PF - How much cheaper should Construct minions be?

[unseenmage]

Sure PF Constructs are overpriced. They don't get as much/enough bonus hp compared to the hp-by-Cha change Undead got. Their pricing is all over the map but usually too high compared to a) hiring mooks, b) raising undead or even c) generating minions via magic. Though one can command an unlimited number of Construct there's only so much gp to go around.

Found this War Machine Template (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/templates/war-machine-cr-3) over at PFSRD and its seemingly rediculous power levels got me wondering. How much cheaper should/could PF Construct be?

I worked up this sheet comparing all of the PRD and PFSRD Constructs (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1z1GtT5V4Xu2cQHQJXvyE0kxGfr000ngPLQc5XH_IENw/edit?usp=sharing) with both their normal prices and their By CR prices. The pricing by CR is always cheaper. But I am not sure this is a bad thing.


So I guess my question is, does the game break down if Constructs are purely priced by CR? Is that too cheap? Does the game break down if the War Machine (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/templates/war-machine-cr-3) template and its ilk are allowed from the PFSRD?
If those options are overpowered what would you folk do to rectify the pricing?

[noob]

Basically it should work the following way: if you gain a fighter with nothing else than fighting abilities it should be incredibly super cheap.
If you make a caster it should be forbidden because it is too much powerful(it is the same reason why simulacrum and ice assassin should be forbidden).
War machine is cheap because you mostly can not get casters in their spirit and that a creature of your CR -5 should be something given to you when you want because it starts being an obsolete level(they forgot wis and cha based casters existed and so that you could still cast spells with int _)
What is really cheating is a war machine of an apocalypse swarm of a priest swarm(you need only 8+3+1= 12 caster levels higher than the priest to which you apply those templates) for unlimited casting of low level support spells and the creation of a civilization for cheap.
You could do even worse with CL per CR tricks using the drider template to have HD-3 or 6 CL whichever is higher so at level 14 you can create a level 6 caster who splits into two level 6 caster each time it is hit.

[frost890]

I think the reason that they cost so much is that pathfinder went to a money only requirement for making magic items. You no longer have to spend XP for crafting so the only limiting factor now is your wallet size.They are also a bit more useful then you are giving them credit for. why carry the heavy chest when you can tie it to the construct. Why use the wand when you can make a construct run around and use it for you. If your golem can use armor, sword and a shield it will change the dynamic of the game.


As with most things in a game it is HOW you use something that makes it break the game.

[unseenmage]

I think the reason that they cost so much is that pathfinder went to a money only requirement for making magic items. You no longer have to spend XP for crafting so the only limiting factor now is your wallet size.They are also a bit more useful then you are giving them credit for. why carry the heavy chest when you can tie it to the construct. Why use the wand when you can make a construct run around and use it for you. If your golem can use armor, sword and a shield it will change the dynamic of the game.


As with most things in a game it is HOW you use something that makes it break the game.

Except that necromancers and enchanters (mind control I mean) are not subject to the same gp restrictions and they reap all the benefits you refer to, albeit with a troop limit or duration restriction.

Also, PF Constructs are more upgradable. But those have their own intrinsic prices, much like purchasing equipment for a minion does.

[frost890]

Except that necromancers and enchanters (mind control I mean) are not subject to the same gp restrictions and they reap all the benefits you refer to, albeit with a troop limit or duration restriction.


Necromancers are also limited by two other factors. The city and the churches. If you want to walk in to the city with a mob of undead at your back they will probably kill you on site. Even Evil cities will question all the undead. Many churches make a point to hunt undead and those that make them.

Enchanters that have a group under their control have to find people that are skilled enough to survive and weak willed enough to fall under their control. Then they have to keep control of them, you also have to deal with the morals of your party. plus you need to deal with equipping them and it draining your purse. You also asked about constructs not the mind controlled.

[noob]

"I think the reason that they cost so much is that pathfinder went to a money only requirement for making magic items. You no longer have to spend XP for crafting so the only limiting factor now is your wallet size.They are also a bit more useful then you are giving them credit for. why carry the heavy chest when you can tie it to the construct. Why use the wand when you can make a construct run around and use it for you. If your golem can use armor, sword and a shield it will change the dynamic of the game."
No they are not at all worth compared to simulacrum with those you can do all that and have boost spells and healing and 20 wizards casting fireball on one opponent for a fraction of the cost of one construct.
In addition it is never said to be unethical to use them.
While with most constructs you get no spell casting and lower power than three simulacrum of casters.
If you do not remove simulacrum you should think to make all constructs of half the level of the team super cheap since it will be less unbalancing than simulacrum.
Else if you removed simulacrum you still have planar binding(again better at the role of giving for free slaves for you since you just need some check boosting preparation and you enslave everyone)
And then there is finally some stuff like master summoner for having when you want an horde of stuff for breaking action economy.

[Ellowryn]

Slightly off topic, but i also find that the level requirements to construct them is kinda high as well. There is an alchemist archetype that gives effectively craft construct at first level but looking through the bestiary i couldn't find any constructs under CL7 requirement, and most of the basic low CR iconic constructs required CL11 or higher. Add to that the high price and it seems like they don't really want constructs being made in PF.

[Milo v3]

Necromancers are also limited by two other factors. The city and the churches. If you want to walk in to the city with a mob of undead at your back they will probably kill you on site. Even Evil cities will question all the undead. Many churches make a point to hunt undead and those that make them.


Setting specific drawbacks to mechanics do not work, not all settings have those drawbacks.

[Jack_Simth]

So I guess my question is, does the game break down if Constructs are purely priced by CR? Is that too cheap? Does the game break down if the War Machine (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/templates/war-machine-cr-3) template and its ilk are allowed from the PFSRD?
If those options are overpowered what would you folk do to rectify the pricing?
Well, it really should be [some constant] * CR^2, simply because that's the basic pattern of how most (not all) things scale in 3.X and Pathfinder. For whatever reason, however, the permanent minion-generating effects (Simulacrum, Animate Dead, Create [Greater] Undead, construct creation, et cetera), have pretty much always been [some constant] * HD + [other constant], but wildly variable on the constants based on the specific effect. Cleaning that up would be good for game balance... however, figuring out what to use for the constant? That's tricky.

[OPG]

Add to that the high price and it seems like they don't really want constructs being made in PF.

iirc 3.5 had the same problem for the most part. Constructs weren't really an efficient use of feats, gold, or xp except in niche scenarios so I guess it makes sense this holds over in PF.

The closest thing to an exception I guess was an artificer optimized for using homunculi in Eberron, but saying homunculi are like constructs is like saying artificers are like wizards: You are kinda right, but you are much, much more wrong.

[Milo v3]

iirc 3.5 had the same problem for the most part. Constructs weren't really an efficient use of feats, gold, or xp except in niche scenarios so I guess it makes sense this holds over in PF.

The closest thing to an exception I guess was an artificer optimized for using homunculi in Eberron, but saying homunculi are like constructs is like saying artificers are like wizards: You are kinda right, but you are much, much more wrong.

Uh... no. Homunculi are literally constructs. Even the homunculi companion class feature is a construct. Not kinda, it is.

[Ellowryn]

Uh... no. Homunculi are literally constructs. Even the homunculi companion class feature is a construct. Not kinda, it is.

I think what he was getting at was that homunculi are not near the power that golems are. And i did indeed forget about them during my post, but even they have a minimum CL of 7 so its not like you can make them any earlier.

[Coidzor]

Well, it really should be [some constant] * CR^2, simply because that's the basic pattern of how most (not all) things scale in 3.X and Pathfinder. For whatever reason, however, the permanent minion-generating effects (Simulacrum, Animate Dead, Create [Greater] Undead, construct creation, et cetera), have pretty much always been [some constant] * HD + [other constant], but wildly variable on the constants based on the specific effect. Cleaning that up would be good for game balance... however, figuring out what to use for the constant? That's tricky.

Agreed. Very tricky.


I think what he was getting at was that homunculi are not near the power that golems are. And i did indeed forget about them during my post, but even they have a minimum CL of 7 so its not like you can make them any earlier.

There's also the built in drawback where each one that is destroyed deals damage to the master. And, IIRC, killing the master destroys all of them.

[Jack_Simth]

Agreed. Very tricky.... actually, thinking back, I've got the formula wrong. A minion of your own CR under your control should eat up most, if not all, of your Wealth By Level. Why? Theoretically, fully equipped, you are a creature of a CR equal to your level (possibly slightly higher). If you are not severely crippled by the act of getting a minion at your CR, then you've just doubled your character power (or nearly so) - two sets of actions, both of which are (nearly) fully effective. When one choice doubles your character's power with no meaningful drawback, that's a game balance problem. Thus, the act of getting a minion of your own CR needs to cripple your character, and so it should cost basically all of your WBL to pull it off.

Given that, it should cost about 119.26 gp to get a CR 1 minion (average of Starting Wealth for 1st level characters (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final#Table-Starting-Character-Wealth), rounded to the nearest copper), 1,000 gp to get a CR 2 minion, 3,000 gp to get a CR 3 minion, and so on, just taking the entries for the PC WBL chart (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/character-advancement#TOC-Table-Character-Advancement-and-Level-Dependent-Bonuses) as the cost to create a construct (or controlled undead, or simulacrum, or ... ) of that final CR. Note that this should be the cost to get it, not the market price. So for a golem (or other construct), that number is the cost to create. For an undead, that's the cost of the animation spell. For a simulacrum, that's the component cost for the ritual - and so on. Market price is going to be twice that. Note that this does not apply to temporary minions - such as summons, planar bindings, planar allies, and so on - this is just for permanent minions.

By that logic, most minionomancy effects are ludicrously underpriced at the moment... including golem construction. The CR 10 Clay Golem (current construction cost: 21.5k) should cost about 62k to build (WBL for 10th), and market at 124k, or thereabouts. Animating a Cloud Giant as a skeleton (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/undead/skeleton-medium/skeleton-giant-cloud) should have a material components cost for the spell of about 23,500 gp (WBL for 7th, as the skeleton cloud giant is CR 7). Not sure what the CR adjustment of the Simulacrum template should be, but I'm sure you get the idea.

Probably not the direction the OP wanted things to go, but that's where my logic leads me.

[unseenmage]

... actually, thinking back, I've got the formula wrong. A minion of your own CR under your control should eat up most, if not all, of your Wealth By Level. Why? Theoretically, fully equipped, you are a creature of a CR equal to your level (possibly slightly higher). If you are not severely crippled by the act of getting a minion at your CR, then you've just doubled your character power (or nearly so) - two sets of actions, both of which are (nearly) fully effective. When one choice doubles your character's power with no meaningful drawback, that's a game balance problem. Thus, the act of getting a minion of your own CR needs to cripple your character, and so it should cost basically all of your WBL to pull it off.

Given that, it should cost about 119.26 gp to get a CR 1 minion (average of Starting Wealth for 1st level characters (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final#Table-Starting-Character-Wealth), rounded to the nearest copper), 1,000 gp to get a CR 2 minion, 3,000 gp to get a CR 3 minion, and so on, just taking the entries for the PC WBL chart (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/character-advancement#TOC-Table-Character-Advancement-and-Level-Dependent-Bonuses) as the cost to create a construct (or controlled undead, or simulacrum, or ... ) of that final CR. Note that this should be the cost to get it, not the market price. So for a golem (or other construct), that number is the cost to create. For an undead, that's the cost of the animation spell. For a simulacrum, that's the component cost for the ritual - and so on. Market price is going to be twice that. Note that this does not apply to temporary minions - such as summons, planar bindings, planar allies, and so on - this is just for permanent minions.

By that logic, most minionomancy effects are ludicrously underpriced at the moment... including golem construction. The CR 10 Clay Golem (current construction cost: 21.5k) should cost about 62k to build (WBL for 10th), and market at 124k, or thereabouts. Animating a Cloud Giant as a skeleton (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/undead/skeleton-medium/skeleton-giant-cloud) should have a material components cost for the spell of about 23,500 gp (WBL for 7th, as the skeleton cloud giant is CR 7). Not sure what the CR adjustment of the Simulacrum template should be, but I'm sure you get the idea.

Probably not the direction the OP wanted things to go, but that's where my logic leads me.

For simulacrum or anything else that gets spellcasting I'd agree. But nonspellcasting minions do not equal spellcasting minions.

[Coidzor]

... actually, thinking back, I've got the formula wrong. A minion of your own CR under your control should eat up most, if not all, of your Wealth By Level. Why? Theoretically, fully equipped, you are a creature of a CR equal to your level (possibly slightly higher). If you are not severely crippled by the act of getting a minion at your CR, then you've just doubled your character power (or nearly so) - two sets of actions, both of which are (nearly) fully effective. When one choice doubles your character's power with no meaningful drawback, that's a game balance problem. Thus, the act of getting a minion of your own CR needs to cripple your character, and so it should cost basically all of your WBL to pull it off.

Given that, it should cost about 119.26 gp to get a CR 1 minion (average of Starting Wealth for 1st level characters (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final#Table-Starting-Character-Wealth), rounded to the nearest copper), 1,000 gp to get a CR 2 minion, 3,000 gp to get a CR 3 minion, and so on, just taking the entries for the PC WBL chart (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/character-advancement#TOC-Table-Character-Advancement-and-Level-Dependent-Bonuses) as the cost to create a construct (or controlled undead, or simulacrum, or ... ) of that final CR. Note that this should be the cost to get it, not the market price. So for a golem (or other construct), that number is the cost to create. For an undead, that's the cost of the animation spell. For a simulacrum, that's the component cost for the ritual - and so on. Market price is going to be twice that. Note that this does not apply to temporary minions - such as summons, planar bindings, planar allies, and so on - this is just for permanent minions.

By that logic, most minionomancy effects are ludicrously underpriced at the moment... including golem construction. The CR 10 Clay Golem (current construction cost: 21.5k) should cost about 62k to build (WBL for 10th), and market at 124k, or thereabouts. Animating a Cloud Giant as a skeleton (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/undead/skeleton-medium/skeleton-giant-cloud) should have a material components cost for the spell of about 23,500 gp (WBL for 7th, as the skeleton cloud giant is CR 7). Not sure what the CR adjustment of the Simulacrum template should be, but I'm sure you get the idea.

Probably not the direction the OP wanted things to go, but that's where my logic leads me.

You'd also want to determine what fraction of a PC a character that only has the base chassis of a creature of CR X would be, since special abilities do rule the roost, I think.

[Jack_Simth]

For simulacrum or anything else that gets spellcasting I'd agree. But nonspellcasting minions do not equal spellcasting minions.
That's fixable by correcting CR of the various beasties to an appropriate number. The main reason that spellcasting minions > nonspellcasting minions is that the spellcasting minions can do a lot more, including in a 'normal' fight. Fix the CR listings and you fix the need for an adjustment.

[noob]

Except true adventurers are casters and others are so much weak they are not worth at all what they carry and I think that I will pay at most 10 GP for a level 15 fighter while I would pay 100000000000000 GP for a level 15 caster.

[Jack_Simth]

You'd also want to determine what fraction of a PC a character that only has the base chassis of a creature of CR X would be, since special abilities do rule the roost, I think.
Yes & no. Yes, it's reasonable to make that sort of adjustment when duplicating classed stuff... however, you're also crippling your main character (no Tome and no Headband means almost everything makes it's save; no Belt of Dex means that you miss a lot more; no Belt of Con means that those d4 hit dice are going to hurt on occasion; no purchasing spells for your spellbook means you've got a lot less flexibility; and so on). But yes, a non-equipped PC of level X is going to be some CR of X-Y. What to put for Y is an open question.