Oathbreaker Paladin and Control Undead

[Corran]

So I was just toying around the idea of an oathbreaker paladin (for some future use maybe), when I stumbled accross the control undead channel divinity.

Firstly I would like to ask a question, regarding to how this power is supposed to work. You see, it says in the description (and I am paraphrasing) that an undead will only be a valid target of that power if its challenge rating is strictly lower than the paladin's level. And my question is, will this power be less effective for an oathbreaker paladin who dips into another class, considering he is not advancing as much as he could in the paladin class? I know it says ''the paladin's level'', but maybe that's because this specific text refers to a paladin character, or am I just trying too hard to impose the meaning I want? I mean, is this power intended to work strictly based on paladin levels, or on character level? Maybe it is clear enough to everyone else, but I can't help but think that the only reason it says ''paladin level'' is because this whole section refers to a paladin pc (so the text is based on the assumption that it refers to a single-class paladin character), and it does not explicitly state something in the lines ''depends on class level and not character level'', as is the case with the description regarding cantrips (with the exact opposite being the case there). Has there been a clarification on this one? Or is it that clear to everyone else out there? I would love to hear some answers on this one, it would greatly help me understanding better some of those mechanics and the way they work.

Secondly, I would like to ask if anyone knows of any clever synergies, regarding how to make this power the most effective. If the effectiveness of this power is striclty tied to paladin levels, then I guess the best way to go about it would be to create a single-class oathbreaker with a high charisma score (for save DC), and there wouldn't be much else to be said about it, right (oh, I hope this is not the case....)? Would the sorcerer's heighten spell metamagic option work with control undead, or is it not strictly classified as a spell? Any other ideas? Is there a way (perhaps via some spell) to increase/decrease PCs' levels and monsters' CRs for the purposes of making such powers more likely to affect a target? Any other ways to impose a penalty or disadvantage on the undead's saves or perhaps increase my DC? I just love how badass this power can feel, and would like to munchkin my way around it. So essentially I am asking for advice on how to make a control undead tailored oathbreaker build. Fire away people. And thanks in advance for your answers!

[Blood of Gaea]

An undead whose challenge rating is equal to or greater than the
paladin's level is immune to this effect.

As far as RAW goes, it could go either way, Paladin level, or Character level. I personally think it leans more towards your actual Paladin levels though, and that is how I would rule it.

Combos:
-18 Paladin/2 Warlock: Friendly-Neighborhood-Death-Knight, some warlock because it's charisma based, and the Paladin cap stones aren't that great. Agonizing Blast Eldritch Blast will also be a solid range option. Alternatively grab a Wight, then have it and it's 12 minions stand within 30 feat of you, to stack up all your buffs on them.

Provided they each hit once each round, that's an extra 65 damage. Crusaders mantle makes that another 13d4 as well.

-20 Paladin: Demilich.

-16 Paladin/4 Sorcerer: Death Tyrant, you get most of the best Paladin stuff, more caster levels, and metamagic to buff your spells.


Any of those peak your interest? :)

And the easiest way to lower their WIS save would probably be with Hex, get it with a Warlock dip, or with the Magic Initiate feat. You can choose an Ability, and give them disadvantage on it, and Hex is an auto-hit.

[Corran]

Oh, those are some great ideas, thank you very much Blood of Gaea. Especially the one with the Wight and its minions and Crusader mantle. Very good damage, plus it will put this character commanding his small undead private army (I guess he commands the wight which in turn commands its minions), plus it would be hillarious to see all those undeads dealing some radiant damage with crusader's mantle on. Aura of hate could come pretty handy as well. I guess I would have to watch out for those area attacks in this scenario.
About hex, I think it does not mess with enemies' saves. I think it affects only skill based rolls, such as initiative and well....skills. At least that's how we are handling it in my table, we could be wrong...
Anyway, thanks again for your input, really appreciate it.

[Blood of Gaea]

Oh, those are some great ideas, thank you very much Blood of Gaea. Especially the one with the Wight and its minions and Crusader mantle. Very good damage, plus it will put this character commanding his small undead private army (I guess he commands the wight which in turn commands its minions), plus it would be hillarious to see all those undeads dealing some radiant damage with crusader's mantle on. Aura of hate could come pretty handy as well. I guess I would have to watch out for those area attacks in this scenario.
About hex, I think it does not mess with enemies' saves. I think it affects only skill based rolls, such as initiative and well....skills. At least that's how we are handling it in my table, we could be wrong...
Anyway, thanks again for your input, really appreciate it.


Also, choose one ability when you cast the
spell. The target has disadvantage on ability checks
made with the chosen ability

You're right, I had remembered it worded differently (I haven't played a Warlock recently).

The other option, is to use Polymorph, turn them into an undead with a low Wisdom save (Zombe is 0). Then release the Polymorph. The problem, is that it also requires a WIS save.

So there really isn't a way, you can lower STR & DEX with some status effects (i.e. stunned), and INT & CHA with Feeblmind, but I can't find anything for CON or WIS.

[Corran]

Hmm, just found something. Taking 2 levels in wizard (diviner) could in come handy. There is a chance one of those 2 rolls you ''save'' for later usage each day, could be low enough to guarantee the undead fails its save. Although this seems to be more trouble than help. Need to spend points in INT (for mc into wiz), need to take 2 levels in wizard, so that must hurt the charater (assuming, haven't gone into a lot of details), and there is not guarantee that either of those 2 rolls will be low enough (looked into the lucky feat as well, you cannot use it to affect those 2 rolls granted to you by the divination school). Plus you need to decide if to use one of those rolls before the undead gets to roll a save. Still, it's a plan. Just not a very cunning one...

[Blood of Gaea]

Hmm, just found something. Taking 2 levels in wizard (diviner) could in come handy. There is a chance one of those 2 rolls you ''save'' for later usage each day, could be low enough to guarantee the undead fails its save. Although this seems to be more trouble than help. Need to spend points in INT (for mc into wiz), need to take 2 levels in wizard, so that must hurt the charater (assuming, haven't gone into a lot of details), and there is not guarantee that either of those 2 rolls will be low enough (looked into the lucky feat as well, you cannot use it to affect those 2 rolls granted to you by the divination school). Plus you need to decide if to use one of those rolls before the undead gets to roll a save. Still, it's a plan. Just not a very cunning one...

Portent isn't really reliable enough, if you get mid range roles, you're screwed, and probably are going to get attacked by your creature (Demilich says hello).

I really think the best option here will be the 18Palladin/2Warlock. Also, to make zombies a bit more viable at higher levels, consider gearing them up a bit with Hand axes. They are light weapons, so you can have them do a bonus action attack. You can also have them throw them...but they will do it at a -1 accuracy penalty.

Handaxe: +1 to hit, 1d6+1 damage, light, thrown. 5gp ea, 130gp total.

If they stand within 30 feet of you and Crusader's Mantle is active, the damage is 1d6+6+1d4.

Also, apply Thunderous Smite constantly. Knocking an enemy prone means all your zombies are now at advantage. Which adds an effective +5 accuracy.

Ask you DM (or decide, if you are said DM) whether Zombies get Proficiency with hand axes, if they do, add +2 to hit.




If all the above is true, it makes for a pretty horrifying scene.

You start the combat by using a Thunderous smite combined with a Divine Smite (around 7d6+10+weapon die) send them flying 10 feet back and prone in a crash of thunder.

You move forward and grapple them, if you can't have your wight do it.

Now, 13 Zombies take turns darting into 5 feet, hacking away, then letting the next zombie in.

If half of them hit that is an average 156 damage, or 312 if they all do. Not including you or your Wights damage.

Also you have 15 attackers, if a player starts dying, they will die with only 3 more attacks hitting them, literally no problem with this build.

[numerek]

6th level sorcerer bend luck, though that is a big dip.

Oathbreaker paladins get bestow curse at 9th as a oath spell, it is also a wisdom save but you can cast it multiple times till it sticks or your run out of 3rd level spell slots. unlike hex it does give disadvantage to saving throws.

Oathbreaker paladins also get contagion at 17th level, blinding sickness gives disadvantage on wisdom saving throws. Contagion is a constitution save and there is some debate whether they are effected by the condition while they are trying to make their saving throws.

With both of those spells you could use metamagic heighten spell to make them harder to resist. And there is other ways to give people disadvantage against your spells saving throws.

[MrStabby]

One of my favourite characters was a Necromancer Oathbreaker. Human (not variant human either)

With undead boosted from two classes the skeletons were both tough and painful to enemies. Having paladin heavy armour, spells, smites made for a decent close combat character also (to keep things interesting by being able to fight in a lot of different ways.

Also zombies can become very tough indeed. When they add your CHA to their CON saves to not die, and have extra hitpoints they can make a pretty scary wall.

Also - self healing by killing with spells is pretty neat - smite spells are actually good when they heal you.