Oath of Vengeance Paladin Build for Out of the Abyss

[somehownotsingl]

We are going to play Out of the Abyss soon, and I had a few questions for my Oath of Vengeance Paladin build.

Big picture, he is going to be dual-wielding longswords (or something similar) using the dual-wielding feat for an eventual AC of 20 (+18 plate, +1 feat, +1 defense style at Pally 2). I think it will be fun to double the smite opportunities, the hunter's mark damage, etc.

Anyway, I had two questions:


1) HOW IMPORTANT IS IT FOR ME TO HAVE DARK VISION (ASSUMING OTHER CHARACTERS IN THE PARTY HAVE IT)?

Am I going to need to see in the dark a lot just to do anything effective in rounds? It affects my build because here are the two options I am considering:

1) Human Variant (16, 10, 14, 10, 10, 14), Dual Wield at 1st, CHA (or STR, of even Sentinel) at 4th

OR

2) Half-Elf (16, 10, 14, 10, 10, 16), Darkvision (and other perks), Dual Wield at 4th


2) DO YOU THINK IT IS WORTH IT FOR THIS BUILD TO TAKE A 1 LVL DIP INTO FIGHTER?

PROS: CON proficiency (if I dipped fighter at 1st, awesome for hunter's mark and other pally spells); additional fighting style (TWF, to add STR to off-hand); Second Wind (a healing ability of diminishing returns, but still a healing ability)

CONS: Give up CHA and WIS saves (if I dipped fighter at 1st); delay all class features (incl. ASI and Extra Attack) by 1 level

I hate delaying class abilities, but all the benefits of a quick fighter dip sure are tempting!


Those are the two questions I most want advice on, though feel free to address other things you think pertinent for the build, either in a vacuum or based on experience with the Out of the Abyss campaign. However, PLEASE don't devolve the thread into a TWF versus GWF debate. There are definite merits to the GWF style for an Oath of Vengeance build (Vow of Enmity + Great Weapon Master FTW! Polearm Master + Sentinel FTW!), but I've made my choice already for style reasons as much as damage output.

Thanks! I always get such great feedback from here!

[Corran]

Well, the first thing that you have to adress is your concentration saves. Since you will rely heavily on hunter's mark for some nice extra damage (which work really well in your case since your character will be dual wielding, in fact hunter's mark outdoes haste with TWF damage-wise, granted, haste offers other things as well), you want those con saves to be as good as they can get. Have in mind, that since you will be a front liner, your concentration might be tested several times per round (that ofc depends on the party composition as well). Luckily, aura of protection helps you in that respect, though dont forget it is a level 6 paladin feature. But it is not enough by itself. You need that con save proficiency. There are two obvious ways to get it, as you already pointed out. The first one, is to take resilient(con) as your first feat (level1 if variant human, level 4 if halfelf). The second way is to take your first level as a fighter. Each of these solutions have its pros and cons. Taking one level in fighter, although it gives you nice things (like second wind and a fighting style), delays your main class features by 1 level, which is a bummer (especially if you consider that some of them rely on paladin level, such as lay on hands). Now, that is a big deal. Divine smite at level 3 instead of 2, hunter's mark at level 4 instead of 3, extra attack at level 6 instead of 5, aura of protection at level 7 instead of 6, and so on. Plus you lose your wis save proficiency, that you would have if you started as a paladin, which can be a big deal, especially in higher levels. Plus it will tempt you at some point (when the next level in paladin would not offer something really important) to get a second level in figter, for action surge. And imo, for a character that wants to deal damage (as is yours if I didnt misinterpret your intention), not taking a second level in fighter when he already has one isn't really an option, as action surge is too good to pass on. But then again, action surge is not optimal for TWF users.
I prefer the other way, namely the resilient(con) feat. Make that the first feat to take, and delay the dual wielding feat (it is not that good anyway, speaking from a numbers' perspective). A +1 to AC and d8's instead of d6's seems pretty nice, but proficiency in con saves is what will make you a consistent dpr. Con saves is maybe one of the most important things when you want good and reliable damage from a melee character who relies on concentration spells. So I suggest resilient(con) asap, hands down.

On the darkvision matter, if you do not intend on sneaking and assassinating people in the dark, as long as the party's cleric or mage casts light, or as long as someone can hold a torch, you will be fine. Darkvision is more important for characters who want to go about their business in the dark and without drawing too much attention, so mainly rogues and the such. In all other cases, there are easy ways to cope with the lack of it.

Suggestion: Dump intelligence to 8, it does absolutely zero for you. Did you ever hear of a smart paladin? No! Because they died in their first quest for not having enough points on some other stat that mattered.

[Kane0]

1) HOW IMPORTANT IS IT FOR ME TO HAVE DARK VISION (ASSUMING OTHER CHARACTERS IN THE PARTY HAVE IT)?

You have a choice. Everybody in the party can have darkvision and thus not require a big sign that says "There's something here come and check it out!" or you can deal with whatever comes your way because you are carrying around a beacon. There are plenty of sources of light, but that light is prone to bringing attention.



2) DO YOU THINK IT IS WORTH IT FOR THIS BUILD TO TAKE A 1 LVL DIP INTO FIGHTER?

I'd actually recommend a 2 or 3 fighter dip over a 1 because of action surge and improved critical/expertise dice. Out of the Abyss is supposed to take you from level 1 (or 2-3 if you have a generous DM) to 15, so plan around that. When you take it is the important decision (before lvl 4 if v-human, after if not as general rule).

Edit: make sure someone has survival as a proficient skill. You'll thank me later.

[somehownotsingl]

Thanks for the feedback so far.

Apparently, one of the guys in the group is already planning to be human, so that means we'll already have a light with us all the time, I guess. And another guy is doing a DEX elf build. So, there's no compelling reason for me to worry about having darkvision, or not. The half-elf has some great benefits, but that free feat for variant human sure is tempting ...

I think at the moment I'll probably go 6 paladin to start off with; might go more, but probably not. I was planning to do warlock after that, mainly for the extra and particularly high spell slots (smite!). But maybe some levels of fighter would be good to toss in -- maybe even through the improved crit of champion, as was suggested.

Anyway, lots to think about. Keep the feedback coming!

[Kane0]

Careful dipping both fighter and warlock, thats a total 4-5 levels behind on your paladin-ness and (often more importantly) ASIs.

A Feylock 2/Ancient paladin X is very nice though, both thematically and mechanically speaking. In fact that's what I was planning should I ever get to play an Out of the Abyss or Princes of the Apocalypse game.

[somehownotsingl]

A Feylock 2/Ancient paladin X is very nice though, both thematically and mechanically speaking. In fact that's what I was planning should I ever get to play an Out of the Abyss or Princes of the Apocalypse game.

Two level dip of warlock up front isn't a bad idea at all! In fact, apparently the beginning of the campaign is rather brutal. I've already been told that based on rolls, I'm only starting with a dagger. Sure would be nice to be able to roll with a pact weapon and an eldritch blast out of the gate. Then I can paladin all I want from there.

Not sure I want to go archfey/ancients route, BUT Warlock Something 2/Paladin Something X is quite enticing.

I could also use one of the invocations to pick up devil's sight, then feel free to go human variant without worrying about the darvision questions.

[Kane0]

Youd have to be warlock 3 for pact weapon, not really worth it.
Both give the same save profs, but paladin gives much better armor and weapons plus higher Hp and startingg with lay on hands.
Better to go pally 1. Are you starting at level 1?

[bid]

1) Human Variant (16, 10, 14, 10, 10, 14), Dual Wield at 1st, CHA (or STR, of even Sentinel) at 4th
OR
2) Half-Elf (16, 10, 14, 10, 10, 16), Darkvision (and other perks), Dual Wield at 4th
If your human gets Cha+2 at level 4, human and half-elf will match. Half-elf is ahead with darkvision and fey ancestry.

I didn't know DW worked so well for straladin: +1AC, +2damage with non-light weapons added compared to +1damage from Str+2. It's still behind dueling or gwf without the twf style but your bonus attack is another chance to crit-smite.

Strength-twf is a weird idea, but it looks like fun.

[Ardantis]

I'm also lovin the TWF Str Pally. Smite insurance is handy, and since you don't need to rely on the offhand for damage, really, you're free to use the bonus action for spells if you've already smited. Of course, you could always just smite again! Combine with the Death from a Thousand Cuts from Hunter's Mark, and you're a smiting blender.

And that's why I'd stay straight Paladin, for the spell slots. Warlock is ok too, but avoid Fighter for this build.

[eastmabl]

Going to say that lacking the ability to see in the dark while in a place called the Underdark is probably going to be a significant handicap.

Unless you can overcome it via magic item or spell (and darkvision is a 2nd level wizard/sorcerer spell which lasts 8 hours), you probably want to go with a race that has darkvision.

[somehownotsingl]

More good feedback, all.

I had forgotten that Pact Blade is third level. Yeah, never mind on that plan :-)

We're starting at level 3, which means I will get to choose a feat at level 4 rather quickly in terms of actual game play. That's making me lean towards Half-Elf. If were started at level 1, I would have a hard time waiting for the Dual wielding feet, but I can wait one actual level of game play :-)

Starting Paladin makes a lot of sense, and I think I'm persuaded by those that say that fighter dip isn't the best way to go. After all, the punch of this build doesn't come from base damage or even slightly better crit chances, but from potentially unleashing multiple smite novas per round. He might lag behind other front liners a bit round to round, but when you need something dead ... oh wow, that thing is gonna be dead!

After about Paladin 6, the lure of the class starts wearing off for me ... though Vengeance gets some nice spells at level 9. I could see myself going to 11 maybe for the radiant damage. Or heck, at that point just stay one more level for the ASI, if you're in for 11. At some point, however, MC'ing warlock makes sense if only because I would gain extra spell slots (and rather high ones rather quickly) to expend on high damage smites.

So, definitely Pally 6, but then maybe Warlock? Or Warlock later (say, after 11 or 12)? Or straight pally? Or MC into sorcerer, instead? Or other suggestions? :-) I feel like a TWF Straladin is more effective the more he can smite without worrying about spell slot resources.

Thoughts?

[Kane0]

Pally 6 / Warlock 2 / Pally X is a good approach by getting that sweet sweet aura ASAP as well as not missing ASIs. Your bonuses from warlock can wait a little until after you get all your signature paladin-ness and second attack after the early game eases off on the squishyness. After you have it all at level 8 (or 9 if you really want 2nd level warlock slots and pact boon) you can take it easy and plug away with paladin levels until paladin 11 where you get your +1d8 per hit, then branch out from there if you still have levels to spare (13, which means the last two can be more paladin for a bit of extra casting oomph and an ASI or 2 fighter for an endgame boost to your nova in the form of action surge + battlemaster dice).

Pally 1 / Warlock 2 / Pally X is an alternative if you really want to start with devils sight and something like beguiling influence or some other invocation that looks good to you. You do give up quite a bit of your paladin progression until it evens out in the mid levels so make sure your comfortable with this if you choose this spread. It won't be for the fainthearted but you do get eldritch blast immediately so you can hang back if you are feeling squishy.

Note: Your warlock levels don't stack with your paladin levels for your casting, but that's a benefit in disguise. At warlock 2 that means 2 level 1 spells per short rest, and you can use those for paladin spells, most notably heals, blesses and smites. It also nets you hex if you need to touch up your damage output, but beware the concentration duration.

If you want to go sorcerer you trade the short rest spells and invocations for sorcery points and adding to your paladin casting directly, more nova less sustain. It also requires more of an investment than a 2 level dip. Paladin 8 / Sorcerer 12 is common.

[bid]

So, definitely Pally 6, but then maybe Warlock? Or Warlock later (say, after 11 or 12)? Or straight pally? Or MC into sorcerer, instead? Or other suggestions? :-) I feel like a TWF Straladin is more effective the more he can smite without worrying about spell slot resources.
Definitely Pally 11 for improved smite on your 3 attacks and Warlock 7 for level 4 spells. That's the limit for smite (4th does 5d8)

And if you really want human, you could start pally1/lock2 for devil's sight. That's a little slow on pally and feat, but at least you have EB for level 5-6. An alternative for your RP concept.

[Kane0]

Just remember, the adventure is only supposed to take you to about level 15, so don't plan for levels 17-20 as your endgame.

[somehownotsingl]

MMMMM ... TWF Paladin gets 6d8+2STR per round at Level 11 without even using a smite.

(attack, extra attack, bonus action; bonus action wouldn't have STR b/c it's off hand)

And, if I am understanding smite and improved smite correctly, Pally 11 could possibly do another 12d8 in smite damage in one round. (three 3rd level spell slots at 11, so 4d8 +4d8 +4d8 for the three attacks)

So, in one glorious round my pally could do 18d8+2STR damage, if there was something so bad it merited that sort of punishment.

That's tasty! Maybe I should just get to Pally 11 as quickly as possible ...

[somehownotsingl]

Just remember, the adventure is only supposed to take you to about level 15, so don't plan for levels 17-20 as your endgame.

Yes, good reminder!