My DM wants to run a dragon campaign.

[Demonikus Aber]

After a Total Party Death to a dragon well within our CR range, my DM realized the potential for dragons in his world. He has a player built kingdom that was so well built, he is resorting to dragons to take care of it. Anyhow, there is three players, and the DM. One is playing a Pyroclastic Dragon, and The other player is playing a Shadow Dragon. We wanted to keep the dragons extra-planer, but any dragon will do! My question is what would be the best dragon to play in accompaniment to a Pyroclastic & Shadow Dragon.

[Nifft]

The Tartarus planar dragon is pretty good.

Hellfire Wyrm could be adapted into a full draconic progression.

Half-Fiend Silver Dragon might be fun.

[Draconium]

Any dragon you want, really. While their exact abilities do vary from breed to breed, they all retain similar characteristics to one another, so it's more of a question of fluff and what you want to be.

If I may ask, how exactly are you handling the LA and RHD? That could be useful information to know.

[frost890]

Prismatic from the epic level handbook. :biggrin:
But depending on how the GM is using LA you can be anything. Are you doing character classes or just dragon levels? A dragon monk, adding their wisdom ups the ac a lot as you age. Which brings up what age category are you? this will determine a lot about your character. From LA to the abilities you have. If none of the dragons can change form it might be hard finding a store open for you to buy things from.

[Rubik]

Dragonwrought RotD web enhancement kobold. You are a true dragon, and you can actually take class levels without bothering with LA! And if you get free LA, take some draconic templates to give your abilities a serious boost.

You could be the Rocket Raccoon of the party.

[Uncle Pine]

Dragonwrought RotD web enhancement kobold. You are a true dragon, and you can actually take class levels without bothering with LA! And if you get free LA, take some draconic templates to give your abilities a serious boost.

You could be the Rocket Raccoon of the party.

Or you could start as a Venerable Dragonwrought kobold at 1st level and become the Colossal Rocket Raccoon of the party at 4th level (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/dragonAdvanced.htm).

[Rubik]

Or you could start as a Venerable Dragonwrought kobold at 1st level and become the Colossal Rocket Raccoon of the party at 4th level (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/dragonAdvanced.htm).Or count as both Fine AND Colossal by 7th. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?132294-Tiny-Von-BigMcLargeHuge) (Qualify via Human Heritage feat.)

I suggest taking the soulbound warrior ACF. Take Expansion at 2nd level and Compression at 3rd.

[Draconium]

Dragonwrought Kobolds... I'm pretty sure that's not what the OP was asking about. :smallannoyed: I personally don't consider them True Dragons, even if they might qualify as one mechanically.

Regardless, I think the OP wants to play a more... classic dragon. Whether Chromatic, Metallic, Gem, Extraplaner, or otherwise. I have a few recommendations, but I want to see how the group's handling the dragons specifically before I post them.

[Rubik]

Tome dragon, maybe? Take levels in loremaster.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Note: if that pyroclastic dragon focuses on his breath weapon be prepared for some shortened encounters.

I am always up for recommending the arcane dragons. I am particularly fond of tome dragons (such silky manes). They have weak attack options and fly slowly but have always good manuverability and much faster casting progression.

Edit: typo and was partially ninja'd.

[darksolitaire]

Dragonwrought Kobolds... I'm pretty sure that's not what the OP was asking about. :smallannoyed:

Any advice which includes dragonwrought kobols should be taken as elaborate joke. :smalltongue:

[Draconium]

Any advice which includes dragonwrought kobols should be taken as elaborate joke. :smalltongue:

You're probably right, but it irks me whenever Dragonwrought gets brought up in a discussion about True Dragons. I think that if you have to take a feat to qualify as a dragon in the first place, then there's no way in hell you should be able to qualify as a True Dragon like that. That's just my opinion, of course.

[Rubik]

You're probably right, but it irks me whenever Dragonwrought gets brought up in a discussion about True Dragons. I think that if you have to take a feat to qualify as a dragon in the first place, then there's no way in hell you should be able to qualify as a True Dragon like that. That's just my opinion, of course.They literally count as every possible definition of True Dragon. You not LIKING that is something else altogether.


Any advice which includes dragonwrought kobols should be taken as elaborate joke. :smalltongue:So elaborate, in fact, that you might even be able to take the advice and make it work, and we'd laugh at your effectiveness for being abnormal.*






*Abnormally high

[Draconium]

They literally count as every possible definition of True Dragon. You not LIKING that is something else altogether.

Actually, I'm pretty sure there was a list of True Dragons in Races of the Dragon starting on page 69, or something like that. I believe the text preceding it stated that the list included all True Dragons published by WotC by that point, and that it superseded all previous True Dragon definitions from previous material. I don't remember Dragonwrought Kobolds being on that list, though.

[Rubik]

Actually, I'm pretty sure there was a list of True Dragons in Races of the Dragon starting on page 69, or something like that. I believe the text preceding it stated that the list included all True Dragons published by WotC by that point, and that it superseded all previous True Dragon definitions from previous material. I don't remember Dragonwrought Kobolds being on that list, though.It couldn't be an exhaustive list. There are lots of true dragons that the list literally couldn't include, some because they're 3rd party, and some because they didn't exist until after the list was made. It's just like the list of base classes in Core. Are the crusader and psion not base classes because they're not in the PHB?

[ZamielVanWeber]

Could we please not derail this thread with another debate on whether or not DWK are true dragons? There will never be consensus on the issue so rehashing it will not do us any favores.

[Draconium]

It couldn't be an exhaustive list. There are lots of true dragons that the list literally couldn't include, some because they're 3rd party, and some because they didn't exist until after the list was made. It's just like the list of base classes in Core. Are the crusader and psion not base classes because they're not in the PHB?

I think the list could have included something that appeared in the same book as it, though.

However, like it was said, this isn't a thread about whether DWK are or are not True Dragons. Let's just drop it for now.

[Uncle Pine]

Dragonwrought Kobolds... I'm pretty sure that's not what the OP was asking about. :smallannoyed: I personally don't consider them True Dragons, even if they might qualify as one mechanically.


You're probably right, but it irks me whenever Dragonwrought gets brought up in a discussion about True Dragons. I think that if you have to take a feat to qualify as a dragon in the first place, then there's no way in hell you should be able to qualify as a True Dragon like that. That's just my opinion, of course.


They literally count as every possible definition of True Dragon. You not LIKING that is something else altogether.


Actually, I'm pretty sure there was a list of True Dragons in Races of the Dragon starting on page 69, or something like that. I believe the text preceding it stated that the list included all True Dragons published by WotC by that point, and that it superseded all previous True Dragon definitions from previous material. I don't remember Dragonwrought Kobolds being on that list, though.


It couldn't be an exhaustive list. There are lots of true dragons that the list literally couldn't include, some because they're 3rd party, and some because they didn't exist until after the list was made. It's just like the list of base classes in Core. Are the crusader and psion not base classes because they're not in the PHB?

As common whenever kobolds are mentioned, you're making unnecessary assumptions about the topic that's being discussed: this isn't the place to argue whether Dragonwrought kobolds count as true dragons or not.


After a Total Party Death to a dragon well within our CR range, my DM realized the potential for dragons in his world. He has a player built kingdom that was so well built, he is resorting to dragons to take care of it. Anyhow, there is three players, and the DM. One is playing a Pyroclastic Dragon, and The other player is playing a Shadow Dragon. We wanted to keep the dragons extra-planer, but any dragon will do! My question is what would be the best dragon to play in accompaniment to a Pyroclastic & Shadow Dragon.

The OP specifically asked a suggestion on what kind of dragon to play in a dragon campaign, so until we're given more information any playable dragon (true or not) is fair game. Dragonwrought kobolds are definitely dragons and depending on the level the game will start at are a reasonable way to start as a very big and scary dragon without having an excessive ECL. Also, since the OP said he'd prefer an extraplanar dragon, a [insert your favourite extraplanar template here] kobold might work better (i.e. a fiendish one).

[Rubik]

Fiendish, celestial, shadow, woodling, vivacious, axiomatic, pseudonatural... There are lots and lots of different templates that can be applied.

[icefractal]

At this point, we may as well suggest he play a Necropolitan Gray Elf StP Erudite who happens to be named "True Dragon". It would fit in with the rest of the party about equally well as the Kobold, and it would undoubtedly be effective.

I'm not saying it's wrong to mention Dragonwrought Kobold - hey, perhaps the OP does want to play more of a Wizard than a Dragon. But it's taken over the whole thread, and while technically correct, it's not what most people think of as the Dragon experience. Can we move on?

On that topic: What starting and ending levels are we talking about here?

[Ruethgar]

Any of the 10 MMI Hatchling dragons or the DWK would be better than any other dragon you could play if RHD and LA are in play. You can even buy off the half dragon template easily for 3k with the Draconic class. Bronze and Silver are the two best hatchlings, mechanically, but i would go with aesthetics for dragon characters in general. I just happen to like Bronze a lot.

An dog croc is about the size of a large iguana and thus fits the description for a MMI lizard. Awaken that baby and take half dragon and Dragon Wings and you can Be a pretty resilient dragon with 3RHD -3k XP and ECL 0. Then it is completely a matter of your classes as to what flavor dragon you want to be. To complement fire, earth, and shadow, I would go for undeath. Not necessarily a necromancer, but take both Undead Leadership feats and Leadership for a decent army or small village.

Edit: As to the DWK, it is a true dragon. Even if the list in RotD is exhaustive and overwrites the arguably more primary source of Dracinomicon, all true dragons published to date does not include RotD as it was not published at time of writing and is thus not included defaulting back to previous definitions which the DWK fits entirely.

[Uncle Pine]

This handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?303204-The-Truest-of-the-True-A-Handbook-to-non-Kobold-Dragons-(WIP)) could also be useful, if the OP hasn't read it yet.

[Heliomance]

Or count as both Fine AND Colossal by 7th. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?132294-Tiny-Von-BigMcLargeHuge) (Qualify via Human Heritage feat.)

I suggest taking the soulbound warrior ACF. Take Expansion at 2nd level and Compression at 3rd.

That doesn't seem to do that at all. Expansion and Compression are actual size changes. You wind up with a character that, through a combination of actual and virtual changes, can count as any three consecutive size categories simultaneously, I think. You certainly don't get to be Fine and Colossal at the same time. You can be any size, not every size.