechanically it would have been a way to make some money and potentially discover some valuable treasure during downtime.

The DM found this presentation of the character more annoying than anything and I ended up scrapping the idea. I simply suspected it would be because he would have had to create more of a "game" to accommodate the concept. If you were a DM in a similar situation, how would you have felt?

[Geddy2112]

Often times, my group allows a profession check to stand in for a relevant knowledge or other skill, so it can be useful. Craft can be used the same way but it rarely applies. Craft comes up for making magical items or alchemists, but that is about it.

If I was the DM, I would have supported your mining thing, for most games. It does not have a lot of place in a hack and slash extraplanar dungeon crawl, but it fits great in most other games.

[Milo v3]

One of my players (a paladin strangely) uses a rank every level to improve his Profession (Farmer) ranks and does a decent amount of roleplaying about his farm. Hasn't caused any issues, but I give my players a decent amount of downtime. The other players noticed that I allowed such behaviour and have started to try and build themselves a tavern between adventures and take ranks in Profession.

[SangoProduction]

Hmm....Don't know about you, but Profession:Mining doesn't seem like something that can be "done' just anywhere.

But, on to the point of the post (I assume), no they haven't truly, mechanically, impacted my games. Professions just do basically nothing compared to adventuring. (But where did the goblins find hundreds of gold?)

And even if they did? Adjust loot tables. Even if they were better than adventuring: "OK, well, I guess you can sit here and play with your gems... meanwhile we go and do the actual fun."

As someone mentioned above, I (and I often find that others) use Profession as a specialized version of Knowledge checks. I personally add +5 to any such knowledge-profession use. It's the difference between a General Practitioner and an Epidemiologist (assume equal years of training/experience). The latter is useful in fewer cases, but his knowledge is more in-depth than the generalist.

As for role playing? It does serve to flesh out the character a bit more. I mean, you don't even need to write a backstory to have one by virtue of your skills.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Most of my non-caster builds have ranks in craft (alchemy), thank you magical training feat, and profession (siege engineer) makes not-infrequent appearances, thank you explosive packs.

Blowing stuff up is not strictly the province of full casters. There are also a number of other useful alchemy effects.

[tadkins]

Often times, my group allows a profession check to stand in for a relevant knowledge or other skill, so it can be useful. Craft can be used the same way but it rarely applies. Craft comes up for making magical items or alchemists, but that is about it.

If I was the DM, I would have supported your mining thing, for most games. It does not have a lot of place in a hack and slash extraplanar dungeon crawl, but it fits great in most other games.

It would be more for in-between adventures. Find a good spot (divinations are great for this) set up a mine, hire some folks to run it, and check back now and then, after you've raided a dungeon.

I figure it would have also been great to provide some hooks for the DM. Come back from finishing a quest, find out my mine just took on a bandit problem. He sadly didn't see it that way though.


One of my players (a paladin strangely) uses a rank every level to improve his Profession (Farmer) ranks and does a decent amount of roleplaying about his farm. Hasn't caused any issues, but I give my players a decent amount of downtime. The other players noticed that I allowed such behaviour and have started to try and build themselves a tavern between adventures and take ranks in Profession.

I actually did the same thing for a human wizard. Wood Elementalist archetype from Pathfinder, invested in Profession: Farmer. Felt like it gave him a very down to earth, natural theme.

Love your story. Open a tavern, have each person take a skill that relates to running it well. Great opportunity for RP there. :)



Hmm....Don't know about you, but Profession:Mining doesn't seem like something that can be "done' just anywhere.

But, on to the point of the post (I assume), no they haven't truly, mechanically, impacted my games. Professions just do basically nothing compared to adventuring. (But where did the goblins find hundreds of gold?)

And even if they did? Adjust loot tables. Even if they were better than adventuring: "OK, well, I guess you can sit here and play with your gems... meanwhile we go and do the actual fun."

As someone mentioned above, I (and I often find that others) use Profession as a specialized version of Knowledge checks. I personally add +5 to any such knowledge-profession use. It's the difference between a General Practitioner and an Epidemiologist (assume equal years of training/experience). The latter is useful in fewer cases, but his knowledge is more in-depth than the generalist.

As for role playing? It does serve to flesh out the character a bit more. I mean, you don't even need to write a backstory to have one by virtue of your skills.

I'd assume a person with Profession: Mining and supporting skills like Knowledge: Nature would be pretty good at finding spots to set up. Maybe Knowledge: History to find a good spot for digging up some artifacts. "This was where the terrible lich was destroyed all those centuries ago, let's dig up some ruins and see what we can find."

As mentioned, it would be more of a side thing for between adventures. Wouldn't cut into the main game too deeply, and could even help to provide hooks. Maybe the mine is where the entrance to the BBEG's lair ends up being dug up from.


Most of my non-caster builds have ranks in craft (alchemy), thank you magical training feat, and profession (siege engineer) makes not-infrequent appearances, thank you explosive packs.

Blowing stuff up is not strictly the province of full casters. There are also a number of other useful alchemy effects.

Alchemy is awesome, and one of the few such skills that actually gets some mainstream attention I think.

[FocusWolf413]

If someone has craft (poison) or (traps), that's a super important part of how that character will operate. Artificers need Craft skills.

[Uncle Pine]

In one of my groups, the Barbarian/Warblade has ranks in Profession... Tailor. This ended up being way more relevant than simply adding skill points for fluff: he managed to drag the rest of the group into this and so the whole last session passed with them crafting five custom royal outfits to go to the capital and then showing the clothes off to show to wealthy merchants and nobles to hopefully start a lucrative business. That's six whole hours of dressmaking and frilly dresses!

I once had the pleasure to play as The Great and Powerful Korg (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?195049-Help-Me-Be-Annoying-with-a-Barbarian-Wizard). In that occasion I always spent skill points in Profession (cook) at every level up and eventually opened a restaurant called Korg Boiled Chicken after meeting Kronk, a chicken infested Commoner.

In Pathfinder, the Master Craftsman feat (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/master-craftsman---final) allows you to use a Craft or Profession skill (like Craft (basket weaving)) to craft magic weapons, armors or wondrous items (like candle of invocation). One of my players once invited me to a boring Pathfinder game because he knew I'd wind up something crazy to spice things up. I decided to play as a straight Commoner. You can guess what happened.

You need 3 ranks in Craft (weaponsmithing) to become an Exotic Weapon Master. This is usually trivial, but can become rather relevant in low Int builds.

[SwordChucks]

Profession: sailor comes up for a few PRCs and in nautical campaigns, but is mostly useless.

[Jeff the Green]

I often allow a successful Craft, Knowledge, or Profession check (usually DC 15) to grant a +2 bonus on some other check. Like a Craft (woodworking) to use Disable Device to sabotage a wagon wheel or Knowledge (geography) to Hide/Move Silently in a natural environment. Less-commonly used skills, like Knowledge (architecture and engineering) or Professions are more likely to get the bonus.

[Denver]

So far, at least, our group has found that Craft: Alchemy (and, by extension, Craft: Poison-making for its synergy with Alchemy) Craft: Weaponmaking, and Craft: Armorcrafting have all been pretty useful.

Our wizard makes his own masterwork daggers, which he loves to throw, and our barbarian makes his own leather cod-piece. The rogue makes useful alchemical items and poisons.

I can certainly see the relative value of crafting dropping off both as the party's wealth and the party's magical power increases. But, for an adventure starting at level 1, we have certainly found the Craft skills useful.



The DM found this presentation of the character more annoying than anything and I ended up scrapping the idea. I simply suspected it would be because he would have had to create more of a "game" to accommodate the concept. If you were a DM in a similar situation, how would you have felt?

I certainly feel like your idea is not so troublesome that it couldn't be included in nearly any campaign (to a degree), and that perhaps the DM just wanted to simplify the character's interaction and depth-of-place in the world. This isn't terribly uncommon, nor is it "wrong," but it is somewhat limiting in what a player can do with their character.

A lot of DMs make a fairly fleshed out world, but then aren't aware that they don't want their PCs to interact with their NPCs the way NPCs interact with NPCs. So, a Mining Captain/Hero just doesn't fit the bill, because the DM would have to track things that normally could exist in a more nebulous scope between NPCs.

[Talionis]

Craft Alchemy can counter spells very effectively if you optimize it with Grenadier and Mad Bomber (Tactical Feat) from Players handbook two. You use your craft check to distract someone while they are casting a spell.

But we have had all sorts of. We had some one role play Profession Astromy who was building up for Sublime Chord requirements and the player worked as a seer prediction futures. The DM used it as a hook to put us in employee of merchants and ultimately the king and since it was skill based divinination it was absolutely virtually worthless and misleading but it was fun for the DM to role play and give us bad clues, sometimes decent clues when we were up against a real challenge.

[AtlasSniperman]

I played a character with max'd Craft(Trapmaking) and Knowledge(architecture and Engineering)[DM let we swap Knowledge(local) for it]
The idea of an engineer really drove the character and was useful in far more than just "craft this and make money". The character was great for finding the weak-points of buildings, setting quick traps, etc. The character was built around the concept of the engineer.

As a DM I encourage and support players who try to do this kind of thing. I will go out of my way to help them use their Craft or Profession skill to the level they want. They are skills that can be so much more than just gold-sources.

As for your particular one [Profession(Miner)]; I'd be happy to see such a character. It'd give me a chance, as a person who loves to research, to look into geology and the typical formation or rock layers and locations where ores or gemstones are usually found. I'd let you use it during adventuring even when there's not any mining to be done(This section of tunnel looks like it could collapse very easily, That sort of rock is usually very soft, That rock there is likely quite thin). Craft and Profession are great skills that I personally feel are under-appreciated.

[Curmudgeon]

No, they basically have no impact in my games. Those skills require down time when the PCs could be adventuring and earning XP. I'm not going to refuse to offer the other characters adventuring gigs while 1 or 2 PCs stay in town doing their own thing for days or weeks at a time. Because the rest of the party was going to go adventuring and leave the in-town character(s) behind, they've always elected to accompany the party rather than fall behind on XP and treasure opportunities. PCs go adventuring because that's the fastest way to advance in the game. Players who think they can add some crafting or safe earning time and force the other PCs to twiddle their thumbs are easily disappointed.

As a player I've often had one of my Rogues earn some extra gp while other PCs were spending time individually (looking for a scroll of a particular spell, doing pro bono healing at a temple, & c.) but I've done that by performing using Sleight of Hand and Tumble, not Craft and Profession.

[AtlasSniperman]

No, they basically have no impact in my games. Those skills require down time when the PCs could be adventuring and earning XP. I'm not going to refuse to offer the other characters adventuring gigs while 1 or 2 PCs stay in town doing their own thing for days or weeks at a time. Because the rest of the party was going to go adventuring and leave the in-town character(s) behind, they've always elected to accompany the party rather than fall behind on XP and treasure opportunities. PCs go adventuring because that's the fastest way to advance in the game. Players who think they can add some crafting or safe earning time and force the other PCs to twiddle their thumbs are easily disappointed.

As a player I've often had one of my Rogues earn some extra gp while other PCs were spending time individually (looking for a scroll of a particular spell, doing pro bono healing at a temple, & c.) but I've done that by performing using Sleight of Hand and Tumble, not Craft and Profession.

Craft(bowmaking) allows crafting of arrows in most campaigns I've seen. That's a craft that directly influences the party as a whole, doesn't cost much downtime, and can be done while adventuring.

[Kelb_Panthera]

No, they basically have no impact in my games. Those skills require down time when the PCs could be adventuring and earning XP. I'm not going to refuse to offer the other characters adventuring gigs while 1 or 2 PCs stay in town doing their own thing for days or weeks at a time. Because the rest of the party was going to go adventuring and leave the in-town character(s) behind, they've always elected to accompany the party rather than fall behind on XP and treasure opportunities. PCs go adventuring because that's the fastest way to advance in the game. Players who think they can add some crafting or safe earning time and force the other PCs to twiddle their thumbs are easily disappointed.

What? I don't get this. It's not as though the players are sitting around for weeks at a time. The stress of near constant life-and-death struggles should make any PC relatively comfortable with a bit of down-time here and there.

After a certain point, it doesn't even make sense for the PC's to be constantly facing level appropriate challenges on a day-to-day basis because a world facing that many high level threats is just plain unsustainable.

If you and yours have fun playing it that way, more power to you. I just don't see any solid logic behind it either in character or in the metagame.

[Curmudgeon]

What? I don't get this. It's not as though the players are sitting around for weeks at a time. The stress of near constant life-and-death struggles should make any PC relatively comfortable with a bit of down-time here and there.
I just offer the opportunity to adventure, pretty much constantly, and let the PCs pick which offers to accept and which to reject. I also follow the DMG with regard to encounter difficulty (table on page 49), so fully 5% of all possible encounters are of "overpowering" difficulty and another 15% are "very difficult". I tell the players in advance that if they're not prepared to run away occasionally, their characters are going to die. With about 1 in 5 encounters bypassed, there are many situations the party can go revisit once they've become stronger. Add in the new opportunities (where I try to make it a minimum of two possible jobs to avoid railroading), and there's something interesting to do all the time. Some of the PCs might prefer down time, but most (almost everybody who doesn't need to seek out new spells for their repertoire) would prefer to go adventuring.

Perhaps this is a function of my gaming group, where most people have families and jobs to keep them busy, so we have lots of cancellations and don't get together as often as we used to. The players are eager to do some gaming, so their characters are eager to go on adventures.

[Sir Chuckles]

I'm one of those DMs that gives everyone background skills, and often declares a synergy bonus between things that make logical sense.

My issue with craft and profession skills is how mechanically useless they can be to full-time adventurers.

I'm sorry Fighter with a carpentry background, you don't have three weeks to make a catapult for the incoming orc siege. Even with help, you wouldn't make it in time.
I'm sorry 10th level Rogue, your Profession skill pays out in gold pieces per week. You don't have seven years to afford a +1 Dagger.

[oxybe]

Personally speaking, as a person who is employed, i find the profession skill annoying.

Someone who's ability to do their job (be they craftsmen or ), that can be measured in any increments that the d20 can properly represent is NOT a professional by any means.

I do tech support for a living. My job would involve, in 3.5 terms: Diplomacy, Bluff, Gather information, Knowledge (telecommunications), Sense motive and probably a few more I can't think of off hand.

"profession(tech support)" is such shorthand it doesn't actually help identify what an individual actually needs to know to be proficient at the profession.

This is why i love 4th ed's removal of those skills. Your character is a blacksmith. why? because you want him to be. under normal conditions he can do everything a blacksmith can do, and under periods of stress or if something comes up, he uses his skills: Diplomacy to barter for the rights for materials over competing smiths, Endurance for prolonged/overtime work in the smithy, Thievery if you're doing fine work or adding compartments, History if trying to accurately portray crests on works.

This far closer portrays actual professions then "profession (tech support) 5 ranks"

[Saintheart]

It's a subtype of the craft (traps) build, but the Runecaster PrC is utterly dependent on a good Craft (any writing skill) check.

[Deophaun]

Perhaps this is a function of my gaming group, where most people have families and jobs to keep them busy, so we have lots of cancellations and don't get together as often as we used to. The players are eager to do some gaming, so their characters are eager to go on adventures.
Again, what are you playing where you would spend more than five minutes OOC on a month of downtime? In my experience, this:

Player: I take a week to craft X
DM: OK. Your next adventure is...

Takes less time than this:

Player: I take a week to craft X
DM: So, you aren't going on the next adventure?
Player: I didn't say that.
DM: But we want to play, and you are taking up time with this crafting.
Player: Fine. I won't craft it. Can I retrain my Item Creation feats?
DM: When you get downtime.

Heck, I've been in campaigns where we use this email thing to handle downtime.

DM: "Good job. You saved the kingdom and got 3,000 XP. Next week we'll start on the next campaign. You'll have, say, four months in game time between then and now. Just message me what, if anything, your characters do."

Game time wasted: Zero.

[Milo v3]

One thing I find weird about this issue is that downtime skills using up gametime isn't bad, they're part of the game. The group doesn't need to be stabbing things 24/7 to be playing and enjoying themselves. Just need to get the balance between downtime and adventuring right for your group.

[Curmudgeon]

Again, what are you playing where you would spend more than five minutes OOC on a month of downtime?
That's not the situation. The situation is the other PCs don't want the month of down time. In my games enemies advance in experience too. If the PCs spend a month not gaining XP, the enemies may have gotten enough stronger that they may re-take a village the PCs had previously freed. The rest of the world doesn't stand still when the PCs do.

[tadkins]

I suppose in retrospect, it might have been selfish and presumptuous of me to present the concept. Here the DM had a game all planned out, and I walked up to him and essentially asked to play Terraria in his world.

Mainly just wanted to do something a bit different. A wizard in rugged clothes who studies geology, who gathers materials herself (where do necromancers think all that onyx comes from, anyway?) and fights with a pickaxe, as opposed to the traditional bookworm in robe with staff.

Ah well. Thanks for the replies everyone. :)

[Kelb_Panthera]

I suppose in retrospect, it might have been selfish and presumptuous of me to present the concept. Here the DM had a game all planned out, and I walked up to him and essentially asked to play Terraria in his world.

Mainly just wanted to do something a bit different. A wizard in rugged clothes who studies geology, who gathers materials herself (where do necromancers think all that onyx comes from, anyway?) and fights with a pickaxe, as opposed to the traditional bookworm in robe with staff.

Ah well. Thanks for the replies everyone. :)

There's no good reason not to do that. You don't even need to put more than a rank or two in profession (geologist), though I'd keep knowledge (nature) up to snuff for reasons beyond meeting your fluff desire. Heck, complete arcane has a section on alternate spellbooks that includes an option for carved gems.

You can't get around the mechanics* without DM intervention but the fluff of your character is all yours to play with.

*Technically there're a number of ways to make wizardry mechanics much less relevant than normal but there's some significant resource investment.

[tadkins]

There's no good reason not to do that. You don't even need to put more than a rank or two in profession (geologist), though I'd keep knowledge (nature) up to snuff for reasons beyond meeting your fluff desire. Heck, complete arcane has a section on alternate spellbooks that includes an option for carved gems.

You can't get around the mechanics* without DM intervention but the fluff of your character is all yours to play with.

*Technically there're a number of ways to make wizardry mechanics much less relevant than normal but there's some significant resource investment.

Is geology actually a profession? Couldn't find it on the list. I figured something like that would be incorporated into Knowledge: Nature. Definitely something I was planning on investing in, to show dedication to the concept.

The carved gem spellbook though, never knew about that one. I'll have to check that out, thank you for sharing. :)

One of the things I might have done later on as a high level wizard would be to port over to the Plane of Earth in search of the most valuable stuff. Even though it would have been perfectly legal as a wizard, I think a DM would have definitely taken issue to that, especially since it's likely he'd have nothing in his notes regarding a trip there.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Is geology actually a profession? Couldn't find it on the list. I figured something like that would be incorporated into Knowledge: Nature. Definitely something I was planning on investing in, to show dedication to the concept.

Profession covers all professions. It's just that -most- professions don't have any game mechanics associated with them beyond the simple make check, get gold mechanic. If geology is a thing in the setting, and with valuable minerals and oil being things there should be a pretty good chance, and there are governments large and advanced enough to support academia then geologists should be a thing.


The carved gem spellbook though, never knew about that one. I'll have to check that out, thank you for sharing. :)

No problem. Always happy to share knowledge. I always put a few must-have spells on my wizards' bodies as tattoos per that same section of complete arcane.


One of the things I might have done later on as a high level wizard would be to port over to the Plane of Earth in search of the most valuable stuff. Even though it would have been perfectly legal as a wizard, I think a DM would have definitely taken issue to that, especially since it's likely he'd have nothing in his notes regarding a trip there.

Plane hopping is one of those things you should discuss with your DM beforehand. There are a few mechanical peculiarities and potentially huge setting implications to leaving the prime material and you shouldn't push that on your group without at least discussing it first. This is a cooperative game and the key to successful cooperation is good communication.

[Deophaun]

That's not the situation. The situation is the other PCs don't want the month of down time. In my games enemies advance in experience too.
You claim that it's the world not waiting on the PCs, when in fact it's the world revolving around them. Time started when they were born (otherwise, they would either be face-rolling everything or be hopelessly outclassed), and there is nothing else in the whole wide world checking the darkness. There's no logistical concerns, no stalemates, nothing except whether or not the party is stuck in one location for too long. The villains need never wait for hidden plans to come to fruition, the party always has the key to unraveling their secret designs, and consequences are immediate.

Now, I've ran fast-paced campaigns like that, but I would never pretend they are somehow a product of the world not waiting. Quite the opposite. It's amazing how conveniently timed everything must be for those campaigns to work.

It's generally the PCs that need to wait for the world to catch up before they can act, which is why there is downtime.

[Azoth]

As a DM I give out 2 free skill points a level that must be spent on a craft, knowledge, perform, or profession. I also make all knowledge skills class skills for all classes. I have seen some interesting combinations done out of this set up to facilitate character back stories and hobbies.

In a recent pathfinder game a friend ran, he refered to my Warder as the craft-o-matic. I had an extra skill point every level I didn't need for skills crucial to my build. Because of this, I picked up a new craft skill every level, and had high enough modifiers on a take 10 to hit masterwork DCs for every craft. This actually was relevant to my character. He was a classic NG do-gooder. His home was a massive workshop that took in orphans/homeless/destitute and taught them a trade so they could provide for themselves. It was fun, and during their travels he made quick friends with most blue collar NPCs by offering to work for them in exchange for goods/services/information.

[tadkins]

Profession covers all professions. It's just that -most- professions don't have any game mechanics associated with them beyond the simple make check, get gold mechanic. If geology is a thing in the setting, and with valuable minerals and oil being things there should be a pretty good chance, and there are governments large and advanced enough to support academia then geologists should be a thing.

This is true. In the end having a second skill to invest in would go even further to solidifying the concept.


No problem. Always happy to share knowledge. I always put a few must-have spells on my wizards' bodies as tattoos per that same section of complete arcane.

A while back I thought of and asked about the possibility of a "Gem Wizard" here. Your suggestion in particular would go a long way for that idea.


Plane hopping is one of those things you should discuss with your DM beforehand. There are a few mechanical peculiarities and potentially huge setting implications to leaving the prime material and you shouldn't push that on your group without at least discussing it first. This is a cooperative game and the key to successful cooperation is good communication.

Yep, good point. Random plane shifting wouldn't be something I'd do without actually talking about it first, but I do wonder if DMs ever had to deal with someone casting Plane Shift out of the blue and said they wanted to go to Hell. xD

[Denver]

Perhaps this is a function of my gaming group, where most people have families and jobs to keep them busy, so we have lots of cancellations and don't get together as often as we used to. The players are eager to do some gaming, so their characters are eager to go on adventures.

Doesn't nearly every single human have a family and job? I bring this up because those determinants by no means separate the reason for why your group might function differently than others, regarding Craft and Profession. Mentioning them doesn't make distinguish why your group doesn't like to use Craft or Profession - do you think?

Further, I feel like the latter statement almost outright states "if it ain't 'adventuring,' then it ain't gaming." This feels, to me, at least, to be a simplification of what the game can present in terms other than what "adventuring" would seem to dictate. Certainly there is some room for flexibility between solely adventuring and solely crafting or professing?

Edit, addendum: Just to press the point: Certainly there are a number of combinations of classes, items, abilities, templates, and races that enable a character to require far less sleep (or rather, "rest") than the normal character, presuming they were an otherwise mundane character, there is almost no reason this character would not have what you call "down time." In fact, they would probably find their reduced sleeping time to be the exactly ideal time to complete their crafting or professing, if they had chosen to pursue it.

[Curmudgeon]

Doesn't nearly every single human have a family and job?
College students, away from home: no, not nearly every single human has those things to occupy their time and conflict with playing D&D.

[frost890]

College students, away from home: no, not nearly every single human has those things to occupy their time and conflict with playing D&D.

LOL isn't school your job while in college? you have to study if you want to make it through.

I had a monk/rouge with craft trap. He hid a poisoned dagger trap in his monk wraps. a simple spring loaded trap. It went off the first time he hit. It made a impact in to a kidney. :smallbiggrin: After a few games with different craft skills I have been banned from them by one GM. I am now working on the profession skills.

[Denver]

College students, away from home: no, not nearly every single human has those things to occupy their time and conflict with playing D&D.

I'm not following the structure of your statement. If the first part, before the colon, is clarifying your own, earlier, statement, then let that be. If the first statement is being used to support the second statement, then it's a non-sequitur. If attending school is not a "job," then it certainly still occupies time and requires their attendance and effort to receive their "pay." A rose by any other name...

In terms of jobs and family, it is accurate to say that nearly every human has those things that conflict with their recreation time. Less than .2 percent of the world's population is a "full orphan" (~20 million) thus, approximately 99.8 percent of the world has an immediate family that can "keep them busy." Even if the individual is in college and their family is not proximal, family can still consume the individual's time.

Further, unemployment for the developed world (North America, parts of SE Asia, Europe, parts of Africa) currently sits at around ~215 million people. This creates an average unemployment rate for the developed world of 15.8% (this figure is negatively impacted by severe outliers such as Greece, Spain, and South Africa.) Of course, this still means that an overwhelming 84.2% of people able to work are working in those developed nations.

Granted, my initial statement might have lacked clarity, but to say that it is not the case that nearly every human has a family and a job to keep them busy is, I feel, woefully obtuse to the point at hand (on top of being inaccurate): Do you truly think your D&D group is functionally different than others because the members of your D&D group have jobs and families?


Perhaps this is a function of my gaming group, where most people have families and jobs to keep them busy, so we have lots of cancellations and don't get together as often as we used to. The players are eager to do some gaming, so their characters are eager to go on adventures.

[Curmudgeon]

Do you truly think your D&D group is functionally different than others because the members of your D&D group have jobs and families?
No, I think my D&D group is fundamentally different than it was before the members finished school, started jobs, got married, and had kids.

[Duke of Urrel]

… thank you magical training feat …

I am interested to know where the Magical Training feat appears. Can you or somebody tell me? I'm always interested in ways to give good things to mundane characters.

[cfalcon]

The last game I ran had a thing that could be discovered with a any of a few skill checks, and the lowest DC to solve was weaponsmithing. That was minor, however.

Overall, I'd say they have a lot less impact that I would like. The obvious benefits are being able to be slightly more self reliant, and the more subtle benefits are being able to join or have good relations with a crafting guild, but they seem to give very little benefit per skill point compared to most other skills, at the campaign level.

[Kelb_Panthera]

I am interested to know where the Magical Training feat appears. Can you or somebody tell me? I'm always interested in ways to give good things to mundane characters.

It's in player's guide to faerun. It gives any character that has it the ability to cast 3 cantrips as if the character were a wizard or sorcerer, player's choice on taking the feat. This lets characters that are otherwise not spellcasters use craft (alchemy).

Though I'm a fan of dropping the spellcasting requirement from that skill anyway. Let the non-casters have nice things.

[Talionis]

That's not the situation. The situation is the other PCs don't want the month of down time. In my games enemies advance in experience too. If the PCs spend a month not gaining XP, the enemies may have gotten enough stronger that they may re-take a village the PCs had previously freed. The rest of the world doesn't stand still when the PCs do.

I've never even remotely thought to play this way, with the exception of very long arcs with arch villains, our bad guys tend to die or some how go away. For new villains, they aren't all born the same day so some have probably been around a lot longer than our characters.

Im not saying your way is bad, just that I've never thought to play that way. Mostly we assume downtime for characters to fully heal up, train, research, and do the things that later let them level. It usually fills very little game time. But it's a crucial part of making it feel like a more real world. Even the villains would probably have other things going on in their lives.

[martixy]

Curmudgeon's thing is something that exists outside of the game world.

It's no more special than say, choosing Diablo over Planescape: Torment.
Or skipping cutscenes/using only fast travel.

It's how the gameplay he engages in is constructed. Some people just want that condensed version of the D&D experience.


Me personally, I like having some use of craft/profession skills. I have seen a few DMs that utilize then, but not a lot.

But you can do plot around them quite easily - anything can be a MacGuffin - including any object created with craft skills and NPCs can have relevant motivations.

Profession Cook - have a gourmand dragon.
Bookkeeper - Locating a particular book in the bureaucratic nightmare library from hell.
Rancher - You can probably do a better job at running the country than the king's corrupt financial advisors.

With sufficient imagination you can probably come up with something useful in each profession.

[tadkins]

Hey Kelb, I have Complete Arcane open but cannot find anything regarding those carved gem spellbooks. Lots of other examples but no mention of gems on that section titled "Alternative Spellbooks". Unless I'm looking at the wrong spot, but I can't seem to find it. I'm mainly checking because I'm really interested in that option. xD

[AtlasSniperman]

Hey Kelb, I have Complete Arcane open but cannot find anything regarding those carved gem spellbooks. Lots of other examples but no mention of gems on that section titled "Alternative Spellbooks". Unless I'm looking at the wrong spot, but I can't seem to find it. I'm mainly checking because I'm really interested in that option. xD

He may have meant simply the "Tokens" area, as it doesn't exactly define a token. I like having my Geometer's use Mahjong tiles :D

[tadkins]

He may have meant simply the "Tokens" area, as it doesn't exactly define a token. I like having my Geometer's use Mahjong tiles :D

Ah! Okay, that makes a lot more sense then. Thanks. :)

Lots of cool options here. Geometer looked really interesting. And then bones for spellbooks; a bone-collecting necromancer just sounds awesome.

[AtlasSniperman]

Ah! Okay, that makes a lot more sense then. Thanks. :)

Lots of cool options here. Geometer looked really interesting. And then bones for spellbooks; a bone-collecting necromancer just sounds awesome.

Add to that the familiar ACF for Necro's from UA.
"Hey! Minion. MINION. Screw your head on straight and get over here. I gotta prepare spells."

[tadkins]

Add to that the familiar ACF for Necro's from UA.
"Hey! Minion. MINION. Screw your head on straight and get over here. I gotta prepare spells."

Hah! That sounds amazing. xD

I would only worry that the sigil-scribed skeleton would make an attractive target, and that sending your spellbook into battle might turn out very badly.

[Sir Chuckles]

Hah! That sounds amazing. xD

I would only worry that the sigil-scribed skeleton would make an attractive target, and that sending your spellbook into battle might turn out very badly.

Awakened Halfling Skeleton Rogue. Max ranks in Hide and Move Silently. You don't send it to fight, it just hides and carries your loot.

[martixy]

Or, you know... not have it be separate from your person in any way.
Have it be your person - you could use your own body as a living spellbook.
Dr.359, p.117, Skincaster feat

I guess someone could skin you, but you have bigger problems then.

[SangoProduction]

Or, you know... not have it be separate from your person in any way.
Have it be your person - you could use your own body as a living spellbook.
Dr.359, p.117, Skincaster feat

I guess someone could skin you, but you have bigger problems then.

Is there a way to do this as a Ghost though?

[martixy]

Is there a way to do this as a Ghost though?

It does say "You use your own body as a spellbook[...]", meaning you have to have one to benefit from that feat.

[Kudaku]

Default Do craft/profession skills impact your games?

They do once we replaced them. :smallsmile:

On a more serious note, Profession: Sailor and Profession: Soldier can see quite a lot of use in some Pathfinder APs.

[SangoProduction]

It does say "You use your own body as a spellbook[...]", meaning you have to have one to benefit from that feat.

Body: the physical structure of a person or an animal

"Ghosts are people too!" They've got ectoplasm or whatever it's called.

Unless body is something defined in 3.5, it's an incredibly vague definition. ;) But, using the above definition, Demons and Angels and what not don't have bodies unless you consider them people. And yet, a lake can be a body of water. What a cruel world we live in.

[martixy]

Body: the physical structure of a person or an animal

"Ghosts are people too!" They've got ectoplasm or whatever it's called.

Unless body is something defined in 3.5, it's an incredibly vague definition. ;) But, using the above definition, Demons and Angels and what not don't have bodies unless you consider them people. And yet, a lake can be a body of water. What a cruel world we live in.

Well you could start twisting words, but it becomes so horribly silly and cheesy.
But it is an amusing idea. :smallbiggrin:

[Jeff the Green]

Or, you know... not have it be separate from your person in any way.
Have it be your person - you could use your own body as a living spellbook.
Dr.359, p.117, Skincaster feat

I guess someone could skin you, but you have bigger problems then.

You don't need a feat. In Complete Arcane or Mage there are rules for tattooing spells on yourself or someone else. It's a bit more expensive, but worth it.