Elans Illusion

[Ellisar]

What kind of illusion spell did Elan use to fool the hobgoblins? It is kind of hard to believe that all those hobgoblins would fail their saving throws against disbelief when they did their 'ranged interaction', and also I doubt that minor or even major image could create that many illusionary people, or have them all react to the arrows at the same time.

I still use the 3.0 rules, so is this a 3.5 spell?

[BisectedBrioche]

What kind of illusion spell did Elan use to fool the hobgoblins? It is kind of hard to believe that all those hobgoblins would fail their saving throws against disbelief when they did their 'ranged interaction', and also I doubt that minor or even major image could create that many illusionary people, or have them all react to the arrows at the same time.

I still use the 3.0 rules, so is this a 3.5 spell?

I'd guess that it's a spell from the Plot Edition Rules.

[Not_A_Fluffer]

I'd guess that it's a spell from the Plot Edition Rules.

Right you are, I looked it up. Level 3 spell called Suspend Belief.

[Rincewind]

What kind of illusion spell did Elan use to fool the hobgoblins? It is kind of hard to believe that all those hobgoblins would fail their saving throws against disbelief when they did their 'ranged interaction', and also I doubt that minor or even major image could create that many illusionary people, or have them all react to the arrows at the same time.

I still use the 3.0 rules, so is this a 3.5 spell?

It's from the addendum book; "This is a comic, not a core rule book 3.7 revised edition"

[Delgarde]

What kind of illusion spell did Elan use to fool the hobgoblins? It is kind of hard to believe that all those hobgoblins would fail their saving throws against disbelief when they did their 'ranged interaction', and also I doubt that minor or even major image could create that many illusionary people, or have them all react to the arrows at the same time.

I don't know what spell it might be, but regarding saving throws, keep in mind that the GM isn't going to roll the saves for each individual hobgoblin. He's going to roll for any important NPCs, then just make a few rolls for the rest of the army. So given the more or less non-existent Will modifiers the hobgoblins would have, it's entirely plausible for the PCs to get away with it.

[monsterinshadow]

actually Major Image is only a level 3 bard spell and as long as you make the image react appropraitely to attacks, it can be hit and stay.

[Kreistor]

Major Image fills a space 4+level x 10'cubes, and at min bard 7, that's 11 of those 10' cubes. That's more than enough for the characters shown, since they only take up a 5' cube each. Elan could make an army of 44 (or 64 if you agree that he's Bard 12) appear with it.

[NeonRonin]

Makes me wonder about something else...

Could other divisions of the hobgoblin army be made to panic and retreat by the sudden appearance of an armada of reinforcements in the middle of the city? That is to say, an armada that looks real but is actually the result of several high-powered illusions?

Remember, there is a more powerful illusionist at Azure City- assuming he hasn't gotten bogged down in another argument with Roy in the afterlife. Eugene Greenhilt, time to whip out the mojo!

[Emperor Ing]

The hobgoblins werent the only ones to be fooled by Elan's little illusion, look around! ull see what I mean. :smallbiggrin:

[esmerelder]

The hobgoblins werent the only ones to be fooled by Elan's little illusion, look around! ull see what I mean. :smallbiggrin:

I've just looked over the comic again, but don't see what you mean... unless... oh, no!

You don't mean that *Vaarsuvius* might have seen the whole thing and been fooled by the illusion, do you? How awful for hir, if so! I can just imagine how horrible the poor elf would feel, seeing the rest of the Order fall right after ze had just managed to save zirself. Worse, ze might then spend hours running around the city looking for Roy, since as far as I know V doesn't know that he's dead yet... Wah! I hope it isn't so, even though that would make a fantastic and very heart-wrenching storyline.

[Xykon_Fan]

I think Randomizer was talking about the "End of the Comic" thread, but I could be wrong.

Also, I think you meant to use he/she/it in reference to V. I know he/she/it looks feminine with the headband thing, but he/she/it is an elf, and thus even the guys look kind of sissy. (No offense to elf-lovers)

:xykon:_fan

[TheOtherMC]

I've just looked over the comic again, but don't see what you mean... unless... oh, no!

You don't mean that *Vaarsuvius* might have seen the whole thing and been fooled by the illusion, do you? How awful for hir, if so! I can just imagine how horrible the poor elf would feel, seeing the rest of the Order fall right after ze had just managed to save zirself. Worse, ze might then spend hours running around the city looking for Roy, since as far as I know V doesn't know that he's dead yet... Wah! I hope it isn't so, even though that would make a fantastic and very heart-wrenching storyline.

Well......Wisdom isnt his/her strong suit....

[esmerelder]

I think Randomizer was talking about the "End of the Comic" thread, but I could be wrong.


Oh! *blushes* Thanks for pointing that out... that's what I get for not reading all the other threads before replying to this one... I still like my theory, though, even if it would be way too heartbreaking as an actual storyline!


Also, I think you meant to use he/she/it in reference to V. I know he/she/it looks feminine with the headband thing, but he/she/it is an elf, and thus even the guys look kind of sissy. (No offense to elf-lovers)


I know! :smallsmile: I love the fact that you can't tell whether V is male or female, it's one of my favourite things about the strip... I thought I'd try using epicene pronouns (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender-neutral_pronoun) (a gender-neutral way of saying 'he/she/it') because it's shorter to type and doesn't look so cluttered! </linguistics geek>

[holywhippet]

Well......Wisdom isnt his/her strong suit....

Intelligence is though, and that performance was pretty bad. It might fool a hobgoblin but V should be smart enough to see how unrealistically the illusions acted. Besides he/she would surely head out to where they fell in case they were still alive. The lack of corpses would tell V that something was amiss.

[Grumlich]

Not to mention the fact that wizards have great will saves.

I was thinking that maybe the nobles out in their ships would get wind of Hinjo's death and send in their reinforcements to help out. That would be a pretty helpful turn of events.

[the mysterian]

You don't mean that *Vaarsuvius* might have seen the whole thing and been fooled by the illusion, do you? How awful for hir, if so! I can just imagine how horrible the poor elf would feel, seeing the rest of the Order fall right after ze had just managed to save zirself. Worse, ze might then spend hours running around the city looking for Roy, since as far as I know V doesn't know that he's dead yet... Wah! I hope it isn't so, even though that would make a fantastic and very heart-wrenching storyline.

not likely, that illusion was sad, it was his first time getting it to work on someone smarter than thog, V has 18 int last i checked, he can figure it out

[LordVader]

The hobgoblins werent the only ones to be fooled by Elan's little illusion, look around! ull see what I mean. :smallbiggrin:

He means elsewhere where some forumites actually thought they all died.

[Angela Christine]

You do have to give Elan credit for not resorting to his usual illusion of a female version of whatever is menacing them. :smallbiggrin:

[teratorn]

I know! :smallsmile: I love the fact that you can't tell whether V is male or female, it's one of my favourite things about the strip...

Well, the Giant has shown us V in t-shirt. Let's say V lacks the female gender revealing attribute in the OOTS universe:

Hey, y'all, look!!

http://www.GiantITP.com/Images/tshirtbanner.gif (http://www.cafeshops.com/orderofthestick)

Click the graphic and revel in the beauty of it all!
Not that this proves anything, and I'd better stop here. I'm starting to hear cries from kittens. :smallfrown:

[zapperchamp]

I think in response to this thread the Giant might add this as a funny.

A few hobgoblins will make their will saves and claim that the PCs are alive but will be shunned as "crazies" by the others.

[Alysar]

Well, the Giant has shown us V in t-shirt. Let's say V lacks the female gender revealing attribute in the OOTS universe:


Either that, or she's got a really small rack.

[esmerelder]

And that's a fairly loose-fitting T-shirt, unlike the babydoll-cut one that Hayley's wearing...

*slaps own wrist* No! Not turning this thread into another 'V.'s gender' discussion!

[kpenguin]

What kind of illusion spell did Elan use to fool the hobgoblins? It is kind of hard to believe that all those hobgoblins would fail their saving throws against disbelief when they did their 'ranged interaction', and also I doubt that minor or even major image could create that many illusionary people, or have them all react to the arrows at the same time.

I still use the 3.0 rules, so is this a 3.5 spell?

I don't think the hobgoblins even get a saving throw unless they directly interact with the OOTS or they examine them closely.

[teratorn]

Either that, or she's got a really small rack.

The worst about that thing is that I find that Haley looks really hot in that ad. It sounds weird, but it seems (at least to me) that some stick figures are more attractive than others.

[esmerelder]

To anyone who knows more about D&D than I do - would the illusion be more convincing if you were viewing it from far away enough not to be able to hear the inane things the illusory OOTSers were saying? Also, would being tired and out of spells have any effect on your ability to distinguish reality from illusion?

Also, not that I think this will really happen, but if V. was somehow taken in by an illusion created by Elan... think of the fun Belkar would have when he found out! The teasing would never stop, ever again, ever.

[kpenguin]

To anyone who knows more about D&D than I do - would the illusion be more convincing if you were viewing it from far away enough not to be able to hear the inane things the illusory OOTSers were saying? Also, would being tired and out of spells have any effect on your ability to distinguish reality from illusion?

Also, not that I think this will really happen, but if V. was somehow taken in by an illusion created by Elan... think of the fun Belkar would have when he found out! The teasing would never stop, ever again, ever.

The illusion might be more convincing from far away. Remember, unless there's a reason to disbelieve, there's no disbelief check. Being far would mean V would have a harder time recognizing that's not the real OotS. At close range, V would be able to remember that Elan has a different outfit and know that the stuff the illusions are saying isn't quite normal. Fatigue and exhaustion, however, has no effect on your wisdom or will saves.

[chibibar]

well.. Illusion can look convincing when the opponent thinks of the same line. They have to do a will check but I personally as a DM would only make a player do a will check if they felt something is wrong about the illusion.

Haley corrected Elan about getting hit by arrows and falling over. The hobgoblins can believe that since they are shooting 100s of arrows at them (if not more)

since the event is pretty short and not a long illusion (looks like 2 rounds? or less) so it is easy to believe. Also Elan is a bard so his charisma would add a bonus to it.

[the_tick_rules]

plus what's a level 1 hobs sense motive modifer and will save, not good.

[Rincewind]

The hobgoblins werent the only ones to be fooled by Elan's little illusion, look around! ull see what I mean. :smallbiggrin:

XD You mean that guy who thought all OOTS was dead and posted a comment here somewhere don't you? :biggrin:

[Setra]

not likely, that illusion was sad, it was his first time getting it to work on someone smarter than thog, V has 18 int last i checked, he can figure it out
Let's, for a moment.. presume V has a will save of +8.

And Elan's Charisma Bonus is +5. And the spell is Major Image.

The DC would be 18 = 10 + 5 + 3

V would have a 50% chance of believing it. However that's just presuming those stats are what they are, it's entirely possible V has a Wisdom Bonus, or that Elan has only a +4 bonus.

Also, it's worked on other creatures before, Trigak, and the Guard from Cliffport. While yes, not useful, it "worked".

Of course it's entirely possible V saw nothing.

[BisectedBrioche]

I think in response to this thread the Giant might add this as a funny.

A few hobgoblins will make their will saves and claim that the PCs are alive but will be shunned as "crazies" by the others.

Hobgoblin: "The PCs are alive!"

Crowd;

"It was probably just a bunch of inpersonators"
"Yeah right, and they're being cloned in a secret lab"
"With the sound of music?"
"Good, the world needs more 'lives'"

[baerdith]

Either that, or she's got a really small rack.

I think Haley is supposed to have a REALLY impressive one. :smallwink:

[EYanyo]

Major Image fills a space 4+level x 10'cubes, and at min bard 7, that's 11 of those 10' cubes. That's more than enough for the characters shown, since they only take up a 5' cube each. Elan could make an army of 44 (or 64 if you agree that he's Bard 12) appear with it.

But there are eight 5' cubes in a 10' cube... meaning 88 and 128. But I guess the illusory warriors would be juxtaposed on the y-axis, so it wouldn't be a very believable illusion... nevermind.

Edit: Also, according to the spell description, one only gets a will save if one interacts with the image. Thus, I don't think V would get a save if (s)he saw the image. But I might be wrong... I'm not hip to your newfangled "three-point-five" rules.

[Draz74]

You do have to give Elan credit for not resorting to his usual illusion of a female version of whatever is menacing them. :smallbiggrin:

No, I don't. In fact, I give all credit for that to Haley, not Elan. :haley:

For those disparaging V's Wisdom: It's actually probably his/her highest stat after Intelligence. Giant has mentioned in the Forums that it's "decent," whereas V's Str and Cha are low and Dex and Con are "not really impressive." (Also see how V is presented as one of the party's responsible members here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0075.html).)

[evileeyore]

No, I don't. In fact, I give all credit for that to Haley, not Elan. :haley:

For those disparaging V's Wisdom: It's actually probably his/her highest stat after Intelligence. Giant has mentioned in the Forums that it's "decent," whereas V's Str and Cha are low and Dex and Con are "not really impressive." (Also see how V is presented as one of the party's responsible members here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0075.html).)

I take that as more basis for Vaarsuvius being Lawful and not Chaotic like the other three who represent themselves as irresponsible.

[baerdith]

Just to keep this alive, who else thinks this spell could have been Persistent Image?

PI is the only spell that says "Intelligible Speech" (which the Sage says ONLY granted IF the spell description says so).

Some others have said that PI has a script that can't be changed, Why?

[the_tick_rules]

it OOTS rules, they've bent the D&D rule book a few times before.

[Roderick_BR]

In response of V believing it. Disbelieve checks are made by the DM when the character suspects something is wrong, to notice that it's a illusion.
Let's say an elf disguises self as a goblin in a goblin city. No one's going to suspect.
Now, the same elf disguises himself as a ogre, and try to boss around the goblins, knowing that a group of ogres usually passes by the city. Many will believe it and be terrified.
A few, however, will find it odd that a ogre showed up so sudden, and without his peers, so they are allowed a will save.
Even if they fail the save, they can still think something is wrong. Another example: The elf goes into a dwarven city, and disguises as a dwarf. Then he meets some dwarf that thinks something is wrong, and fails his will save.
He still knows something is wrong, it, for example, the elf is impersonating someone the dwarf knows, and more, that impersonated dwarf is RIGHT there with the suspecting dwarf. He may suspect that it's a illusion, a polymorph, a clone, whatever, he knows it's not real.
So, if V looked them, and noticed the discrepancies, he would say "oh no, my conrades fell in battle, but why would they be so uncautious to walk into a rain of arrows? Even Elan wouldn't... wait, Elan, that's it. He probably cast a illusion. I did notice their appearances were not right."
V would know it's a trick, even if the spell makes it look real. Now, if Elan make a ilusory copy of himself, and stand by it's side, V would have a hard time guessing who's the real one for a few minutes.

Wow, longwinded comment about ilusions :p