I have a stupid question about multiclass saves

[Windrammer]

I... I just don't get it.

It says the saves are cumulative. So... If you were Fighter 1/Barbarian 1/Cleric 1/Monk 1, you're a 4th level character with a +8 fortitude? I know that can't be right, I just don't understand what the alternative is. I guess you're losing out on other saves, but not by the proportions you gain for that one.

[OldTrees1]

That is correct +2+2+2+2=+8.

There is a variant rule (Fractional BAB / Saves) found in Unearthed Arcana that ends in higher BAB/Poor Saves(Ref and Will for a Ftr) but worse Good Saves(Fort for a Ftr).

Brief summary:
Fractional BAB = +1 * #levels with Good BAB * +3/4 * #levels with Ave BAB +1/2 * #levels with Poor BAB
Fractional Saves = +1/2 * #levels with Good Save * +1/3 * #levels with Poor Save (+2 if there are any levels with it as a Good save).

[eggynack]

No, the values given by fractional saves are strictly greater than those given by standard saves. Dips, by the rules, still give you that extra bonus to good saves every time. So, you can get an aberrantly high save from dipping regardless of system.

[AvatarVecna]

Yes, saves get ridiculous when you dip a lot.

[OldTrees1]

No, the values given by fractional saves are strictly greater than those given by standard saves. Dips, by the rules, still give you that extra bonus to good saves every time. So, you can get an aberrantly high save from dipping regardless of system.

Doesn't it have the sidebar about perhaps not getting the extra bonus each time?

[eggynack]

Doesn't it have the sidebar about perhaps not getting the extra bonus each time?
The sidebar definitely doesn't outright say that anywhere, and the way the examples are constructed indicates the opposite.

[AvatarVecna]

Doesn't it have the sidebar about perhaps not getting the extra bonus each time?

Perhaps, but that's a variant rule of a variant rule; the standard save rules say you get it multiple times, and the primary fractional save rules don't say otherwise.

[Urpriest]

Note that, based on the way Prestige Classes are written, it's pretty clear this was intended from day one.

[LTwerewolf]

I... I just don't get it.

I guess you're losing out on other saves, but not by the proportions you gain for that one.

What you're losing out on is higher level class features, which tend (some exceptions such as monk/fighter) to have better class features and/or spells as you get higher level in that class.

[Windrammer]

What you're losing out on is higher level class features, which tend (some exceptions such as monk/fighter) to have better class features and/or spells as you get higher level in that class.

Yeah it's just a half minotaur+human monk 1/whirling frenzy spirit lion barbarian 1/dungeoncrasher fighter 2 and warblade from then on. I only end up two initiator levels behind, still get ninth level maneuvers in the end. I just wanted iron heart surge and everything past that is just fun perks rather than crucial abilities.

I get Power Attack, Combat Reflexes, Improved Unarmed Strike, Improved Grapple, Improved Bull Rush, Knockback, and Shock Trooper by level 6 this way. The monk level was to even it out for the .5 initiator level rule of multiclassing, and to make it more interesting in both mechanics and backstory. The occasional grapple would be immensely useful in this game, and I always love my characters to be able to have unarmed strike in their repertoire. It's my first time doing the knockback / shock trooper / dungeoncrasher routine.

[eggynack]

Indeed, the save rules tend to benefit mundane folks over magic folks, because mundanes are usually more front loaded while magic folk are usually reliant on long progressions. It is thus a pretty good setup for overall balance, though it does often grant an additional advantage to whoever has greater system mastery because dip heavy builds are more common when you know the game well. Notably, the fractional save rules actually make dips even more advantageous, because the initial bonus is increased to +2.5, meaning a theoretical maximum of +50 to a single save at level 20.

[Zancloufer]

Indeed, the save rules tend to benefit mundane folks over magic folks, because mundanes are usually more front loaded while magic folk are usually reliant on long progressions. It is thus a pretty good setup for overall balance, though it does often grant an additional advantage to whoever has greater system mastery because dip heavy builds are more common when you know the game well. Notably, the fractional save rules actually make dips even more advantageous, because the initial bonus is increased to +2.5, meaning a theoretical maximum of +50 to a single save at level 20.

How is the initial bonus +2.5? How the saves work under a fractional system is simple: +0.5 per level if it's good, and +0.3 per level if it's bad. There is also a universal +2 to any save that was "good" at one point, but that only happens once. You will never have a save that exceeds +12 base by level 20 with the fractional system.

I would honestly use the fractional system, or try to convince your DM to use it. It evens out bonuses with multi-classing and stops you from getting those stupid high bonuses on good saves and also stops you from having like a +0-1 Will if you happen to stack a bunch of low level dips that tank will saves.

[Dread_Head]

How is the initial bonus +2.5? How the saves work under a fractional system is simple: +0.5 per level if it's good, and +0.3 per level if it's bad. There is also a universal +2 to any save that was "good" at one point, but that only happens once. You will never have a save that exceeds +12 base by level 20 with the fractional system.

Because that is what it states it is in the table for first class level? None of the things you mention are in the rules on page 73 of unearthed arcana, it simply states that at the first class level you get +2.5 to your save and at all later levels you get +0.5. In the example it calculates a fractional save Cleric 5 / Fighter 2 as having a Fort save of 7 (rounded down from 7.5). This would be wrong if you only gained the +2 boost once. (Yes I'm aware examples are often wrong but in those cases its because they disagree with the rules and this one agrees with the way the rules are presented).

[Pluto!]

How is the initial bonus +2.5? How the saves work under a fractional system is simple: +0.5 per level if it's good, and +0.3 per level if it's bad. There is also a universal +2 to any save that was "good" at one point, but that only happens once. You will never have a save that exceeds +12 base by level 20 with the fractional system.
That makes sense, but it isn't how the rules variant works.

The variant explicitly says 2+1/2*lvl, giving an example of a Fighter 5/Cleric 2 with a base Fort of +7.

It's stupid (I use your rulings in my own games), but that's what we've got.

On the plus side, it makes Master of Shrouds more exciting.

[eggynack]

That makes sense, but it isn't how the rules variant works.

The variant explicitly says 2+1/2*lvl, giving an example of a Fighter 5/Cleric 2 with a base Fort of +7.

But the fighter 5/cleric 2 doesn't have a fort save of +7. They have a fortitude save of +7.5, and that's being rounded down. And, more to the point, that extra half per level doesn't exist in the original rules, at least not on single dips. Your calculations give the same results I've given, because a fighter 1/cleric 1 would get a +2 from each source, and then a pair of +1/2's from the two levels, adding up to a +5.

[atemu1234]

But the fighter 5/cleric 2 doesn't have a fort save of +7. They have a fortitude save of +7.5, and that's being rounded down. And, more to the point, that extra half per level doesn't exist in the original rules, at least not on single dips. Your calculations give the same results I've given, because a fighter 1/cleric 1 would get a +2 from each source, and then a pair of +1/2's from the two levels, adding up to a +5.

Yeah, the fractional rules make a bit more sense.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Yeah, dipping can get great saves, but you'll miss out on later class features and in a lot of cases your BAB will get destroyed (maybe that's why they made most of the full BAB classes have only 1 good save? It's about the only thing that remotely makes sense when cleric and druid get the two most important ones). There is also multiclass xp penalties, if your DM uses them. I decided not to for my game, but then one of my players strung together 7 classes in 11 levels and is making me seriously regret my generosity...

As for fractional, I'm pretty sure the INTENT was that you only ever get the +2 bonus for a good save once per save (Fort, Reflex, Will). I guess by strict RAW that's not how it turned out, but it's pretty silly to think they meant for it to make multiclass save bonuses even better. Assuming you have that restriction, fractional saves will help poor saves slightly, and hurt good saves. I always offer it to players with fractional BAB, but not separate. Fractional BAB tends to help slightly, fractional saves tends to hurt slightly.

[eggynack]

As for fractional, I'm pretty sure the INTENT was that you only ever get the +2 bonus for a good save once per save (Fort, Reflex, Will). I guess by strict RAW that's not how it turned out, but it's pretty silly to think they meant for it to make multiclass save bonuses even better.
I don't know how only one +2 per save could possibly be the intent when an example is essentially the greatest possible resource for intent. It's like the designers are reaching through the veil and telling you that this is how they want the system to work.

[Pluto!]

But the fighter 5/cleric 2 doesn't have a fort save of +7. They have a fortitude save of +7.5, and that's being rounded down. And, more to the point, that extra half per level doesn't exist in the original rules, at least not on single dips. Your calculations give the same results I've given, because a fighter 1/cleric 1 would get a +2 from each source, and then a pair of +1/2's from the two levels, adding up to a +5.
It sounds like you're disagreeing with me, but we're saying the same thing...

[eggynack]

It sounds like you're disagreeing with me, but we're saying the same thing...
Oh, yeah, I thought you were saying a different thing, and had a confusion of the heart, partially rooted in that +7/+7.5 majig.

[TheifofZ]

First, the debate about the exact means and method of fractional saves and BAB is drifting off topic.
The main point is that doing multiple Multiclassing dips will get you far ahead of the curve on the primary saves, but will rapidly leave you wanting in higher level class features, as well as often hitting your BaB and your poor saves.
Fighter/Paladin/Cleric/Druid, for example, would have +4 will and +8 fort at level 4, but +0 Reflex. put another level into all those classes, and it jumps to +12 Fort/ +6 Will/+ 0 Ref as an 8th level character. Cleric and Druid also have medium BaB progression, so you also have +6 BaB instead of 8, and have only a few minor bonuses from each class.
(2 feats, lay on hands/smite evil, and 2 1st level spells in druid and cleric).
That +0 Reflex is pretty terrible to see, and I'm sure there's more than a few spells that might as well be SoD with a Reflex attached, even if all the best are definitely Will or Fort.
If you kept multiclassing like that, you could, theoretically, hit +30 Fort/ +15 Will/ +0 Ref.
And you'd have absolute garbage for abilities. If you really want massive saves, there are much better ways to do it with much more reliable results that boost all of your saves, not just a few.

[AvatarVecna]

First, the debate about the exact means and method of fractional saves and BAB is drifting off topic.
The main point is that doing multiple Multiclassing dips will get you far ahead of the curve on the primary saves, but will rapidly leave you wanting in higher level class features, as well as often hitting your BaB and your poor saves.
Fighter/Paladin/Cleric/Druid, for example, would have +4 will and +8 fort at level 4, but +0 Reflex. put another level into all those classes, and it jumps to +12 Fort/ +6 Will/+ 0 Ref as an 8th level character. Cleric and Druid also have medium BaB progression, so you also have +6 BaB instead of 8, and have only a few minor bonuses from each class.
(2 feats, lay on hands/smite evil, and 2 1st level spells in druid and cleric).
That +0 Reflex is pretty terrible to see, and I'm sure there's more than a few spells that might as well be SoD with a Reflex attached, even if all the best are definitely Will or Fort.
If you kept multiclassing like that, you could, theoretically, hit +30 Fort/ +15 Will/ +0 Ref.
And you'd have absolute garbage for abilities. If you really want massive saves, there are much better ways to do it with much more reliable results that boost all of your saves, not just a few.

Building on this: the best way to build saves in a way that doesn't totally ruin you at doing other things is to dip a couple times into very useful classes. For example, a Monk 2 dip gives Wis to AC, two feats (that can be traded away), evasion, and +3 to all saves...well, and some unarmed stuff, but that's not as important. Paladin 2 gives you Detect Evil at-will, BAB +2, and Cha to saves. Either of these is a decent dip for the right build, and just the right build might even have a reason to dip both. A while back, I built a hypothetical character that was Cha-SAD, had pumped Cha into the sky, and got Cha to all saves 4 times...and to Will twice more (IIRC; it's been a while since I made the build). With the ~30 Cha they had, their lowest save was +40 without Base Save Bonuses or magic items.

Still, it should be mentioned that even a +1000000 Fort/Will save isn't as useful as the undead creature type, due to it's flat-out immunity to mind-affecting effects and several conditions, since that huge bonus can still fail on a natural 1.

[TheifofZ]

I know for a fact that there is a feat to negate the automatic failure on a 1 for Fortitude saves (that also adds Con to Will saves, handily enough).
But I don't think there are any effects at all that do that for Will or Reflex.
So, yeah.

[AvatarVecna]

I know for a fact that there is a feat to negate the automatic failure on a 1 for Fortitude saves (that also adds Con to Will saves, handily enough).
But I don't think there are any effects at all that do that for Will or Reflex.
So, yeah.

Im aware of that feat as well. It's a wonderful feat, but it also kinda proves my point: +10000 without the feat is worse than +50 with the feat, outside of super high Op games.

[Windrammer]

Im aware of that feat as well. It's a wonderful feat, but it also kinda proves my point: +10000 without the feat is worse than +50 with the feat, outside of super high Op games.

So.... What's the feat?

[AvatarVecna]

So.... What's the feat?

"Steadfast Determination" from Player's Handbook II. It requires the ever-popular "Endurance" feat, but it lets you not auto-fail Fort saves on a 1, as well as letting you base your Will saves on Con instead of Wis. It's an awesome martial feat.

[Deadline]

So.... What's the feat?

Steadfast Determination.

Edit - Swordsaged, and by a more informative post too. :smalltongue:

[Windrammer]

Steadfast Determination.

Edit - Swordsaged, and by a more informative post too. :smalltongue:

Wow. I had no idea it made you not fail fort saves on a 1. I don't know how I never noticed that. No wonder the feat is held in such high regard....

[AvatarVecna]

Wow. I had no idea it made you not fail fort saves on a 1. I don't know how I never noticed that. No wonder the feat is held in such high regard....

It's so awesome, it has Endurance as a pre-req, and people still love it to pieces.

[Flickerdart]

If you only have one feat to spare, Planar Touchstone for the Catalogues of Enlightenment is excellent since it lets you grab the Pride domain's ability to automatically reroll all natural 1s on saves. It's still not bulletproof, but it drops your chance of getting that natural 1 to 0.25%. This means you need to roll 400 saves to have an even chance of getting a natural 1. For context, if encounters take 3 rounds, and if every round of every encounter it takes to get from 1 to 20, someone targeted you with an ability that provoked a save, you would roll 798 saves, which puts your chances of getting a natural 1 during your career at just under 75%. On average, you would have rolled two natural 1s. None of those 1s are guaranteed to be on a Fortitude save, either.

Steadfast Determination is worth it for CON to Will, but if your saves are already baller and you're just worried about natural 1s, then it's better to pick up Planar Touchstone and a feat you will use all the time, rather than Endurance (a feat you will use never) and another feat that might cover one or two natural 1s.

[bekeleven]

I've used that exact combination before. I've also just dipped cloistered cleric, because value. Either way, pride domain is nice.

There's also the diamond mind Mind Over Xs, which can be put onto items. Throw in Undersong and you can apply your BAB to saves.

[Khedrac]

It's still not bulletproof, but it drops your chance of getting that natural 1 to 0.25%. This means you need to roll 400 saves to have an even chance of getting a natural 1.
It is not 400 saves to have an even chance of getting a natural 1 - it is 277 saves (still a lot better than without the reroll).

The maths is to look at the chance of not having rolled a natural 1 - i.e. 0.9975^Rolls
0.9975^276 = 0.5011429 (50.1%)
0.9975^277 = 0.4998901 (50.0%)

Edit: Also your chance of getting a natural 1 remains 0.25%, but your chance of having already rolled a natural 1 goes over 50% - they are different things.

[Jay R]

This is one of many irrational results that come from trying to simulate a continuous learning and growth process with discrete levels. Accept the occasional cognitive dissonance and play the game.