Mutants and Masterminds 3e: Character Creation Advice.

[Azreal]

I'm not very familiar with the system, but I was told power level 9 is where we are starting.
I want to make a character similar Colossus from X-Men, but able to switch to liquid/energy forms on top of the metal one. We are supposed to be "street-level" based supers.

I get how to buy and everything I guess I'm just asking for advice on what powers to pick up, and where to place my Attributes roughly at.

[Quellian-dyrae]

Abilities (i.e. Strength, Stamina, Fighting, etc) are somewhat iffy in M&M, because they're really just packages of points. Generally speaking, you don't want to use Abilities the way you would in a normal RPG, to try to describe your character's physical and mental attributes. I know that's what they're supposed to be for, but they do a terrible job at it, especially if you just kinda give varying human-level values to a wide number of them. Generally speaking, you cover the flavor you want for your character better by purchasing the traits a la carte. If you want everything an Ability gives you, though, some of them are solid. It basically works out like this:

Strength: Actually gives you a little more than it costs, so worth it if you want it. High Strength opens up Grab (and its related Advantages) as a viable combat option, which can be quite powerful. You do have to be somewhat careful if using Strength to make sure you're not paying twice for your attack options. As a Colossus-type, you'll probably want PL-appropriate Strength.

Stamina: Worth every point you put in it, guaranteed. The Gold Standard of Abilities. Also generally the most advantageous way to buy Toughness, and since Debilitated Stamina is one of the few things in the game that can knock you straight to Dying status, it's a solid investment.

Agility: Counting initiative, worth slightly more than it costs. Everything it gives you is solid if you plan to use it. If you want to make a ninja/thief type character, it's a solid Ability. If you don't plan to take full advantage of Stealth and Acrobatics, you're better off leaving it 0 and buying the aspects you want a la carte. For a Colossus style character, probably just leave at 0.

Dexterity: Competes with Presence for worst Ability in the game. Makes you overpay for attack bonus*, and boosts two of the game's least-useful skills. Pretend it doesn't exist.

Fighting: Makes you overpay for attack bonus*. Best to avoid.

Intellect: Actually has a special effect of its own - Intellect, in conjunction with Jack of All Trades or Eidetic Memory, is basically Expertise (All). If you want to be a know it all, get it and either make sure you have Jack of All Trades (since Int skills are all Trained Only), or apply Reduced Trait to the skills you don't use. But probably not necessary for a Colossus character unless you want to play up the Genius Bruiser archetype.

Awareness: Perfectly solid. Will and Perception are always good, and Insight usually is (although Deception can be used as a poor-man's Insight in some cases). You generally won't regret points placed here.

Presence: Probably the worst Ability in the game. It is the only benefit that outright gives you less benefit than it costs (Fighting and Dexterity do as well, but they at least pretend not to). Only made worse by the fact that you're generally better off with one high social skill than three mediocre ones. Avoid like the plague.

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*If you are paying more than 1 real PP per +2 to attack rolls with every attack you intend to make, you're overpaying. M&M's system of having different types of attack bonus is intrinsically flawed, because you control what you attack with 99% of the time. 100% for unarmed fighters. Here's how it breaks down:

If your character isn't a fighter themselves, but can fight with their powers: You just create an array of all of your attack powers, and either get the Close/Ranged Combat skill keyed to that array (if they are all the same range), or make any targeted attacks in the array Accurate (if different ranges).

If your character fights with a single, specific weapon: You take Close or Ranged Combat skills for that weapon.

If your character fights unarmed: You take Close Combat (Unarmed). If you also want to be able to grab, you take the Fast Grab Advantage. Elongation with unarmed strikes is actually better than most ranged attacks, hilariously enough

If your character is supposed to be good with any melee weapon it picks up: You take Damage X (Accurate X, Variable Descriptor [Physical]). The descriptor for this power is [Skill], but if you're really worried about Nullifies you may also wish to make it Innate. Note that since the weapons here are fluff rather than actual mechanical equipment, Quick Draw is not required. Your array of attack powers then improves this attack.

As above, but you also want to throw knives and stuff: Take an alternate power of the above Damage that is Enhanced Throwing Mastery X; Enhanced Ranged Combat (Thrown) X.

If you want to be good at any weapon, melee or ranged: As above, but add like Multiattack or a Linked Affliction or something, and make the alternate power simple Damage X (Ranged, Accurate X, Variable Descriptor [Physical]).

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Abilities and attack bonus are probably the main places where you have serious "trap" options. That is, things that cost more than they should but don't provide either a mechanical benefit or a fluff purpose (there are other options in the game that are less than optimal mechanically, but still great fluff, so it's counter-productive to advise against them). Although Shrinking is probably better done by taking a Feature and a Complication (plus the traits you want) than the actual Shrinking power, but I don't expect that will matter much to you :smallamused:.

"Backup" attack modes (like, having two separate, non-arrayed Damage powers) are generally too expensive to bother with. If you're really worried about it, you're usually better off investing the points in a form of attack that can't be taken from you in the first place.

Having all defenses at PL is a good thing, but you can generally drop a full defensive PL or even two and be okay, just squishy. Be very wary about going more than two PL down defensively, or making any single defense more than 5 points below your PL. Targeting different defenses is easy.

Since Impervious is a classic for a Colossus-type character, I'd suggest taking it in an array with something else, since Impervious is super-niche and very easy to get around. Great when it works though. On it's own it's overpriced, but arrayed with a more generally-useful defensive power it's a great option to have in your pocket.

Be cautious if using Regeneration, Healing, Summon, Sidekick, Minions, Metamorph, or Variable. These powers can make things hard on a GM. This doesn't mean avoid them out of hand if they suit your concept, just use with care. Taking some degree of care with Senses (particularly in areas of multiple Extended applications and Penetrates Concealment) will also save your GM headaches in the long run.

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I...think that should be a pretty solid "don't glaringly waste points, don't accidentally break the game" overview. Hope it helps!

[Azreal]

Okay getting Strength, Stamina, Agility, and Awareness for attributes

Skill up for Unarmed if I want to punch things (and I do)
-Any other skills I should look into closer?

-For powers themselves I didn't see anything like metal form how would I go about doing that?
-Is insubstantial the only way to do Liquid/Energy forms?
-Is there any power I should pay closer attention to for making a bruiser type?

[Quellian-dyrae]

Skill up for Unarmed if I want to punch things (and I do)
-Any other skills I should look into closer?

That's more based on your character. The physical skills have trouble competing against powers, but they do have their niches, and most of the mental/social skills are solid if they fit your concept. Big thing with skills is, you're usually better off having a few "solid to good" skills (i.e. at PL or above) than a bunch of low to mediocre skills.


-For powers themselves I didn't see anything like metal form how would I go about doing that?

You'd get things like Protection, Enhanced Strength, and other powers that fit. The metal form is just the descriptor.


-Is insubstantial the only way to do Liquid/Energy forms?

It's...definitely the easiest way anyway. You could probably patchwork them together with other powers if you really put your mind to it, but it'd probably be both messier and more expensive.


-Is there any power I should pay closer attention to for making a bruiser type?

Not really, bruisers are pretty straightforward. Getting a few Alternate Powers off your Strength damage to give yourself some more options in combat is a good idea generally. Just make sure they're all just variations on punching so you can use your Close Combat skill with them and you're solid.

[Anonymouswizard]

To expand on Presence a bit, even if you do want three social skills it is more efficient to drop Presence to -5 than not to, because there is no limit to the number of ranks you can have in a skill, only the total bonus. So by dropping Presence to -5 you get the three social skills maxed out at 37.5 power points, saving yourself 2.5 PP.

Low dodge and parry can be made up for by taking a high toughness, there is no way to make up for a low Fortitude or Will. It's also far more efficient to bump up toughness than it is to bump up dodge or parry.

Arrays are a massive point saver, so for example, for an array of forms:
-Metal form: protection X+enhanced Strengh Y(+other traits)+activation. Cost: X+2Y(+cost of other traits)-2.
-Liquid form: Insubstantial 1+other traits+activation, up to metal form cost. Cost: 1.
-Energy form: Insubstantial 3+other traits+activation, up to metal form cost. Cost: 1.

It's a bit munchkiny, as you link all the traits from a form together, but it's the best way to represent multiple forms (and it only saves a few points anyway). if you want to be able to switch without an action, just leave out the activation limitation.

Remember that unarmed covers kicking and grappling as well as punches.

Out of interest, I've never understood if this is correct, but if I had stamina 10 and wanted impervious toughness 10, would I just pay 10 points for it?

[Quellian-dyrae]

Worth noting, taking negative Abilities, while it is point-efficient in some cases, is usually something best avoided unless it really fits the character. I'm a pretty permissive GM, but even so, I'd look pretty askance at a PC who came in with Presence -5 and all maxed social skills. Also makes you super-vulnerable to the right type of Weaken, from a more strategic standpoint.

The array, though, I wouldn't call munchkiny at all. That sort of thing is exactly what arrays are meant to do.


Out of interest, I've never understood if this is correct, but if I had stamina 10 and wanted impervious toughness 10, would I just pay 10 points for it?

That is correct. Basically you're taking Enhanced Trait (Impervious on ten ranks of Toughness).

[Beleriphon]

Okay getting Strength, Stamina, Agility, and Awareness for attributes

Skill up for Unarmed if I want to punch things (and I do)
-Any other skills I should look into closer?

-For powers themselves I didn't see anything like metal form how would I go about doing that?
-Is insubstantial the only way to do Liquid/Energy forms?
-Is there any power I should pay closer attention to for making a bruiser type?

Insubstantial is the best option of liquid/energy. I'd use the Insubstantial Rank 3 with the Progressive extra (it takes three turns to go from liquid to energy). I'd make the sold form group of powers something like Enhanced Strength, Enhanced Stamina, Impervious and maybe Protection. You could then AE the other forms off of the the solid form, or vice versa depending on costs.

[Azreal]

Arrays are a massive point saver, so for example, for an array of forms:


Is an array like a lump group of powers or how exactly does that work?

[Cazero]

Is an array like a lump group of powers or how exactly does that work?

Array are supposed to be different 'settings' for a specific power, but the line can be blurry quickly, for example if every single power of your character are clearly coming from the same source. In essence, the base idea of an array is that you can choose wich setting you use each turn, but can't use two different settings at the same time. The most expensive setting is called the base effect and you have to pay it in full, but each other setting is called an alternate effect and cost only 1PP.

The obvious idea is to try to put all of your offensive effects in an array to save points since PL indirectly makes them all cost about the same. But Quellian-dyrae is an array artist and can suggest tons of other possibilities.

[Anonymouswizard]

Worth noting, taking negative Abilities, while it is point-efficient in some cases, is usually something best avoided unless it really fits the character. I'm a pretty permissive GM, but even so, I'd look pretty askance at a PC who came in with Presence -5 and all maxed social skills. Also makes you super-vulnerable to the right type of Weaken, from a more strategic standpoint.

I never said it was better, I just said it was more efficient (it's really not worth the 2.5 points)


That is correct. Basically you're taking Enhanced Trait (Impervious on ten ranks of Toughness).

Cool, because that's never actually explained.


Is an array like a lump group of powers or how exactly does that work?

An array is a group of alternate effects. You create an array by making the 'core' power, and totalling up the cost for that, including all enhancements and limitations. Then you can apply as many alternate effects as you want to it, and each alternate effect is worth 1 point (no matter how powerful), but cannot exceed the cost of the core power. In normal arrays you can only use one effect at a time. So if Chilldude had the array of ice objects (create 10)/ice shards(blast 10)/ice armour (impervious protection 10) he could use one at a time.

Dymanic arrays let you share PP between effects. So if all of Chilldude's array were dynamic alternate effects with the same PP cost he could have any of them active at any time, as long as the total ranks active don't exceed 10. So he could trap an enemy while protecting himself and shooting ice and another enemy. In some ways it's the poor man's variable (although far easier to work with, do not use variable without system mastery).

[Quellian-dyrae]

An array is a power with a selection of Alternate Effects. You pay the full cost for the main power, and then 1 point for each alternate power. Each alternate power can have an equal point cost to the main power, so if your main power costs 20 points, each alternate power costs you 1 PP, but is itself a power worth up to 20 points.

However, you can only use one power in the array at a time. Swapping to a new one is a free action which you may do once per round on your turn. So arrays aren't good for like, Enhanced Toughness in one slot and Enhanced Dodge in another, because you want to be able to both dodge and resist attacks at the same time. The primary use for arrays is to have multiple different attack forms or other standard action combat options, like maybe a Multiattack Damage power, and a Damage Linked Affliction, and an Area Weaken, etc.

Powers in arrays do have to be kinda thematically related. They're basically different "settings" of the same capability.

Some amount of array use is entirely expected, but there does come a point where they can get to be too much. The exact line varies by GM. What I've found, generally, is that the following rough rules of thumb usually work for kinda a "main combat" array:

An array with a point value of roughly 3.5 PP/PL, or less.
With up to five alternate powers.
That cover no more than two cohesive "roles".

For example, a PL 10 character with a 35 point array with 5 alternate powers, that are all basically "attack" and "battlefield control" powers, is probably okay. You can kinda tweak the numbers some. An array worth fewer points might be okay with another alternate power or two, or maybe with a third role. An array that's only straight attack powers might be able to get another alternate or some more points. And so on.

Generally speaking, using arrays for skills is a bad idea. Steps on the toes of people who invest actual points in their skills, which most do. Likewise, be very cautious about putting utility powers in a combat array. As another rule of thumb, powers can probably fit together in an array if you would expect to want to use them all in the same scene, but not all in the same round. So like, a Damage power and a Deflect power are solid choices to array with each other; you'd use both in combat. But a Damage power and a Remote Viewing power is more iffy, because you'd generally use Damage in a combat scene and Remote Viewing in a downtime or investigation scene.

Again, though, that's all just kinda general "this has worked for me" advice. You'll want to talk with your GM to see where he or she draws the line.

[Beleriphon]

Is an array like a lump group of powers or how exactly does that work?

An array is a group of related powers that have a bunch of settings. A good example might be Ice Man. He does a bunch of cool (eh, eh) stuff with his ice powers. He can make statues, freeze guys to the group, shoot icicles or give Magneto the cold shoulder (boooooo!). In M&M you could build all of those as separate effects/powers but it would probably be really expensive. Instead Iceman's player Bobby picks the most expensive of those effects to the be main one and each of the other powers costs one point with the limitation that he can only use one of them at time.

To use an example of Iceman

Icy Constructs: Continuous Innate Create 8 (25 points)
- Icy Blast: Ranged Damage 9 (18 points) (1 point spent)
- Freeze Ray: Ranged Affliction 9 (18 points) (1 point spent)
- Ice Slide: Flight 2 - Flaw Platform (2 points) (1 point spent)

Your total cost for that Array is now 28 points, rather than 63. But Iceman can't use his flight, his Constructs or his Blast at the same time. He can pick and choose round to round but he can only change which one he uses once per round.

[Sith_Happens]

Generally speaking, using arrays for skills is a bad idea. Steps on the toes of people who invest actual points in their skills, which most do.

...And then there's me, the guy who found out that doing a character whose shtick is "'Have ALL the Intellect-based skills!!!' + actual powers" is only possible by going full cheese on the first part and using Variable. To be fair the above problem doesn't exist as my PC is the only one in the group with any skills to speak of anyways, though, and even then I still feel bad about it.:smallredface: