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Whiplord
2007-05-22, 12:49 PM
My DM fails to understand the power of a Wizard, and wants me to prove that they're more powerful than all else. As an example, he's convinced my warmage is brokenly powerful.

Try to stick to core if possible.

Douglas
2007-05-22, 12:52 PM
The Logic Ninja's Guide to Wizards: Being Batman (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18500)

Morty
2007-05-22, 01:12 PM
TLN's guide is hardly broken. It describes how to play an effective wizard, and it's not TLN's fault that wizard is broken. Though you don't have to try hard to break a game with wizard, so you may just use this guide and use spells described in "too broken to use".
Warmage broken? Whoa. What arguments did he use(Warmage is a fine class, if you ask me, maybe a bit weak)?

Whiplord
2007-05-22, 01:21 PM
d6 hit die, ability to use armor, immediate spell list, warmage edge (ooooh three damage!) and the fact he fails at compensating for slightly more powerful characters.

And he claims my taking sudden metamagic feats is me trying to exploit the system and powergame.

The_Werebear
2007-05-22, 01:23 PM
1- Phantom Steed, stay out of reach.
2- Forcecage your foe.
3- Cloudkill the cage.
4- Con damage kills your enemy

Emperor Tippy
2007-05-22, 01:24 PM
Well most broken core build possible or most broken build possible?

And what level?

Morty
2007-05-22, 01:26 PM
d6 hit die, ability to use armor, immediate spell list, warmage edge (ooooh three damage!) and the fact he fails at compensating for slightly more powerful characters.

And he claims my taking sudden metamagic feats is me trying to exploit the system and powergame.

Seriously, it look like your DM skimmed through the books and screamed "it's broken!" before noticing that Warmage's list is extremely limited.
Sudden metamagic powergaming? Now that's ridiculous. Sudden metamagic is perfectly fine. Sudden Maximize is useful for Magic Missle and Ray of Enfeeblement

Douglas
2007-05-22, 01:27 PM
It describes how to play an effective wizard
Exactly. When the competition is a Warmage, that's all you need. Going the Xtreme Broken route would be overkill and would probably convince this DM of nothing more than that a few particular things are ridiculously broken rather than the desired goal of demonstrating that wizards are inherently powerful if played well.

Indon
2007-05-22, 01:27 PM
Well, rather than address your question, I'm going to point out that it looks like you're basically trying to ruin your friend's D&D game, which is a pretty mean thing to do.

Rather than intentionally trying to ruin the fun of the people you're playing with, perhaps you could simply point out a few Wizard spells and discuss about what you could theoretically do with them, without actually needing to have rocks fall on your head and kill you for your friend to save the evening.

Of course, if you don't plan on actually using this wizard, my advice is nonapplicable and retracted when appropriate.

Just an FYI.

Solo
2007-05-22, 01:29 PM
Start out wizard, go Incanatrix, then Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil, then Archmage.

Have fun pressing the win button.

EvilElitest
2007-05-22, 01:30 PM
My DM fails to understand the power of a Wizard, and wants me to prove that they're more powerful than all else. As an example, he's convinced my warmage is brokenly powerful.

Try to stick to core if possible.

Wait, he thinks a warmage is to powerful but a wizard is not?:smallfrown: :smallconfused:

Right.........
from,
EE

Telonius
2007-05-22, 01:32 PM
Logic Ninja's guide is the basis of the argument. There are certain situations whereby a Wizard's weaknesses can be exploited - throw bunches of encounters a day at them, for example. But even then, a Wizard with Plane Shift prepared can get away, to a safe location where time doesn't pass as fast; then come back fully rested and ready. (Dimensional Anchor? Sorry, quickened Dispel Magic then plane shift).

The Wizard doesn't lose because he's Batman. If Batman has sufficient time to prepare to fight you, you're hosed; and a sufficiently high-level Wizard has enough Divinations to draw from to find out who's threatening him. He can know who you are, what your strengths are, and prepare for you accordingly. A high-Dex wizard with Improved Initiative will likely go before anybody but a Rogue or a dex-based Fighter. Time Stop lets you take that Initiative and win. Fly lets you get away from those pesky fighter types, and Windwall lets you laugh at their pathetic attempts to shoot you down. If some smart fighter has Boots of Flying, Targeted Dispel, fighter goes splat.

As an aside, the Wizard might not be more powerful than all else. There are still the Artificer and CoDzilla to contend with, and I'm not sure if there's a consensus yet as to which is most powerful.

Morty
2007-05-22, 01:33 PM
Wait, he thinks a warmage is to powerful but a wizard is not?:smallfrown: :smallconfused:

Right.........
from,
EE

Well, I can totally understand his point. One can think that Warmage is more powerful than wizard, unless he thinks about that for more than a minute:smalltongue:

EvilElitest
2007-05-22, 01:35 PM
Well, I can totally understand his point. One can think that Warmage is more powerful than wizard, unless he thinks about that for more than a minute:smalltongue:

how so might i ask?
from,
EE

KIDS
2007-05-22, 01:39 PM
I'd say a wizard can easily be the most powerful and "I win" combo class among all others (druid might be versatile, endurant and doing big damage, but I don't recall any "you lose instantly" combos with it). Of course, most people, when played with some measure of sanity, won't resort to it. Even a Core wizard can simply gate in Infinite Wishes, and Forcecage and Cloudkill combo is also Core. When you go Incatatrix or Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil, the brokeness just adds up.

Do note that TLN's guide mentions a special section of "stinky cheese" spells, which no one should use for good of the game. Yup, wizards are the most brokenly powerful thing, but they don't have to be.

Emperor Tippy
2007-05-22, 01:44 PM
Your better off with the 5th level substitution feature from Complete Champion that allows you to cast all spells from the divine school spontaneously.

This qualifies you for Ultimate Magnus.

At ECL 15 you are casting as a level 22 wizard. Pick up a level or 2 of Archmage and finish off with IotSV, Incantatrix, or just some more Archmage.

Morty
2007-05-22, 01:50 PM
how so might i ask?
from,
EE

Well, you think "OMG he can cast various damage spells so much better than wizard or sorcerer", but when you think about it for a minute, you realize that:
1) There are many spells Warmage will never cast
2) Damage spells aren't the best wizard can do.


Do note that TLN's guide mentions a special section of "stinky cheese" spells, which no one should use for good of the game.

That list is too short, if you ask me.

JaronK
2007-05-22, 01:51 PM
It's pretty easy to think the Warmage is more powerful if you glace at it and don't notice the spell list. It's a lot better in every way except for that tiny problem of not having any of the good spells, and in fact having a specific concentration of all the worst sort of spells (the blast spells).

So, you want a strong Wizard build? Try this: Wizard 4/Binder 1/Anima Mage 10/Shadowcraft Mage 5. SCM is from Races of Stone, Anima Mage and Binder are from Tome of Magic. With Arcane Disciple: Luck and Residual Metamagic, you can cast something like 7 9th level spells per day by level 20, all of which are Miracles that don't use Exp and are totally unrestricted, allowing you to literally cast "I win." Also, you can bind 5th level vestiges, which is fun... so now you can heal all day long if you like, or walk around ethereal all day, or whatever.

But seriously, here's what your DM is missing: the power of an arcane caster is their ability to have the right spell for the job, and some of those spells are incredibly powerful. Shivering Touch: 1 hit TKO on a dragon (use Spectral Hand so you don't have to get close). Polymorph Any Object to turn the rogue into a 12 headed pyrohydra. Celerity to be gaurenteed to go first. Persistant Shapechange (yes, the build above can do that) to be able to cast any kind of spells and at will turn into rediculous creatures. Alter Self to gain +8 Natural AC with a 2nd level spell (or flight, or burrowing, or claw attacks and +6 Natural AC, whatever). Rope Trick to refresh all your spells. The true power of arcane casters is not their blast spells. Anyone can deal a little damage once in a while. Even fighters can do that. Their power is to use one spell to completely solve any problem in front of them... maybe two on a bad day. Blast spells are the least efficient way to do that.

And blast spells is pretty much all a Warmage gets. So yes, they've got lots of shiney abilities, allowing them to modify the heck out of their nearly worthless spell list.

JaronK

Morty
2007-05-22, 01:53 PM
And blast spells is pretty much all a Warmage gets. So yes, they've got lots of shiney abilities, allowing them to modify the heck out of their nearly worthless spell list.


Their spell list isn't worthless. It's worse that Wizard's all the way, but everything is weaker than wizard.

ArmorArmadillo
2007-05-22, 01:57 PM
TLN's guide is hardly broken. It describes how to play an effective wizard, and it's not TLN's fault that wizard is broken. Though you don't have to try hard to break a game with wizard, so you may just use this guide and use spells described in "too broken to use".
Warmage broken? Whoa. What arguments did he use(Warmage is a fine class, if you ask me, maybe a bit weak)?
The problem with TLN's guide is that you don't have to minmax a wizard to break it; just playing an "effective" wizard will be inherently better than other classes.

JaronK
2007-05-22, 02:03 PM
Their spell list isn't worthless. It's worse that Wizard's all the way, but everything is weaker than wizard.

Worthless by comparison to Wizards was what I meant. You're right though, they're fine as psuedo-archers.

JaronK

Telonius
2007-05-22, 02:09 PM
d6 hit die, ability to use armor, immediate spell list, warmage edge (ooooh three damage!) and the fact he fails at compensating for slightly more powerful characters.

And he claims my taking sudden metamagic feats is me trying to exploit the system and powergame.

So, Warmage gets an average 10hp difference by 20th level between Wizard and Warmage, and more spells per day. Ability to cast in armor, when Bracers are often better for high-dex characters (and Wizards can use mithral chain shirts anyway wtih low spell failure). He gets a bunch of ready-made Metamagic feats chosen for him that only function once a day, as opposed to a Wizard's metamagic spells, which can be applied to any number of spells per day (as long as he has enough spell slots), and which the wizard can use to get the exact same feats that the Warmage has, if he wants. Warmage gets a bunch of damage-dealing spells, which are not optimal spells, that the Wizard can also get if he wants.

So basically, there are only a couple things that the Warmage gets that the wizard doesn't: slightly higher hp, +int to damage, more spells per day, and casting in armor.

Wizard, on the other hand, has two huge advantages over him: versatility and battlefield control. The Wizard can cast everything the Warmage can, plus about a billion spells more. Nowhere on the Warmage list do I see such spells as Grease, Ray of Enfeeblement, Fly, Haste, Slow, Forcecage, Contingency, Sleep, or Dispel Magic. These are the kinds of spells that makes the Wizard win, not Magic Missile and Fireball. Wizard has Scribe Scroll, for saving good spells until you need them. (For that matter, Wizard can cast Read Magic, while Warmage can't).

the_tick_rules
2007-05-22, 02:22 PM
i've fought warmages maybe properly managed before, they're far from weak.

Whiplord
2007-05-22, 02:50 PM
To the person who suggested I would be ruining my friend's game, I won't be using this in our main game. If I use it at all, it will be a 1 on 1 duel where he can use what ever base class he thinks is more powerful, and I use a wizard. And promptly win.

I really like the ideas, but his so called knowledge of the rules are horrible. He also happens to call the Monk horridly broken because of "all the special abilities"

I swear he never even bothers to read details.

PinkysBrain
2007-05-22, 02:55 PM
At ECL 15 you are casting as a level 22 wizard.
Just because your character happens to be a wizard who can cast some spells spontaneously doesn't make the wizard a spontaneous casting class IMO (there is a feat which allows you to do the same thing BTW). You can qualify for the PrC, but applying an increase in spellcasting for spontaneous spellcasting classes to your wizard spellcasting requires some very questionable rules lawyering.

Quincunx
2007-05-22, 03:04 PM
Whupping the DM's character, while satisfying, won't educate him. Proving that wizard will rule the duel is easy; proving that your warmage isn't. . .well, make your DM play your warmage against you in the duel(s, you might want to hold melee vs. warmage, partial caster vs. warmage, divine vs. warmage, etc.). You'll be feeding him tactics to make your life miserable, possibly to kill off your character if he doesn't take the lesson, but that would give a chance for him to see that your character, specifically, isn't invulnerable.

Arbitrarity
2007-05-22, 03:29 PM
Simple builds mostly are things like:

Wizard 5/Incantatrix10/IOTSOV 5
Wizard 5/Incantatrix10/Archmage 2/Abjurant Champion 3
Wizard 5/Incantatrix4/IOTSOV 7/Incantatrix 4.

If no PGTOF, get Wizard 9/IOTSOV 7/Fatespinner 4.

Or something like that. And he can't really disallow IOTSOV, as it's in complete arcane.

Really, Incantatrix and Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil are the two most mighty PrC's, unless you use the uber cheese Tippy's recommending.

C'mon Tippy, even you were shocked at how broken that was :smallbiggrin:

Maybe he thinks warlocks own?

Oooh! For minmaxing intelligence (to the power of 3), do the following.

1: Be a grey elf.
2: Put 18 in intelligence.
3: Be venerable
4: Take spellcasting prodigy.
5: Put all but possibly last stat boost in intelligence.
6: Get a fiendish familiar. (Fiend Folio)
7: Get a headband of intellect.
8: Get a tome on clear thought.
9: ????
10: Profit, with 40 intelligence for DC's, 42 for bonus spells, and 38 for other purposes!

Ummm... Core only means you have junk PrC's. Get loremaster and archmage, perhaps.

Spell compendium! Spell compendium!

Now, if he palys core only, and you play core only, what does he think can beat a wizard. Overland flight, phantom steed make you immune to all melee, wind wall is excellent... now what?

If he plays a cleric or druid, then you may have an interesting time.

Cyborg Pirate
2007-05-22, 03:31 PM
Alternatively, play straight Wizard. Show the raw power of a straight Wizard as compared to a Warmage. That ought to shut your DM up more then any prc-heavy build.


[edit] Whiplord, if you're going to have a character showdown with the DM, first make sure you know the rules Really well make sure that whoever is DM that match knows the rules Really well. If he knows the rules as bad as you say, you might be in for a frustrating game.

Draz74
2007-05-22, 03:36 PM
... And he can't really disallow IOTSOV, as it's in complete arcane.

That's what you think. A smart DM with a spine will certainly nerf or ban IOTSOV no matter what source it comes from, unless he's aiming for his whole campaign to generally be a high-power one.


Core only means you have junk PrC's. Get loremaster and archmage, perhaps.

Meh, if I were trying to make the most optimized Core-only Wizard, I wouldn't even bother with Loremaster. Its abilities are less impressive, IMHO, than the prereqs you waste, the Bonus Feats you miss, and the abilities your puny little familiar is missing. Stick with Archmage.

TO THE OP: If you actually want a build, we (or Tippy) will make you one. But we need more info. What sources are allowed? (Just Core is fine, as long as you tell us that clearly!) What system is used to buy abilities (e.g. 28-point buy)? Are Custom Items allowed? Monstrous Manual Races allowed?

Arbitrarity
2007-05-22, 03:36 PM
But IOTSOV and Incantatrix are so broken! How can you possibly show ***-kicking without revealing your true and awe inspiring might?

And remember. Be afraid. Be very afraid. Because some people steal spellbooks, and others might try and assasinate you. Trap everything.

IOTSOV being disallowed, but warmage allowed, is kind of odd.
But hey, it is IOTSOV. Bokedness is an intrinsic aspect of the abilities.

Meh. Wizard 20 works pretty well. Get all the handy spells you can.

Cyborg Pirate
2007-05-22, 03:38 PM
And remember. Be afraid. Be very afraid. Because some people steal spellbooks, and others might try and assasinate you. Trap everything.



Rule one of playing a powerful wizard: Be the most paranoid person in the world!

ArmorArmadillo
2007-05-22, 03:50 PM
I think Warmage can't really be compared to Wizard, neither it, nor Wu Jen, nor Beguiler, nor any of the other "alternate mages" can compare with Wizard;
If they have a purpose, it would be in a campaign that only offers them as alternate classes.

Green Bean
2007-05-22, 03:53 PM
And remember. Be afraid. Be very afraid. Because some people steal spellbooks, and others might try and assasinate you. Trap everything.


Heh. That reminds me of a wizard I once played with. He really ramped up the paranoia. He ended up trapping everything. Spellbook, magic items, mundane items, underwear, robes, familiar, personal correspondence, campsites, inn rooms, his house, the party's houses, our halfling rogue, everything.

Emperor Tippy
2007-05-22, 04:01 PM
Just because your character happens to be a wizard who can cast some spells spontaneously doesn't make the wizard a spontaneous casting class IMO (there is a feat which allows you to do the same thing BTW). You can qualify for the PrC, but applying an increase in spellcasting for spontaneous spellcasting classes to your wizard spellcasting requires some very questionable rules lawyering.

No. The reason you can do it now and feats don't work is that CC gives it as a class feature.

The feats that give spontaneous casting allow you to qualify for UM but they don't let you stack the CL increases. This is due to the fact that you have no spontaneous casting class.

The thing in CC replaces one of your wizard class features with this class feature. A part of the wizard class is now spontaneous casting.

You now qualify for UM. Your spontaneous casting class is wizard. Your prepared casting class is wizard.

Now UM gives very specific benefits each level. One of those benefits is your CL in your spontaneous casting class increasing by 1.

Another one of the benefits of UM is your CL in your prepared casting class increasing by 1.

The only reason that it works is CC was stupid enough to make the ability a feature.

If they had made it a wizard bonus feat that can only be taken at Wiz 5 you wouldn't have this problem.

This is a very clear cut part of RAW. No rules lawyering at all.

Indon
2007-05-22, 04:06 PM
Well, as for my contribution, not only should you look at spell books, but also monster manuals, so that you can Alter Self/Polymorph/Shapechange into the most brokenest things ever.

You can use Alter Self to transform into humanoids with powers such as flight (Raptorans), gaining access to this ability before you would gain access to the Fly spell.

You can use Polymorph to transform into, I dunno, something crazy good.

You can use Shapechange to transform into things with crazy abilities that you wouldn't get from Polymorph. Popular is the "Choker", which gets an extra standard action (read: spell) each turn.

JaronK
2007-05-22, 04:23 PM
If you're dueling, the first thing to remember is contingency. Have a contingency to gaurentee he doesn't get the drop on you. Celerity is also your friend if you can make sure you're not flat footed. As a Warmage, he has no counter to Forcecage, so a quickened Cloudkill followed by a Forcecage should end the fight instantly... just make sure you have defenses up just in case.

JaronK

Emperor Tippy
2007-05-22, 04:26 PM
Just go grab an Epic monster.

I can get you a CL of 35 fairly easily. That allows you to change into a very young force dragon. Which is very nice.

Or you can turn into a Solar.

Or just pick any monster you can find with up to 25 HD.

Fax Celestis
2007-05-22, 04:33 PM
You could also make his life very miserable. Take one level in Spellthief (Comp. Adventurer) and the Master Spellthief feat (Comp. Scoundrel; with which you won't even lose a caster level!). Hit him with a quickened armor lock spell (Comp. Scoundrel) and cast cloud of knives (PHB-II). Next turn, when you zing him with the knife from your cloud (a free action at the start of your turn), you can forego the sneak attack damage you gain (at a piddling 1d6) to instead take away a spell of his...even up to 9th level.

You don't necessarily have to use it on him, but robbing him of this own spells while adding to your own is a great tactic.

JaronK
2007-05-22, 04:38 PM
You could also make his life very miserable. Take one level in Spellthief (Comp. Adventurer) and the Master Spellthief feat (Comp. Scoundrel; with which you won't even lose a caster level!). Hit him with a quickened armor lock spell (Comp. Scoundrel) and cast cloud of knives (PHB-II). Next turn, when you zing him with the knife from your cloud (a free action at the start of your turn), you can forego the sneak attack damage you gain (at a piddling 1d6) to instead take away a spell of his...even up to 9th level.

You don't necessarily have to use it on him, but robbing him of this own spells while adding to your own is a great tactic.


Won't work. Master spellthief doesn't increase the maximum level of spells stored, just of spells stealable, so while you could steal a ninth level spell, you couldn't keep it to cast. You need 9 levels of spellthief for that... and then you're not a Wizard anymore.

JaronK

Fax Celestis
2007-05-22, 04:41 PM
Won't work. Master spellthief doesn't increase the maximum level of spells stored, just of spells stealable, so while you could steal a ninth level spell, you couldn't keep it to cast. You need 9 levels of spellthief for that... and then you're not a Wizard anymore.

JaronK

Who cares if you cast it or not? The point is, he can't. The Warmage's strength lies in his variety of blasting spells. Denying him access to that means that the majority of his class features simply cease functioning or stop being worthwhile. Also, because of the Warmage's limited spell list, you can pretty much pick and choose spells that you know he'll probably have...and if you're wrong, you still get one randomly.

Starbuck_II
2007-05-22, 04:47 PM
I think Warmage can't really be compared to Wizard, neither it, nor Wu Jen, nor Beguiler, nor any of the other "alternate mages" can compare with Wizard;
If they have a purpose, it would be in a campaign that only offers them as alternate classes.

Wu Jen are cool: Sudden Maximize Snake Darts:
Auto 16 damage and 6 con x2 (same target or differrent). Sure there is a save for the con damage. But they are still pretty neat: the flavor text is weird: you have to eat the snakes to cast it again.

The snakes literally crawl toward you and ask you to eat them.

ShneekeyTheLost
2007-05-22, 09:23 PM
My suggestion: Wizard 20.

Why? Simple. "Warmage is broken, wizard isn't". "Okay, so I'll create a Wiz20, put him up against a Warmage 20, and see how they do".

Spells to grab:

Contingency (Celerity upon my being the target of an attack or negative effect)
Celerity
Timestop
Forcecage
Resist Elements (since that's about the only thing a warmage can do to hurt you)
Cloudkill
(Dimension Anchor/Lock is pointless since Warmage has no way of getting out of a Forcecage)

Round 1. Either win initiative or loose initative, doesn't matter. If you win initiative, you don't blow your contingency, otherwise you do. When he attacks you, celerity gives you one immediate action outside of your normal turn. Use this to cast Time Stop. Use a Rod of Greater Maximize to max it out since he doesn't want Sudden Maximize.

1a) recover from Celerity
1b) Forcecage around him
1c) Stinking Cloud in the same area (read it carefully, if he is nausiated, he CANNOT TAKE ANY ACTIONS)
1d) DimDoor elsewhere
1e) Endure Elements on yourself

Rounds 2-however many it takes. Sit and laugh while he is nausiated (poor fort save means he is nausiated and he simply can't cast anything much less try to hurt you) and taking Con damage every turn until he dies.

Congratulations, only ONE spell not core (Celerity) and you completely eliminate your opponent without allowing him to retaliate. And did it without using PrC's. Have a nice day.

PS... this will work on the King of Smack CharOp build just as easily, which is one of the most broken melee builds in existance.

belboz
2007-05-22, 10:42 PM
Well, as for my contribution, not only should you look at spell books, but also monster manuals, so that you can Alter Self/Polymorph/Shapechange into the most brokenest things ever.

Didn't WotC issue an erratum that made these spells no longer RAW?

ClericofPhwarrr
2007-05-22, 10:46 PM
PS... this will work on the King of Smack CharOp build just as easily, which is one of the most broken melee builds in existance.

Most of the King of Smack builds get Dimension Door as a power, letting them avoid this.

Against the warmage, though, it's terribly effective.

ShneekeyTheLost
2007-05-22, 10:57 PM
Most of the King of Smack builds get Dimension Door as a power, letting them avoid this.

Against the warmage, though, it's terribly effective.

Against KoS build...

*Congingency Celerity upon my being the target of an attack or negative effect. You'll need it because KoS goes first.

Use celerity to Max Time Stop (using Rod or Sudden Max)

1a) recover from Celerity
1b) Forcecage
1c) Dimension Lock
1d) Cloudkill
1e) DimDoor out of reach

Unlike Dimension Lock, Dimension Lock is an area effect rather than targeted so it'll shut down any way of getting around the Forcecage. Don't bother with Stinking Cloud, most KoS builds have insane Fort saves.

Congratulations, an almost core wizard took down one of the most optimized builds CharOp boards can make.

ClericofPhwarrr
2007-05-22, 11:05 PM
Against KoS build...

*Congingency Celerity upon my being the target of an attack or negative effect. You'll need it because KoS goes first.

Use celerity to Max Time Stop (using Rod or Sudden Max)

1a) recover from Celerity
1b) Forcecage
1c) Dimension Lock
1d) Cloudkill
1e) DimDoor out of reach

Unlike Dimension Lock, Dimension Lock is an area effect rather than targeted so it'll shut down any way of getting around the Forcecage. Don't bother with Stinking Cloud, most KoS builds have insane Fort saves.

Congratulations, an almost core wizard took down one of the most optimized builds CharOp boards can make.

*Hits head* Of course, Dimension Lock. That would change things just a bit.

Emperor Tippy
2007-05-22, 11:07 PM
Or the KoS pays 11K for the rod of cancellation and gets out of the forcecage that way.

ShneekeyTheLost
2007-05-22, 11:11 PM
Or the KoS pays 11K for the rod of cancellation and gets out of the forcecage that way.

So have extra Forcecages. Cancellation can take out ONE Forcecage before it's worthless. I spend 1.5k on a Forcecage, he pays 11k on rod. Sounds like he's gonna run out of money LONG before I do.

This is, of course, assuming the KoS remembered to pack a RoC... most people don't get one as a matter of course.

Indon
2007-05-23, 07:49 AM
Didn't WotC issue an erratum that made these spells no longer RAW?

To my knowledge, they've put in new Polymorph spells, and suggested they are replacements, but I'm pretty sure they've not come out and said, "These original spells don't exist anymore," just yet.