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Lolth
2007-05-22, 10:38 AM
OK, so two things. 1. Drow is not optional, and 2. neither are Class choices!

First person to tell me to make a Wizard instead will get spiders where it itches. :xykon:

That said, here's my current effort at an interesting and versatile PC. Suggestions (within guidelines) very welcome:

Note: Leap Attack is banned, so no taking that, alas. But I wanted to try some of the new Drow book goodness, and two-weapon with this one.


E'tsavra's subtle accent and evident dark humor mark him as a stranger to Erelhei Vaendryl. Typically drow features include close-cropped ivory hair and moody crimson eyes, coupled with an easy, supple grace. Elegantly attired in muted, intricately patterned raw silks, rare leathers and glittering mithril.


E'tsavra Despana

Drow Fighter 1, Rogue 1

Strength 14
Dexterity 18
Constitution 12
Intelligence 16
Wisdom 8
Charisma 10

Hit Points: 13

Languages: Abyssal, Common, Draconic, Drow Sign, Elvish and Undercommon.

Skills: Appraise 2(+5), Balance 5(+11), Bluff 4(+4), Gather Information 2(+2), Hide 4(+8), Jump 5(+9), Knowledge (Local) 2(+5), Listen 4(+5), Move Silently 4(+8), Search 0(+5), Sleight of Hand 4(+8), Spot 4(+5), Tumble 5(+11), Use Magic Device 4(+4)

Feats: Two-Weapon Fighting, Weapon Finesse, Quick Draw.

Flaw: Weak Will.

Racial Abilities: Darkvision 120', Immunity to Sleep spells and effects, +2 Saving Throw bonus against Enchantment spells or effects, +2 bonus on Will Saves against spells and spell-like abilities, Spell-Like Abilities (Dancing Lights, Darkness, Faerie Fire 1/day), +2 bonus on (Listen, Search and Spot) checks, Search roll to detect secret doors within 5', Light Blindness. Level Adjustment +2 (uses Drow Racial Class Levels).

Class Abilities: Fighter (Bonus Feats, Hit-and-Run Tactics), Rogue (Poison Use, Sneak Attack +1d6)

Attacks: Base Attack Bonus +1, Melee +3, Ranged +5

Saves: Fortitude 2(+3), Reflex 2(+6), Will 0(-4)


Equipment: Mithril Chain Shirt, MW Shortswords (2), Daggers (2), Hand Crossbow.

Hidden: Garrote.

Consumables: Bolts (20), Oil Magic Weapon (2), Potions CLW+1 (2).

Poisons: Drow Knockout (2), Roach Paste (2).

Wealth: 5 platinum, 20 gold.


Additional Feats: F2/L3 – Combat Reflexes or Improved Initiative, Weapon Focus; F4 – Weapon Specialization; L6 – Telling Blow; L9 – Melee Weapon Mastery; F6 – Improved Critical.

Kel_Arath
2007-05-22, 03:03 PM
Looks good, quick question though (I guess it could be seen as a comment too) I'm gonna go ahead and guess that by "Hit-and-run tactics" your refering to doge, mobility, spring attack.(?)

Person_Man
2007-05-22, 03:14 PM
Can you use a Rogue/Swashbuckler instead? You get Weapon Finesse for free, lower your Str and put it into Int for more Skills (remember, Swash get Int to damage), and with the Daring Outlaw feat, your Swash and Rogue levels stack for Sneak Attack progression.

Also, if for whatever bizzare reason you need to play a Drow and don't care about the +2 LA which kills your build, I hope you are using LA buyoff (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/unearthedRaces.html) or the transition class (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040319a) which allows you to use a slightly weaker version of the race for only +1 LA.

Also, Quickdraw is a pretty useless feat unless you're using a very specific build. You don't even have iterative attacks yet! If for some reason you need to be always armed, I suggest you take Improved Unarmed Strike, which is superior because you are always wearing your magical gauntlets, they can't be disarmed, and they work with both Power Attack and Weapon Finesse.

In terms of stats, you can lower your Str to whatever you need just to carry your equiptment, dump Cha to as low as possible, and put the extra points into Dex and Con.

Spiryt
2007-05-22, 03:17 PM
Dunno, it's looks fine, if you will find some good alternative damage sources (besides sneak att) it will be quite deadly.
This wisdom however... and flaw... Such will save looks like suicide.

Jasdoif
2007-05-22, 03:20 PM
Looks like your skills are off. You have 49 ranks, which matches with a rogue 1/fighter 1 with 16 Int if all your ranks are class; but Balance and Tumble are cross-class for a Fighter so you'd have to spend two skill points each to have them at 5 ranks.

Dark_Wind
2007-05-22, 03:23 PM
Make a Sorceror instead. :tongue:

Seriously, it looks good, but are you sure you want to take 6 Fighter levels? If you take 4 levels, you lose out on a feat, but gain 1d6 SA and a Rogue ability.

Oh, and your Will would scare me if I was in your party. You are enchantment bait with Will that low.

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-05-22, 03:35 PM
It's not bad at all, save for the mentionings before on your atrocious will.

Waitress: Welcome to the Giant's Feast, may I take your order?
You: Hmm. I think I'll start with a salad.
Other PC: Salads suck.
You: Oh, I'm sorry. Salads suck. I'll take bread sticks.
Other Other PC: I don't like bread sticks.
You: I'm sorry again, but it appears that I do not like bread sticks. Can we just go straight to the entrees?
Waitress: You sure you don't want an appetizer?
You: I... I... *cry* I don't know!

Lolth
2007-05-22, 10:33 PM
Can you use a Rogue/Swashbuckler instead? You get Weapon Finesse for free, lower your Str and put it into Int for more Skills (remember, Swash get Int to damage), and with the Daring Outlaw feat, your Swash and Rogue levels stack for Sneak Attack progression.

Also, if for whatever bizzare reason you need to play a Drow and don't care about the +2 LA which kills your build, I hope you are using LA buyoff (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/unearthedRaces.html) or the transition class (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040319a) which allows you to use a slightly weaker version of the race for only +1 LA.

Also, Quickdraw is a pretty useless feat unless you're using a very specific build. You don't even have iterative attacks yet! If for some reason you need to be always armed, I suggest you take Improved Unarmed Strike, which is superior because you are always wearing your magical gauntlets, they can't be disarmed, and they work with both Power Attack and Weapon Finesse.

In terms of stats, you can lower your Str to whatever you need just to carry your equiptment, dump Cha to as low as possible, and put the extra points into Dex and Con.

It's like you don't even read my posts. Swashbucklers are not Fighters. This is a Fighter/Rogue build.

As far as LA "Killing my build," well, it's a Drow game. So everyone's "Killed" equally. And I'm OK with that.

Quick Draw is for getting both swords drawn/daggers thrown in the event of initiative/other Flat-Footedness, wherein both Sneak Attack and adding Dex to damage happens. (Hit-and-Run Tactics is a Drow Alternate Fighter Option in Drow of the Underdark.)

Lolth
2007-05-22, 10:37 PM
The crappity Will Save is for plot-related reasons. A tragic flaw and what have you.

To those not completely ignoring my original post, and not suggesting I change Classes, etc., thank you very much so far!

I'll double-count skills. You are correct, sir! I shall fix.

ArmorArmadillo
2007-05-22, 10:45 PM
Hm...have you considered not going Melee?
You might want to try a thrown weapons build, drop Weapon Finesse in favor of Point Blank Shot to minimize the Two-Weapon Fighting. As your base attack gets higher, you can also take rapid shot for two extra attacks, and you can make use of Hide and Sneak to snipe.
Eventually, you can go into Master Thrower and get the double throw trick, allowing you to make Three (plus iterative) attacks per turn, all throwing two weapons at once, and all doing sneak attack damage.

Lolth
2007-05-22, 11:00 PM
Thrown might make for an interesting alternative, actually.

How do two-weapon fighting and rapid shot work together, if at all, for thrown?

Thanks!

Jasdoif
2007-05-22, 11:08 PM
How do two-weapon fighting and rapid shot work together, if at all, for thrown?You get the Rapid Shot extra in your primary hand, and you get the offhand attack through two-weapon fighting. You take both penalties (for Rapid Shot and two-weapon fighting) on all the attacks though; basically you end up with three attacks at a -4 penalty, if your thrown weapons are light.

Emperor Tippy
2007-05-22, 11:09 PM
Unless you can get Bloodclaw master from ToB. That negates the TWF penalty at its second level.

Lolth
2007-05-22, 11:22 PM
Is Bloodclaw Master a Feat, or a Feature of a Class that isn't Fighter or Rogue?

Jasdoif
2007-05-22, 11:26 PM
Also...why do you want Improved Critical? It's pretty sad with your weapon of choice, at best it gives you a 9.5% improvement on your chances for a critical hit on an attack.

Oh wait, I think I see...if you're trying to get the most mileage out of Telling Blow, may I suggest using weapons with a better crit range? Like kukris; or if you can fit in the Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting feat, go with rapiers or scimitars.

Emperor Tippy
2007-05-22, 11:28 PM
Is Bloodclaw Master a Feat, or a Feature of a Class that isn't Fighter or Rogue?

It's a ToB prestige class. The second level gives superior TWF which subtracts 2 from the TWF penalty with daggers. And that negates the TWF penalty with daggers entirely.

ArmorArmadillo
2007-05-22, 11:45 PM
Is Bloodclaw Master a Feat, or a Feature of a Class that isn't Fighter or Rogue?
The latter, although there is a feat from a sourcebook (I think Complete Warrior), Improved Rapid-Shot, that negates Rapid-Shotting penalties. I think you have to have many-shot first.

ClericofPhwarrr
2007-05-22, 11:50 PM
It's like you don't even read my posts. Swashbucklers are not Fighters. This is a Fighter/Rogue build.

Really, they're close enough in this case to fit the bill. I wouldn't dismiss Person_Man's post so quickly; his advice is among the best you'll find here.

Lolth
2007-05-23, 12:39 AM
Really, they're close enough in this case to fit the bill. I wouldn't dismiss Person_Man's post so quickly; his advice is among the best you'll find here.

Except that close isn't fitting the bill. Other than the fact that our game does not allow Swashbucklers (something I didn't mention, since I did specifically mention wanting to stick to Fighter/Rogue), there is a new Fighter optional ablity in the new drow book I specifically wanted to explore. Which kind of means I need to be a Fighter, not a "something close to a fighter."

I do appreciate advice, but it's only helpful if it addresses the questions asked. :)

Hallavast
2007-05-23, 01:05 AM
I'd just like to add that you're really not in that much danger with those "low will saves". In the event that you are charmed (or dominated or something) you do have what constitutes as a +4 racial modifier against something like that. You are slightly more susceptable to fear and so forth, but you still get +2 against those if it's a spell or SLA, and you're immune to sleep. I don't know what more enchantment can do to you. On top of it all, you have spell resistance. Ironically, I'd say you're more vulnerable to a direct damage blast than an enchantment debuff (at this level anyway).

Person_Man
2007-05-23, 10:19 AM
OK, for whatever reason, you must be a Fighter/Rogue.

Can you use Unearthed Arcana rules?

What books are usable?

Suggested feats:

Blend into Shadows (gives Hide in Plain Site). From Drow of the Underdark.

Greater Manyshot (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/psionicFeats.html#greater-manyshot): You won't qualify until mid levels, but the ranged combat tree has a greater damage output for Rogues then TWF. It's also a lot safer, since you don't have to stand near the front line.

Elf Dilettante: Gives you +1 on all untrained Skills, and lets you attempt untrained Skill checks in Skills that normally don't allow them. This can be wildly useful, since it grants you access to every Knowledge Skill, Autohypnosis, Truespeak, Heal, Martial Lore, and other goodies, all for one feat. From Races of the Wild.

Willing Deformity and Deformity (Tall): If you're wedded to the inferior choice of close combat, this will increase your natural reach by 10 feet. With a reach weapon, like a guisarme, your reach will be 20 feet. This will make it much easier for you to Flank without having to be near your enemies, and you'll generate a lot more AoO. So you'll probably end up with a lot more Sneak Attacks then if you go with TWF. From Heroes of Horror. Aberration Blood and Inhuman Reach from Lords of Madness does the exact same thing (and I've seen some hilarious 30 ft reach AoO builds all of them).

Emperor Tippy
2007-05-23, 10:30 AM
Jack Mann and I got a fighter who threatens everything within 70 feet. That was fun.

Telonius
2007-05-23, 10:32 AM
I believe there are some crystals in the Magic Item Compendium that essentially allow you to quickdraw a weapon. Your DM might not allow it, since it's basically a Feat's worth of utility for under 1000 gp. But if it's allowed, you can choose something else instead of Quick Draw.

EDIT: D'oh, elf traits, nevermind.

Lolth
2007-05-24, 11:41 AM
Thanks, guys. I finished it up, decided to go with the "Inferior choices" because they seemed like more fun to me, and will try to keep from slitting my wrists with shame. :P

Again, thanks to all who provided on-topic suggestions!

Morty
2007-05-24, 12:19 PM
Jack Mann and I got a fighter who threatens everything within 70 feet. That was fun.

I know it's OT, but how? Insane enlarging?