The Melee Standard Action? (3.5)

[Gulian]

Hi! I've got a bit of an issue here from an optimization and general concept standpoint. My wizard character recently died a pretty gruesome death with no opportunity to resurrect him. It fell upon me to make a new character, and I decided to try something different. Namely, a martial character, but I hated their aspect of Walk Up -> Full Attack every round, so I decided to try and see what I could get if I focus on having a very big weapon (Goliath + Full-Blade + Monkey Grip) and doing standard action attacks. Of course, I was immediately drawn to the warblade. I made a general build with it and jumped right in (This happened the same day as the previous character's death) to roleplaying him. After the game itself, the DM told me that Martial Adepts are too rare and the entire practice is too new in his setting, meaning my character would have no one to learn from or would have to be a complete snowflake for it to work.

So, is there a way to make the most of a melee character's standard action without a single level in Warblade, Crusader and Swordsage or Martial Study? Or, to be even more specific, doing only one, big powerful attack?

[Psyren]

What you're actually looking for here is a way to full attack after moving, which is commonly called "pounce." There are several ways to get this, but the easiest is with a Spirit Lion Totem Barbarian from Complete Champion, which lets you do it all the way from level 1.

[Gulian]

I know of that one, but conceptually pounce is essentially making several attacks, isn´t it? I'm trying to not go down the standard ubercharger route, but if that's literally the only way...

[Rubik]

Go psychic warrior and focus on size + reach + AoOs + tripping, while using your standard action to manifest powers or trip/attack?

[Gulian]

Psionics are banned in our game. :smallfrown: I should have mentioned that earlier.

However, all dragon magazines are allowed.

[Rubik]

Psionics are banned in our game. :smallfrown: I should have mentioned that earlier.

However, all dragon magazines are allowed.Play a melee-focused druid.

[Douglas]

Outside of Tome of Battle, melee in general is pretty heavily built around full attacks and there aren't many ways to get around that.

[Necroticplague]

I know of that one, but conceptually pounce is essentially making several attacks, isn´t it? I'm trying to not go down the standard ubercharger route, but if that's literally the only way...

It's entirely possible to fluff multiple attacks as one massive one (with the various attack rolls representing how on-the-head the blow was), if it's the concept you're going for.

If you're going for something that's more mechanically meaningful....you could try using Snap Kick and an Aptitude Full-blade for an extra attack on a standard action. You could also use Dungeoncrasher to get a fair bit of damage out of smashing someone into the ground (hey, downward at 45 degrees is "away from you"), which would synergize well with being a Goliath. As a Goliath, you qualify for Knockback, which synergizes even further, along with a size-based bonus to the check and your high STR. One you've gotten the six fighter levels, you can go Incarnum for it's various bonuses to the bull-rush check, or Generic Warrior for some more feats that may be useful.

[Gulian]

It's entirely possible to fluff multiple attacks as one massive one (with the various attack rolls representing how on-the-head the blow was), if it's the concept you're going for.

If you're going for something that's more mechanically meaningful....you could try using Snap Kick and an Aptitude Full-blade for an extra attack on a standard action. You could also use Dungeoncrasher to get a fair bit of damage out of smashing someone into the ground (hey, downward at 45 degrees is "away from you"), which would synergize well with being a Goliath. As a Goliath, you qualify for Knockback, which synergizes even further, along with a size-based bonus to the check and your high STR. One you've gotten the six fighter levels, you can go Incarnum for it's various bonuses to the bull-rush check, or Generic Warrior for some more feats that may be useful.


This could actually be cool! A dungeon-crasher knockback build would qualify for big attacks. Knocking them back... into the ground, hah. Thank you!

And yes, I generally prefer to go for more mechanically meaningful things. Sometimes when I apply too much fluff that isn't correspondent with the general idea of the mechanic it starts to hurt my suspense of disbelief, but in this case, when Dungeoncrasher gets old, I'll just stick to full-attack pouncing and imagining it as one big strike.

[Kraken]

What level are you going to start at? You could potentially make a melee focused monk/cleric/sacred fist (Complete Divine) build of some sort. You could use druid, ur-priest (also Complete Divine), or some other divine caster instead of cleric, too. If you use druid, I might recommend a level of sacred exorcist (Complete Divine again), which would give you turning, which would let power the travel devotion feat (Complete Champion) to get extra move actions during combat. If you want to focus on making one big attack, take the decisive strike monk variant in the PHB2. Note that sacred fist actually advances casting for all 10 levels by the text of its spellcasting advancement ability entry, ability text always trumps a class progression table if there's a conflict (I forget where this is stated, but it's definitely a thing).

[Curmudgeon]

You could also use Dungeoncrasher to get a fair bit of damage out of smashing someone into the ground (hey, downward at 45 degrees is "away from you")
Dungeon Crasher uses Bull Rush rules, which are rather more picky than "away from you".
Bull Rush

You can make a bull rush as a standard action (an attack) or as part of a charge. When you make a bull rush, you attempt to push an opponent straight back instead of damaging him.
Diagonally downward is unlikely to qualify as "straight back" with most DMs, unless you're flying diagonally downward when you make the attack.

[Gulian]

Diagonally downward is unlikely to qualify as "straight back" with most DMs, unless you're flying diagonally downward when you make the attack.

You could, for example, jump as part of a charge and then you'd theoretically be attacking from above?


I'm starting at level 5, LA buyoff of Goliath was included into this. Most of the rest of the party is level 7.

[Curmudgeon]

You could, for example, jump as part of a charge and then you'd theoretically be attacking from above?
That's a shallow diagonal. D&D Jumps are always 4x as long as they are high, meaning you're coming in at about 26½ degrees. (Directly into the ground would be at 90 degrees, of course.) To a first approximation you're just pushing them back, with little downward momentum. Plus there's the basic problem that you don't qualify for Dungeon Crasher damage unless "you force an opponent to move into a wall or other solid object". They're already on the ground, so you can't move them there. It's not movement in D&D unless there's a change of square (i.e., at least 5').

[Rubik]

That's a shallow diagonal. D&D Jumps are always 4x as long as they are high, meaning you're coming in at about 26½ degrees.Not if it's a running high-jump. Then it's straight up and down.

[Gulian]

You also don't need to apply momentum straight down. You could, for example, attack them in such a way that they move at a 45 degree angle from their original position, meaning they hit the wall (floor) in the square behind them.

[LudicSavant]

Outside of Tome of Battle, melee in general is pretty heavily built around full attacks and there aren't many ways to get around that.

Only if "melee" means "guy who doesn't use spells" instead of "guy who makes melee attacks as primary form of offense."

[Curmudgeon]

Not if it's a running high-jump. Then it's straight up and down.
A running high jump doesn't direct your momentum at your opponent unless you enter their square; otherwise, it's into the ground nearby.

Anyway, as I've already pointed out, you need to move the opponent into the nearby wall or other surface. If they're already on it, you can't move them there.

[AngelOfFaith]

On page 45 of the PHBII there is a fighter alternate class feature called Overpowering Attack. It gives you the option to "deliver a single deadly attack" for double damage.
Downsides are it's a full-round action and its an ACF for a 16 lvl fighter... I guess alternate modes of movement are required at that point.

[Khedrac]

There's always the Duskblade - their standard "channel spell + attack" is a standard action...

[Novawurmson]

The Vital Strike (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/vital-strike-combat---final)/Improved/Greater (https://www.google.com/url?q=http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/greater-vital-strike-combat---final&sa=U&ved=0CAYQFjABahUKEwi9qpKU7bzIAhVLaz4KHYEyDus&client=internal-uds-cse&usg=AFQjCNHYPe5mlfy126GkiF9lT2A2YW7O5Q) line from Pathfinder could be backported easily to 3.5. Less damage than an ubercharger, but I'm sure your GM would appreciate it.

There's plenty of feats that modify it, like Devastating Strike (https://www.google.com/url?q=http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/devastating-strike-combat&sa=U&ved=0CAgQFjACahUKEwi9qpKU7bzIAhVLaz4KHYEyDus&client=internal-uds-cse&usg=AFQjCNEfX2jEpQsWajF0gSPGHfaD7jLuwQ) for raw damage or Staggering Blow (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/staggering-blow-combat)/Grasping Strike (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/grasping-strike-combat)for crowd control.

[OldTrees1]

Unless you have a new form of Standard Action attack, anything you do to improve your melee basic attack will improve Standard Attack, Full Attack, and Attack of Opportunity. The later two have a force multiplier (damage is not the only thing multiplied).

Goliath Barbarian(Goliath Barbarian, Wolf Totem) 2 / Fighter (Dungeon Crasher) 2/ Full BAB +1 / War Hulk 4
Feats: Combat Reflexes, Improved Trip(Bonus Feat), Power Attack, Improved Bullrush, Knockback, Cleave, Knock-down

Now your Standard Attacks (and AoOs) hit 3 people who are all tripped and sent flying.

[Aegis013]

If some of the old 3.0 material that never got updated is available to you, the Iaijutsu Master prestige class from Oriental Adventures has a way to make a standard action attack hit for massive damage via the Strike from the Void class feature.

It allows you to use iaijutsu focus skill and gain your charisma modifier on each extra die of damage you deal with iaijutsu focus. That can total up to quite a lot of damage. Though it may be considered broken by some DMs, so if you do decide to explore this option, be sure to discuss it with your DM first.

I know you don't want to use multiple attacks, but it does have great synergy with a single level dip of Decisive Strike Monk (Player's Handbook II), which can use a single unarmed strike to double any other damage you deal in the round, including all that sweet Iaijutsu focus damage.

[Telonius]

If Magic of Incarnum is available, Totemist can get a version of Pounce that works with natural weapons only, by binding Sphinx Claws to your Hand chakra. This works particularly well if you have a bunch of natural attacks already, either from a racial ability or through soulmelds. (Given what you've already said about the DM, do not bring up the words "Changeling Warshaper" anywhere near him).

[Curmudgeon]

I know you don't want to use multiple attacks, but ...
So far Gulian's just ruled out full attack actions, not multiple attacks in a standard action.

Necroticplague brought up Snap Kick (Tome of Battle), and I recommend that feat highly. Not only can you add an unarmed strike to a standard action attack, you can do so with a full attack, a bonus attack (such as the one granted by Improved Trip), or an attack of opportunity. You can buy the Improved Unarmed Strike prerequisite quite cheaply: Bracers of Striking are only 1,310 gp and grant that feat (Magic of Faerûn).

Nobody's mentioned Spring Attack, which lets you split a move action around a standard action attack. If you have some other reason for taking Dodge and Mobility (for Shadowdancer entry, perhaps), then this feat goes from way too expensive to OK.

[Rubik]

Nobody's mentioned Spring Attack, which lets you split a move action around a standard action attack. If you have some other reason for taking Dodge and Mobility (for Shadowdancer entry, perhaps), then this feat goes from way too expensive to OK.The only times Flyby Attack isn't superior to Spring Attack in every possible way are when you can't fly, and after Alter Self becomes available in a wand, this is very, very rare.

Or should be, anyway.

[Curmudgeon]

The only times Flyby Attack isn't superior to Spring Attack in every possible way are when you can't fly ...
... or you don't have enough Tumble ranks to avoid movement-related AoOs from your opponent.

[Rubik]

... or you don't have enough Tumble ranks to avoid movement-related AoOs from your opponent.There are so many ways to avoid those things it's ridiculous.

[ZamielVanWeber]

What about more of a control build? Zhentarim Fighter gives a bunch of bonuses to intimidate. Take the Never Outnumbered skill trick and the Imperious Command feat and boom you can run in and cower everyone (or try at least). Combine with Thug for extra skill points (since you will be in fighter for a minimum on nine levels).

[Rubik]

What about more of a control build? Zhentarim Fighter gives a bunch of bonuses to intimidate. Take the Never Outnumbered skill trick and the Imperious Command feat and boom you can run in and cower everyone (or try at least). Combine with Thug for extra skill points (since you will be in fighter for a minimum on nine levels).You can take thug AND Zhentarim fighter AND dungeoncrasher. Take every ACF you can, since fighter isn't really any use past level 4, otherwise.

[Rebel7284]

Consider War Hulk from Miniatures Handbook.

They get a standard action attack that damages multiple squares and +2 Strength every level. Goliath Barbarians can take mountain rage to become large when raging, thus qualifying.

By the way, rules as written, monkey grip/powerful build/strongarm bracers do not stack.

As an alternative to Goliath, an Anthropomorphic Whale with Strongarm Bracers would be a large creature using a huge weapon (3HD, but 0LA), although if your DM is concerned about Warblades being too rare, Anthro-whales would probably be too rare too...

[ZamielVanWeber]

You can take thug AND Zhentarim fighter AND dungeoncrasher. Take every ACF you can, since fighter isn't really any use past level 4, otherwise.

I honestly was not sure if he wanted the feats. I find Thug + Zhentarim makes a fairly fun fighter. The biggest upside to dungeoncrasher is that it won't eat up thug's skill points.

As a side note you can take sneak attack thug with Zhentarim. While your opponents cowers they are vulnerable to sneak attack and you can rack up some serious damage that way. I honestly don't recommend it but it is an option.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Ordained Champion does this pretty well, using Smite + Channel + big weapon. It's better with martial strikes (because the way OC smite works, it stacks with strikes and channeling), but it works without.

[NapazTrix]

In accordance with a few other people, Dungeoncrasher is amazing if you go through buildings or dungeons for a good time of your campaign, it also means if your weapons are taken away you have a good "weapon" if there are walls around.

It doesn't add much besides that tbh, you could RP that your character hates pots and wears a lot of green and likes to smash them for the money inside.

[Rubik]

It doesn't add much besides that tbh, you could RP that your character hates pots and wears a lot of green and likes to smash them for the money inside.It does, however, give a great reason to bull-rush with the Shock Trooper feat, which expands your list of "effective melee tactics" to something beyond "trip 'n thwack," and it's another great tactic for battlefield control.

[Gulian]

Many of these suggestions are actually pretty golden. Taking Wolf Totem to eliminate Combat Expertise requirement and trip people with a Knockback + Knockdown combo and Dungeoncrasher + the natural bonuses a Goliath gets to such maneuvers would be pretty golden. And War Hulk 4 might be just the thing to make this work. I could chain this in with the Backstab feat with Combat Reflexes, meaning that anything the didn't attack me in the last round and is still in my threatened zone (Which with Goliath rage would be 10ft) would cause any enemies in three squares to recieve pretty substantial damage, be sent flying and fall prone. That's a pretty epic picture.

However, does War Hulk's 4th level ability allow you to AoO with its pseudo-whirlwind attack? It only says standard actions and full attacks, no AoOs. This strikes me as a specifc ability one can use on their turn, not something that would work with AoOs.

Also, my DM has allowed me to take Martial Study recently, however only limited to Tiger Claw, Stone Dragon and Iron Heart disciplines. Considering 1/2 initiator level progression, what would be your three maneuvers of choice (if I take it three times) and perhaps even stance of choice?

[Rebel7284]

Check Miniatures Handbook Errata.

War Hulk: In the mighty swing ability, replace "standard action" with "attack."

This also makes the rest of the ability make more sense with the whole "multiple attacks" thing. ;)

Therefore, it should work on AOOs too.

[Windrammer]

Hi! I've got a bit of an issue here from an optimization and general concept standpoint. My wizard character recently died a pretty gruesome death with no opportunity to resurrect him. It fell upon me to make a new character, and I decided to try something different. Namely, a martial character, but I hated their aspect of Walk Up -> Full Attack every round, so I decided to try and see what I could get if I focus on having a very big weapon (Goliath + Full-Blade + Monkey Grip) and doing standard action attacks. Of course, I was immediately drawn to the warblade. I made a general build with it and jumped right in (This happened the same day as the previous character's death) to roleplaying him. After the game itself, the DM told me that Martial Adepts are too rare and the entire practice is too new in his setting, meaning my character would have no one to learn from or would have to be a complete snowflake for it to work.

So, is there a way to make the most of a melee character's standard action without a single level in Warblade, Crusader and Swordsage or Martial Study? Or, to be even more specific, doing only one, big powerful attack?

I mean, just convince the DM to let you be the snowflake. Tome of Battle isn't cheesy or immersion breaking, and it gives you exactly what you need. If you are able to convince him you ought to, elsewise you'll be forced to do something goofy and flavorless as is being suggested to you here.

Orrr you can have some fun doing a Swiftblade. Haste+Spring attack makes for a much more interesting attack routine, you can hit someone and run out of their range.

[Rubik]

I mean, just convince the DM to let you be the snowflake. Tome of Battle isn't cheesy or immersion breaking, and it gives you exactly what you need. If you are able to convince him you ought to, elsewise you'll be forced to do something goofy and flavorless as is being suggested to you here.Be the founder of a style of martial arts. Your goal is to be the ultimate warrior and start your own school, going down in history as the best swordsman to ever live.