Cleric Build Help

[karinrin55]

My DND party in nearing a campaign ending, even so I am switching my character (A 9th level Paladin and 10th level hellreaver) for a cleric since we now do not have any sort of spellcaster in the party [Our wizard got better thing to do if you know what I mean :smalltongue:].
Now, after looking at a few options and considering that our BBEG is an epic lich arcane caster (How ironic that both the DM and I read OOTS comics), I am torn between a full cleric of Wee-Jas or a Radiant Servant of Pelor.
So I was thinking of coming to this wonderful community for advice, which of these should I play and if you can suggest a build and some advice for a first time cleric (I've only played a bard, paladin and fighter so far so I'm kind of popping a cherry here :smallredface: )
I would really appreciate your suggestions and opinions, thanks in advanced. :smallsmile:



p.s- Our party is 19th level and playing with 5/8 the level's wealth (meaning 362,500 gp)

[Kakuga]

What kind of cleric are you looking at being? Healer, Tank, Necro, AOE spellcaster? Clerics (in my opinion) are the most versatile class in the game.
One of the main things to look at when being a cleric is the Domains. I would not choose a god then Domains, but rather select a god that has the Domains you want. However, you could just be an unaligned cleric that just selects two domains, as stated as an option in the 3.5 PHB.
Domains can grant you anything from feats to spell like abilities, thus making your character very powerful from start to finish.

[karinrin55]

Initially I was thinking a decent healer and AOE debuff with a respectable amount of damage. But then it accured to me that by replacing my paladin my team has no healing (no lay on hands or the hellreaver's divine succor ability) so I decided to go with a radiant servant of Pelor.
If you could suggest a good build for him that'll have a real good tyrning and healing that would be much appreciated.

[Kakuga]

I would do a bit of reading into the main WoTC page first.

http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070807

Also if you are looking at being a bit of a bane to undead as well, maybe take a look at the "Expedition to Castle Ravenloft" adventure book. It has the Lightbringer Cleric Variant on pg. 206.
This variant adds some cool things like changing your turning ability into Destroy Undead, where you instead deal 1d6 damage to all undead within 30ft. Very powerful.
They also can use this ability to create daylight and give fast healing 2 for 5 rounds.
They lose one domain to gain these things, but it doesn't block them from prestiging or taking feats in anyway.
Thus with that you can just take the healing domain to have better healing spells, the sun domain so that if you get tired of undead you can, once per day, decide anything that fails it's save against your turn (or destroy) is instead destroyed completely, or you can take strength to give your self a strength bonus equal to your cleric level for one round as a free action for those moments when you need to hit really hard to save the day.

Again, clerics are very very broad in how you can build them.
What is also great is that they work like wizards with their spells, plus are able to spontaneously cast healing spells in place of their prepared spells, so you don't have to say "I am gonna be the healer always." You can prepare your spells to be an AOE debuff and have some decent damage spells, then just drop a spell you don't need at the moment for a healing spell in it's place!

Most Clerics that will based themselves on their spells however should take feats to improve their number of turns per day, as well as obtain Divine Metamagic. (Talk with your DM about that feat and read the errata... it is broken otherwise hahaha)

[GilesTheCleric]

The problem with playing a level 17+ cleric against (any BBEG) is that it can make the encounter entirely anticlimactic, even unintentionally. And, it's a tricky line to toe between "effective-without-without-breaking-the-fight" and "useless-or-didn't-add-anything".

I'd advise against any buffing of your turning. Destroying the BBEG with a single turn check is no fun, because it means you only need one more divination spell to end the game. Healing in combat is difficult to do -- if you want to go this route, then I'd recommend working on giving yourself extra actions, or picking up faster heals (wands/familiars, imbue with spell ability, etc). Heal and Mass Heal are the best healing spells, though I think there's also some gem-based/healing pool heals that you can prepare ahead of time. Note that you can make healing more efficient through various means such as shield other+amulet of retributive healing, though little tricks like that probably won't be enough vs a BBEG.

What books do you have access to? I'll take a look at some spells that should help without being cheesy. There might even be some 9ths in that list (what's that one that does an 120' AoE stun for 1 round? Lion's Roar or something? There's a couple that are neat without being game-breakers, anyway).

Re Divine Metamagic: It's not broken, and the errata doesn't make a significant difference. It's simply more easy power than you want to throw at an unprepared GM.

[karinrin55]

My DM has no problem with any book that isn't completely broken so I'm good there plus our BBEG probably has magic items to resist my turning/destroying and spells to help him as well.
Plus my DM plays a cleric from time to time when someone else DMs so he suggested Dragon Prophecier and Prophecy's Shepherd (from magic of eberron) for quikend cure spells in exchange for turning attempts.

[GilesTheCleric]

Is healing going to make the combat enjoyable for you? What makes you have the most fun in the game? Because with a cleric, you can do whatever that is, and heal at the same time.

[nedz]

These (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1238) two (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1344) handbooks might be useful.

[LudicSavant]

Really it's hard to give specific advice if I don't know what kind of flavor you're going for. Cleric is an incredibly versatile class with a massive number of powerful builds which can fulfill all kinds of diverse concepts.

That said...


But then it accured to me that by replacing my paladin my team has no healing (no lay on hands or the hellreaver's divine succor ability) so I decided to go with a radiant servant of Pelor.

You don't need a special prestige class to make a Cleric a better healer than the Paladin. A cleric will be a better healer than a paladin almost completely regardless of what you do, so go nuts.

[sleepyphoenixx]

I'd suggest getting Divine Defiance (FC2) and taking a short dip into Church Inquisitor (CD) for the Inquisition domain. That's a pretty minor investment that will make a huge difference against spellcasting enemies, and Church Inquisitor can be taken as early as level 4 so it doesn't take anything away from your other PrCs.

If you're a Silverbrow Human or otherwise have a SLA you can also pick up Arcane Mastery (CArc) to take 10 on dispel checks.
Together with the Inquisition domain you're pretty much guaranteed to succeed in dispelling enemy buffs and counterspelling unless their CL is significantly higher than yours, and you can improve on that just by boosting your CL or getting a Dispelling Chord (MIC).

Healing isn't really something you need to invest in as a cleric. The only spell you'll want to use in combat is Heal, which doesn't benefit from Empower or Maximize, and out of combat healing can be taken care of with a wand.

If you're making a cleric of Wee Jas you should also take a look at Ruby Knight Vindicator (ToB). That easily takes care of in-combat healing with martial maneuvers and doesn't take up your spell slots. It also makes up the melee capability that your party loses with your Paladin leaving.

[ExLibrisMortis]

I second Church Inquisitor + Divine Defiance. With Spontaneous Domain Casting (PHB2) for the Magic domain, you don't even have to prepare dispel magic anymore, although at 19th, you'll most likely want a domain with greater dispel magic instead, such as Liberation.

There is also quite a lot to be gained from going into Dweomerkeeper (an online addition (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20040522a) to Complete Divine). Supernatural spells are very hard to counter, and the Mantle of Spells ability allows you to spontaneously cast a small number of spells.

[morkendi]

One of my favorites is cleric with a 2 level dip on prestige paladin. With high charisma for turns, devine grace is nice. Using thw lightbringer acf, cleric/pristiege paladin/ radient servent only losses 1 caster level. You pick up devine grace, gain access to palidin spells depending on how your dm sees it. You gain martial weapons and everything. I feat up for a melee cleric with cleave and such. DMM is nice, but it burns through turns. With the destroy undead from lightbringer and stuff, i am using my turns to harm undead. I pick up quicken turn and fight undead like a pally. You can plow through lesser undead and bring the hurt to bigger undead. Not super powerful as optimized DMM, but no slouch either.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Cleric, 19th level, 362,500 gp, all books, BBEG is an epic arcane lich.

At 19th level you have at least 171,000 xp, so if you have an Item Familiar (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/itemFamiliars.htm) you'll gain at least 17,100 xp more. This can be spent on item creation and/or buying off a level adjustment (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/reducingLevelAdjustments.htm).

Human is probably going to be your best choice for a race, or Silverbrow Human in Dragon Magic if you want the dragonblood subtype/flavor, plus the Feather Fall is useful if your buffs get successfully dispelled/disjoined.

Go LG with an exalted status and the Saint template (BoED). That has a +2 LA, and it's gained no sooner than 6th level, so at your 12th level (gain three times the LA in class levels) you paid 13,000 xp (ECL -1 x 1000) and at your 15th level (three times the LA again) you paid 15,000 xp (ECL -1 x 1000) to completely buy that off, so you have a +0 LA and you're down 28,000 xp. The Item Familiar reduces this xp deficit to 10,900 xp, so if you would begin play with at least 10,900 xp more than what's required for 19th level, then you still begin play at 19th level. Otherwise you're 18th level but very close to reaching 19th.

Your class levels should be Cloistered Cleric (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#clericVariantCloistere dCleric) of Pelor (formerly Heironeous) 4/ Church Inquisitor 1/ Morninglord 1/ Radiant Servant 5/ Morninglord 8+. Cloistered Cleric is originally from Unearthed Arcana, Chruch Inquisitor and Radiant Servant are in CD, and Morninglord (of Lathandar, the Forgotten Realms version of Pelor) is in Player's Guide to Faerun. Start with the Sun and Healing domains, get Inquisition and Glory from your PrCs, and trade your free Knowledge domain for Knowledge Devotion in Complete Champion. Trade your ability to spontaneously cast cure spells for spontaneous domain casting in PH2 for the Healing domain, which means your Radiant Servant Empowered Healing which only applies to Healing domain spells will apply to all of your spontaneously-cast Healing domain spells, not just one spell per spell level that you prepared in your domain slot. Trade your Healing domain's special power for Divine Restoration in Dungeonscape, which allows you to spontaneously convert prepared spells to cast (Lesser, Greater) Restoration.

You should take two flaws (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/characterFlaws.htm) (more here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?258440-The-quot-Best-quot-Flaws#30)) for two extra feats. I would pick Hot Blooded since the increased vulnerability to cold effects won't matter since a Saint is immune to cold, and get Vulnerable or Murky-Eyed for your other flaw.

You'll need three exalted feats to be a Saint. One should be Knight of Tyr's Merciful Sword from Champions of Valor, which requires membership in the Knights of the Merciful Sword order. Tyr is the Forgotten Realms version of Heironeous, and having formerly been a Cleric and Church Inquisitor of Heironeous, you were a member of a qualifying order at the time you gained this feat, and are still a member in good standing despite switching deities. Knight of Tyr's Merciful Sword gives you +1 AC vs demons, and once per week you can concentrate to sense the direction of the greatest injustice or evil within 1 mile (or 10 miles if you meditate for 8 hours), with murder, treason, and the presence of evil outsiders ranking highest when you use this ability. I would pick Knight of the Homeland in Champions of Valor, which gives you +1 AC and immunity to fear effects while in your home region, and Nymph's Kiss is always a good choice if taken at 1st level.

You need Extra Turning and Improved Turning for your prestige classes. Considering your two flaws and your bonus feat for being Human, you'll still have five more feats to pick. These should be Extend Spell, Persistent Spell, Divine Metamagic: Persistent Spell, Item Familiar, and possibly Leadership. You can find those in Complete Divine or the PHB.

It's extremely important to get some very specific magic items in order for this build to function at all. From the MIC you need a Rod of Defiance (weapon), Reliquary Holy Symbol (neck), Ephod of Authority (torso, Vestments of Divinity set), and Scepter of the Netherworld (held). From Libris Mortis there's the Nightstick which is active as long as it's in your possession, and the effect is not expressed as a bonus so having multiples of them will give you the benefit multiple times. In the DMG there's the Phylactery of Undead Turning (head) and the Monk's Belt (waist).

You should also obtain the following items which can be found on the Necessary Magic Items (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?187851-3-5-Lists-of-Necessary-Magic-Items) list: Banner of the Storm's Eye (shoulders) or a custom item that grants a continuous Favor of the Martyr effect (shoulders), Hathran Mask of True Seeing (face) or a custom item that grants a continuous Touchsight (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/touchsight.htm) effect (face), Anklet of Translocation (feet), masterwork clothing enchanted as +1 Soulfire armor (body), Ring of Freedom of Movement (finger), Spellblade added to your Rod of Defiance with Greater Dispel Magic selected (weapon), and a Ring of Anticipation (finger).

You can add certain bonuses to existing items per MIC p234 for the same price as a standalone item of the same bonus. For example, adding a +6 Enhancement bonus to Wisdom to your Phylactery of Undead Turning costs the same as buying a Periapt of Wisdom. Get a standard Strand of Prayer Beads with the Bead of Smiting removed, so it still has the Bead of Healing and the Bead of Karma, and the DMG puts the price of this item at only 9,000 gp. (Lesser) Metamagic Rods of Extend are fantastic, and if you can afford a Greater Metamagic Rod of Maximize that would be superb.

Your Item Familiar should start out as a Ring of Protection +1, which you pay full price from your WBL for. Say you upgraded it yourself to a Ring of Freedom of Movement with a +1 Deflection bonus to AC added (MIC p234), which cost 20,000 gp and 1,600 xp. An Item Familiar is an intelligent item (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/intelligentItems.htm), and "A creator can add new magical abilities to a magic item with no restrictions, (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/creatingMagicItems.htm#addingNewAbilities)" so you could have added additional lesser and greater powers and even a special purpose and dedicated power of your choosing as though using an item creation feat. As an intelligent item it's regarded as a construct, which means it cannot be disabled or destroyed by dispelling or disjoining and it continues to function in antimagic and dead magic areas, though such effects can temporarily suppress the benefits you gain from it. The item familiar gets actions every round just like creatures do, and it can choose to activate its own abilities, so if you give it the dedicated power to use Fireball at will it can spam that every round in addition to whatever your character does. Make its dedicated power to protect the innocent from undead and evil outsiders, and it will use that Fireball every round against such creatures as long as it wouldn't hit any innocents in the blast. Use the level-based benefits you give the Item Familiar to upgrade its stats and senses. You can wear a glove or gauntlet over the ring so opponents won't have line of sight/effect to it and cannot target it directly or Slight of Hand it.

Get a 6th level Pearl of Power and a standard Metamagic Rod of Extend Spell. Every other day prepare Energy Immunity (SC) twice and use the pearl to cast it three times, using the rod on each. On the days in between prepare Energy Immunity and Superior Resistance (SC) each once and use the pearl to cast Energy Immunity twice, again using the rod on each. This will give you constant immunity to all five energy types and a +6 Resistance bonus to all your saving throws, for two 6th level spell slots per day and those two items.

With Extra Turning, three more uses of Turn Undead from your Reliquary Holy Symbol, and a decent Cha score, you'll need to figure out how many Nightsticks you'll need to DMM: Persist your necessary buffs, and have enough TU uses left to power Extra Greater Turnings from Radiant Servant and Morninglord, since a Greater Turning still requires a normal use of Turn Undead to activate. Necessary buffs include the following: Divine Power, Mass Lesser Vigor on the whole party, Righteous Wrath of the Faithful on the whole party, Stormrage, Greater Visage of the Deity, and Holy Star three times (with the Greater Rod of Maximize if you got it). That's eight spells, which requires 56 Turn Undead uses to have in effect. You'll get 5+Cha Greater Turnings, so with 13 Nightsticks you'll have 6+Cha left over, or with 12 Nightsticks you'll have 2+Cha remaining.

In addition to the above buffs, you should be casting (Extended) Greater Luminous Armor, Slow Poison, Greater Magic Weapon on your Rod of Defiance, and Magic Vestment on the Greater Luminous Armor effect, plus any other hour/level spells you can find. If you took Leadership get a Sorcerer cohort (with the Ancestral Relic Runestaff trick (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?267805-Sorcerer-Handbook#4)) who will buff you with Mind Blank, among other things.

Your Holy Stars should each be kept in a different mode, once one star's Spell Turning is used up switch it to a different mode and switch another one to Spell Turning. You can switch all three to the fire ray mode to get three shots per round when needed, which is especially nice if you maximized it. You'll be adding your Wis bonus to your AC twice, once from Saint and once from the Monk's Belt. Your cohort should be specialized in counterspelling (Sorcerer with Improved Counterspell, a dip in Sacred Exorcist to get Divine Defiance, a 0- or 1st-level spell of each school and Heighten Spell with Rapid Metamagic), and have the Dragonblood subtype (Silverbrow Human) with Wings of Cover in Races of the Dragon among his spells known. He should also know Command Undead and have a Lesser Metamagic Rod of Chain Spell from Complete Arcane, and will use that to automatically gain control of as many high-HD mindless undead as possible and order them to flee for an hour and then destroy themselves, so your turn undead uses are more effective against the more powerful/intelligent undead opponents remaining. He should always try to stay adjacent to your character, of course.

[Rebel7284]

I second Dweomerkeeper as an amazing class.
You can enter without any arcane casting levels if you take Magical Training feat. Having the ability to spontaneously cast Miracle is something. Spontaneous Heal takes care of all the healing needs at this level. Initiate of Mystra is flavorful feat to take with the prestige class, gives you access to many arcane spells you would want with [Greater] Anyspell (Celerity? Why not!), and lets you cast in an Antimagic Field, which is pretty amazing. Hell, this character can sometimes use Antimagic Field as a buff spell!
Supernatural spell is of course incredible.

If you would like to stick to Wee Jas, Ruby Knight Vindicator can be entered with 0 levels of crusader and you get Divine Impetus for extra swift actions (technically, you have to houserule it to be a free action usable once per turn because due to not specifying an action type, RAW it should take a standard action... but the intent seems pretty clear to me.)

[Troacctid]

Healing isn't really something you need to invest in as a cleric. The only spell you'll want to use in combat is Heal, which doesn't benefit from Empower or Maximize, and out of combat healing can be taken care of with a wand.
There are totally other healing spells you should be using in combat. Mainly Close Wounds, which is very action-efficient and can save an ally from death. Of course, it doesn't benefit much from being Empowered or Maximized either, but still.

There are also cases where you may want to use a Restoration spell in combat, although that's more situational. (Luckily, you can use that ACF from Dungeonscape to spontaneously cast Restoration spells.) And then there's Revivify, which is a big one that you kind of HAVE to cast in combat.

[sleepyphoenixx]

There are totally other healing spells you should be using in combat. Mainly Close Wounds, which is very action-efficient and can save an ally from death. Of course, it doesn't benefit much from being Empowered or Maximized either, but still.

There are also cases where you may want to use a Restoration spell in combat, although that's more situational. (Luckily, you can use that ACF from Dungeonscape to spontaneously cast Restoration spells.) And then there's Revivify, which is a big one that you kind of HAVE to cast in combat.

Revivify isn't exactly healing. I'll grant you Close Wounds, but that's an emergency spell and you can't really optimize it anyway. Of course you're going to want to throw a heal if the alternative is one of your party dying.

And you'll never want to use Restoration in combat, because it has a casting time of 3 rounds. By the time you get it off (if you're not interrupted) you could have finished the fight already.
It's a lot more efficient to use your spells for buffs to prevent the damage in the first place, and heal up what goes through after the enemy is dead.

Healing in combat is something you should only do if the alternative is having to raise someone. Heal is the effective solution because it heals enough to actually make a difference.
Sure, a RSoP 10 can get the same effect out of his cure spells, but that's investing a lot in something that you shouldn't really have to use all that often, and that takes away from investing in something else that you could have used to avoid taking damage in the first place.