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Wyrm Ouroboros
2015-10-10, 04:14 AM
All right, so I'm using the Pathfinder system for a different world, blah blah blah. While in Hero Lab and fiddling around, I noticed an interesting little ioun stone: the ocher rhomboid, introduced in #4-12, The Refuge of Time.


This orange-colored, translucent, faceted item is an ioun stone and has the same properties. While it orbits its owner's head, that owner gains a bonus feat. This can be any feat she meets the prerequisites for.

The ocher rhomboid ioun stone radiates an evil aura at all times, and anyone who wears it (that is, causes it to orbit her head) is considered to have committed an evil act. The alignment of the one wearing the stone shifts one step toward evil. Players who wear the stone should be given the opportunity to atone for this action before the scenario's conclusion if such an alignment shift would result in their removal from the Pathfinder Society Organized Play campaign.

This ioun stone is cursed, and can't be removed by its owner or anyone else except by the methods outlined on page 536 of the Core Rulebook.

As with other ioun stones, the ocher rhomboid has a resonant power when placed inside a wayfinder. First, it turns the wayfinder into a cursed item that can only be removed in the way the stone itself can. Second, the wearer gains Knowledge (arcana) as a class skill for as long as she wears the wayfinder.

Requirements: Craft Wondrous Item, caster must be 12th level; {b}Cost{/b} 15,000 gp

ALL: #4-12: The Refuge of Time (7-11)
Activating during the game is at no cost and you gain the item and curse.

Note: Mark Moreland said on Jan 27, 2013 "you could still be good (after paying for an atonement while being unable to remove the cursed item or simply not choosing to remove it because you like the reward) and not have to keep paying for atonements."

My reaction went something like this ...
"A feat?!? Free and clear, for only 30k plus Atonement? Oh, I am SO there!!"

But then ... meh. Atonement. So I developed the topaz rhomboid ioun stone, which is (thematically) what the ocher is meant to have been, but something went wrong, it became a cursed item, yadda yadda. Therefore ...


This pale-yellow, translucent, faceted stone grants its owner a bonus feat. This can be any feat she meets the prerequisites for.

A Rhomboid is usually faceted, with a shape resembling a prism but with sides of unequal widths or angles, giving it a flattened cross-section.

These crystalline stones always float in the air and must be within 3 feet of their owner to be of any use. When a character first acquires a stone, she must hold it and then release it, whereupon it takes up a circling orbit 1d3 feet from her head. Thereafter, a stone must be grasped or netted to separate it from its owner. The owner may voluntarily seize and stow a stone (to keep it safe while she is sleeping, for example), but she loses the benefits of the stone during that time. Ioun stones have AC 24, 10 hit points, and hardness 5. The powers of each stone vary depending on its color and shape.

... I have no idea how to make you select the feats as part of the item, so the gizmo is created to add a feat slot directly to your character. Use the 'user defined' text box to indicate which feats 'belong' to the ioun stone.

Resonant Power:
Gain one Knowledge skill as a class skill.


But noooOOOoooo, that wasn't enough for me -- why have three magic items floating around your head, when you can just wear one? Though I wrote in the fluff that the original was a necklace for mages, I really came up with it for the combat fellers - the martial sash.



Inspired by the necklace of mystic mastery and typically created out of some bright-colored silk, this wide cloth belt worn from shoulder to opposite hip is subtly embroidered with scenes of martial triumph. The powerful magic in the martial sash grants three combat-related feats (chosen when the sash is created) to the wearer. These feats are always closely related, and are invariably intricately linked; complete martial style feats are the most commonly-found martial sashes (e.g. Tiger Style, Tiger Claws, Tiger Pounce), but others (weapon focus and specialization feats, two-weapon style feats, dimensional agility, etc.) are known.

The wearer must be capable of independently learning the feats enchanted into the sash, possessing all other prerequisites for the feats besides any gained by the sash itself. While sashes often possess 'bedrock' feats, some possess advanced feats, requiring the wearer to have some skill in the area already.

Note: This adds three bonus feats directly to the user. Use the user defined text box to indicate which feats 'belong' to the sash.


There are three variants of the sash, a necklace-slot necklace of mystic mastery (max one metamagic feat and two others), a chest-slot sash (above), and a belt-slot 'swashbuckler's sash' (rogue/bardic/social feats).

So here's the question I really want to ask:

How much do you think would be a fair price for each of these?

legomaster00156
2015-10-10, 09:15 AM
For a single bonus feat with no drawbacks, I'd say we're looking at around 40,000, if having one with drawbacks is 30,000. Of course, that's also because it's slotless. If instead of an Ioun stone, it were a ring or something, it would cost more along the lines of 20,000.
For the sash, I'd pay 55,000-75,000 gold for it, depending on the feats contained within. (I'm not shelling all of that out for Dodge-Mobility-Spring Attack, though.)

stack
2015-10-10, 09:41 AM
Yeah, really depends on the feat. You can scour the SRD for items that give rough equivalents to feats and they will be all over the map price wise. Having a generic feat you get to select is obviously more versatile, especially if you can choose it each time it is equipped. Pretty sure there isn't a solid guideline for feat granting items.

prufock
2015-10-10, 09:52 AM
Required Reading (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=4099.0)

Feats, in general, are worth a lot less than you're recommending here. I believe the Arms and Equipment Guide suggested 10K plus 5K per prerequisite.

Wyrm Ouroboros
2015-10-11, 02:56 AM
Required Reading (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=4099.0)

Feats, in general, are worth a lot less than you're recommending here. I believe the Arms and Equipment Guide suggested 10K plus 5K per prerequisite.

Interesting reading. The 5k per prerequisite is, however, for those items that grant the feat free and clear, no pre-req's required; these require the prereq's be present, in part because I'm working in Hero Lab and I haven't the coding chops to have the thing grant the feat free and clear.

My initial pricing had actually been 60k for the ioun stone and 300k for the belt, which (before I posted this) I toned down to 45k and 90k, since the latter takes up a space and doesn't give you the knowledge skills as class skills.

Hm. Still thinking about this.

Spore
2015-10-11, 03:01 AM
I don't want to participate in this thread but having to do an "evil deed" in return for a free feat is like being granted a wish from an evil genie. It's upsides don't outweigh the drawbacks roleplaywise. Sure you get access to all combat maneuver feats like the Brawler but I am not sure if killing your family is worth this. I could be however when your character is written this way.

AvatarVecna
2015-10-11, 03:12 AM
What price do I think is fair? Depends on the feat in question. What price do I think I can get away with? One week of time and 7900 gp: 3000 for a trip to the Otyugh Hole (gets me Iron Will), 2450 for a casting of Embrace the Dark Chaos, and 2450 for a casting of Shun the Dark Chaos.

Arbane
2015-10-11, 05:29 AM
What price do I think is fair? Depends on the feat in question. What price do I think I can get away with? One week of time and 7900 gp: 3000 for a trip to the Otyugh Hole (gets me Iron Will), 2450 for a casting of Embrace the Dark Chaos, and 2450 for a casting of Shun the Dark Chaos.

This thread is labeled Pathfinder, so that particular cheese probably isn't available.

5ColouredWalker
2015-10-11, 06:13 AM
One thing to remember about Ioun stones, PF has rules that allow you to implant them in you, preventing people from nabbing them/sundering them.

That said, your prices are still too high, outside of high level play you won't see any use, and even then only after people have bought all the other standard items, with the feat gear being very optional.

Wyrm Ouroboros
2015-10-11, 07:12 AM
I don't want to participate in this thread but having to do an "evil deed" in return for a free feat is like being granted a wish from an evil genie. It's upsides don't outweigh the drawbacks roleplaywise. Sure you get access to all combat maneuver feats like the Brawler but I am not sure if killing your family is worth this. I could be however when your character is written this way.

It doesn't make you go out and commit an evil deed in order to use it; anyone using it 'is considered to have committed an evil act', i.e. it's cursed with intense evil, and you need to a) atone (usually as per the spell) for having used it, and b) have it removed via 'remove curse'.


One thing to remember about Ioun stones, PF has rules that allow you to implant them in you, preventing people from nabbing them/sundering them.

Not implant, but I get what you mean - the wayfinders, in which you can slot one ioun stone, get an extra power out of it, and keep it on your person and safe.


That said, your prices are still too high, outside of high level play you won't see any use, and even then only after people have bought all the other standard items, with the feat gear being very optional.

Mmmm. I suppose; looking at the cash progression, 10k is a pretty serious chunk of your change, right up to 13th-15th level. I suppose I can see that. Definitely a major boon to a low-level character, though, when an extra open feat is a major benefit.

legomaster00156
2015-10-11, 08:33 AM
Not implant, but I get what you mean - the wayfinders, in which you can slot one ioun stone, get an extra power out of it, and keep it on your person and safe.
Actually...

Implanted Ioun Stones

Not all the secrets of the ioun stones lie with the Ancients. While the First Humans mastered the intrinsic powers of the stones, uncovering new attributes and binding them to devices, the Second Empire explored the interaction of ioun stones and the mind and body, and in time devised a means of implanting an ioun stone within the flesh. This process, originally believed to be irreversible, protected the ioun stone from harm and theft while still providing its full powers to the owner.

Binding a stone to a single owner is a lengthy process. To begin the ritual, the owner meditates with but a single stone in orbit around him. The body must be cleansed by fasting for a period of at least 3 days. If the fast is broken or interrupted, the process must begin anew. At the end of the fast, the owner makes a DC 20 Charisma check; taking 10 is not permitted on this check. Success indicates the stone has bonded with the owner, and may be implanted. Extending the fasting increases the chance of bonding with the stone, but the character may suffer the effects of starvation and thirst if he persists after several failures; the character gains a +1 circumstance bonus to the Charisma check for each full day past the third spent in fasting, to a maximum of +5. Failing the check means the owner must start over.

Once the owner establishes this bond with the stone, he can have it implanted in his body, which takes 1 hour. This requires a DC 25 Heal check (with a –5 penalty if the owner is the one performing the surgery) and a DC 25 Knowledge (arcana) check to succeed. Failure inflicts 1d6 points of Constitution damage and means the implantation process must start again. Success binds the stone on the surface of the owner’s skin in a location of his choice (usually the head, arm, or hand), where it becomes one with the owner’s flesh, deals him 1d2 points of Constitution damage (which he can heal naturally or with magic), and gives him the full benefits of the ioun stone. Once implanted, an ioun stone may not be sundered or targeted by effects and cannot be removed without the owner’s consent while he is alive (barring complete removal of the implanted body part).

Rumors exist of stranger, darker magics that allow spellcasters to channel spells through their implanted stones, or that cause the stones to shatter if the owner is killed, but those with any actual knowledge of these procedures are dead, hidden, or not talking.

AvatarVecna
2015-10-11, 10:43 AM
This thread is labeled Pathfinder, so that particular cheese probably isn't available.

Curses! Foiled again!

Wyrm Ouroboros
2015-10-11, 11:21 PM
Actually...

Hm. Interesting (if, I think, less than ideal). What's that from?

Jack_Simth
2015-10-11, 11:38 PM
Hm. Interesting (if, I think, less than ideal). What's that from?

You can find it Here (www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/h-l/ioun-stones#TOC-Implanted-Ioun-Stones), and I think the original comes from Pathfinder Chronicles Seekers of Secrets (as that's the only copyright notice I can find on the page), but I am not certain.

TheIronGolem
2015-10-12, 01:00 AM
Interesting reading. The 5k per prerequisite is, however, for those items that grant the feat free and clear, no pre-req's required; these require the prereq's be present, in part because I'm working in Hero Lab and I haven't the coding chops to have the thing grant the feat free and clear.


Slightly offtopic, but to do this, you want to add the tag "thing.skipprereq" to the feat you're adding. Assuming you're having the user pick a feat with a select box, the line you'd put in the eval script would be:


perform field[usrChosen1].chosen.assign[thing.skipprereq]