What Makes 5e the Best. . .

[DixieDevil]

Is that they brought back the Flumph :smallbiggrin:

I just noticed this, and it made my day.

[Mara]

I would have no issues with a player playing as a flumph. -2 str, +1 int, +1 wis, and gain the abilities listed.

[DixieDevil]

It is my dream to one day play a Flumph Paladin.

Or even a Flumph Psion! (is that what they call the Psionic class? I haven't even checked it out yet)

[TheTeaMustFlow]

It is my dream to one day play a Flumph Paladin.

Or even a Flumph Psion! (is that what they call the Psionic class? I haven't even checked it out yet)

'Tis a Mystic, for some reason.

[Anonymouswizard]

I would have no issues with a player playing as a flumph. -2 str, +1 int, +1 wis, and gain the abilities listed.

Don't forget to add the following ability:

Soft and Cusiony: any creature that lands on a flumph takes no damage.


'Tis a Mystic, for some reason.

It's because they plan to release a new divine class, the Psychic, and have the Prophet in development as a new arcane casting option.

[Ninja_Prawn]

I, too, was extremely happy when I first skimmed through the MM and saw the flumphs.

^___^

[Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll]

I wouldn't be surprised if OotS was the reason they brought them back...

[Inevitability]

I wouldn't be surprised if OotS was the reason they brought them back...

I believe a developer was asked, and their answer amounted to 'no comment'. Interpret that any way you want.

[Regitnui]

The flavour for the flumphs is probably the best part. I love the idea of one of these things floating up to a LG PC in the underdark like a unicorn to a virgin, then apologizing for frightening everyone in this childlike, embarrassed voice. Thereafter it flumphs after the party humming happily and quietly to itself.

[TheTeaMustFlow]

The flavour for the flumphs is probably the best part. I love the idea of one of these things floating up to a LG PC in the underdark like a unicorn to a virgin, then apologizing for frightening everyone in this childlike, embarrassed voice. Thereafter it flumphs after the party humming happily and quietly to itself.

I always thought of them as having a ridiculously polite, rather posh accent. Bertie Wooster after a decade or two, or Jeeves if he wasn't a valet.

[Daishain]

'Tis a Mystic, for some reason.
One of the principle complaints about psionics is that the name doesn't sound like fantasy. I find the argument in question ridiculous, but there's not much to be done about that. Calling it mysticism from now on is just an easy way to bypass the problem.

[JAL_1138]

This Bogleech article, and Paizo's Misfit Monsters Redeemed, might have influenced current flumph fluff...

http://www.bogleech.com/dnd/flumph.html

[Regitnui]

I always thought of them as having a ridiculously polite, rather posh accent. Bertie Wooster after a decade or two, or Jeeves if he wasn't a valet.

Why can't it be both child-like and posh? Like Richie Rich caught borrowing an invention "Oh, I'm so sorry, but your dreams are just so bright. Don't hurt me."

Though the flumph does give Everton a headache; a Lawful Good aberration? In a world where the aberrations were created by or followers of the Daelkyr? Would the shapers of flesh consider Flumphs a failed experiment, which they try to banish to the surface amongst all the 'good' races that trapped them down in Khyber?

[citystar]

"Crush your enemies. See them driven before you. Hear the lamentations of their women," Conan the Barbarian (1982).

That pretty much sums up what makes 5e best for me. Still have no idea what lamentations means...

[Coidzor]

Why can't it be both child-like and posh?

Because then you get into "My Father Will Hear Of This" territory.

[Regitnui]

Because then you get into "My Father Will Hear Of This" territory.

Not brattish. Child-like in pitch and vocabulary, posh in accent, innocent in attitude.

[Anonymouswizard]

The main danger posed by flumphs is that they tend to try and hug those that are being helpful.

[NNescio]

Not brattish. Child-like in pitch and vocabulary, posh in accent, innocent in attitude.

So more Percy instead of Malfoy.

[JAL_1138]

The main danger posed by flumphs is that they tend to try and hug those that are being helpful.

As long as they don't poke you with the spikes (perhaps they retract, like a cat's claws?) and don't spray with their stench attack, where's the harm?

[Regitnui]

So more Percy instead of Malfoy.

If you mean Percy Weasley (nobody remember Richie Rich?) then yeah.

[NNescio]

If you mean Percy Weasley (nobody remember Richie Rich?) then yeah.

Mostly because Macaulay Culkin's accent wasn't that... posh? It wasn't Transatlantic (that old timey faux-RP thingy), I think it was just a neutral American accent.

Percy Weasley speaks in Received Pronunciation (that posh British accent that Transatlantic is modeled after) though. AKA the Grammar School accent.

[Regitnui]

Mostly because Macaulay Culkin's accent wasn't that... posh? It wasn't Transatlantic (that old timey faux-RP thingy), I think it was just a neutral American accent.

Percy Weasley speaks in Received Pronunciation (that posh British accent that Transatlantic is modeled after) though. AKA the Grammar School accent.

Yeah, that. Good point.

[Inevitability]

As long as they don't poke you with the spikes (perhaps they retract, like a cat's claws?) and don't spray with their stench attack, where's the harm?

There's the fact that a squid-like being that literally originated from outside of the known universe is currently pressing its pale slimy body against you. Most people I know wouldn't be comfortable with that.

[Anonymouswizard]

As long as they don't poke you with the spikes (perhaps they retract, like a cat's claws?) and don't spray with their stench attack, where's the harm?

Maybe not harmful, but at the very least annoying.


There's the fact that a squid-like being that literally originated from outside of the known universe is currently pressing its pale slimy body against you. Most people I know wouldn't be comfortable with that.

Basically this.

[JAL_1138]

Maybe not harmful, but at the very least annoying.



There's the fact that a squid-like being that literally originated from outside of the known universe is currently pressing its pale slimy body against you. Most people I know wouldn't be comfortable with that.

Nothing in their description implies they're slimy. A Dragon article on the ecology of flumphs from the 2e days pretty well says they're not.

Ok, it's a squidlike jellyfish-like being from another plane, but plenty of creatures are from other planes.

And just look at it. It's a big floaty disk of derpy-looking d'aww and it wants to be your friend. It's adorable.

[NNescio]

Nothing in their description implies they're slimy. A Dragon article on the ecology of flumphs from the 2e days pretty well says they're not.

Ok, it's a squidlike jellyfish-like being from another plane, but plenty of creatures are from other planes.

And just look at it. It's a big floaty disk of derpy-looking d'aww and it wants to be your friend. It's adorable.

Best pillows ever. And fall breakers.

[Coidzor]

Best pillows ever. And fall breakers.

One of the few living pillows that doesn't try to eat you in D&D, too.

[Anonymouswizard]

Nothing in their description implies they're slimy. A Dragon article on the ecology of flumphs from the 2e days pretty well says they're not.

Ok, it's a squidlike jellyfish-like being from another plane, but plenty of creatures are from other planes.

And just look at it. It's a big floaty disk of derpy-looking d'aww and it wants to be your friend. It's adorable.

Even if slimy it would still be completely d'aww. I just find the idea of an adventurer trying to fend off a hug from a friendly monster even more adorable, as the flumph would be so innocent and caring that it forgot that other creatures might be a bit grossed out at the concept.

I do dislike the idea of flumphs as badass though, simply because it feels weird. I can accept the occasional badass adorable flumph, but the focus should be on the adorable, with the fact it can fight being completely weird.

[JAL_1138]

Even if slimy it would still be completely d'aww. I just find the idea of an adventurer trying to fend off a hug from a friendly monster even more adorable, as the flumph would be so innocent and caring that it forgot that other creatures might be a bit grossed out at the concept.

I do dislike the idea of flumphs as badass though, simply because it feels weird. I can accept the occasional badass adorable flumph, but the focus should be on the adorable, with the fact it can fight being completely weird.

Blasto the hanar flumph Spectre Paladin...?

But yeah, their fighting capabilities have always been mostly defensive (or, in earlier editions, the spines and acid were due to being carnivorous) rather than any badassery. Other than catching small prey for lunch, they weren't keen on picking fights--the AD&D spellcasting variants ("monastic" flumphs) could be somewhat tough since they cast like clerics and could have higher HD, but generally didn't go looking for trouble.

[Forum Explorer]

As long as they don't poke you with the spikes (perhaps they retract, like a cat's claws?) and don't spray with their stench attack, where's the harm?


One of the few living pillows that doesn't try to eat you in D&D, too.

I kinda want to have a Flumph Vampire as a BBEG now. :smallbiggrin:

[Malifice]

The flavour for the flumphs is probably the best part. I love the idea of one of these things floating up to a LG PC in the underdark like a unicorn to a virgin...

... and initiative being rolled, and a violent misunderstanding ensuing.

[eastmabl]

There was a flumpf in 3x. Admittedly, it was statted up in a Dungeon adventure, but I still think that counts. Additionally, flumpfs were also statted out for 4e.

What makes 5e the best is that they made the Monster Manual 20 extra pages so they could fit in monsters like the mighty flumpf.

[Once a Fool]

Still have no idea what lamentations means...

Expressions of grief, particularly passionate ones, like wails and/or weeping.

[Malifice]

Expressions of grief, particularly passionate ones, like wails and/or weeping.

Conan likes this.

[Inevitability]

What makes 5e the best is that they made the Monster Manual 20 extra pages so they could fit in monsters like the mighty flumpf.

This is probably going to get me in trouble, but I let's not forget they used those pages for Modrons, too. Which are totally better than flumphs and are even more adorable to look at.

[RazDelacroix]

Huzzah for modrons and flumphs coming back! Quickly now! Everyone imagine having a flumph for a pillow and a monodrone for an alarm clock!

[Anonymouswizard]

So can I get my REAL tieflings back now? Not these sissy 'diet warlock' guys, but real 'my granddad slept with an eyrine' tieflings.

[eastmabl]

This is probably going to get me in trouble, but I let's not forget they used those pages for Modrons, too.

I am also glad that the modrons made it into the MM as well - although the early teaser for the DMG with the march of the modrons may have necessitated their inclusion in the MM.


Which are totally better than flumphs and are even more adorable to look at.

Blasphemer.

[theMycon]

There's the fact that a squid-like being that literally originated from outside of the known universe is currently pressing its pale slimy body against you. Most people I know wouldn't be comfortable with that.

I've dated an engineer before. I got used to it pretty quickly.

[Anonymouswizard]

I've dated an engineer before. I got used to it pretty quickly.

Be fair, we tend towards sticky more than slimy.

[Mara]

Be fair, we tend towards sticky more than slimy.

I religiously shower every day. Sometimes more than once a day if its been a messy day.

[Belac93]

Lets do a poll.
Who of the people reading this are:
a.) Engineers.
b.) Flumphs.
c.) All of the above.
Or d.) Pathfinder flumphs, the ones that are safe guarders of innocents, and more badass than normal (but not as cute).

[Gnomes2169]

E) A drow wondering why you are all spazzing out about these little critters. I mean, they make good hats and throw rugs to decorate for Lolthmas, but they aren't that cute!

[RazDelacroix]

And so it was that an image arrives to my senses. A little drow girl lost in the Underdark finds a cuddly-floaty-white friend. Together, they make their way to the surface to get away from the creepy green fire that is currently devastating dark elf city. After many decades of growing up alongside one another, a curious pair of adventurers return to uncover whatever treasures may have been lost long ago. Like a teddy-spider.

[Regitnui]

And so it was that an image arrives to my senses. A little drow girl lost in the Underdark finds a cuddly-floaty-white friend. Together, they make their way to the surface to get away from the creepy green fire that is currently devastating dark elf city. After many decades of growing up alongside one another, a curious pair of adventurers return to uncover whatever treasures may have been lost long ago. Like a teddy-spider.

Whoever would've thought that something out of the under dark would be adorable? This needs to be a webcomic.

[Ninja_Prawn]

Lets do a poll.
Who of the people reading this are:
a.) Engineers.
b.) Flumphs.
c.) All of the above.
Or d.) Pathfinder flumphs, the ones that are safe guarders of innocents, and more badass than normal (but not as cute).

Ooh, ooh, I'm an engineer!

But I'm the kind that sits in an office designing things, not the kind that gets covered in oil. Kind of like the drow of engineers?

[Anonymouswizard]

Lets do a poll.
Who of the people reading this are:
a.) Engineers.
b.) Flumphs.
c.) All of the above.
Or d.) Pathfinder flumphs, the ones that are safe guarders of innocents, and more badass than normal (but not as cute).

A1) Engineer, but still in training.

I wish I could say B, but I don't have the adorables to pull it off.

I also agree with the drow and flumph webcomic idea. It sounds completely d'aww, especially if the drow is a badass adventurer while still not having grown up fully.

[Joe the Rat]

Well someone ought to get on that then! I can't draw.

At least now they out-and-out levitate, rather than ride on a jet of air (aka farting themselves around).


One of the principle complaints about psionics is that the name doesn't sound like fantasy. I find the argument in question ridiculous, but there's not much to be done about that. Calling it mysticism from now on is just an easy way to bypass the problem.

Do you have a better argument against psionics in fantasy then?

Seriously though, the abilities lumped into psionics are very much part of the weird hoodoo crazy witch powers in fantasy - it just goes under different names. Psychic, mystic, mentalism, inner sight... ki... It's the sci-fi and superhero flavored label that throws a lot of people off (most of the rest were either burned by the old systems, or are thinking "great, another magic system to learn"). It's mostly framing and flavor, but that does matter to people.

[Anonymouswizard]

Well someone ought to get on that then! I can't draw.

I can't draw well, but if I can work out a decent plot I might give it a go.


Do you have a better argument against psionics in fantasy then?

9/10 chance of dying by Arthasian sandworm?


Seriously though, the abilities lumped into psionics are very much part of the weird hoodoo crazy witch powers in fantasy - it just goes under different names. Psychic, mystic, mentalism, inner sight... ki... It's the sci-fi and superhero flavored label that throws a lot of people off (most of the rest were either burned by the old systems, or are thinking "great, another magic system to learn"). It's mostly framing and flavor, but that does matter to people.

I never got the backlash against 'sci-fi' elements in fantasy, whereas 'sci-fi' can use fantasy elements as much as it wants (the force, psionics, biotics...). Let me pet my flumph wile riding my horse and blasting an enemy with my pyrokinesis. I shouldn't have to call it 'magic' to get the cool science trappings.

[Joe the Rat]

Given the sci-fi examples, you can see where "hyperdeveloped mind powers" becomes a stand-in for magic in "non-fantasy" settings - and you will find an audience that does not like "new-aged hokum in pseudoscience drag" in their "serious" sci-fi. Likewise, there's a fantasy audience that doesn't want flying saucers and robots in their fantasy worlds (but magic space boats and golems are A-OK). Not everybody was down with Temple of the Frog and Expedition to Barrier Peaks.

There are a lot of blurred boundaries in speculative fiction settings, and people who think sf or fantasy should be "pure" - if magic, then no aliens. Which totally ignores Lovecraft.

I would have gone Mentalist, Psychic, or maybe Adept over Mystic.

[JAL_1138]

9/10 chance of dying by Arthasian sandworm?

The other 1/10th of the 100% chance of death is "eaten by cannibal halflings."

[eastmabl]

Lets do a poll.
Who of the people reading this are:
a.) Engineers.
b.) Flumphs.
c.) All of the above.
Or d.) Pathfinder flumphs, the ones that are safe guarders of innocents, and more badass than normal (but not as cute).

a.) No.
b.) No.
c.) Still no.
d.) No.

[Ninja_Prawn]

Re: "why do people hate picnics"...

When I first read about them, I didn't like them, but I never knew why. It was just a gut feeling that they didn't belong.

Then I read this (http://theangrygm.com/ask-angry-why-do-psionics-suck/), and agreed with everything Angry was saying. I don't know how many others agree, but I think he makes some great points.

[Regitnui]

The other 1/10th of the 100% chance of death is "eaten by cannibal halflings."

Everybody loves life on Athas. :smallbiggrin:

Of course, there's a damn good reason the githyanki sealed every portal they could find to the place.

[Anonymouswizard]

Re: "why do people hate picnics"...

When I first read about them, I didn't like them, but I never knew why. It was just a gut feeling that they didn't belong.

Then I read this (http://theangrygm.com/ask-angry-why-do-psionics-suck/), and agreed with everything Angry was saying. I don't know how many others agree, but I think he makes some great points.

Re. Suspension of Disbelief:
So psionics is stupid and out of place (to some people)? So are elves, dwarves, polytheistic religions, magic and all that stuff less stupid and out of place in a medieval setting?

Re. Magic:
I like to explain how and why magic works. Does this mean I'm doing magic wrong?

Re. Psionics is the ultimate expression of the power of the human mind over the world:
Isn't that science? I thought superscience did that role rather well myself. Anyway, just as many stories have psychic powers come from being 'more in tune with the world', which sounds a lot more like submitting to it than crushing it under your mighty intellect. Psionics is more the lazy man's way of not admitting you write fantasy, or a way to limit 'magic' to 'mental' powers.

Re. It should just be called magic:
4e did something I rather like, it made the full term 'psionic magic'. Also, in several of my own settings clear distinctions are drawn between 'magic' (arcane magic) which is bad and from demons (at least that's what people believe), 'miracles' (divine magic) which are good and come from gods, and mentalism (psionics), which are weird and considered creepy and unnatural because they do not come from an outside source. Maybe TAGM can realise that some people play by different rules (also, Dark Sun, where preservers can generally pass off magic as psionics because people only know to recognise magic by the circle of ash). Also, IIRC, from 3e onwards psionics was considered to interact with magic as magic did, being affected by antimagic fields and dispel magics by default, with nontransparency being a variant.

Re. Different system:
Yeah, that's a legitimate complaint, even 4e made psionics it's own special snowflake. However, in 3.X we have: incarnum, invocations, and binding, just to name the not-hated 'different systems' type of magic I know of. I think TAGM is too hung up on that last point.

Re. Psionics doesn't add anything different:
Not strictly, but I point the blame here at caster versatility. In a game where mages couldn't cast charm person I bet the telepath class would be better received.

Re. The complexity doesn't add depth:
It adds as much depth as the core magic system, with a arguably lesser level of complexity. But if you are used to the core spellcasting system I can see you making the mistake of 'two ways to reach the same goal adds complexity instead of 'if I take two ways of reaching the same goal I add complexity'. If you stick to one subsystem per character you haven't added much complexity, but increased the depth by adding in the difficulties each subsystem brings to the representative character (or I may not really know what I mean here, but this is my view and I'll defend it).

Re. Psionics is never core:
Okay TADM, there is no such thing as the D&D world (except maybe in 4e). While kluding psionics into an existing campaign is always going to be messy, in the next game you can build the world from the ground up including the lore which places psionics as a key element (which I think only 4e tried to do to it's 'core' setting after the fact).

Re. Dark Sun is science fantasy:
hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
What was the reasoning behind that statement? That it uses psionics as a core element? That the world used to be greater than it was and now is effectively dead? (spoiler: Arthas used to be standard fantasy planet, but with no gods and psionics replacing arcane magic) I want to be given one science fiction element before I except this.
(Also, dungeon punk is now science-fantasy? It seems this term is a lot different to the version of it I use, as Ebberon just applies a lot of modern ideas to a fantasy world with scientific magic)

Re. How TAGM uses psionics:
The campaign use is great and I'd play in a game like that. Pretending to give me the option to use psionics and then saying 'you want to play a special snowflake character, you can't handle my game' means that you are not a good DM. Someone who doesn't want players using psionics should not make the psionicist class open to players and then boot me from the game when I decide I want a powered character but not a wizard or cleric.

Re. Is psionics singular or plural:
Both. Has TAGM never encountered the word SHEEP before. English words do not have to be strictly singular or plural, and so when using a word like psionics you use the case that makes the most sense. So the title could be 'Why Do Psionics Suck' or 'Why Does Psionics Suck', both scan.

There, a review by somebody who a) likes psionics (although I didn't when I first began D&D) and b) thinks that 'it's magic so you aren't allowed to understand' is plain stupid.

[JAL_1138]

Everybody loves life on Athas. :smallbiggrin:

Of course, there's a damn good reason the githyanki sealed every portal they could find to the place.

I'll give Athas this: murderhobos make sense. And not only make sense, but are a solid roleplaying choice that develops naturally from the setting.

Also, it's so much fun to have a thri-kreen, a halfling, and an elf in the same party. Well, maybe not for the elf, as the pipsqueak and the bug sit around comparing recipes...

[RazDelacroix]

*Tentatively looks up at a few of the prior posts.* Huh... This is still a thread about celebrating the return of flumpfs right? I had no idea it was going to go into the Psi-Hate/Love/Angry territory...

But, nice to see that others too want a warm and fuzzy story about a flumpf and it's little drow friend!


Now, about those recipes... Can we add chipolte bbq?

[theMycon]

Lets do a poll.
Who of the people reading this are:
a.) Engineers.
b.) Flumphs.
c.) All of the above.
Or d.) Pathfinder flumphs, the ones that are safe guarders of innocents, and more badass than normal (but not as cute).


For myself, no to all of the above. (Mathematician temporarily employed as a coder... for 6 years, since I've got an addiction to having a roof over my head & food on my table.)

I suspect The Boy is c. He's the "runs wires through ducts" type of engineer, who seems to float*, is flat as a pancake but has several long, pale, slimy, noodle-like appendages. He's also got some bizarre moral system that had to have come from some other world, but you'd probably shrug your shoulders and say he's in the vicinity of Lawful Good.

*played hockey for 15 years. He's lost all muscle, but put him on ice and the laws of physics go out the window.

[Regitnui]

I'll give Athas this: murderhobos make sense. And not only make sense, but are a solid roleplaying choice that develops naturally from the setting.

Also, it's so much fun to have a thri-kreen, a halfling, and an elf in the same party. Well, maybe not for the elf, as the pipsqueak and the bug sit around comparing recipes...

There's also a reason why elves are nomadic athletes in that setting.

Each setting has it's speciality; Planescape does weird, FR does high fantasy, Eberron does noir and intrigue, Dark Sun does "everyone dies", Dragonlance does kender (and dragon riders, i think), D20 Modern does urban fantasy and Greyhawk does kitchen sink (or "DM vs players KO match"). It's why I like Eberron so much; it treats murderhobos realistically, and everyone from the kobolds on upwards has acknowledgement as sentient beings.

As for psionics, I've never really felt strongly one way or the other. I get that they might tread on people's wizards a bit, but the soulknife was one of the coolest class concepts in 3.5, and the Eberron/Dark Sun idea of making a space for psionics helped me warm up to it. Eberron specifically; they're monsters from the plane of dreams. Of course they use mind over matter instead of "biggety-bobbety-boo" to get stuff done. Athas' utter hatred for magic also opened the doors for psionics.

It doesn't fly so well in Forgotten Realms or Dragonlance, precisely because those types of fantasy emphasize mystical magery. Planescape can pull it off, I guess. As could Spelljammer, but we don't talk about spelljammer. D20 modern... Eh...

[Baptor]

"Crush your enemies. See them driven before you. Hear the lamentations of their women," Conan the Barbarian (1982).

That pretty much sums up what makes 5e best for me. Still have no idea what lamentations means...

It's really, really, really intense crying or weeping accompanied by wails and moans of sadness. Think what would happen if every mother woke up and all their children were dead. That's a lamentation.

[Anonymouswizard]

I'll give Athas this: murderhobos make sense. And not only make sense, but are a solid roleplaying choice that develops naturally from the setting.

The difference between an Athasian murderhobo and a normal one is the lobster red skin and terrified githyanki.


Also, it's so much fun to have a thri-kreen, a halfling, and an elf in the same party. Well, maybe not for the elf, as the pipsqueak and the bug sit around comparing recipes...

Beware the halflings, for the Sunday roast is coming up and they need a centrepiece.


There's also a reason why elves are nomadic athletes in that setting.

Each setting has it's speciality; Planescape does weird, FR does high fantasy, Eberron does noir and intrigue, Dark Sun does "everyone dies", Dragonlance does kender (and dragon riders, i think), D20 Modern does urban fantasy and Greyhawk does kitchen sink (or "DM vs players KO match"). It's why I like Eberron so much; it treats murderhobos realistically, and everyone from the kobolds on upwards has acknowledgement as sentient beings.

What does it say about me that the three D&D settings I own are Planescape, Dark Sun, and Birthright? I do tend to try and discourage murderhoboing, but I just love the lore of Dark Sun so much.


As for psionics, I've never really felt strongly one way or the other. I get that they might tread on people's wizards a bit, but the soulknife was one of the coolest class concepts in 3.5, and the Eberron/Dark Sun idea of making a space for psionics helped me warm up to it. Eberron specifically; they're monsters from the plane of dreams. Of course they use mind over matter instead of "biggity-bobbety-boo" to get stuff done. Athas' utter hatred for magic also opened the doors for psionics.

It doesn't fly so well in Forgotten Realms or Dragonlance, precisely because those types of fantasy emphasize mystical magery. Planescape can pull it off, I guess. As could Spelljammer, but we don't talk about spelljammer. D20 modern... Eh...

Ah soulknives, aka 'lightsaber: the class'. In some ways I preferred the 3.0 version of them.

Planescape can pull off psionics, but it's very much a magic setting. Anybody can pull off mind over matter if they clap their hands hard enough, or with enough people together believe the universe out of existence. Sort of steps on the toes of any non-telepathy discipline.

[DixieDevil]

I can't draw, but if someone doesn't make that little girl Drow meets Flumph webcomic, I'm gonna try :smallbiggrin:

[JoeJ]

Each setting has it's speciality; Planescape does weird, FR does high fantasy, Eberron does noir and intrigue, Dark Sun does "everyone dies", Dragonlance does kender (and dragon riders, i think), D20 Modern does urban fantasy and Greyhawk does kitchen sink (or "DM vs players KO match").

And Spelljammer does Traveler, but with magic instead of science.

[Belac93]

And so it was that an image arrives to my senses. A little drow girl lost in the Underdark finds a cuddly-floaty-white friend. Together, they make their way to the surface to get away from the creepy green fire that is currently devastating dark elf city. After many decades of growing up alongside one another, a curious pair of adventurers return to uncover whatever treasures may have been lost long ago. Like a teddy-spider.

Well, I can't draw, I'll work on a story. This is the best idea I've heard since the apple farm thread.

[Gnomes2169]

And so it was that an image arrives to my senses. A little drow girl lost in the Underdark finds a cuddly-floaty-white friend. Together, they make their way to the surface to get away from the creepy green fire that is currently devastating dark elf city. After many decades of growing up alongside one another, a curious pair of adventurers return to uncover whatever treasures may have been lost long ago. Like a teddy-spider.

What... What have I spawned? I'm so sorry little flumph! D:

[Belac93]

Silvalis was lost. She couldn’t find her mother, she couldn’t find her brother, she couldn’t even hear them.
“Keep quiet and stay calm.” That’s what her mother always told her to do if she got lost. “If you are quiet, maybe monsters won’t find you.”
Her mother always had advice for all situations. She could be cruel or harsh, but she liked Silvalis very much. But now Silvalis thought she might never see her again.
After hours of searching, she believed she was even farther away from her mother than before. Silvalis sat down to cry in a cavern of mushrooms and crystals. The whole place was lit with a soft blue-green colour.
“Hello sproutling,” said a voice, “What are you doing?”
Silvalis looked up, and saw the strangest creature. It looked like a thick plate with tentacles. There were eyes poking out of the top of it, and the creature was small. She couldn’t help but think it looked rather cute, but kept in mind her mothers warning.
“All creatures of the Underdark can be dangerous. Never let your guard down.”
Silvalis backed away from the strange creature. “What are you? You look like a plate.”
“A plate? Whats that?” the odd creature had a confused look on it’s tiny face.
“A plate is a thing you eat on, like a flattened rock. Are you stupid or something? How can you not know what a plate is?”
The creature made a strange sound, almost like laughter, “Sproutling, I am a flumph, I have never seen a plate in my life, never mind eaten off of one.” the flumph, if that’s what it was, looked concerned. “Were you crying? The water coming out of your eyes?”
“Yes,” Silvalis said sadly.
“Why were you crying.”
“Because… I lost my mother, and I can’t find her!” Silvalis started crying again, reminded of her mother. The way she would comb her white hair, and how Silvalis would play with her mothers dresses, pretending she was a noble or a cleric.
“Do you want help?”
Silvalis looked up. The flumph was smiling kindly. She thought for a moment.
“Alright, you can help.” she stood up. “But first you have to tell me your name.”
“Kkliglik.”
“K-k-li-what?”
“Kkliglik. Its quite a common name.”
She laughed. “Alright K-k-whatever, lets go!”
The pair walked off, leaving the glowing cavern behind.
Not my best work, but I hope people like it.

[RazDelacroix]

What... What have I spawned? I'm so sorry little flumph! D:

Well, you have spawned an idea. And sharing that idea with friends and strangers, is what D&D is all about, no matter the edition number or subtitle to it.

[Gnomes2169]

Well, you have spawned an idea. And sharing that idea with friends and strangers, is what D&D is all about, no matter the edition number or subtitle to it.

I pity Bilbo the Flumph none the less... All he wanted to do was float around and munch on psychic residue left behind by mind flayers and the like. He didn 't ask for all this adventure and displacer mauling!

[Mara]

To me psionics is more mundane than magic. Its justification is either extraordinary abilities or supernatural mental prowess (mindflayers, ect).

In a kitchen sink setting, you don't need justification. In a more controlled setting, different kinds of magic is just needlessly complicated. But D&D already has two kinds of magic (arcane/divine). What psionics would need to be is something not covered by those concepts but equally adds to the game.

I feel that proper 5e psionics wouldn't be a main casting method. I feel that it should be a skill, background feature, subclass, or feat. I think a cool way to do high impact psionics abilities is for them to use either HP or hit dice. Like a psionic warrior could fly for 20 HP or use telekinesis as the spell for 36 HP.

[JoeJ]

In a kitchen sink setting, you don't need justification. In a more controlled setting, different kinds of magic is just needlessly complicated. But D&D already has two kinds of magic (arcane/divine). What psionics would need to be is something not covered by those concepts but equally adds to the game.

Mechanically, D&D doesn't have two kinds of magic. It has one kind of magic that can come from more than one source. All spellcasters use the same mechanic, no matter what the source of their magic is. And magic from one caster can be detected, dispelled, or countered by another caster, also regardless of source.

[Mara]

Mechanically, D&D doesn't have two kinds of magic. It has one kind of magic that can come from more than one source. All spellcasters use the same mechanic, no matter what the source of their magic is. And magic from one caster can be detected, dispelled, or countered by another caster, also regardless of source.
Sources of magic in 5e

Gods
Philosophy
Nature
Study
Bloodline
Pacts
Liberal Arts

Stats
Arcane: int or cha
Divine: wis

Psionics would then need to come from thought, emotions, soul, or body.

Mechanics of 5e magic:
Prepared spont
Spont
Pact magic

I would agree the psionics don't need different mechanics for spell effects. But their resource limitations could be different.

[Regitnui]

I feel that proper 5e psionics wouldn't be a main casting method. I feel that it should be a skill, background feature, subclass, or feat. I think a cool way to do high impact psionics abilities is for them to use either HP or hit dice. Like a psionic warrior could fly for 20 HP or use telekinesis as the spell for 36 HP.

I like that; psionics is a Cast From Hit Points version of spellcasting. Keep the same system, but have an additional and initially small HP cost for metamagic. Essentially, the harder you work, the more likely you are to get a Psychic Nosebleed or worse.

[Anonymouswizard]

Silvalis was lost. She couldn’t find her mother, she couldn’t find her brother, she couldn’t even hear them.
“Keep quiet and stay calm.” That’s what her mother always told her to do if she got lost. “If you are quiet, maybe monsters won’t find you.”
Her mother always had advice for all situations. She could be cruel or harsh, but she liked Silvalis very much. But now Silvalis thought she might never see her again.
After hours of searching, she believed she was even farther away from her mother than before. Silvalis sat down to cry in a cavern of mushrooms and crystals. The whole place was lit with a soft blue-green colour.
“Hello sproutling,” said a voice, “What are you doing?”
Silvalis looked up, and saw the strangest creature. It looked like a thick plate with tentacles. There were eyes poking out of the top of it, and the creature was small. She couldn’t help but think it looked rather cute, but kept in mind her mothers warning.
“All creatures of the Underdark can be dangerous. Never let your guard down.”
Silvalis backed away from the strange creature. “What are you? You look like a plate.”
“A plate? Whats that?” the odd creature had a confused look on it’s tiny face.
“A plate is a thing you eat on, like a flattened rock. Are you stupid or something? How can you not know what a plate is?”
The creature made a strange sound, almost like laughter, “Sproutling, I am a flumph, I have never seen a plate in my life, never mind eaten off of one.” the flumph, if that’s what it was, looked concerned. “Were you crying? The water coming out of your eyes?”
“Yes,” Silvalis said sadly.
“Why were you crying.”
“Because… I lost my mother, and I can’t find her!” Silvalis started crying again, reminded of her mother. The way she would comb her white hair, and how Silvalis would play with her mothers dresses, pretending she was a noble or a cleric.
“Do you want help?”
Silvalis looked up. The flumph was smiling kindly. She thought for a moment.
“Alright, you can help.” she stood up. “But first you have to tell me your name.”
“Kkliglik.”
“K-k-li-what?”
“Kkliglik. Its quite a common name.”
She laughed. “Alright K-k-whatever, lets go!”
The pair walked off, leaving the glowing cavern behind.
Not my best work, but I hope people like it.

That's actually fairly good. Give me a few hours and we can see if we can get a succession story going.


To me psionics is more mundane than magic. Its justification is either extraordinary abilities or supernatural mental prowess (mindflayers, ect).

In a kitchen sink setting, you don't need justification. In a more controlled setting, different kinds of magic is just needlessly complicated. But D&D already has two kinds of magic (arcane/divine). What psionics would need to be is something not covered by those concepts but equally adds to the game.

I feel that proper 5e psionics wouldn't be a main casting method. I feel that it should be a skill, background feature, subclass, or feat. I think a cool way to do high impact psionics abilities is for them to use either HP or hit dice. Like a psionic warrior could fly for 20 HP or use telekinesis as the spell for 36 HP.

I think the problem with psionics is that it's very setting dependent.

Dark Sun works well with psionics, as it's built to make psionics normal and most characters have one or two powers.
Planescape works well with psionics because I'm pretty sure there's a quasi-elemental plane of kitchen sinks somewhere. It does prefer magic though, seeing as it takes place in the afterlife a 'fantasy' explanation just fits better.
Forgotten Realms does not work well with psionics, because it already has an easily used method of magic that is well understood (relatively).
Dragonlance does not work well with psionics because it's about the supernatural clashing and states that magic works by drawing power from an outside source (gods for clerical magic and high sorcery, something about life and inanimate objects for mysticism and primal sorcery)

In a kitchen sink setting psionics can slot in, and in a setting specifically designed around them (say nobles have psionic powers which are good, while lower classes have to use evil magic) it could work really well, but you can't just take an existing setting and bolt on anything above minor psionics.


Sources of magic in 5e

Gods
Philosophy
Nature
Study
Bloodline
Pacts
Liberal Arts

Stats
Arcane: int or cha
Divine: wis

Psionics would then need to come from thought, emotions, soul, or body.

Mechanics of 5e magic:
Prepared spont
Spont
Pact magic

I would agree the psionics don't need different mechanics for spell effects. But their resource limitations could be different.

If arcane magic and divine magic use identical resource limitations, why can't psionics? I'm not a major fan of psionic power slots, preferring my Psionic Strength Points, but it could work well.

Or why don't we just have psionicists use the variant spell points system? It works like it did in previous editions, but now is transparent with magic.

Why don't we bring back the wild talent feat, giving 1 psionic power and the power points to use it once or twice?

[charcoalninja]

Well 5e magic killed 3.5 Psionics and stole it's casting mechanic anyway do in 5e there isn't nearly as much to distinguish it from normal magic like there was before.

One of the biggest draws for Paionics for me was it was a far more traditional type of magic in that the weilders of its power just used it. I'll give an example. A "sorcoress" walks into a room an ensorcles those she sees, enslaving them to her will. In D&D without Psionics the sorcoress has to wave her hands around and chant an incantation in a strong voice. It's obvious and everybody immediately knows something crazy's going on. Unless (in 3.PF) they wanted to set the spell slots on fire to use all their spells from slots 2 levels up in metamagic) or (in 5e) if they wanted to hemmorage sorcery points. With paionics there's no bibity bobbity boo, just straight up mental power which makes far more sense for the enchanter archetype.

The D&D sorcerer of PF and 3.5 and 5e should have just been the psion from the beginning.

[JoeJ]

Sources of magic in 5e

Gods
Philosophy
Nature
Study
Bloodline
Pacts
Liberal Arts

Stats
Arcane: int or cha
Divine: wis

Psionics would then need to come from thought, emotions, soul, or body.

Mechanics of 5e magic:
Prepared spont
Spont
Pact magic

I would agree the psionics don't need different mechanics for spell effects. But their resource limitations could be different.

All of the existing sources of magic cast spells using the rules in chapter 10 of the PHB, and multiclassed casters can use spell slots and spells from different classes interchangeably. Casters that don't have slots (Magic Initiate feat, for example) still use the same rules when they cast. Even 4 Element monks cast their spells the same way (and they are fluffed as manipulating the same universal flow of magic that other classes use.)

A psionic class that followed the example of monks and provided a different way of accessing the weave, with a few unique powers and the ability to cast spells psionically, would get around a lot of the problems with lack of fit. And if they also replaced the absurdly anachronistic word "psionics" with something more appropriate, I think you'd see most of the resistance go away.

[Regitnui]

A psionic class that followed the example of monks and provided a different way of accessing the weave, with a few unique powers and the ability to cast spells psionically, would get around a lot of the problems with lack of fit. And if they also replaced the absurdly anachronistic word "psionics" with something more appropriate, I think you'd see most of the resistance go away.

So "Mystics" who tap into the weave of magic using only their minds. Take enchantments, illusions and abjurations (mind control, sense fooling, defensive telekinesis), add mage hand at will/short rest (general telekinesis) and a Cast From Hit Points-based form of 'slot raising' (Psychic Nosebleeds). Like say we have a mystic cast minor image. The mystic pays 2-3 HP to bump that casting up to the next spell level, increasing it's effectiveness. Another ability, perhaps level 15 or 18, the Mystic gets the ability to concentrate on two spells at once, but must pay HP each round equal to the level of the second spell concentrated on.

Anyone willing to homebrew that?

EDIT: The reason I keep the class name "Mystic" is because the average Joe of most D&D settings has at least some idea of how magic works; you say funny words, wave your hands around and sometimes have a weird herb or talisman that glows. A mystic would just look and 'poof' magic happens. Even wizards wouldn't know how they did it; their process is 'mystical'

[Anonymouswizard]

So "Mystics" who tap into the weave of magic using only their minds. Take enchantments, illusions and abjurations (mind control, sense fooling, defensive telekinesis), add mage hand at will/short rest (general telekinesis) and a Cast From Hit Points-based form of 'slot raising' (Psychic Nosebleeds). Like say we have a mystic cast minor image. The mystic pays 2-3 HP to bump that casting up to the next spell level, increasing it's effectiveness. Another ability, perhaps level 15 or 18, the Mystic gets the ability to concentrate on two spells at once, but must pay HP each round equal to the level of the second spell concentrated on.

Anyone willing to homebrew that?

EDIT: The reason I keep the class name "Mystic" is because the average Joe of most D&D settings has at least some idea of how magic works; you say funny words, wave your hands around and sometimes have a weird herb or talisman that glows. A mystic would just look and 'poof' magic happens. Even wizards wouldn't know how they did it; their process is 'mystical'

I'm willing to have a crack at it, although it likely won't be good.

I think I'm going to use the name 'mentalist' though, because I don't like the name mystic for a class (it sounds more like a background or feat to me.

[KorvinStarmast]

The D&D sorcerer of PF and 3.5 and 5e should have just been the psion from the beginning. Uh, no, it's the same magic activated via other means.

[BladeWing81]

becuase it takes me 20 minutes to create almost any new character instead of 1+ hour from all of the other versions from the previous decade. Combat is way easier to manage and Magic items are not a requirement to make the game fun.
The only thing I would reconsider is the Challenge rating system is a little bit off, I don't care if something goes down on one hit, 8 creatures that have 1/8 challenge rating can kill a group just by the fact that there are 8 attack dices to deal with. I've seen it happen.

[charcoalninja]

Uh, no, it's the same magic activated via other means.

Sorcerer is explicitly inbornagic enacted by will alone empowered by their bloodline. A sorcerer should just USE magic. As it stands, a sorcerer instead , somehow because of their heratige somehow, without training speaks specific formulaic phrases, and makes specific arcane gestures just because. The sorcerer SHOULD have all their powers as SLAs. Bare minimum using psionics.

[Malifice]

Sorcerer is explicitly inbornagic enacted by will alone empowered by their bloodline. A sorcerer should just USE magic. As it stands, a sorcerer instead , somehow because of their heratige somehow, without training speaks specific formulaic phrases, and makes specific arcane gestures just because. The sorcerer SHOULD have all their powers as SLAs. Bare minimum using psionics.

If harry the commoner made the exact same arcane gestures and waved his hands the same way, nothing would happen.

I think you mistake 'born with the inherent ability to cast spells' with 'doing so requires less effort'

[charcoalninja]

If harry the commoner made the exact same arcane gestures and waved his hands the same way, nothing would happen.

I think you mistake 'born with the inherent ability to cast spells' with 'doing so requires less effort'

Problem is that the sorcerer doesn't learn these. Somehow the sorc just knows to gesture this way and that to make the exact same boom as a wizard in the exact same way. It's like someone was born with a degree in engineering.

So I find that jarring and silly. When based on fluff the Wizard should be doctor strange while a sorcerer is a mutant.

[Malifice]

Problem is that the sorcerer doesn't learn these. Somehow the sorc just knows to gesture this way and that to make the exact same boom as a wizard in the exact same way. It's like someone was born with a degree in engineering.

So I find that jarring and silly. When based on fluff the Wizard should be doctor strange while a sorcerer is a mutant.

The sorcerer is born with that knowledge. It just needs to be unlocked.

A wizard has to copy it. Probably from a sorcerer.

Sorcerers were probably the first casters.

[JoeJ]

Problem is that the sorcerer doesn't learn these. Somehow the sorc just knows to gesture this way and that to make the exact same boom as a wizard in the exact same way. It's like someone was born with a degree in engineering.

So I find that jarring and silly. When based on fluff the Wizard should be doctor strange while a sorcerer is a mutant.

Alternatively, they had to learn through long practice how to gesture and speak to control their power, possibly watching and/or learning from other casters. Nothing in the book says that sorcerers don't have any training, and they certainly do get better with experience which suggests that part of their ability is learned. Borrowing the mutant analogy, maybe what they have to learn is not how to release the magic but how to control it (and wild magic sorcerers never fully get there).

[EggKookoo]

Sorcerer: born with exceptional eyesight

Wizard: creates glasses

I'm not a fan of psionics mainly because they feel superfluous. I wouldn't mind them so much if they were a subclass of Sorcerer or something along those lines. Same deal with Monks. They'd be more palatable as a subclass of Rogue or Ranger or something like that.

TBH, I miss 2e's approach to subclassing.

[Fwiffo86]

Stats
Arcane: int or cha
Divine: wis


Don't forget that Paladins now use CHA to cast. It isn't "arcane" specific.



The sorcerer is born with that knowledge. It just needs to be unlocked.

A wizard has to copy it. Probably from a sorcerer.

Sorcerers were probably the first casters.

I think sorcs were the logical progression of the Spellfire mechanic... But that is just a theory, and you are most likely discussing lore.

[JAL_1138]

Problem is that the sorcerer doesn't learn these. Somehow the sorc just knows to gesture this way and that to make the exact same boom as a wizard in the exact same way. It's like someone was born with a degree in engineering.

So I find that jarring and silly. When based on fluff the Wizard should be doctor strange while a sorcerer is a mutant.


The sorcerer is a savant. The wizard learns the hard way.


My great-grandmother was a musical savant. She could learn how to play a new instrument well in a month or less. Usually less. Couldn't read music, never took lessons, just leave an instrument with her and in a couple weeks she was better at it than most people who've been taking lessons for three years. Played piano, guitar, banjo, mandolin, fiddle, harmonica, and trumpet, and could've picked up more if anybody in Podunk MiddleOfNowhere actually had any other instruments. To learn a new song on either piano or guitar, she had to hear it once or twice and then spend maybe half an hour figuring it out, and then she had it down--never had to practice it, just had it. Now, granted, she wasn't playing at truly expert level in terms of complexity or technique, but still pretty good (on guitar, a straightforward strummer for the most part; bit more technically-accomplished on piano)--and doing so with a mind-bogglingly small amount of time and effort.

When I took up the guitar, it took me months upon months just to learn the basic chords, and then a long time after that to get to where I could reliably switch from one chord to another. To learn a new song well, even after many years of playing, I have to practice it repeatedly for a long time.

Stuff that just came to her naturally in a short time, I had to take lessons and practice and learn to read tablature and learn some music theory just to be able to eventually learn how to play it.

But the two of us play an E-chord the exact same way. To play the same song on the guitar, in the same key, I'd be playing the same chords to the same rhythm with the same finger positions as she did. The same techniques with the same gear. But, all that practice has let me learn how to do things that wouldn't just come naturally to her--chords she never figured out, lead guitar parts she never learned and didn't have the speed to play, nonintuitive modalities and scales, stranger rhythms, and so forth. Because I learned how to learn, I can learn those things that wouldn't come naturally.

Sorcerers cast the same spells the same way with the same VSM components as wizards, but they're savants. They just get how to do it, without the study or effort or discipline it takes a normal person to learn the same techniques. Now, all that theory and learning and discipline means the wizard can learn more complex and intricate or weird things than the sorcerer, hence the broader spell list, but they have to learn it all the hard way.

[Mara]

Spells are not formulaic.

There are not scientific gestures and exact verbal utterances. Magic justifies itself and thus ascribes to vastly different logic than standard cause and effect.

[Regitnui]

Spells are not formulaic.

There are not scientific gestures and exact verbal utterances. Magic justifies itself and thus ascribes to vastly different logic than standard cause and effect.

Then why do wizards have spell books with arcane formulae within, and why do spells have the same material components and gestures each time they're cast? The spell description for burning hands goes as far to describe the specific gesture used to cast it.

Magic is magic, but in the hands of wizards and sorcerers, it is testable and standardized. Wizards get their powers through study and experimentation, for Olladra's sake. To go back to the music metaphor; everyone playing a guitar uses the same chords and the same basic mechanics. The guitar might have five or six strings, or be made of different wood, but the fundamental mechanics are the same. Ditto for magic; burning hands might produce green or red flames, be a gooey napalm or pure flame, but it's cast the same way and has the same effect each time it's cast. Hazards of the system.

[theMycon]

Problem is that the sorcerer doesn't learn these. Somehow the sorc just knows to gesture this way and that to make the exact same boom as a wizard in the exact same way. It's like someone was born with a degree in engineering.

So I find that jarring and silly. When based on fluff the Wizard should be doctor strange while a sorcerer is a mutant.

This is your interpretation of the fluff. As was stated above, what is explicitly said is the hand gestures and magic words work because they're a sorcerer; it's silent on whether or not a sorcerer knows the exact right hand gestures and the exact right magic words. Since there isn't exactly a consistent logic behind how magic works, you have to decide for yourself which parts you want to ignore and what you want to extrapolate.

I think it makes more sense to think that, for sorcs, they V & S components are just placebos, and it's really their own willpower forcing the laws of physics to look the other way. Since dragons, gods, other divinities are the original sorcerers, and this is explicitly how it works for them, and it might be their blood powering the sorcerer, assuming it works like that isn't much of a stretch.

In other words- It's Wizards trying to copy Sorcerers, not the other way around.

[Anonymouswizard]

Wizard: uses formulaic words and gestures to perform a task.
Sorcerer: says some words and makes a few gestures to tell magic what to do (why I think sorcerers shouldn't need material components).
Psionicist: thinks all the handwaving and shouting is so people don't realise how easy it is.

Think of it like this: the each come across a boulder in their way.
The wizard sets up his boulder moving machine and clears the path.
The sorcerer reprograms his robot butler to move it.
The psion picks up a branch and uses it as a lever.

[Vogonjeltz]

Problem is that the sorcerer doesn't learn these. Somehow the sorc just knows to gesture this way and that to make the exact same boom as a wizard in the exact same way. It's like someone was born with a degree in engineering.

So I find that jarring and silly. When based on fluff the Wizard should be doctor strange while a sorcerer is a mutant.

Where does it say the gestures or words used are the same or even similar? It may result in the same outcome, but it's not the same process according to these PHB quotes:

PHB 201: "Different character classes have distinctive ways of learning and preparing their spells, and monsters use spells in unique ways."
PHB 203: "Verbal (V) Most spells require the chanting of mystic words. The words themselves aren't the source of the spell's power"

So yeah, it doesn't matter what you're saying, it's how you do it that counts. That comes to Sorcerers naturally, Warlocks form a pact to get it right, and Wizards study.


Then why do wizards have spell books with arcane formulae within, and why do spells have the same material components and gestures each time they're cast?

Because for people for whom casting doesn't just come naturally (Wizards) you have to get the right tone, pitch, and resonance, or nothing happens. Spellbooks are just explanations of those things (along with gestures that might be necessary, or materials involved) written in a way that the Wizard can most easily comprehend.

[RazDelacroix]

*Pops into thread, reads posts, ponders.*

So does this count as a thread derailed? How did we go from celebrating flumpfs to discussing the idiosyncrasies between various systems of implementing magic? Or is this too one of the great things that makes 5th Edition?

[JAL_1138]

*Pops into thread, reads posts, ponders.*

So does this count as a thread derailed? How did we go from celebrating flumpfs to discussing the idiosyncrasies between various systems of implementing magic? Or is this too one of the great things that makes 5th Edition?

Every 5e thread that goes on long enough eventually gets derailed by caster discussions. Usually it's specifically casters-vs-martials, but still.

[Mara]

Then why do wizards have spell books with arcane formulae within, and why do spells have the same material components and gestures each time they're cast? The spell description for burning hands goes as far to describe the specific gesture used to cast it.

Magic is magic, but in the hands of wizards and sorcerers, it is testable and standardized. Wizards get their powers through study and experimentation, for Olladra's sake. To go back to the music metaphor; everyone playing a guitar uses the same chords and the same basic mechanics. The guitar might have five or six strings, or be made of different wood, but the fundamental mechanics are the same. Ditto for magic; burning hands might produce green or red flames, be a gooey napalm or pure flame, but it's cast the same way and has the same effect each time it's cast. Hazards of the system.Arcane spells do not take to a specific number of pages. The single spell book can hold infinite spells.

The magic has fixed points shared by all practitioners. But learning a spell and making it go requires learning the reason behind a self justified action. Fireballs work because they are fireballs. Internalizing that concept and actuating it in the world requires two things. 1. Being motivated to "Fireball" for it's own sake. The reason you are casting fireball is primary to "fireball". You have to learn to want that / be intrinsically motivated for it. 2. A world that allows high forms of magic. A world with nonrational elements. In D&D you are limited by slot, components (V,S,M), and other such rational steps that interlock with the irrational elements.

[Regitnui]

Arcane spells do not take to a specific number of pages. The single spell book can hold infinite spells.

The magic has fixed points shared by all practitioners. But learning a spell and making it go requires learning the reason behind a self justified action. Fireballs work because they are fireballs. Internalizing that concept and actuating it in the world requires two things. 1. Being motivated to "Fireball" for it's own sake. The reason you are casting fireball is primary to "fireball". You have to learn to want that / be intrinsically motivated for it. 2. A world that allows high forms of magic. A world with nonrational elements. In D&D you are limited by slot, components (V,S,M), and other such rational steps that interlock with the irrational elements.

None of that sounds like an objection to anything I said.

[Mara]

None of that sounds like an objection to anything I said.

You can't just wave your fingers and say the right words to cast a spell. There is an irrational portion that prevents Joe commoner the greatest mindreading mimic alive from casting 9th level spells.

[Regitnui]

You can't just wave your fingers and say the right words to cast a spell. There is an irrational portion that prevents Joe commoner the greatest mindreading mimic alive from casting 9th level spells.

Irrational doesn't mean untestable or unlearnable. While Joe can't learn 9th level spells, he could certainly learn a few useful cantrips, represented in game by a feat (AFB, not sure of name) or multiclassing. In fact, that's the entire point of the Eldritch Knight and Arcane Trickster subclasses; Fighters and Rogues learning magic that helps in their chosen profession. If a wizard is an doctor of engineering, and the sorcerer is a construction worker, the EK or AT are the hobbyist who builds a treehouse for their kids.

Magic is magic, by any definition. What I'm saying is that there's nothing inherent in an average commoner or D&D person that makes them unable to use magic. It's a matter of study, as wizardry, or making deals, as a warlock, neither of which are out of reach. Joe's never going to be a sorcerer, but he can sure as the Nine Hells become a wizard or warlock.

Wizardry, and therefore most arcane magic, is the natural gift of sorcerers studied and taught until the most reliable and powerful methods of casting are found. So a sorcerer casts [I]burning hands[/] by singing the first verse of a nursery rhyme and giving the enemy a dual finger. Doesn't make the spell unable to be used by anyone else if they really study the casting.

[charcoalninja]

In 3e where the sorcerer was introduced Spellcraft was a skill that allowed you to watch someone castig a spell and identify it based on observing the words and gestures so yes actually the rules of the game where sorcerer vs psion exists explicitly states that a sorcerer casting burning hands is making the same gestures and speaking the same words as a wizard.

Additionally since 2e magical formulae did indeed have a set amount of space. In 3e it was 1 page per spell level, so again, it was formulaeic and analygous to science.

In 5e things have changed somewhat.

I do however appreciate the music analogy as that makes me feel a lot better about the idea and the fluff of the sorc.

[Anonymouswizard]

Every 5e thread that goes on long enough eventually gets derailed by caster discussions. Usually it's specifically casters-vs-martials, but still.

I don't like these Eldritch Knight and Arcane Trickster classes. Stepping on the toes of casters they are, giving martials spells, I mean, casters don't take anything from them, who ever heard of a caster doing melee!

Wait? Why are you dragging me towards that window? No, help, I'm being defenestrated! I hope there's a flumph nearby to save me.

[Mara]

Irrational doesn't mean untestable or unlearnable. While Joe can't learn 9th level spells, he could certainly learn a few useful cantrips, represented in game by a feat (AFB, not sure of name) or multiclassing. In fact, that's the entire point of the Eldritch Knight and Arcane Trickster subclasses; Fighters and Rogues learning magic that helps in their chosen profession. If a wizard is an doctor of engineering, and the sorcerer is a construction worker, the EK or AT are the hobbyist who builds a treehouse for their kids.

Magic is magic, by any definition. What I'm saying is that there's nothing inherent in an average commoner or D&D person that makes them unable to use magic. It's a matter of study, as wizardry, or making deals, as a warlock, neither of which are out of reach. Joe's never going to be a sorcerer, but he can sure as the Nine Hells become a wizard or warlock.

Wizardry, and therefore most arcane magic, is the natural gift of sorcerers studied and taught until the most reliable and powerful methods of casting are found. So a sorcerer casts [I]burning hands[/] by singing the first verse of a nursery rhyme and giving the enemy a dual finger. Doesn't make the spell unable to be used by anyone else if they really study the casting.
Wiggling fingers and saying vocal components is the act of casting the spell. But do to the irrational elements those actions are useless unless you know the spell. An irrational worker l element is learned irrationally. Study creates good conditions for this irrational learning.

The commoner that says all the right words, wiggles the right fingers, and even thinks the right thoughts won't be able to cast the spell unless they know the spell. You need to want to cast the spell for it's own sake in addition to whatever reasons you may want to cast the spell. Without that self justifying foundation, it's not magic, it's science.

[Fwiffo86]

Arcane spells do not take to a specific number of pages. The single spell book can hold infinite spells.


What? I cannot fathom this logic. I suppose this is a product of your "how magic works" view point? I'm not saying its wrong, but it is very non-traditional. Especially given that there have been rules governing the number of pages spell books contain for years.

[Mara]

What? I cannot fathom this logic. I suppose this is a product of your "how magic works" view point? I'm not saying its wrong, but it is very non-traditional. Especially given that there have been rules governing the number of pages spell books contain for years.Not in 5e.

[Anonymouswizard]

The commoner that says all the right words, wiggles the right fingers, and even thinks the right thoughts won't be able to cast the spell unless they know the spell. You need to want to cast the spell for it's own sake in addition to whatever reasons you may want to cast the spell. Without that self justifying foundation, it's not magic, it's science.

How does Dave the commoner know the words to say, the fingers to wiggle, and the thoughts to think? Because he knows the spell. You defined knowing the spell, and then said 'but he needs to know the spell for knowing the spell to be useful'.

Maybe Dave learnt the spell from that time the wizard Beverly Bavara Crawford was showing how to do it. He might only have the mystical power to only cast it once a day (he's variant human and took magical initiate), but if he has the energy and says the right words, wiggles the right fingers, and thinks the right thoughts, he casts the spell.

Alternatively it's all self-hynosis so that the mage gets into the right frame of mind to cast the spell. Sorcerers give their own meaning to words and gestures, while wizards train for years so that specific words and gestures cause specific responses.

[Fwiffo86]

Not in 5e.

Ah, I understand. Lack of rulings is your reasoning. Noted.

[Forum Explorer]

A better way to look at it, is if a level 1 wizard gets a level 20's spell book, why can't he cast level 9 spells?

And there are many ways to answer that question.

[Mara]

but if he has the energy and says the right words, wiggles the right fingers, and thinks the right thoughts, he casts the spell.

Why would he have the energy? Part of the energy to cast the spell comes from knowing the spells irrational components. Which he does not know.

[Anonymouswizard]

Why would he have the energy? Part of the energy to cast the spell comes from knowing the spells irrational components. Which he does not know.

What? Mystical energy was just a way to say spell slots/points. Why does knowing the spell include random stuff that is indefinable and serves to get the energy? What are these 'irrational components?'

I see you ignored my other suggestion to give a stupid objection to me saying 'maybe he can only case it once per day, but once he's learnt everything he can cast it once per day'.

But now there's stuff he apparently can't learn because he isn't a special snowflake PC, despite being taught how to cast this spell (and only this spell) exactly the way wizards are.

I think the only published setting that I know off where he might have trouble casting it is Dragonlance, but even there people could cast spells without becoming a wizard

[Mara]

What? Mystical energy was just a way to say spell slots/points. Why does knowing the spell include random stuff that is indefinable and serves to get the energy? What are these 'irrational components?'

I see you ignored my other suggestion to give a stupid objection to me saying 'maybe he can only case it once per day, but once he's learnt everything he can cast it once per day'.

But now there's stuff he apparently can't learn because he isn't a special snowflake PC, despite being taught how to cast this spell (and only this spell) exactly the way wizards are.

I think the only published setting that I know off where he might have trouble casting it is Dragonlance, but even there people could cast spells without becoming a wizard
He could have learned the feat. He could be on his way to being an archmage. That all requires that he learned the irrational elements of the spell. He can learn them. This commoner just hasn't yet, since he is for the sake of example.

Magic has components that are both cause and effect at the same time. These are the irrational components that must be learned and can't be mimicked. These elements also help fuel the spell and are necessary for it to happen. That is why you need magical knowledge to perform magic not just knowledge about magic.

Sorcerers are naturally inclined to learn magic and do not need to study to set up the conditions for such learning like wizards do.

[Vogonjeltz]

You can't just wave your fingers and say the right words to cast a spell. There is an irrational portion that prevents Joe commoner the greatest mindreading mimic alive from casting 9th level spells.

Knowing the right thing to do in theory, and being able to actually do the right thing in practice are the same things that distinguish people who can read music from musicians and people who can read playbooks from Sports Stars.

Just knowing what should be done isn't enough.

[Regitnui]

He could have learned the feat. He could be on his way to being an archmage. That all requires that he learned the irrational elements of the spell. He can learn them. This commoner just hasn't yet, since he is for the sake of example.

Magic has components that are both cause and effect at the same time. These are the irrational components that must be learned and can't be mimicked. These elements also help fuel the spell and are necessary for it to happen. That is why you need magical knowledge to perform magic not just knowledge about magic.

Sorcerers are naturally inclined to learn magic and do not need to study to set up the conditions for such learning like wizards do.

I think you're objecting to the statement that "Magic is a learnable skill" without actually thinking about it. Let's go back to the music metaphor. Anyone can learn to play an instrument with varying degrees of skill. Similarly, anyone can learn magic with varying degrees of skill.

A sorcerer is a magical prodigy; needing only the bare minimum of training or teaching. That would be your virtuoso.

A wizard is someone who spent years studying to understand the way the fabric of magic twists and bends, compensating for low or nil talent with hard work. This is your bloke with a degree in musicology.

The warlock takes magic granted from an external source and changes what it does and how it works. This would be your remixing DJ.

All of them are tapping into the same well of arcane magic in different ways. They're learning how to manipulate your 'irrational component' or the fabric of magic/mana/colours in different ways. Magic in D&D is not (to borrow a phrase) "spooky action at a distance". It's refined and repeatable. It's not science. More like a 'black box' that casters can control and predict what happens, but nobody has any clue what happens between finger waggle and burning enemies.


Knowing the right thing to do in theory, and being able to actually do the right thing in practice are the same things that distinguish people who can read music from musicians and people who can read playbooks from Sports Stars.

Just knowing what should be done isn't enough.

And that's why wizards study. They learn to find the 'black box' of magic and how to use it. This is something sorcerers and warlocks have (relatively) handed to them. Everyone has the capacity to cast spells, few have the talent or diligence to turn that into a magical skill.

[Mara]

All I am saying is that there is more to knowing a spell than the verbal and somatic components. Take that as you will.

[Coidzor]

All I am saying is that there is more to knowing a spell than the verbal and somatic components. Take that as you will.

Indeed, there's also math and magical programming languages.

[Regitnui]

All I am saying is that there is more to knowing a spell than the verbal and somatic components. Take that as you will.

And I am by no means arguing. There is 'more' to magic that there is to science, but that doesn't mean that the verbal, somatic and material components cant be standardized or improved on. The Rite of Ashk Ante (Discworld) comes to mind, where they used to have to use human sacrifice, candles and bloody pentagrams, but now can be done with a wooden plank and three oz. of mouse blood. They improved on the ritual without removing the 'irrational component'.

In theory, every step in the process of me typing this for you to read on the internet can be understood and explained. That's what makes it science, even though ninety-percent of the humans on the planet don't fully understand it, including me. We can even track the development of this technology back through time; from clay tablets carried by runners through typed letters in a postal service to symbols on a screen.

However, the Speaking Stones from Eberron (for a similar 'magic device') are an application of the whispering wind spell that can only be used by certain gnomes. But all the Stone does is increase the range and reliability of the spell without altering it; whispering wind, the core 'component', can't be explained. It's a black box (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_box) (or as you put it 'irrational component') that can be used, studied and accounted for, but not explained. That makes it magic.

Or am I putting way too much thought into this? :smallconfused:

[Baptor]

This is your interpretation of the fluff. As was stated above, what is explicitly said is the hand gestures and magic words work because they're a sorcerer; it's silent on whether or not a sorcerer knows the exact right hand gestures and the exact right magic words. Since there isn't exactly a consistent logic behind how magic works, you have to decide for yourself which parts you want to ignore and what you want to extrapolate.

I think it makes more sense to think that, for sorcs, they V & S components are just placebos, and it's really their own willpower forcing the laws of physics to look the other way. Since dragons, gods, other divinities are the original sorcerers, and this is explicitly how it works for them, and it might be their blood powering the sorcerer, assuming it works like that isn't much of a stretch.

In other words- It's Wizards trying to copy Sorcerers, not the other way around.

I have to agree with this interpretation. Sorcerers are essentially normal people born with the innate magic that many monsters have. In 3.5e, this was obvious because all spellcasting monsters used Charisma as their spellcasting statistic. Since wizardry is an invention of civilization, innate spellcasting, or sorcery, came first into the world, with mundane humanoids inventing wizardy centuries (or millennia?) later in an effort to duplicate natural sorcery.