Character Concept

[DracoKnight]

The finished product will be a Tiefling Arcane Trickster.

This character has trained for years in the Roguish arts, and doesn't look like most tieflings - having pale skin, and horns that are small enough that they're hidden in his hair. This particular tiefling was sired by a most tricksy demon, who used the Dark Arts to make his child look more human - to infiltrate human society more efficiently. He's known for most of his life that he has magical talents, and as he hones his abilities in the Infernal Arts, he will eventually gain the abilities equivalent to a 1/3 caster, and he trains these abilities alongside his roguish talents. Thus he is an arcane trickster.

Now, because of his backstory, his magical abilities are innate, thus I would make him a Charisma caster - even for his arcane trickster spells - and I would give him the Warlock spell list, since the spells there lean more towards the Infernal thematically. This character would have the same enchantment/illusion restriction that every other arcane trickster has - since his sire literally created him to infiltrate society.

How many DMs would allow this?

EDIT: this is all for theorycrafting.

[Blood of Gaea]

Allowing Arcane spells to be Charisma based, on a Rogue? I don't know, that's an awfully big bonus. You are basically turning your first or second strongest stat (INT) into a dump stat, and leaving room for focus on DEX/CHA, and your CHA stat ups help with social, and arcane casting.

I might allow this, but I would either have to give you a downside, or find a similar buff to all the other players.

The problem is, the build is based around having natural magic, but playing a class that does not have it naturally.

Would you be open to perhaps multiclassing into Warlock instead? There are plenty of warlock Incantations that support trickery. Warlock is also a CHA caster, and your father can be your Patron. 12-14 Rogue/6-8 Warlock should be a similar level of strength.

[NNescio]

I wouldn't allow it, because there's a concrete mechanical advantage, as Cha is a superior stat compared to Int, especially for Rogues. It wouldn't be fair to the other players, and I would have to come up with some downside or some similar boon for other players, as Blood of Gaea mentioned.

Just multiclass Rogue/Warlock instead.

[Kane0]

Sure, why not. The warlock list is sufficiently less great to weigh out the switch from int to cha in my eyes. Its not like youll be an OP powerhouse anyways.

[djreynolds]

The finished product will be a Tiefling Arcane Trickster.

This character has trained for years in the Roguish arts, and doesn't look like most tieflings - having pale skin, and horns that are small enough that they're hidden in his hair. This particular tiefling was sired by a most tricksy demon, who used the Dark Arts to make his child look more human - to infiltrate human society more efficiently. He's known for most of his life that he has magical talents, and as he hones his abilities in the Infernal Arts, he will eventually gain the abilities equivalent to a 1/3 caster, and he trains these abilities alongside his roguish talents. Thus he is an arcane trickster.

Now, because of his backstory, his magical abilities are innate, thus I would make him a Charisma caster - even for his arcane trickster spells - and I would give him the Warlock spell list, since the spells there lean more towards the Infernal thematically. This character would have the same enchantment/illusion restriction that every other arcane trickster has - since his sire literally created him to infiltrate society.

How many DMs would allow this?

EDIT: this is all for theorycrafting.

Could you get what you want, with another sets of classes?

Bard/warlock may give you want you desire minus the sneak attack, still getting actually a better spell list, Valor bard can fight well and Lore Bard would thematic with someone investigating the Infernal Arts, and "went to far," hence, the warlock multiclass.

You might find warlock/bard may lend itself better to your concept.

Hex can give you the "feel" of sneak attack damage. You learned to perform and deceive at young age to hide your tiefling ancestry. Your spell power will be much more potent with bard, full caster, and some warlock thrown and bard can "steal" spells. 4 skills expertise. And now you can take the actor feat and its actually useful to you, and throw in the assassin archetype for some real oomph.

Enjoy

[Logosloki]

You do realise that you are losing a lot of spell options using the warlock list? For the gain of Eldritch Blast, Hex and Enthrall you are losing 5 1st level options, 4 2nd level options, one third level (phantom steed) and three fourth level options. As long as you are fine losing a lot of utility I wouldn't mind as a DM you gaining cha as your spell modifier.

That being said, are you sure you want to play a rogue? From what you want you should probably just take the plunge and join the warlock side of life.

[Ardantis]

I'm more worried about the race. A human-looking tiefling without a disguise check? Mechanically speaking, the character needs to make a disguise tool kit check to conceal race, and it's a hefty one if I remember (at least it was in previous editions). What background were you considering? One of them helps with that, if I remember (Charlatan I think).

As for Cha casting (a MAJOR bump) it is somewhat allayed by going with a Warlock spell list. Remember, the Warlock list is quite thin without patron spells to round it out, and without invocations Eldritch Blast is anything but broken.

I'd allow it, but with a need for the character to somehow maintain the illusion of humanity through Perform checks and the use of a disguise kit.

EDIT: Plus, unless I'm mistaken, it's the thrill of the possibility of getting caught which makes this character interesting to play.

[Corran]

Wouldn't allow it, simply because you can easily incorporate that concept into a rogue/warlock multiclass, or a bard/warlock multiclass, or just a warlock. Unless there was a compelling reason that has to do with story and not mechanics (and I am missing this reason so far), I would urge you to go by the book (ie one of the above mentioned options), if you were at my table. Dont get me wrong, I like straying from the book quite a lot, but I cant get what reasons you possibly might have against simply multiclassing, or simply playing a warlock. Anyway, reflavouring the magical abilities of the arcane trickster to be innate (or rather a gift from the character's patron) seems absolutely fine to me, and relates to your background, but, changing the spellcasting ability from int to cha and changing the spell list seems quite unnecessary to me, and to be something that serves mechanics rather than story, so I wouldnt allow it since your concept would seem genuine and valid via just some reflavouring and not by those last 2 changes.

[DracoKnight]

Wouldn't allow it, simply because you can easily incorporate that concept into a rogue/warlock multiclass, or a bard/warlock multiclass, or just a warlock. Unless there was a compelling reason that has to do with story and not mechanics (and I am missing this reason so far), I would urge you to go by the book (ie one of the above mentioned options), if you were at my table. Dont get me wrong, I like straying from the book quite a lot, but I cant get what reasons you possibly might have against simply multiclassing, or simply playing a warlock.

The character is definitely a rogue, not a warlock. He's not even close to a warlock in terms of story, he hasn't made a pact with his sire, or anything like that - even though his abilities are more infernal. And MC Arcane Trickster/Warlock is actually more powerful, magically, than I want to make this character. He's still more rogue than magic user, and he's figuring out his innate abilities slowly, and they're taxing to use (long rest vs. short rest).


Anyway, reflavouring the magical abilities of the arcane trickster to be innate (or rather a gift from the character's patron) seems absolutely fine to me, and relates to your background, but, changing the spellcasting ability from int to cha

The reason I would change spellcasting from INT to CHA would be because Charisma as a spellcasting stat is about imposing your will on the world. That's very much what this character would do. He's not using magic because he learned it, but because his bloodline is magical. And by changing it from INT to CHA, it's actually making the rogue more MAD than it would be normally(DEX and INT saving throws).


and changing the spell list seems quite unnecessary to me,

The changing of the list is to reflect his more infernal spellcasting. He gives up a LOT of utility that the Wizard spell list offers this way, however thematically the more infernal spells of the Warlock list make more sense for a character whose innate casting comes from an infernal bloodline.


and to be something that serves mechanics rather than story, so I wouldnt allow it since your concept would seem genuine and valid via just some reflavouring and not by those last 2 changes.

This is totally fair that you wouldn't allow it, and I thank you for your feedback :D

[DracoKnight]

I'm more worried about the race. A human-looking tiefling without a disguise check? Mechanically speaking, the character needs to make a disguise tool kit check to conceal race, and it's a hefty one if I remember (at least it was in previous editions). What background were you considering? One of them helps with that, if I remember (Charlatan I think).

Yes, this is the background I was going to pair this character with.


As for Cha casting (a MAJOR bump) it is somewhat allayed by going with a Warlock spell list. Remember, the Warlock list is quite thin without patron spells to round it out, and without invocations Eldritch Blast is anything but broken.

That's what I thought. And the character wasn't going to use EB. He's more sneaky than blastery. He uses sneak attack for damage and spells for buffs/debuffs/trickery.


I'd allow it, but with a need for the character to somehow maintain the illusion of humanity through Perform checks and the use of a disguise kit.

That's what I was thinking too.


EDIT: Plus, unless I'm mistaken, it's the thrill of the possibility of getting caught which makes this character interesting to play.

Yes! This. He's a trickster who lives off of the high of nearly getting caught. In fact, a main part of his backstory, is that he's from a city which is ruled by a human lord who hates other races, especially tieflings. And as he grew up, this character became aware of his infernal powers and has become somewhat of a vigilante, trying to overthrow the lord.

[ruy343]

Based on your answers to the feedback that you've received, why not go with a Bard? If the character is more about social interaction, wants to be a Charisma-based caster, and want sto hold his own in a fight, bard would fit quite well. Talk to your DM about some reflavoring options. Maybe your bardic dice can come from you exerting demonic influence, rather than inspiring your companions. Maybe you'll trade out a few spells from another list.

However, if you want to be a con artist, a bard is definitely the way to go. Just because the PHB is written to cast most characters as heroes, doesn't mean that you can't reflavor them to do something else :)

[zinycor]

Based on your answers to the feedback that you've received, why not go with a Bard? If the character is more about social interaction, wants to be a Charisma-based caster, and want sto hold his own in a fight, bard would fit quite well. Talk to your DM about some reflavoring options. Maybe your bardic dice can come from you exerting demonic influence, rather than inspiring your companions. Maybe you'll trade out a few spells from another list.

However, if you want to be a con artist, a bard is definitely the way to go. Just because the PHB is written to cast most characters as heroes, doesn't mean that you can't reflavor them to do something else :)

Exactly what I was thinking

[DracoKnight]

Based on your answers to the feedback that you've received, why not go with a Bard? If the character is more about social interaction, wants to be a Charisma-based caster, and want sto hold his own in a fight, bard would fit quite well. Talk to your DM about some reflavoring options. Maybe your bardic dice can come from you exerting demonic influence, rather than inspiring your companions. Maybe you'll trade out a few spells from another list.

However, if you want to be a con artist, a bard is definitely the way to go. Just because the PHB is written to cast most characters as heroes, doesn't mean that you can't reflavor them to do something else :)

Bard was actually the first class my mind jumped to for this character concept, but I didn't like the idea of this character being a full-caster. He's a magically-able trickster, yes, but he's also a master of stealth, subterfuge, and backstabbing. He more. . . dabbles in magic, the kind of person who has magical abilities, and uses them often, but he's not as powerful as other casters. Like I said, he's an infernal vigilante, running around on rooftops, and using his magic to hide. I felt the rogue captured that better, even if I were to reflavor the bard.

[zinycor]

Bard was actually the first class my mind jumped to for this character concept, but I didn't like the idea of this character being a full-caster. He's a magically-able trickster, yes, but he's also a master of stealth, subterfuge, and backstabbing. He more. . . dabbles in magic, the kind of person who has magical abilities, and uses them often, but he's not as powerful as other casters. Like I said, he's an infernal vigilante, running around on rooftops, and using his magic to hide. I felt the rogue captured that better, even if I were to reflavor the bard.

I think that your reflaworing goes a little too far, I believe you would be far better with a Rogue/warlock multiclass and any GM Would be alright with that. As it is, I find that the character would be kinda weak, and a hard sell to many GMs.

besides, Bards do have the tools needed to be masters of stealth, subterfuge and backstabbing.

[Strill]

People in this thread are nuts. There's no reason to think that CHA is fundamentally superior to INT. They're both bad saves, and both used only for either skill checks or spell casting. There's nothing inherently better about it. Go ahead swap away.

Although it's important to note that restricting yourself to Illlusion/Enchantment spells from the Warlock list leaves you with very very few choices, especially for your unrestricted spells. I'd just leave it at the Wizard list.

[Kane0]

I think that your reflaworing goes a little too far, I believe you would be far better with a Rogue/warlock multiclass and any GM Would be alright with that. As it is, I find that the character would be kinda weak, and a hard sell to many GMs.


One of the biggest rules of homebrew: If a player wants to bring in 'brew that is less powerful than stock options, he probably is more interested in thematics than mechanical advantages.

The loss of the wizard list is a significant blow, and changing from Int to Cha brings that back into balance somewhat, since you are going to be Cha skilled inclined. Go for it!

Edit: This reminds me of that Druid list EK thread a little while back. "Be a nature cleric" "Try ancient paladin" "What about ranger?" "Valor bard with druid spells". The OP knows what he wants. He wants to be an arcane trickster, and he knows there are plenty of alternatives. His proposition is using the warlock list and CHA instead of the Wizard list and INT, and I say that is more than a fair trade (actually probably a little shortchanged).

[Strill]

Allowing Arcane spells to be Charisma based, on a Rogue? I don't know, that's an awfully big bonus. You are basically turning your first or second strongest stat (INT) into a dump stat, and leaving room for focus on DEX/CHA, and your CHA stat ups help with social, and arcane casting.

What the hell makes INT a rogue's second-strongest stat!? Are you thinking of 3.5 or something? I don't see any reason whatsoever to think he'll be any more powerful with CHA than with INT.

[DracoKnight]

One of the biggest rules of homebrew: If a player wants to bring in 'brew that is less powerful than stock options, he probably is more interested in thematics than mechanical advantages.

The loss of the wizard list is a significant blow, and changing from Int to Cha brings that back into balance somewhat, since you are going to be Cha skilled inclined. Go for it!

Edit: This reminds me of that Druid list EK thread a little while back. "Be a nature cleric" "Try ancient paladin" "What about ranger?" "Valor bard with druid spells". The OP knows what he wants. He wants to be an arcane trickster, and he knows there are plenty of alternatives. His proposition is using the warlock list and CHA instead of the Wizard list and INT, and I say that is more than a fair trade (actually probably a little shortchanged).

This is extremely accurate :D

[Starsinger]

This fits with the DMG advice about making a very different feeling Paladin that draws off the Wizard spell list, so... I don't see why not. Your reasoning is sound, you're not asking for something unheard of like a physical stat for casting, you're after something that is more difficult to get via multiclassing or feats or even taking the charlatan or criminal background on another class. You want to be an Arcane Trickster and you're asking for some tweaks for thematic purposes.

The only thing I would specifically be wary of, is Eldritch Blast, just because it's better than any other attack cantrip and could easily become your basic attack. But even then, I'd probably allow it.

[DracoKnight]

The only thing I would specifically be wary of, is Eldritch Blast, just because it's better than any other attack cantrip and could easily become your basic attack. But even then, I'd probably allow it.

That's not gonna be a concern, since this character is stabby, not blastery. . . and the things that make EB really powerful are the invocations. He can't get sneak attack on EB (ergo, stabby not blastery). And as I already stated, this character wouldn't even know EB.

[Starsinger]

Also, you probably want to specify the warlock list, including the Infernal Pact expanded spell choices.

[DracoKnight]

Also, you probably want to specify the warlock list, including the Infernal Pact expanded spell choices.

I did specify the Warlock spell list. And I wouldn't include the pact spells, since he never actually made a pact.

[DracoKnight]

Thank you to everyone who replied to this post. I think I will turn this theory character into an actual character in the campaign. (Probably as an NPC)

[Starsinger]

And I wouldn't include the pact spells, since he never actually made a pact.

I would include the fiend pact spells because they add more fiendish flavor than just the general Warlock list

[sophontteks]

With warlock levels, theres no reason you need to roleplay taking a multiclass warlock as a guy who sold his sould to the devil or w/e. Your a tiefling, its a natural power your finding within you.

[Kane0]

My guess is that for DracoKnight taking a warlock level would be a significant in game event, for example this character giving in to his heritage and actively seeking to gain from it.

[DracoKnight]

My guess is that for DracoKnight taking a warlock level would be a significant in game event, for example this character giving in to his heritage and actively seeking to gain from it.

The only time I would multiclass into a Warlock is if there was a significant in-game event that would make my character turn to forces beyond the universe. (i.e. a Paladin who's friend is killed has his faith shaken, and so makes a pact with a Fiend to seek vengeance). So yeah, taking a warlock level would be significant, and would have to pertain to recent events in the game, and would have to be RP'ed.

[zinycor]

One of the biggest rules of homebrew: If a player wants to bring in 'brew that is less powerful than stock options, he probably is more interested in thematics than mechanical advantages.

The loss of the wizard list is a significant blow, and changing from Int to Cha brings that back into balance somewhat, since you are going to be Cha skilled inclined. Go for it!

Edit: This reminds me of that Druid list EK thread a little while back. "Be a nature cleric" "Try ancient paladin" "What about ranger?" "Valor bard with druid spells". The OP knows what he wants. He wants to be an arcane trickster, and he knows there are plenty of alternatives. His proposition is using the warlock list and CHA instead of the Wizard list and INT, and I say that is more than a fair trade (actually probably a little shortchanged).

As a Gm it would be very awkward for me to allow a player to take a suboptimal build. Unlesss everyone is doing something like that.

[DracoKnight]

As a Gm it would be very awkward for me to allow a player to take a suboptimal build. Unlesss everyone is doing something like that.

I mean, I don't think that it's suboptimal. . . You get access to Hex, Armor of Agathys, Hellish Rebuke, Darkness; you don't get the vast utility of the Wizard spell list, but you do get some neat tricks, and Hex works with spell and weapon attacks.

[Strill]

I mean, I don't think that it's suboptimal. . . You get access to Hex, Armor of Agathys, Hellish Rebuke, Darkness; you don't get the vast utility of the Wizard spell list, but you do get some neat tricks, and Hex works with spell and weapon attacks.

Hex is terrible for rogues. It competes for your bonus action and only adds 1d6 damage AND requires concentration. You'd be almost universally better off using Cunning Action.

Armor of Agathys is terrible in general. Shield is way, way, way better. I don't see how you can think that getting a measly 5 HP is good, when you could be blocking one or more entire attacks instead.

Hellish Rebuke has at least some synergy, since you don't have much else to spend your reaction on, but spending your spell slots on damage as a 1/3 caster isn't going to be very productive.

[DracoKnight]

Hex is terrible for rogues. It competes for your bonus action and only adds 1d6 damage AND requires concentration. You'd be almost universally better off using Cunning Action.

It only takes a bonus action to cast, after that it's just there...


Armor of Agathys is terrible in general. Shield is way, way, way better. I don't see how you can think that getting a measly 5 HP is good, when you could be blocking one or more entire attacks instead.

That 5 HP can get upgraded, and as long as you have AoA cast, if you get temp HP from another source you can apply that temp HP to AoA (by RAW)


Hellish Rebuke has at least some synergy, since you don't have much else to spend your reaction on, but spending your spell slots on damage as a 1/3 caster isn't going to be very productive.

Very true.

[Strill]

It only takes a bonus action to cast, after that it's just there...No, you have to use your bonus action to move it again whenever the target dies.


That 5 HP can get upgraded, and as long as you have AoA cast, if you get temp HP from another source you can apply that temp HP to AoA (by RAW)No you can't. New temporary HP replaces old temporary HP. It's in the rules on temporary HP.

Also, using higher-level spell slots on Armor of Agathys as a 1/3 caster is an even bigger waste. You're short enough on spell slots as it is. Leave the healing to a Cleric with Prayer of Healing.

[DracoKnight]

No, you have to use your bonus action to move it again whenever the target dies.

I know, however in between moving Hex, the damage is free, and thus your bonus action is free.


No you can't. New temporary HP replaces old temporary HP. It's in the rules on temporary HP.

This is what I'm talking about. AoA deals cold damage as long as you have temp HP, it doesn't say that it has to be from the AoA spell.


Also, using higher-level spell slots on Armor of Agathys as a 1/3 caster is an even bigger waste. You're short enough on spell slots as it is. Leave the healing to a Cleric with Prayer of Healing.

What does healing have to do with Armor of Agathys?

[Flashy]

You gain 5 temporary hit points for the duration. If a creature hits you with a melee attack while you have these hit points, the creature takes five cold damage.

It's pretty clear that only the hit points granted by the spell itself deal the cold damage.

[DracoKnight]

It's pretty clear that only the hit points granted by the spell itself deal the cold damage.

My head's having a hard time reconciling that, but okay :P

[Strill]

I know, however in between moving Hex, the damage is free, and thus your bonus action is free.Except that after you've sacrificed your bonus action to cast hex, you still have to avoid losing concentration, and you can't cast any other concentration spells. It's still far from "free".


This is what I'm talking about. AoA deals cold damage as long as you have temp HP, it doesn't say that it has to be from the AoA spell."You gain 5 temporary hit points for the duration. If a creature hits you with a melee attack while you have these hit points, the creature takes 5 cold damage."

"While you have THESE hit points" indicates to me that it doesn't function if you replace those temporary hit points with new ones.


What does healing have to do with Armor of Agathys?Your plan is to use Armor of Agathys for damage? For one, why are you concerned with wasting your spells on damage as a 1/3 caster? Your sustained damage is already high and the additional damage from spells is terribly low compared to what you already do, especially considering how few spells you have per day. If you want more sustained damage, you'd be much better served picking up feats for that.

For two, how much damage is armor of agathys realistically going to do? Five HP means one hit's worth of damage, two at the absolute most. As you level up, enemy damage will quickly increase to the point where even a second-level armor of agathys still only produces one hit's worth of damage. What the heck is the point of wasting your valuable spell slots to do a measly 5 cold damage, when you can't even control where that damage goes? At least you have the choice to use Hellish Rebuke on an enemy you stand a chance at finishing off. Armor of Agathys doesn't even give you that.

[DracoKnight]

Except that after you've sacrificed your bonus action to cast hex, you still have to avoid losing concentration, and you can't cast any other concentration spells. It's still far from "free".

"You gain 5 temporary hit points for the duration. If a creature hits you with a melee attack while you have these hit points, the creature takes 5 cold damage."

"While you have THESE hit points" indicates to me that it doesn't function if you replace those temporary hit points with new ones.

Your plan is to use Armor of Agathys for damage? For one, why are you concerned with wasting your spells on damage as a 1/3 caster? Your sustained damage is already high and the additional damage from spells is terribly low compared to what you already do, especially considering how few spells you have per day. If you want more sustained damage, you'd be much better served picking up feats for that.

For two, how much damage is armor of agathys realistically going to do? Five HP means one hit's worth of damage, two at the absolute most. As you level up, enemy damage will quickly increase to the point where even a second-level armor of agathys still only produces one hit's worth of damage. What the heck is the point of wasting your valuable spell slots to do a measly 5 cold damage, when you can't even control where that damage goes? At least you have the choice to use Hellish Rebuke on an enemy you stand a chance at finishing off. Armor of Agathys doesn't even give you that.

Ah. Well, thanks for clarifying :P

[zinycor]

I mean, I don't think that it's suboptimal. . . You get access to Hex, Armor of Agathys, Hellish Rebuke, Darkness; you don't get the vast utility of the Wizard spell list, but you do get some neat tricks, and Hex works with spell and weapon attacks.

Only one is Enchantment or Illusion so, not good at all for an arcane trickster.

[DracoKnight]

Only one is Enchantment or Illusion so, not good at all for an arcane trickster.

Well, of the first 3 spells that you get, one of them doesn't have to be Enchantment or Illusion. I realize that still limits you, but you can work with it :D