Combat Uses for Pact of Chain?

[Eldritch Memes]

I'm currently playing an Archfey patron pact of chain warlock in an Out of the Abyss game. So far for combat all I've been doing is making my familiar invisible, moving it to an enemy, casting hex, and blasting said enemy at advantage since every turn after the first my familiar is using the aid other action. I'm not unhappy with the consistent damage, but I was hoping to diversify a bit in terms of combat usefulness.

My invocations are Agonizing Blast and the one that gives you slotless silent image. The party consists of me(half elf warlock), a wood elf open hand monk , an elf hunter ranger (don't remember what sub race), a dwarf devotion paladin, a halfling arcane trickster, and a black dragonborn eldritch knight. My DM let the party roll stats and let us take a first level feat ( I took Resilience for the dex saving throws), I chose to use point buy. They for the most part rolled awesome stats (at least one 18, several with 20s after racial mods) so maybe it's a stat thing.

[Naanomi]

Being invisible makes it easy to position the familiar so it gets reaction attacks against moving opponents

[Blood of Gaea]

I'm currently playing an Archfey patron pact of chain warlock in an Out of the Abyss game. So far for combat all I've been doing is making my familiar invisible, moving it to an enemy, casting hex, and blasting said enemy at advantage since every turn after the first my familiar is using the aid other action. I'm not unhappy with the consistent damage, but I was hoping to diversify a bit in terms of combat usefulness.
My invocations are Agonizing Blast and the one that gives you slotless silent image. The party consists of me(half elf warlock), a wood elf open hand monk, an elf hunter ranger (don't remember what sub race), a dwarf devotion paladin, a halfling arcane trickster, and a black dragonborn eldritch knight. My DM let the party roll stats, I chose to use point buy. They for the most part rolled awesome stats (at least one 18, several with 20s after racial mods) so maybe it's a stat thing.

Cheese? True Polymorph into a rock, then True Polymorph it into a CR 9 monster.

Without cheese? It's rarely going to be very useful to attack with, however there are some other things you can do with a familiar by using non attacking options.

Offensive:
-Shove or Grapple, this is best done if someone in the party casts Enlarge on the familiar. This is a good option, because it doesn't matter if the familiar dies in melee, summon another.

Support:
-Help, if someone in the group is about to make a skill check, the help action grants advantage, this works best with a rogue in the party (Sleight of Hand/Thieves Tools in combat), when trying to intimidate enemies, or to assist a grapple/shove.

Defensive:
-Search, there are a lot of uses for a search in combat, that doesn't use your own action.
-Stabilize, nothing like keeping a party member from bleeding out while everyone is too bust to stop it. Depending on your DM, it might be able to do this on you as well, just tell it to try to stabilize you if you are dying, as a permanent order.

Familiar Action:
-A special ability your familiar has, that is not at attack, an Imp's Invisibility is an example of this.

And remember, those are all actions, when you cast a spell through your familiar it uses it's reaction

To me the real benefit from pact of the chain is having higher attributes to better do the actions it already can. Most of the time you would have it attack, you would be better off having it attempt a grapple, then cast Shocking Grasp through it or some such.

[Eldritch Memes]

Forgot to mention we're third level, my bad.

[SharkForce]

pact of the chain mostly doesn't add a lot of new combat options until high levels when you get to spam hold monster.

which is fine, really. the base warlock chassis gives you fairly solid combat options, you don't really need more options in combat for the most part.

[Blood of Gaea]

Forgot to mention we're third level, my bad.

Everything I said besides True Polymorph cheese still applies. :smallsmile:

[Eldritch Memes]

I'm considering multiclassing into sorcerer for metamagic, maybe going 2 fighter for action surge. Once I go that route though, it'll basically just be the same thing I'm doing right now, just upscaled.

[steppedonad4]

Make it an imp. Get the Darkness spell and the Devil's Sight invocation. Cast Darkness on an object that your familiar can hold. Direct the familiar to stay out of combat range of opponents whilst keeping the Darkness effect on your target. Attack with Advantage all day long.

[Blood of Gaea]

I'm considering multiclassing into sorcerer for metamagic, maybe going 2 fighter for action surge. Once I go that route though, it'll basically just be the same thing I'm doing right now, just upscaled.

2-3 Warlock is actually the ideal levels for a dip. So you could completely switch over to Sorcerer now, and you actually end up with a very good build. Easily one of the top blaster builds.

I'd honestly recommend against dipping fighter, the main benefit of action surge will be casting an extra spell, but you could just quicken instead. A Fighter dip for Warlock is better as a Bladelock, or if you just want a triple Eldritch Blast nova round (not worth it imo).

[MeeposFire]

Action surge does have an advantage of not being a bonus action. That means it stacks with quicken (though it still faces the same limitations as other uses of an action to cast spells) and using it does not prevent you from using other spells like quicken does.

[Blood of Gaea]

Action surge does have an advantage of not being a bonus action. That means it stacks with quicken (though it still faces the same limitations as other uses of an action to cast spells) and using it does not prevent you from using other spells like quicken does.

As a Warlock with Agonizing Blast, there are very few times when you will not want to cast Eldritch Blast. The quicken can then tack on another Eldritch Blast, or a spell of choice. It also allows all the other meta magics, which can be very useful.

And while you could Action Surge and Quicken, and get a total of 2 eldritch blasts + 1 more spell, I don't think it's worth 2 levels. If you compare it to only getting 15 instead of 17 Sorcerer, you lose your 9th level spell slot(WISH), that's a big deal.

[Corran]

As far as I can think, the main benefit (besides if you are just aiming for a good nova) to involve fighter into a warlock/sorcerer build, would be if you'd start as a fighter (for the proficiencies) and then take warlock and sorcerer levels for some good at will damage, rechargable spell slots on short rest and some extremelly nice defensive spells (like shield, blur - protection from evil works better than blur against undead- and mirror image). Those spells can do wonders for a char with an already good AC (20 with plate and shield, 21 with defense fighting style). So something like Fighter2/Warlock2(or 3)/SorcererX would tank exceptionally well, do decent at-will damage with EB and nova like hell (action surgre, quicken spell).

If you dont care about tanking a lot though, or if you didnt take fighter as your 1st level, I think dipping 2 levels in fighter isn't really worth it. Action surge is good, but more and higher level spell slots are even better. Just my opinion though.

[Eldritch Memes]

The reason I'm considering going for action surge would be for triple EB plus hex, which at 17th (assuming I've dipped fighter by then) would be 12d10+12d6+60 single target damage on nova. I don't know how high level we'll get, but I know that OoA takes us to 15 and that it's a 2 book adventure, so I'm trying to avoid lv 20 builds.

[Corran]

So action surge is augmenting your nova damage roughly by another 1/2. You get one hexed EB from your normal action, one more from the quicken spell, and one last one from action surge. It's good damage. But it is only once per short rest. Yeah, your big nova round (with action surge that is, because you will be able to cast quickened spell more than once) will be fun. It certainly will be quite a joy to roll all that dice.

But, always remember that 2 levels in fighter will put your character 2 levels behind in your primary spellcasting class, which is a big deal. Have a look at higher level spells and make your peace with delaying by 2 levels to get them before making the decision to take those 2 fighter levels.

In the end, if you dont care for superoptimizing your character, do what looks to be more fun for you, if it is having better spells better avoid the fighter levels, if it is rolling more damage dice on the nova round, sure, go for it!

[Naanomi]

I did the sorcerer/warlock/fighter/assassin 'eldritch sniper' and although it didn't have a lot of spell power beyond really good eldritch blasting but it was a lot of fun

[Blood of Gaea]

OoA takes us to 15 and that it's a 2 book adventure, so I'm trying to avoid lv 20 builds.

3 Warlock/X Sorcerer will be strong from level 1-20.

[Malifice]

Il confused how the familiar is still alive! I'm assuming your enemies find it flying into their faces every round more than a little annoying. Does it get swatted out of the sky often?

[Eldritch Memes]

Il confused how the familiar is still alive! I'm assuming your enemies find it flying into their faces every round more than a little annoying. Does it get swatted out of the sky often?

The invisibility that most of the chain familiars get is helpful, but a few sessions ago, my sprite got eaten by a kua toa cultist! Thankfully my DM doesn't care much about cheaper material components so I just resummoned it the next session.

[Malifice]

The invisibility that most of the chain familiars get is helpful, but a few sessions ago, my sprite got eaten by a kua toa cultist! Thankfully my DM doesn't care much about cheaper material components so I just resummoned it the next session.

Obviously the enemy knows where it is (it's flying into his face distracting it!) so it's a simple swat out of the air (with disadvantage). Only 10 gold a pop to bring back though.

[Blood of Gaea]

Obviously the enemy knows where it is (it's flying into his face distracting it!) so it's a simple swat out of the air (with disadvantage). Only 10 gold a pop to bring back though.

That still took up an Action for the creature, and that extra round can be encounter ending.

Also, have it use it's Action to Help someone do a Grapple or Shove(Advantage on Athletics check), yes it can do that. And is more likely to make a difference. A Grapple or Shove also only takes 1 attack out of a multi attack, so it's a good idea for the people in melee with STR to do it anyways.

[Ardantis]

Not to be too off topic, but thank you for providing an anecdote of how a chain familiar works in practice (with the familiar being somewhat expendable, I mean). I've never played one myself, and with all the theorycrafting bouncing around it was hard to find actual play experience for what I believe is a slightly rarer subclass.

[Malifice]

The Familiar makes your DM cry in other ways.

An invisible scout that can adopt spider form, has opposeable thumbs, and can fly?

Replaceable on a short rest for 10gp?

Good lord. The dungeon scouting potential is huge.

[Naanomi]

Not a combat use, but do note the Sprite has the only alignment detecting ability in the game. Alignment is a fickle tool; but when looking for the assassin hidden in the church-of-light and being able to say definitively 'yo that dude is the only capital-E-Evil in the room' doesn't hurt

[JoeJ]

The Familiar makes your DM cry in other ways.

An invisible scout that can adopt spider form, has opposeable thumbs, and can fly?

Replaceable on a short rest for 10gp?

Good lord. The dungeon scouting potential is huge.

Cry? Far from it. It lets me create situations where good recon means the difference between success and failure. And have villains use their familiars to scout the party. And have intelligent villains take measures to prevent scouting via familiar, requiring great player ingenuity to overcome.

[Eldritch Memes]

2-3 Warlock is actually the ideal levels for a dip. So you could completely switch over to Sorcerer now, and you actually end up with a very good build. Easily one of the top blaster builds.

I'd honestly recommend against dipping fighter, the main benefit of action surge will be casting an extra spell, but you could just quicken instead. A Fighter dip for Warlock is better as a Bladelock, or if you just want a triple Eldritch Blast nova round (not worth it imo).

I've decided that I will go straight sorlock after all. If I MC now though, I miss out on that 4th level ASI, which I definitely need so I can catch up to my over statted party. That 9th level spell does sound nice though...

[Blood of Gaea]

I've decided that I will go straight sorlock after all. If I MC now though, I miss out on that 4th level ASI, which I definitely need so I can catch up to my over statted party. That 9th level spell does sound nice though...

Could you tell me what your stats are right now? If you know for sure your campaign will not go to level 20, go ahead and grab the 4th level ASI.

[Eldritch Memes]

My stats are
STR 10
DEX 15
CON 13
INT 10
WIS 12
CHA 17
I'll ask my DM when next possible if he plans on taking this to 20.

[bid]

My stats are
STR 10
DEX 15
CON 13
INT 10
WIS 12
CHA 17
I'll ask my DM when next possible if he plans on taking this to 20.
Youch, so many odds!

First, it doesn't seem to fit : 10 13+1+1 12+1 10 12 15+2 = 26 points. The easy solution is Con14.

Second, you should have gone 10 16 14 10 12 16 which would have made them all even with an easy Cha+2 ASI whenever you need it. As it stands you almost have to do Dex+1/Cha+1 to fix that.

[Blood of Gaea]

My stats are
STR 10
DEX 15
CON 13
INT 10
WIS 12
CHA 17
I'll ask my DM when next possible if he plans on taking this to 20.

I recommend to put +1 in CHA and CON on your next ASI. Then a +2 CHA.

After that get Moderately Armored to get you to 16 DEX, and pick up some armor and a shield for some AC.

After that, go for Warcaster.

That will use up all of the 4 ASI you'll get as a 3 Warlock/17 Sorcerer.


Alternatively, ask your DM if he will allow you to change your Resilient feat into CON. Then instead of Moderately Armored, get War Caster, then Elemental Adept (fire).

[Corran]

I recommend to put +1 in CHA and CON on your next ASI. Then a +2 CHA.

After that get Moderately Armored to get you to 16 DEX, and pick up some armor and a shield for some AC.

After that, go for Warcaster.

That will use up all of the 4 ASI you'll get as a 3 Warlock/17 Sorcerer.


Alternatively, ask your DM if he will allow you to change your Resilient feat into CON. Then instead of Moderately Armored, get War Caster, then Elemental Adept (fire).
How about he just puts +1 in CHA and DEX on his next ASI and then get resilient(con)? Or the other way around (picking first resilient). That way he could avoid taking the warcaster feat. Or does polymorph play a huge part in this build so warcaster is a must-take?

[bid]

How about he just puts +1 in CHA and DEX on his next ASI and then get resilient(con)?
Resilient (Dex) was already taken.
dixit: "let us take a first level feat ( I took Resilience for the dex saving throws)"

[Corran]

Resilient (Dex) was already taken.
dixit: "let us take a first level feat ( I took Resilience for the dex saving throws)"
No, I mean for when he levels up enough.

[Blood of Gaea]

How about he just puts +1 in CHA and DEX on his next ASI and then get resilient(con)? Or the other way around (picking first resilient). That way he could avoid taking the warcaster feat. Or does polymorph play a huge part in this build so warcaster is a must-take?


He already has Resilience, and you can only take a perk once, unless it says otherwise in the perk itself.


My DM let the party roll stats and let us take a first level feat ( I took Resilience for the dex saving throws)


War Caster is important because he can Twin Haste or Polymorph, and that is a Big deal. And you really don't want to lose your Concentration saves on those, especially Haste.

[Corran]

He already has Resilience. Can he not take it again, but for a different ability?





War Caster is important because he can Twin Haste or Polymorph, and that is a Big deal. You really want to not lose your Concentration saves on those, especially Haste. Oh, I see. I guess warcaster is a must then if he is to polymorph himself. Does warcaster affect in any way the saves of the second target of the polymorph/haste spell?

[MeeposFire]

Can he not take it again, but for a different ability?






No by RAW. You can only take a feat once even if it comes in multiple flavors. You can have one ice cream not you can have one vanilla and then one chocolate etc.

Of course some DMs may decide to allow it anyway.

[SharkForce]

Can he not take it again, but for a different ability?




Oh, I see. I guess warcaster is a must then if he is to polymorph himself. Does warcaster affect in any way the saves of the second target of the polymorph/haste spell?

warcaster doesn't help with polymorph on yourself. polymorph makes you lose your own game statistics, including feats.

that said, polymorph is only really an amazing buff for a short period of time, and haste is never really as amazing as most people thing it is. it is one of the better buffs in the game, but even twinned, i'd rather have a web or hypnotic pattern in play (getting one extra attack on two people is rarely as good as denying a significant portion of your enemies the ability to act), or banish a crucial enemy.

[Blood of Gaea]

Can he not take it again, but for a different ability?

Nope, I edited my post to clarify.





Oh, I see. I guess warcaster is a must then if he is to polymorph himself. Does warcaster affect in any way the saves of the second target of the polymorph/haste spell?

You don't Polymorph or Haste yourself. You caste Polymorph on Tanks/DPS before long battle's or when you know a tough one is coming up soon. Since they don't lose any of their actual health, it saves the healer some spells, even better if you don't have a healer.

Haste is for again buffing your Tanks/DPS for really tough enemies, especially ones you know will have good saves, like a dragon or a lich.

Control spells should hopefully be left to the Wizard, because it's really not what a Sorcerer is good at.

Also pro-tip, when fighting a very large number of enemies with low saves, turn someone into a Medusa, everyone that can see her has to roll vs. petrify, or look away and become blind.

[SharkForce]

Nope, I edited my post to clarify.






You don't Polymorph or Haste yourself. You caste Polymorph on Tanks/DPS before long battle's or when you know a tough one is coming up soon. Since they don't lose any of their actual health, it saves the healer some spells, even better if you don't have a healer.

Haste is for again buffing your Tanks/DPS for really tough enemies, especially ones you know will have good saves, like a dragon or a lich.

Control spells should hopefully be left to the Wizard, because it's really not what a Sorcerer is good at.

Also pro-tip, when fighting a very large number of enemies with low saves, turn someone into a Medusa, everyone that can see her has to roll vs. petrify, or look away and become blind.

sorcerers are perfectly fine at spells with saving throws. in certain scenarios, even better, really. careful web can be quite good, for example. twin phantasmal force is the only way short of true polymorph for a PC to access multi-target int-save spells. sorcerers can combine the use of eyebite or sunbeam (both of which offer some form of control) with quickened full-blown spells that complement them (for the sake of argument, a bestow curse spell). wild magic origin sorcerers have one of only a very few ways in the game to reduce a target's saving throw, and get to apply it as a reaction after finding out whether the target made the save. all sorcerers have access to heighten, which while it is expensive and has limited value (impacting only a single saving throw from a single creature) is also one of only a very few ways to alter an enemy's saving throw chance.

they don't have quite as many options as wizards on their spell list, for some reason. and they have a painfully tiny number of spells known. but still, they are perfectly capable of going the control route. you just have to make the choices that lead to it.

[MaxWilson]

Offensive:
-Shove or Grapple, this is best done if someone in the party casts Enlarge on the familiar. This is a good option, because it doesn't matter if the familiar dies in melee, summon another.

Or, hey, you were going to Hex the enemy anyway, might as well Hex its Strength (Athletics) checks.

Although I would not, as a DM, allow your familiar to grapple or shove, since it can't attack.

[Blood of Gaea]

sorcerers are perfectly fine at spells with saving throws. in certain scenarios, even better, really. careful web can be quite good, for example. twin phantasmal force is the only way short of true polymorph for a PC to access multi-target int-save spells. sorcerers can combine the use of eyebite or sunbeam (both of which offer some form of control) with quickened full-blown spells that complement them (for the sake of argument, a bestow curse spell). wild magic origin sorcerers have one of only a very few ways in the game to reduce a target's saving throw, and get to apply it as a reaction after finding out whether the target made the save. all sorcerers have access to heighten, which while it is expensive and has limited value (impacting only a single saving throw from a single creature) is also one of only a very few ways to alter an enemy's saving throw chance.

they don't have quite as many options as wizards on their spell list, for some reason. and they have a painfully tiny number of spells known. but still, they are perfectly capable of going the control route. you just have to make the choices that lead to it.

Can a sorcerer debuff? Yeah sure, but you are wasting spells known. A sorcerer (even more so if Warlock too) is amazing at blasting, if you want control, try battle master fighter, Illusion Wizard, maybe even Lore Bard.

I'm not saying they shouldn't have 1 or 2 good debuff/control spells known, but that is not the strength of this kind of build.

You battlefield control has a good strategy: make it no longer a battlefield.

[SharkForce]

sorcerers really aren't that amazing at blasting. they have a pretty solid single-target burst thanks to quicken, but so does a fighter. or a paladin. or an assassin rogue.

and to pull off that burst generally requires 1-2 spells known. one of which is generally a cantrip.

when it comes to AoE, they aren't really dramatically better at, say, fireball, than anyone else who has fireball. in fact, they're probably worse than an evoker.

[Blood of Gaea]

sorcerers really aren't that amazing at blasting. they have a pretty solid single-target burst thanks to quicken, but so does a fighter. or a paladin. or an assassin rogue.

and to pull off that burst generally requires 1-2 spells known. one of which is generally a cantrip.

when it comes to AoE, they aren't really dramatically better at, say, fireball, than anyone else who has fireball. in fact, they're probably worse than an evoker.

Your forgetting the Eldritch Blast that is coming out every time they quicken a spell. Which at 20 CHA is an average 10.5 damage per ray. Remember this is 3 Warlock/X Sorcerer, not X Sorcerer.


Evocation Wizard:
-Sculpt Spell: Hurt your team less when you drop a fireball on them.
-Potent Cantrip: Useful, but you don't use cantrips unless out of blasting spells.
-Empowered Evocation: Doesn't scale well, works better with low damage spells then high ones.
-Overchannel: Main reason to be an Evoker.
-Arcane Recovery: Getting more spells per day is always good.
-Spell Mastery: Not good to spend on blasting spells most of the time.


Warlock/Sorcerer:
-Patron: Archfey or Great Old One give you good non-blasting spells.
-Pact Magic: Essentially 6 Sorcery points per short rest.
-Invocations: Agonizing Blast is an amazing DPS boost, and Book of Ancient Secrets or Misty Visions adds great utility.
-Boon: Chain and Tome both add a lot to this class, Tome is probably better.
-Metamagic: Twin essentially lets you concentrate on the same spell twice. Quicken lets you tack on an Eldritch Blast to any other spell. The others are just gravy.
-Draconic Resilience: Cool but Warlock gives light armor anyways.
-Elemental Affinity: This and Agonizing Blast are straight better then Empowered Evocation.
-Dragon Wings: You can fly, and no concentration, so feel free to keep up that double Haste/Polymorph.


So looking at those, how exactly is an Evocation Wizard better?...

[SharkForce]

Your forgetting the Eldritch Blast that is coming out every time they quicken a spell. Which at 20 CHA is an average 10.5 damage per ray. Remember this is 3 Warlock/X Sorcerer, not X Sorcerer.


Evocation Wizard:
-Sculpt Spell: Hurt your team less when you drop a fireball on them.
-Potent Cantrip: Useful, but you don't use cantrips unless out of blasting spells.
-Empowered Evocation: Doesn't scale well, works better with low damage spells then high ones.
-Overchannel: Main reason to be an Evoker.
-Arcane Recovery: Getting more spells per day is always good.
-Spell Mastery: Not good to spend on blasting spells most of the time.


Warlock/Sorcerer:
-Patron: Archfey or Great Old One give you good non-blasting spells.
-Pact Magic: Essentially 6 Sorcery points per short rest.
-Invocations: Agonizing Blast is an amazing DPS boost, and Book of Ancient Secrets or Misty Visions adds great utility.
-Boon: Chain and Tome both add a lot to this class, Tome is probably better.
-Metamagic: Twin essentially lets you concentrate on the same spell twice. Quicken lets you tack on an Eldritch Blast to any other spell. The others are just gravy.
-Draconic Resilience: Cool but Warlock gives light armor anyways.
-Elemental Affinity: This and Agonizing Blast are straight better then Empowered Evocation.
-Dragon Wings: You can fly, and no concentration, so feel free to keep up that double Haste/Polymorph.


So looking at those, how exactly is an Evocation Wizard better?...

adding on single-target damage to a nuke is nice and all, but it isn't really dramatically improving your nuke.

being 3 levels ahead on spell selection is pretty major (at level 5 the wizard is throwing fireball while the sorcerer is throwing burning hands or shatter and still doesn't have any metamagic at all. at level 8, the sorcerer finally gets fireball but still doesn't have any added damage to it, the wizard has level 4 spell slots and more importantly more level 3 spell slots and can afford to choose between whatever element is appropriate, including some non-elemental options like evard's tentacles... being able to choose whatever element you want when you want it is pretty major, and to even compete a sorcerer has to spend a feat on elemental adept and is still helpless against immunity). having total freedom to switch around your spell list whenever blasting is not ideal is likewise pretty major; an evocation wizard *can* nuke, but if you suddenly need to subdue a crowd of peasants, the evocation wizard is perfectly capable of just choosing different spells any day they expect that to happen (sleep, for example)... and of course, being able to drop evocation spells on your party without hitting them is amazing. *sorcerers* hurt their team less. evokers don't hurt their team at all.

i do think it is perfectly reasonable for any sorcerer to grab some blasting spells. fireball is basically so good you can't really ignore it. sunbeam is an amazing spell to pair with quicken as well, and while it has a CC element it is primarily blasting.

level 1-2 spells taking the place of cantrips is an excellent ability (hmmm... let's see, which is a better option for an AoE nuker: at-will shatter, or getting an extra eldritch blast?), and the capstone is an extra fireball and lightning bolt per short rest if you want.

also, several of your points have absolutely nothing to do with nuking. neither chain nor tome warlock improve a sorcerer in nuking (improve the sorcerer in general, sure, but that doesn't come without cost either). patron spells being good for non-blasting roles does not make you a better nuker, and are we seriously going to pretend this is even remotely close to competing with the spell list of the wizard? twin buffs likewise are not going to make you a better blaster.

sorcerers can be quite good at single-target burst, especially with a warlock dip. they are not amazing AoE nukers, and the kinds of tricks they can pull off as AoE nukers are generally as good or better with control. *nobody* else can compete with throwing down a web that is completely safe for your own party. *nobody* else can make it so your entire party can sit in a stinking cloud. *nobody* else gets to apply -1d4 to an enemy saving throw once per round.

the sorcerer is severely limited by their small spell list and their tiny spells known. but at the very least, the things that you can do as a control sorcerer are things that nobody else can duplicate, and they are powerful useful options.

i would never recommend grabbing more than maybe 2-3 nuker spells on a sorcerer (fireball, shatter, scorching ray being my recommendations. if you *really* want to be a nuker, maybe meteor swarm, but you can do so much more with a wish in that slot).

sorcerers can be about as good at dealing burst damage as other classes, and about as good at AoE nukes as other classes, by spending more resources than most of those other classes. that's nice. it's useful. and it totally isn't remotely worth sacrificing the other things a sorcerer can do in the slightest.

[Blood of Gaea]

When I look at a Blaster (AKA spellcaster that deals DPS), what I look for is damage output.

Wizards are great as Evocationers, they lay down damage, avoid hitting their party, and have lots of ability to lay out good to great control, some of which also avoid the party. I was not contesting this.

What I'm saying, is that in personal experience, having two melee damage dealers Hasted, while dumping out Eldritch Blasts (at level four doing likely an average of 9 damage, 18 at 5th), while quickening another spell (or Eldritch Blast again) kills faster.

So a Wizard can lay out a lot of group damage, weakening it for the party, then laying out another strong debuff or control spell to further weaken the enemies, and it's good.

The Warlock/Sorcerer is a DPS character, like a Rogue Assassin, or Berserker Barbarian. They are not the same as an Evocation Wizard, they are best at focus firing things to death.


I don't mind you having a different view on how the classes work or best play, that likely just means good things for the flexibility of the classes. But let's not continue to argue on something we clearly don't agree on.

[Malifice]

Im pretty confident that peeps advocating a 2 level Warlock dip havent played a caster through.

At 5th level when your full casters have pumped thier casting stat by 2 and are tossing around fireballs, fly and counterspell and youre still popping eldritch blast and have only just learnt scorching ray... it's really noticeable.

[SharkForce]

twin haste is really not that good.

i mean, it's among the best of the buffs, but that's the best of a very small pile. it is at best questionable whether it is the best way to support your team's damage with a concentration effect... web means that your targets may very well be at disadvantage to hit you (generally better than a +2 AC to a single target), unable to move (at least equivalent in value to the ability to dash as a bonus action), and are attacked with advantage (likely to add a similar amount of damage over multiple attacks from multiple party members as haste). and it uses a lower level spell and fewer resources.

and if we're talking about single-target burst damage, fighters are perfectly capable of doing that, and again, spend fewer resources to do so.

i suppose it is better than other caster's burst damage, but as noted, it carries an extremely large cost. if all you want is single-target burst, there are better options.

[bid]

At 5th level when your full casters have pumped thier casting stat by 2 and are tossing around fireballs, fly and counterspell and youre still popping eldritch blast and have only just learnt scorching ray... it's really noticeable.
But after level 5, is it still an issue?

And how important is the RP side of eldritch invocations?

[SharkForce]

But after level 5, is it still an issue?

And how important is the RP side of eldritch invocations?

at level 7, the 2 splash means you have finally got fireball and a pair of level 3 slots to last you the whole day.

at level 7, a single class sorcerer has 3 level 3 slots and a level 4 slot, and their level 6 ability (either +cha to damage or the ability to modify enemy saving throws, which as noted earlier is *extremely* rare).

i'd say that's still pretty significant.

[Malifice]

But after level 5, is it still an issue?

Yeah. The Sorcerer having 4ths when the Sorlock is still lobbing 3rds. Is also hitting those feats earlier (which means the Sorc is hitting with higher save DC's and lobbing more potent spells).

Its a huge deal.

[Eldritch Memes]

Im pretty confident that peeps advocating a 2 level Warlock dip havent played a caster through.

At 5th level when your full casters have pumped thier casting stat by 2 and are tossing around fireballs, fly and counterspell and youre still popping eldritch blast and have only just learnt scorching ray... it's really noticeable.

If there were other full casters in this game that would be painfully true, but since I am in a party with 2 half casters, 2 third casters and a monk, I'll still be relevant as a caster regardless of full classing warlock/sorcerer or multiclassing.

On a different matter, I figured out how to justify multiclassing into dragon sorcerer at this level. My character was formerly a subject of a tyrannical wizard lord who ran various nefarious experiments on his captive workers. After a particularly nasty procedure, he managed to flee into the nearby forest where he stumbled upon his then future patron, who wanted the wizard dead for his own reasons. Warlock makes deal, goes back and distracts wizard with experiment gone conveniently awry which knocks the wizard out, kills him, then flees into the nearby town.

I was thinking that the end goal of the wizard was to instill magic into the nonmagical via dragon blood/marrow. My character was the first one to survive the procedure but the effects didn't kick in until this point in the campaign, which is only maybe 2 months since he bound himself to the archfey. Thoughts on this?

[bid]

Yeah. The Sorcerer having 4ths when the Sorlock is still lobbing 3rds.
You mean things like banishment and greater invisibility? Okay.

[Malifice]

You mean things like banishment and greater invisibility? Okay.

I was thinking more along the lines of polymorph.

Two whole levels behind is massive in 5e.

To argue against myself, I would prefer to do it as a Warlock 3/ Sorc 17. I could get more use spamming 2 x 2nd level slots per short rest (or using them as a metamagic battery) that could make the trade off for higher level spells almost worth it. The Chain lock Familiar would be pretty useful too.

[Blood of Gaea]

I was thinking more along the lines of polymorph.

Two whole levels behind is massive in 5e.

To argue against myself, I would prefer to do it as a Warlock 3/ Sorc 17. I could get more use spamming 2 x 2nd level slots per short rest (or using them as a metamagic battery) that could make the trade off for higher level spells almost worth it. The Chain lock Familiar would be pretty useful too.

I think Pact of the Tome, would be better, since you get the invocation for ritual casting from all spell pools. Does quite a lot to make up for a Sorcerers limited amount of spells, it also makes Thematic sense for something a Sorcerer would bargain for.

[Malifice]

I think Pact of the Tome, would be better, since you get the invocation for ritual casting from all spell pools.

Yeah, but if I recall, the rituals are keyed to your warlock levels arent they? I'm AFB at the moment.


Does quite a lot to make up for a Sorcerers limited amount of spells, it also makes Thematic sense for something a Sorcerer would bargain for.

That familiar can be insanely good though. An invisible scout with opposeable thumbs can make light work of so many challenges, and be so damn useful.

[JoeJ]

That familiar can be insanely good though. An invisible scout with opposeable thumbs can make light work of so many challenges, and be so damn useful.

And if you fluff the familiar as something incredibly overly cute, a young teen archfey chain pact warlock makes a decent anime-style magical girl.

[SharkForce]

If there were other full casters in this game that would be painfully true, but since I am in a party with 2 half casters, 2 third casters and a monk, I'll still be relevant as a caster regardless of full classing warlock/sorcerer or multiclassing.

why would the presence or absence of other casters be the deciding factor? unless the enemies spontaneously change the moment you add more spellcasters to be somehow more vulnerable to higher level spells, your performance will be changed regardless of the number of casters in the party.

you may not be able to compare it directly side by side within the party, but there will be a difference in how many times you can use fireball and your ability to access higher level spells at all whether there is another caster or not.

[Malifice]

pact of the chain mostly doesn't add a lot of new combat options until high levels when you get to spam hold monster.

The utility of that little invisible imp is so often missed by so many.

It's trivialised so many investigation and exploration encounters I've lost track.

[SharkForce]

The utility of that little invisible imp is so often missed by so many.

It's trivialised so many investigation and exploration encounters I've lost track.

he didn't say the pact doesn't add options. he said it doesn't add many *combat* options.

[Malifice]

he didn't say the pact doesn't add options. he said it doesn't add many *combat* options.

Aside from advantage via the help action.

Better than blade and tome for combat applications for the blast lock.

[Eldritch Memes]

why would the presence or absence of other casters be the deciding factor? unless the enemies spontaneously change the moment you add more spellcasters to be somehow more vulnerable to higher level spells, your performance will be changed regardless of the number of casters in the party.

you may not be able to compare it directly side by side within the party, but there will be a difference in how many times you can use fireball and your ability to access higher level spells at all whether there is another caster or not.

It seems to me like you're pretty ardent on me playing a full sorcerer, which at this point in this game would only happen if this character died and I had to reroll. Being a feylock, I do not get fireball period without multiclassing into something else. True, I delay my access to higher level spells, but this is a real game, not a theory crafting experiment.

Also, yes, enemies can spontaneously change if an experienced DM such as the one I have sees how a fight will turn out by round 3/4, they can tweak the encounter one way or another on the fly if they feel the need to, which they have proven themselves to do.

[SharkForce]

i have no particular desire for you to play a single-classed sorcerer.

i'm merely pointing out the sacrifices that come from multiclassing a spellcaster. you are going to be behind where a single-class spellaster would be. if you wouldn't have fireball anyways, there is almost assuredly another good spell you'll be missing out on as a result of your multiclass (hypnotic pattern, fear, etc).

a lot of people seem to act like there are no drawbacks; a 2-3 lock splash somehow only adds things if you listen to most people. that is simply not the case. there is a cost. a rather substantial one. there are benefits as well, yes, and depending on what you want to do they may outweigh the costs. but it is important to always understand what the costs are, and that they are in fact there.

[Naanomi]

An occasionally useful trick: make a magic stone and let your invisible imp/Sprite/whatever throw it

[Fragenstein]

he didn't say the pact doesn't add options. he said it doesn't add many *combat* options.

Hey, SharkForce -- is it just me, or was SBO's post just a partial cut-and-paste of your post from here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19935876&postcount=5)?

[Corran]

If there were other full casters in this game that would be painfully true, but since I am in a party with 2 half casters, 2 third casters and a monk, I'll still be relevant as a caster regardless of full classing warlock/sorcerer or multiclassing.

He was just trying to point out to you that the cost of multiclassing is real and stays the same, whether you have any full casters in the group or not. Just because an ostrich puts its head in the sand, it doesnt mean it cant be seen.

[Malifice]

Just because an ostrich puts its head in the sand, it doesnt mean it cant be seen.

I see you've been reading our Halfling 'naturally stealthy' threads re Jack in the box rogues.