Questions concerning the Spell DC scaling and fairness

[Melcar]

I was wondering a couple of things, which I hope to have a little discussion about. Many here have good argument and great creativity, so hopefully some of that will come forward here.

What I have been wondering is, whether or not the Spell DC is fair compared to saves at a certain level.

If you are a level 55 female Sun Elf, Grand Mage of the High Mages of Myth Drannor, and basically the most powerful spellcaster in your Crystal Sphere, what would be an appropriate base DC to have. (Let’s forget game mechanics for one second).

I know that someone at that level, could have Epic Magic, or simply cast spells that gated in some epic beast of death and decay, but what’s the fun in that. I am therefore interested in thinking about how penetrable spells from such a Master of Magic should be or ought to be.

This is the first question I present; hopefully this will give some interesting answers.

[noob]

At least 50/2+10+6 or 41(strict minimum for not having absolutely everything in all the multiverse resisting automatically to those spells)
It might be also something like 35703060433897549863407903549^89540760356985478094 697356075979305799354^9792549729354389924579934126 706397926802578970346752472464^6382457856763534652 1373568368554244ZA5572463^482682446344636485344466 872542^475545454525436868247921974386^588045845824 37456877U7^845985957472356796455896745682498674864 709790897809709785254^2568574867086634696645709724 5556694786(and be still terribly low)
It entirely depends on which level of power is your setting.
But I suggest to use BB(BB(BB(BB(BB(omega^omega)))))(not calculable with physically possible technology: it needs an infinite universal Turing machine able to predicts when it stops but it still stays useless when people are simply immune which never not happens).
Basically you enter infinitely infinitely infinitely powerful realms: when you reach level 55 gods are little ants you kill by just thinking to and you have free burning top hats of awesomeness.
Cthulhu is only FP 30 and an mechanical Cthulhu swarm who splits into two mechanical Cthulhu swarms of equal power each time he is hit is something you can craft at level 44.(in pathfinder where the overpower of casters is comparable to the one of casters in 3.5)

[Grod_The_Giant]

Given that the game starts cracking up in the teens, and loses even the slightest semblance of balance or sanity when you hit epics? Numerical DCs by level 50 are laughably impractical. From a pure mechanical standpoint, the DC ought to be ~[Average save bonus*]+10, but you've long since passed the point of no mechanical return.

[Melcar]

An example could be the Devastation Beetle. Should it be possiple for the most powerful spellcaster to affect it with spells targeting it's constitution more than 5% of the time, considering my example is 5 level higher? I would think yes. Perhaps it should be possible 25% of the time... What do you guys think?

[Troacctid]

Saves vary far too widely at that level to provide a useful baseline. The best you can do is look at where your players are at and calibrate it to them. However, there's still a pretty good chance you run into a situation where making it so the Paladin doesn't auto-succeed means making it so the Bard auto-fails.

[noob]

Yes because the paladin does have double stats to save progression(charisma and the base stat) making it better than most other classes at saves at epic level(since the base save progression is 1/2 for everyone)
Until the wizard of the group casts an epic stat increasing spell on himself.

[Melcar]

Yes because the paladin does have double stats to save progression(charisma and the base stat) making it better than most other classes at saves at epic level(since the base save progression is 1/2 for everyone)
Until the wizard of the group casts an epic stat increasing spell on himself.

I would think that if the most powerful wizard went up agains the most powerful paladin, there should still be more than 5% chance of getting a spell in.

Some quick calculations would put a fortitude save of a level 55 Paladin at around 60 (without cloak of resistance).

[Troacctid]

I would think that if the most powerful wizard went up agains the most powerful paladin, there should still be more than 5% chance of getting a spell in.

Some quick calculations would put a fortitude save of a level 55 Paladin at around 60 (without cloak of resistance).

The problem is that you have so many resources by then that maybe one player invests in saves and ends up with +70, while another player doesn't and ends up with +50. And once you hit that kind of differential, it's mathematically impossible to have a DC that's balanced for both players.

[noob]

Without cloak of resistance is a false assumption:
1: In epic progression the wealth keeps being exponential and price of the items is still quadratic you would be a fool to not take a slotless cloak of +16.66666 to saves it costs only 5,555,555 PO at level 55 and so it small for the benefit then you take a slot-less charisma bonus of 26 which costs 6,760,000 PO and every five or six levels you double your wealth at level 55 you have approximately 80,000,000 so for one eight of your wealth you have you can have +29 to all saves(in addition to your 60 base saves so you have 89 to most of the saves) then you can spend some of your wealth on some items giving the nice immunity to have and after that have 60,000,000 PO to spend on whatever the heck you want like a +40 sword.

[Deophaun]

I would think that if the most powerful wizard went up agains the most powerful paladin, there should still be more than 5% chance of getting a spell in.
If he took Planar Touchstone to get the Pride Domain power, it would actually be a 0.25% chance.

[Max Caysey]

I think that in the spirite of FR, that the top dog, should have something like 60.

[Melcar]

Without cloak of resistance is a false assumption:
1: In epic progression the wealth keeps being exponential and price of the items is still quadratic you would be a fool to not take a slotless cloak of +16.66666 to saves it costs only 5,555,555 PO at level 55 and so it small for the benefit then you take a slot-less charisma bonus of 26 which costs 6,760,000 PO and every five or six levels you double your wealth at level 55 you have approximately 80,000,000 so for one eight of your wealth you have you can have +29 to all saves(in addition to your 60 base saves so you have 89 to most of the saves) then you can spend some of your wealth on some items giving the nice immunity to have and after that have 60,000,000 PO to spend on whatever the heck you want like a +40 sword.

You bring forth some valid points. Although I have to ask, if its not a little boring to have most of ones power be laced up in items`?

I see how one could just make an items that gave spell power, but again... I find it a bit boring. But I do see your items points indeed.

[StreamOfTheSky]

A fair save DC at level 55?

10 + spell level (10 for epic spells) + casting ability modifier. Maybe some +1's for spell focus and such.

Don't like it? Too bad. Poor caster, go weep in your self-created demi-plane.

[Melcar]

A fair save DC at level 55?

10 + spell level (10 for epic spells) + casting ability modifier. Maybe some +1's for spell focus and such.

Don't like it? Too bad. Poor caster, go weep in your self-created demi-plane.

I was not refering to any level 55 or a crappy level 55, but the setting's most powerful.

Lets take the elf in question:

Int 20
2 for bealnorn
3 for age
5 for tome
13 for level
1 for feat
Now depending on Headband of Interlect it could be anything from +6 to +48

But going with +12 we end op with a final Intelligence of: 56 (23 modifier)

With the following:
3 for epic spell focus
(6 if 3.0 version of spell focus is used)
(6 if 3.0 verson of archmage is used)
(1 if 3.0 Spellcasting Prodegy is used)
1 for first chapter of the Nether Scrolls

For a final base DC of: 34/37 (47 for 3.0 versions used)
40/43 if a +24 int item is used.

So 37+9+2 (buff spell) for a total of: 48 or 54 if a +24 int item is used.

48 is thus representing the most powerful spellcaster's higher DC possiple. That to me seems very, VERY low. ( i know I could apply a higher bonus int item)
54
What is your comments on this?

[noob]

There is ways to cheese feats for +2 DC(turn your spells evil automatically and increase the DC of all the evil of 2 stuff of this kind) Then cheese metamagics and divine metamagic and night sticks for having spells cast like if they were higher level and possibly some stuff like spell-dancer + quickened teleport for heightening to infinity your spell.(all of them are pre epic)

[Melcar]

There is ways to cheese feats for +2 DC(turn your spells evil automatically and increase the DC of all the evil of 2 stuff of this kind) Then cheese metamagics and divine metamagic and night sticks for having spells cast like if they were higher level and possibly some stuff like spell-dancer + quickened teleport for heightening to infinity your spell.(all of them are pre epic)

My point is, that against other CR 55 creatures/ characters, I would think that some spell should pass through the save barrior. I am unfamilier, with the cheese you mention (infinite heightened spells), but the +2 does nothing. Even with the 3.0 version of feats and classes its still so low, that most of the CR 50+ auto saves agaist even the level 9 spells of a level 55 sunelf spellcaster.

Indeed the best spellcaster of a setting might not need a writeup, but right now, I was simple interesten in your (other here at GitP) thoughts on what is reasonably when it comes to base DC...

[Jack_Simth]

Hmm.
Well, first we'll need to make assumptions about WBL, as the ELH doesn't really go above 40th for that.
For the moment, let's assume that the +12 for stat enhancers, and the +10 for the Cloak of Epic Resistance is also the limit of the item. Moreover, let's assume that most custom items are forbidden, but that the Combining Common Magical Effects rule in MIC is in place. Within those limits, though, the players can have any items they like.

So that Paladin who focused on Charisma will be rocking, at 55th, a Charisma score of:
18 base, +2 racial, +12 Enhancement, +5 Inherent, +13 level up, and as much as another +22 from Great Charisma. That puts the Paladin at a Charisma score of 72, for a mod of +31. With the Cloak of Resistance +10 and a Luckstone, that save is +42 above base and before the normal ability score to the save. Base is going to be +29/+23/+23. Let's assume 12 base for Dexterity, +5 Inherent, and +12 Enhance; same for Wis, base 16 for Con with +5 Inherent and a +12 Enhancement. That puts the Paladin's saves at: +82/+74/+74

In order to save only 50% of the time when targetting a weak save, the Wizard needs a save DC of 85. Is this doable?
Venerable Gray Elf Wizard (18 base, +2 Racial, +3 Age, +12 Enhance, +5 Inherent, +13 level up), with Epic, Greater, and normal Spell Focus, taking Epic Heighten Spell and Improved Spell Capacity, gets a +21 ability modifier with a +3 on top of that, so save DCs are 34 + spell level. How high of a spell level can the wizard have? Well, he's going to have about 22 Epic feats to play with, one of which is spent on Epic Spell Focus, one of which is spent on Epic Heighten Spell, so Mr. Wizard has 20 Improved Spell Capacities, for 29th level spell slots. 34 + 29 = 63. Not enough to make Mr. Paladin blink (Mr. Paladin just needs to avoid the nat-1 clause).

What about Mr. Fighter? Mr. Fighter doesn't get Charisma to saves, but is an otherwise identical build to the Paladin as far as we're concerned, although he had the feats to spare for Iron Will, Lightning Reflexes, and Great Fortitude. His saves are +53/+45/+45. If Mr. Wizard targets Mr. Fighter's Will or Reflex saves (with, say, a heightened Transport Traveler's Wish or a heightened Telekenetic Sphere or something), then Mr. Fighter needs an 18 to pass. On Mr. Fighter's good save, he's got about a 55% chance.

Then a different wizard decides he doesn't care about save DC, accepts that people will only fail a save on a nat-1, and thus takes Multispell 18 times, automatic quicken spell three times, and goes 1-fishing by spamming 20 spells/round.Essentially: Saves and save DCs are just too swingy at those levels for you to get a good number. The high save types will fail only on a nat-1, those who do not optimize it well enough are simply toast.

[Melcar]

Hmm.
Well, first we'll need to make assumptions about WBL, as the ELH doesn't really go above 40th for that.
For the moment, let's assume that the +12 for stat enhancers, and the +10 for the Cloak of Epic Resistance is also the limit of the item. Moreover, let's assume that most custom items are forbidden, but that the Combining Common Magical Effects rule in MIC is in place. Within those limits, though, the players can have any items they like.

So that Paladin who focused on Charisma will be rocking, at 55th, a Charisma score of:
18 base, +2 racial, +12 Enhancement, +5 Inherent, +13 level up, and as much as another +22 from Great Charisma. That puts the Paladin at a Charisma score of 72, for a mod of +31. With the Cloak of Resistance +10 and a Luckstone, that save is +42 above base and before the normal ability score to the save. Base is going to be +29/+23/+23. Let's assume 12 base for Dexterity, +5 Inherent, and +12 Enhance; same for Wis, base 16 for Con with +5 Inherent and a +12 Enhancement. That puts the Paladin's saves at: +82/+74/+74

In order to save only 50% of the time when targetting a weak save, the Wizard needs a save DC of 85. Is this doable?
Venerable Gray Elf Wizard (18 base, +2 Racial, +3 Age, +12 Enhance, +5 Inherent, +13 level up), with Epic, Greater, and normal Spell Focus, taking Epic Heighten Spell and Improved Spell Capacity, gets a +21 ability modifier with a +3 on top of that, so save DCs are 34 + spell level. How high of a spell level can the wizard have? Well, he's going to have about 22 Epic feats to play with, one of which is spent on Epic Spell Focus, one of which is spent on Epic Heighten Spell, so Mr. Wizard has 20 Improved Spell Capacities, for 29th level spell slots. 34 + 29 = 63. Not enough to make Mr. Paladin blink (Mr. Paladin just needs to avoid the nat-1 clause).

What about Mr. Fighter? Mr. Fighter doesn't get Charisma to saves, but is an otherwise identical build to the Paladin as far as we're concerned, although he had the feats to spare for Iron Will, Lightning Reflexes, and Great Fortitude. His saves are +53/+45/+45. If Mr. Wizard targets Mr. Fighter's Will or Reflex saves (with, say, a heightened Transport Traveler's Wish or a heightened Telekenetic Sphere or something), then Mr. Fighter needs an 18 to pass. On Mr. Fighter's good save, he's got about a 55% chance.

Then a different wizard decides he doesn't care about save DC, accepts that people will only fail a save on a nat-1, and thus takes Multispell 18 times, automatic quicken spell three times, and goes 1-fishing by spamming 20 spells/round.Essentially: Saves and save DCs are just too swingy at those levels for you to get a good number. The high save types will fail only on a nat-1, those who do not optimize it well enough are simply toast.

Firstly, beautiful "situation" well done...Any chance you could do that for one of two CR 55 monsters?

I would also like to hear your oppinion on the matter... Not just your very well done analysis!

[Jack_Simth]

Firstly, beautiful "situation" well done...Any chance you could do that for one of two CR 55 monsters?

I would also like to hear your oppinion on the matter... Not just your very well done analysis!
My opinion on the matter is that it is way too swingy to call in a generic manner, which means it really doesn't matter outside of a specific table. I can analyze the closest monster I can find in the ELH to your target CR, though, seeing as how I already have a range of probable save values:

I'm only finding one pre-statted critter of about that official CR in the ELH, though - the Hecatoncheires at CR 57. Good enough. It's saves are: +39/+30/+27, with SR 70. The save DC focused Wizard turns it into mincemeat by using a heightened Finger of Death (after casting Assay Spell Resistance, of course). The Hectoncheires needs a 20 to save, and Assay Spell Resistance + Spell Penetration and Greater Spell Penetration means that the Wizard gets through the beast's SR on a 1. The Multispell Wizard has a save DC that's about 40 for a 9th (as high as he goes), and spams the Hecatoncheires to death... although targeting Will, which is the beast's weakest save, Multispell Wizard (Ms Wizard) only needs two save-or spells, statistically. Again: Assay Spell Resistance + Greater Spell Penetration + Spell Penetration = Ignore SR.

Going the other direction ... the chosen abomination doesn't have any save-or effects. If it had a supernatural ability based on it's highest ability score (a strength of 50), the save DC would be: 10 + 1/2 HD + Ability mod = 10 + 26 + 20 = DC 56. Mr. Fighter's weakest save is at +45, so he needs an 11, exactly a 50% chance. Mr. Paladin giggles at the abomination's puny save DC.

[StreamOfTheSky]

What is your comments on this?

Let me put this another way.... it is already a sham and a travesty that an epic level character, especially deep into epic, can fail a single saving throw with a 5% chance and instantly be defeated/killed. Wishing for save DCs that have an even higher chance of insta-jib characters that are the equals of GODS is disgusting.

Those are my comments.

[TheifofZ]

Save DCs at 50+ level?
The hell are we talking about those? First, the scaling of spell saves into epic level is pretty much crap (as was so kindly pointed out, saves scale terribly).
Second: the ability to make saving throws scales consistently with levels, and even someone who has taken 50 levels of fighter should have a +50 to Reflex and Will without much issue.
Third: Even if a character is level 100, with +100 to all saves, unless they take specific abilities or feats, if they roll a 1 against any Save or Die, even one cast by a 12th level character (though how the hell that 12th level got the drop, we may never know), then they dead. Period. And given WBL and likely capabilities at epic level, they're back next round and mildly annoyed about it.
Finally: Saving throw levels are completely inconsistent anyway, because there are tons of combinations of classes, feats, and items that boost them. Pre-epic, there's a set limit on how wild these combinations can be, and even then, there are ways to get saves over +40/+40/+40 by level 20 easily. Compared to that, level 50 is two and a half times longer than normal, meaning that the scaling complexity of the combinations is even vaster. I'm not going to look into the exact exponential increase because of how many variables there are and I'm not great at math, but I can tell you it's silly to try to balance it.

Combat becomes redundant in epic levels, and as the levels scale, so too does the general silliness of attempting to actually engage the characters in any meaningful way.

[Melcar]

Let me put this another way.... it is already a sham and a travesty that an epic level character, especially deep into epic, can fail a single saving throw with a 5% chance and instantly be defeated/killed. Wishing for save DCs that have an even higher chance of insta-jib characters that are the equals of GODS is disgusting.

Those are my comments.

Thanks... I would say however, that its a travesty, that a level 55 spellcasters only has a 5% chance to get spells through, without resorting to some cheese. I guess we differ on that :smallsmile:

[Max Caysey]

Could one not just create an item that actually boosted spell DC? I have put some thought into this my self, since I too play epic games too. Usually some short adventures...

[noob]

you can heighten spells to arbitrary levels when you are a spelldancer and a spell heightened to level 200 will mostly autogib opponents(but you need to dance 200 rounds but it is rather easy if you are using scry and die tactics since you can quicken teleport(with epic metamagics))

[LTwerewolf]

Spellcasters of that level have evolved beyond the need to use spells that require saves at all.

[Max Caysey]

Spellcasters of that level have evolved beyond the need to use spells that require saves at all.

Well there are still spells that require saves... which are quite good. Just saying...