PDA

View Full Version : Gamer Humor Elves: Dos n' Don'ts



ThinkMinty
2015-10-12, 08:54 AM
So, like anyone who's ever had spare time, I've read a fair amount of things with elves in 'em. I find them...I dunno, complicated. On the one hand, they're cool. On the other hand, they're often presented as an insufferably smug cross between androgynous hippies and someone's idea of a master race.

So, elves: What makes them elves, and what shouldn't be done?

JAL_1138
2015-10-12, 09:02 AM
Well, any thri-kreen or halfling can tell you they're delicious with ketchup.

Anonymouswizard
2015-10-12, 09:46 AM
The key component of a traditional orcish kebab. Even dwarves have to agree that orcs know how to serve an elf.

Yeah, I'm really not fond of standard elves, although I like incredibly powerful and rare elves split into light and dark varieties. The kind that change the course of whole continents.

Before they walk across an orc and get cut down.

EDIT: silly me, Ireland doesn't have orcs.

Alberic Strein
2015-10-12, 10:04 AM
So, elves. They have it too good:

No aging/Immortality
Always attractive
Gracious
Nature-friendly, unlike us the nature destroying barbaric humans
Did I mention their innate skill for magic? Magic which tends to be horribly powerful?

Well, they tend to be physically weak though... Which only serves to turn them even more into pseudo nonviolent aristocrats.

Also, their whole "preserve forests" philosophy and lowish physical strength somehow lead them to massively use bows and arrows.

I just don't see, short of rewriting them completely, at which point you may as well call them Fae, how you can make sympathetic elves. Or more accurately, how you can make elvish traits sympathetic. The few nice elven characters we had were good characters despite being elves, and often their elvish traits were not accentuated.

I think the closest anyone got to a sympathetic elvish race was Andrzej Sapkowski in the very early Witcher novels, when they were just disjointed short stories and the elves were that kind of broken yet beautiful people whose race was utterly doomed, there was nothing nobody could ever do about it, they knew it, and they just wandered in and out of stories, often drawn in by beauty of some kind.

...And then... Well, let's just say that they didn't remain sympathetic for that long.

Ninja_Prawn
2015-10-12, 10:27 AM
I think the take-away from all the above posts is that everyone hates arrogant, holier-than-thou Mary Sues. In most RPG canons, these are 'racial traits' shared by most or all elves. Perhaps players shouldn't be allowed to play elves? Because if they want to be compelling, sympathetic characters with that 'relatable' 'humanity' that everyone loves, they've basically got to abandon the core of what it means to be an elf.

...Although, in my experience, people do that by default. I can't really bring to mind any elf PCs in games I've played or watched who actually behaved like elves.

VoxRationis
2015-10-12, 10:53 AM
DON'T make them imperialist Nazi-elves. It's been done to death in recent years (seriously, in the World-Building section of the forum, I see this interpretation of elves more often than not), and there's no point in calling them elves if you're going to change the core aspects of the race.

DON'T make them underachievers compared with humans, with the "Humans have such short lives, it gives them an immense drive to achieve" excuse. Have you ever heard the phrase "Eat drink, and be merry, for tomorrow we may die?" Having a short life excuses lack of planning and investment. Having a long life to plan for makes it more important to plan ahead and set yourself up for the long haul.

DO show that your elves aren't perfect. They've made mistakes, sometimes innocent, sometimes not. If it seems like they've made fewer mistakes, it's probably because they've had more time to try to fix them.

DO cut back on the holier-than-thou crap. It's really annoying, and it's 90% of the reason why there's a backlash against elves.

DO show cultural differences between different (biologically identical) groups of elves. This goes for dwarves, halflings, and goblins as well. Since an elf is capable of both imitation and innovation, as well as cultural learning, it stands to reason that differences in culture would develop between different elven populations.

DO be aware of the downsides of the "elven way of life." Not ever mining or clearing trees has serious impacts on a society's productive capacity. If the elves have a 10,000-strong army clad in shining armor and armed with swords, they either do mine and clear trees, and you just don't see them do it, or they have a fantastic long-term storage facility to keep all those arms in serviceable condition for hundreds upon hundreds of years.


@Alberic: Lots of forest-living cultures make use of bows and arrows (although many of the best bowmaking and archery traditions come from more open areas). The strength thing is often a problem, though. A realistic interpretation would be that while the bow is traditional for the elves, for hunting and the like, they aren't actually particularly good with them, compared with other cultures that use bows. Or maybe the elves, Constitution penalties or no, have a lot stronger back muscles than people give them credit for. In any case, it makes more sense than dwarves, who almost exclusively wield weapons that are ineffective for their size and typical environment (no wonder their halls are always getting overrun by something or another!).

goto124
2015-10-12, 10:57 AM
I think of elves as agile dexterous people with low Con, who're good at agile dexterous stuff, and happen to have pointy ears.

Keltest
2015-10-12, 11:31 AM
I think of elves as agile dexterous people with low Con, who're good at agile dexterous stuff, and happen to have pointy ears.

My thoughts as well. Anything else about them comes as a result of hundreds of years of life rather than being an inherent trait of elves.

Honest Tiefling
2015-10-12, 12:07 PM
I think of elves as agile dexterous people with low Con, who're good at agile dexterous stuff, and happen to have pointy ears.

I agree. Well, maybe with a dash of kidnapping and magic.

Which is why I find the don't of not making them imperialist or racially motivated somewhat strange. It might be done over and over, but not all groups have seen it (I haven't for starters) and there is nothing wrong with cliches, just depends on how you use them. Given that many players (And some authors) use the elven mindset to either turn a blind eye to the suffering or others or to try to get those pesky two-legged vermin off their land, this seems like a pretty logical conclusion.

So, if you do end up making them racist imperialist, make them interesting beyond that. One example, through not an RPG are the elves of Lorwyn who believe all other races are ugly and deserve death for it. They are obsessed with beauty, so it's a new take on things and explains why they are physically attractive. Because if you aren't, you get culled.

AceOfFools
2015-10-12, 12:20 PM
DO show cultural differences between different (biologically identical) groups of elves. This goes for dwarves, halflings, and goblins as well. Since an elf is capable of both imitation and innovation, as well as cultural learning, it stands to reason that differences in culture would develop between different elven populations..

Quoted for truth.

When building a race for an rpg, you should look for what fantasy your allowing players to experience. What can they do as an elf that they couldn't do if the game was human only?

Part of the problem with elves is the Tolkien-esq fantasy of elves is "people who are better." More magical, more in tune with nature, more moral, more wise, more beautiful, more powerful, immirtal, etc. Legolas drinks Gili under the table in one of the Peter Jackson LotR movies.

DON'T do that. "The better than others" fantastic is toxic to a healthy tabletop rpg play environment, at least one where a group of elves and not elves can sit together as nominal equals.

So you have to decide which elements you do want to keep.

You can run with the nature thing, allowing elves intimate knowledge of trees and plants. Make them natural druid-types (pun very much intended).

You could run with the magic thing, granting elves greater than normal ability to detect and identify magic. Pick how magic works in the setting and make them a strong fit.

You could run with the beautiful thing, and grant them power of song and tale, perhaps wit no lands of their own. Make them a great fit for whatever bards are in setting.

DON'T run with the morally better thing. It's simply offensive and inconsistent to say that X isn't as bad when race Y does it. Plus it's really anoying.

Mastikator
2015-10-12, 12:44 PM
Here's one thing you should definitely do, let them live according to artificial cultural rules that they themselves think are justified by nature, that contaminates their view of nature and make it impossible for them to do *science without letting go of their beliefs.



*by "do science" I mean develop a fact based world view

Wraith
2015-10-12, 12:51 PM
The Elves that I know best come from the Warhammer franchise, in which they have a number of notable traits.

To begin with, the Elven race is dying.
Theirs was the second of the great Empires that spread across the world, preceding to the great human civilisations by tens of thousands of years. Unfortunately, their great civil war also precedes the humans by tens of thousands of years. While it's a long and convoluted story, the broad gist of it is that there was a dispute over the line of succession to the Throne and the race split into three - the High Elves, who inhabit the traditional Elven homeland and still claim ownership of the Imperial bloodline; the Dark Elves who supported the failed usurper and were forced to flee to the cold and hostile realm of Naggaroth; and the Wood Elves who, tired of the ongoing political strife and violent clashes, left to found a Lothlorien-style one-with-nature home in the forest of Athel Loren.

The High Elves are the holier-than-thou jerks that everyone tends to think of. Dark Elves are essentially Drow, sadistic and bloodthirsty. Wood Elves are generally peaceful, though highly isolationist and xenophobic.
Each of these attitudes are, broadly speaking, coping mechanisms for the deeply ingrained knowledge that their race is in the twilight of it's existence. Their greatest victories are millenia in the past, and with the energetic rise of the human Empire and the onslaught of the Forces of Darkness there is no chance that they will eve rappraoch anything like recovery.
The High Elves sneer and act imperious, hiding their own insecurity behind a false aura of mysticism while human prodigies begin to encroach on their mastery of magic and ancient secrets. The Dark Elves raid, pillage and murder as much out of spite as necessity, unable to match the Orcs in number or brutality. The Wood Elves are in hiding - they have no great play for the End Times, they just want to bury their heads in the sand and hope that the badness will pass them by.

In all cases, their arrogance - the assumed knowledge that their way is the only one which will succeed where the others are doomed - makes them inflexible and unable to change from the same futile path ahead. Elves are "perfect".... But only in their own minds' eye.

The other thing about Warhammer Elves is that, while they are beautiful, it's only in a shallow and superficial way. Even the evil ones are tall, lithe and glamorous. They have wide eyes, high cheek bones, luxuriant hair and flawless skin; everything that a human aristocrat wants to be.

But ever so, to a human they are.... wrong. Their skeletal frames are too long, thin and wiry. Their expressions don't always equate with a human emotion - presuming that they are even capable of human emotion. They move with grace, yet it's not the careful poise of a dancer but the alien smoothness of something otherworldly. They exist squarely in the realm of the uncanny valley, appearing similar to humans but with wide gulfs caused by the small differences.

snacksmoto
2015-10-12, 01:35 PM
I think the closest anyone got to a sympathetic elvish race was Andrzej Sapkowski in the very early Witcher novels, when they were just disjointed short stories and the elves were that kind of broken yet beautiful people whose race was utterly doomed, there was nothing nobody could ever do about it, they knew it, and they just wandered in and out of stories, often drawn in by beauty of some kind.

...And then... Well, let's just say that they didn't remain sympathetic for that long.

I really like what Andrzej Sapkowski had done to explain part of why such a long-lived, prosperous race is in decline and disappearing.

For those who don't know, he made it cannon in his world that only the younger elves can reproduce. He also combined that with a war under an extremely charismatic elven leader in a failed campaign, betrayed by allies if I remember correctly. Most of the younger elves perished in the war which leaves only the few survivors and those too young to have participated left to repopulate the race. Most of them are too angry and bitter to think of calmly repopulating, wanting the return of a powerful elvish nation. They are participating in gurella warfare tactics just to strike back and losing more of those precious few who can save the race. The ones who are not retaliating have given up their heritage for the security of the human cities where they are treated as second-class citizens, often subjected to human retaliation from the gurella warfare the other elves are involved in. The city elves have been ideologically abandoned for giving up on the elvish heritage and traditions.

They still have many of the traits of sterotypical elves but gives a logical reason for their decline.

GungHo
2015-10-12, 03:30 PM
I don't mind making "Elves are Better" Elves. I always make it clear that they're full of s***, though, and maybe they even know it, but they'll never admit it. I don't make them braggardly, though. It's all very matter of fact... like dealing with Vulcans. "You are a credit to humanity", "As this is surprisingly pleasant for a dwarf district", etc. Compliments are backhanded. Expectations are clearly both high and low. It's not to the level of "ok, I think you're morons, so I'm taking this magic away from you", but there is a sort of tact to the point of tactlessness on display. They do have friends though, and care for their friends. They're just repressed. You learn why when you follow them home to Elftown and it's clear that their parents and leaders treat them this way. Hell, the ones you meet on the road are the ones that escaped. The "civilized" elves mostly make faces at each other, and you can't even hear them chewing at dinner.

oudeis
2015-10-12, 05:41 PM
I've always thought Tolkien's depiction of elves and Faerie in The Smith of Wootton Major was utterly perfect. Brief as it is, it conveys the terrible power and grandeur of them and the world in which they dwell:


... for he soon became wise and understood that the marvels of Faery cannot be approached without danger, and that many of the Evils cannot be challenged without weapons of power too great for any mortal to wield. He remained a learner and explorer, not a warrior; and though in time he could have forged weapons that in his own world would have had power enough to become the matter of great tales and be worth a king's ransom, he knew that in Faery they would have been of small account. So among all the things that he made it is not remembered that he ever forged a sword or a spear or an arrow-head.

In Faery at first he walked for the most part quietly among the lesser folk and the gentler creatures in the woods and meads of fair valleys, and by the bright waters in which at night strange stars shone and at dawn the gleaming peaks of far mountains were mirrored. Some of his briefer visits he spent looking only at one tree or one flower; but later in longer journeys he had seen things of both beauty and terror that he could not clearly remember nor report to his friends, though he knew that they dwelt deep in his heart. But some things he did not forget, and they remained in his mind as wonders and mysteries that he often recalled.

When he first began to walk far without a guide he thought he would discover the further bounds of the land; but great mountains rose before him, and going by long ways round about them he came at last to a desolate shore. He stood beside the Sea of Windless Storm where the blue waves like snow-clad hills roll silently out of Unlight to the long strand, bearing the white ships that return from battles on the Dark Marches of which men know nothing. He saw a great ship cast high upon the land, and the waters fell back in foam without a sound. The elven mariners were tall and terrible; their swords shone and their spears glinted and a piercing light was in their eyes. Suddenly they lifted up their voices in a song of triumph, and his heart was shaken with fear, and he fell upon his face, and they passed over him and went away into the echoing hills.

Of course, making them this powerful and alien virtually precludes using them as a playable race, though they would make excellent behind-the-scenes movers and players.

Anonymouswizard
2015-10-12, 06:04 PM
The Elves that I know best come from the Warhammer franchise, in which they have a number of notable traits.

To begin with, the Elven race is dying.
Theirs was the second of the great Empires that spread across the world, preceding to the great human civilisations by tens of thousands of years. Unfortunately, their great civil war also precedes the humans by tens of thousands of years. While it's a long and convoluted story, the broad gist of it is that there was a dispute over the line of succession to the Throne and the race split into three - the High Elves, who inhabit the traditional Elven homeland and still claim ownership of the Imperial bloodline; the Dark Elves who supported the failed usurper and were forced to flee to the cold and hostile realm of Naggaroth; and the Wood Elves who, tired of the ongoing political strife and violent clashes, left to found a Lothlorien-style one-with-nature home in the forest of Athel Loren.

The High Elves are the holier-than-thou jerks that everyone tends to think of. Dark Elves are essentially Drow, sadistic and bloodthirsty. Wood Elves are generally peaceful, though highly isolationist and xenophobic.
Each of these attitudes are, broadly speaking, coping mechanisms for the deeply ingrained knowledge that their race is in the twilight of it's existence. Their greatest victories are millenia in the past, and with the energetic rise of the human Empire and the onslaught of the Forces of Darkness there is no chance that they will eve rappraoch anything like recovery.
The High Elves sneer and act imperious, hiding their own insecurity behind a false aura of mysticism while human prodigies begin to encroach on their mastery of magic and ancient secrets. The Dark Elves raid, pillage and murder as much out of spite as necessity, unable to match the Orcs in number or brutality. The Wood Elves are in hiding - they have no great play for the End Times, they just want to bury their heads in the sand and hope that the badness will pass them by.

In all cases, their arrogance - the assumed knowledge that their way is the only one which will succeed where the others are doomed - makes them inflexible and unable to change from the same futile path ahead. Elves are "perfect".... But only in their own minds' eye.

The other thing about Warhammer Elves is that, while they are beautiful, it's only in a shallow and superficial way. Even the evil ones are tall, lithe and glamorous. They have wide eyes, high cheek bones, luxuriant hair and flawless skin; everything that a human aristocrat wants to be.

But ever so, to a human they are.... wrong. Their skeletal frames are too long, thin and wiry. Their expressions don't always equate with a human emotion - presuming that they are even capable of human emotion. They move with grace, yet it's not the careful poise of a dancer but the alien smoothness of something otherworldly. They exist squarely in the realm of the uncanny valley, appearing similar to humans but with wide gulfs caused by the small differences.

Yet another reason why getting rid of the Old World was a bad idea (along with the fact that the Empire was less than 100 years away from basically winning against Chaos, I've mentioned it a couple of times on this forum but one of my friends has a GURPS setting based on this).


I don't mind making "Elves are Better" Elves. I always make it clear that they're full of s***, though, and maybe they even know it, but they'll never admit it. I don't make them braggardly, though. It's all very matter of fact... like dealing with Vulcans. "You are a credit to humanity", "As this is surprisingly pleasant for a dwarf district", etc. Compliments are backhanded. Expectations are clearly both high and low. It's not to the level of "ok, I think you're morons, so I'm taking this magic away from you", but there is a sort of tact to the point of tactlessness on display. They do have friends though, and care for their friends. They're just repressed. You learn why when you follow them home to Elftown and it's clear that their parents and leaders treat them this way. Hell, the ones you meet on the road are the ones that escaped. The "civilized" elves mostly make faces at each other, and you can't even hear them chewing at dinner.

It actually sounds rather good. Next thing you know the dwarf ran away from home because he didn't want to spend all his time working for glorious mother clan*.

* In seriousness, at some point I plan to do actual research and write up a dwarf culture based on Russia, but so far my notes consist of 'ruler is named after Caesar'.

Vitruviansquid
2015-10-12, 06:29 PM
I think the Lord of the Ringsy type of superior-to-thou, holier-than-thou, dying-race type of elf is fine. There is absolutely nothing at all wrong with it... in the right context.

Those types of elves give players a sense of the wonder and mysticism of a bygone era that, once dead, can never be revisited. Sometimes that is appropriate, and can help make a great campaign hook. For example, if the PCs have to protect one of the last elven enclaves from something evil that seeks to destroy it, the status of elves as something dying and beautiful will give an emotional motivation. If the players are familiarized with a beautiful, mystical elven culture, and then discover an evil, rogue elf that uses his great powers to perverse ends, the height and majesty of elven culture further emphasizes the horror of an evil elf. Portrayals of elves in this vein only fail to work in RPG systems (like DnD in particular) that ends up making the wondrous mundane, and so rob the mysticism from everything.

As well, some players want to be from a superior-to-thou, holier-than-thou dying race. There's nothing wrong that aside from if you suspect that it may be a product of a player holding... racially insensitive views... in the real world. In any case, this doesn't mean your player elf must be better at everything than everyone all the time. A sense of scale would help here, if you say that the elf PC is an average or above-average member of the race while human PCs are true heroes among humanity. Look at Lord of the Rings - elves there are mystical, magical supermen, but Legolas is more or less a comic relief character alongside Gimli and does not overshadow Aragorn or the other fighting members of the fellowship.

Temotei
2015-10-12, 06:33 PM
I like to use afroakuma's So You Want to Play an Elf (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?258370-So-You-Want-To-Play-An-Elf-(3-5-Fluff)) when thinking about elves in general.

The Bandicoot
2015-10-12, 07:37 PM
Whenever I think about playing an elf, I don't. Can't stand the stereotypical elf. Though I have seen elves with a twist before, I seem to recall some version that put them as death-obsessed necromancers....

goto124
2015-10-12, 09:30 PM
DON'T run with the morally better thing. It's simply offensive and inconsistent to say that X isn't as bad when race Y does it. Plus it's really anoying.

But if the elves only think they're morally better, and the PCs get to smack them upside the head... :smallamused:

ThinkMinty
2015-10-13, 12:23 AM
But if the elves only think they're morally better, and the PCs get to smack them upside the head... :smallamused:

Screw You, Elves! (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ScrewYouElves) exists for reasons.

Tvtyrant
2015-10-13, 12:43 AM
I rather like the suped up Tolkein style Elf. The big thing is that elves are fantastically rare in most settings, so warfare is a crapshoot. Winning a battle frequently deals more permanent damage to an elven society then to the losing side, so they have to rely on perfect victories or avoiding war at all costs to survive.

AceOfFools
2015-10-13, 08:26 AM
But if the elves only think they're morally better, and the PCs get to smack them upside the head... :smallamused:

That's... not what I call a good solution for a worldbuilder/game designer who wants to include playable elves.

If a player wants to play "the morally better", and you present them with an option that claims to be that, they will be extremely frustrated when it's not (I speak from experience).

"Elves as hypocrites" as a design elements basically serves to say "elf fanboys arent welcome here." It can work in a setting/game, but only among players who are sick of the stereotype of "elves as better."

Since such players are unlikely to want to play elves.

I'll also throw out that if you go with "elves as hypocrites," you are actually following my advice, as they aren't morally better. :-)

Anonymouswizard
2015-10-13, 08:44 AM
I think there's also the 'everybody plays an elf' problem (which is why, if I run Planescape, it'll be planars only). I've seen parties which were more than 50% elven or half elven (at one point my human fighter was the only non-pointy ear). I don't actually dislike elves, I'm just sick of them.

Which is why I think I like Dark Sun's elves, as I've never seen an elf played like that, it's normally all 'prettiness' and 'elf forest living is better' (bah, give me a dwarven cave with actual technology anyway, I'll help them create more devices). The idea of elves being indifferent to those left behind is great.

comicshorse
2015-10-13, 08:55 AM
the High Elves, who inhabit the traditional Elven homeland and still claim ownership of the Imperial bloodline; the Dark Elves who supported the failed usurper and were forced to flee to the cold and hostile realm of Naggaroth; and the Wood Elves who, tired of the ongoing political strife and violent clashes, left to found a Lothlorien-style one-with-nature home in the forest of Athel Loren.

The High Elves are the holier-than-thou jerks that everyone tends to think of. Dark Elves are essentially Drow, sadistic and bloodthirsty. Wood Elves are generally peaceful, though highly isolationist and xenophobic.
/QUOTE]

There's the Sea Elves to, who live mainly on their ships and have the most contact with Humanity who they trade with extensively

P.S
Posted by Annonymous Wizard
[QUOTE] Yet another reason why getting rid of the Old World was a bad idea (along with the fact that the Empire was less than 100 years away from basically winning against Chaos, I've mentioned it a couple of times on this forum but one of my friends has a GURPS setting based on this).

Sounds interesting. Any links ?

Anonymouswizard
2015-10-13, 09:11 AM
Sounds interesting. Any links ?

No, I don't know how far along it is, if it appears online at some point I'll link it though.

LudicSavant
2015-10-13, 09:57 AM
DON'T make them imperialist Nazi-elves. It's been done to death in recent years (seriously, in the World-Building section of the forum, I see this interpretation of elves more often than not), and there's no point in calling them elves if you're going to change the core aspects of the race.

Is that really even a "change" from a canon filled with sources like the Complete Book of Elves?

Anyways, the issue with what I'm seeing posters refer to as "morally better" elves is that this is, in my experience, almost always an informed attribute (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/InformedAttribute) in the elves of official D&D settings. The problem isn't that they're morally better, it's that the author or the elves say they're morally better while actually acting no better than anyone else in particular.

For instance, if elves use guerilla tactics, we're told that that means they're quick and clever and bold. If goblins use guerilla tactics, we're told that that means they're malevolent and craven and underhanded. There's no moral superiority there... only double standards.

Garimeth
2015-10-13, 12:00 PM
I like how in Elder Scrolls the wood elves only eat meat and revere plants. Kind of like the Dark Sun halflings being cannibals.

I also like Dark Sun elves.

comicshorse
2015-10-13, 12:49 PM
No, I don't know how far along it is, if it appears online at some point I'll link it though.

Please do, it sounds good,and its not like WFRP couldn't do with some good background (mutters darkly about 'Age of Sigmar' and wanders off)

Regitnui
2015-10-13, 03:11 PM
Whenever I think about playing an elf, I don't. Can't stand the stereotypical elf. Though I have seen elves with a twist before, I seem to recall some version that put them as death-obsessed necromancers....

That's Eberron's Aereni elves; they believe that even their lifetime is too short to fully appreciate living, so preserve their dead as "undying" positive-energy undead who keel over (again) if they leave their designated cities.

Eberron also has the war-hungry Valenar; who keep fighting because their great heroic ancestors fought, and will fight you because you look like a good way to bring honour to the ancestor; and the city elves, who are either artists, spies, both, or fuller of *cough* than a constipated coprophage. Of course, even the gnomes and orcs are better people than the elves of Eberron.

Coidzor
2015-10-13, 03:36 PM
The key to Elves is that they're mockable in some form or fashion, really.

Cluedrew
2015-10-13, 07:09 PM
When I use elves I like to mix in a little bit of "Santa's elves" in, that is to say it is more whimsical than noble.

The other ways I have considered handling it are making them very mechanically disinclined. Like they trade with humans to get someone to fix there mill so they can make bread level mechanically disinclined. ... I now want to write a short story about elves being amazed at human's mechanical skills and their physical abilities that allow them to work all day without collapsing. Maybe make a joke about muscular humans matching some elven standards of beauty. That might be fun.

The only time I've ever used super-human elves is when they were literally super humans. The god touched which gave them the magic, long life and connection to the world you usually see.

Kitten Champion
2015-10-13, 08:01 PM
I've personally always had issues with long-lived or immortal PC races such as Elves insofar that even if they've lived a long time their personal life experience is going to be roughly on par with any Creature of a similar level. That it doesn't matter whether you've written the character's age as 20 or 120 if that century amounts to nothing in their characterization.

Though I think the same basic advice I'd give anyone trying to avoid stereotypical approaches to characters of any stripe would apply equally to Elves. namely create several possible characters who are Elves before picking one. Even if you like your original idea and ultimately decide upon it, thinking of some alternatives can put things into needed perspective and if you can't think of any it might be a sign you're not really into it or need more information to go with.

Piedmon_Sama
2015-10-13, 08:08 PM
DO: always take credit for your party's victories as if they were all guided by your oh-so-subtle Elven hand. "Well fought, comrades--I truly did well to choose you as my companions," that kind of thing.


DON'T: Admit that Elves fart. Ever. They just don't, okay?

Jay R
2015-10-14, 08:18 AM
If you wish to have a Tolkien-like rivalry between the elves and the dwarves, you need to invent some long-ago issue between them in which each is partly wrong.

Otherwise it's just modern trash-talk, and they sound like sports fans.

VoxRationis
2015-10-14, 06:42 PM
DO: Whether your campaign's elves are sympathetic or antagonistic, play them as schemers. Their lives are long and their numbers few; they are well-suited to subtle guidance of world affairs.

Sredni Vashtar
2015-10-14, 08:05 PM
DON'T: Admit that Elves fart. Ever. They just don't, okay?

I like this, perhaps expanding on it would work. Elves don't fart. Or belch. Or vomit. Or anything that so-called "cultured" humans claim not to do. Elves are just biologically cleaner.

The classic Elven arrogance should remove the words "I'm sorry" (and all derivatives) from their lexicon. They can be good, kind, and just, but humility just doesn't really jive with being an elf. (This also makes the elf that does admit to a mistake an impressive individual.)

Blackhawk748
2015-10-14, 08:16 PM
DON'T make them imperialist Nazi-elves. It's been done to death in recent years (seriously, in the World-Building section of the forum, I see this interpretation of elves more often than not), and there's no point in calling them elves if you're going to change the core aspects of the race.

DON'T make them underachievers compared with humans, with the "Humans have such short lives, it gives them an immense drive to achieve" excuse. Have you ever heard the phrase "Eat drink, and be merry, for tomorrow we may die?" Having a short life excuses lack of planning and investment. Having a long life to plan for makes it more important to plan ahead and set yourself up for the long haul.


I disagree with the first part, Master Race Elves have their place in fantasy fiction (usually as the bad guys) and since we arent rally changing a core concept (just cranking the arrogant holier than thou attitude to 11) they are still Elves. Ive done it in a setting i made, but i made sure to make a group of elves that hate the Jerk-wad ones.

I agree with the second part though, making them advance slow is one thing, but they should be one of the most stably advanced societies. Obviously groups with less focus on peoples safety could be more advanced, but i see Elves as safety conscious which should slow them down a bit.

Anonymouswizard
2015-10-14, 08:20 PM
I disagree with the first part, Master Race Elves have their place in fantasy fiction (usually as the bad guys) and since we arent rally changing a core concept (just cranking the arrogant holier than thou attitude to 11) they are still Elves. Ive done it in a setting i made, but i made sure to make a group of elves that hate the Jerk-wad ones.

I agree with the second part though, making them advance slow is one thing, but they should be one of the most stably advanced societies. Obviously groups with less focus on peoples safety could be more advanced, but i see Elves as safety conscious which should slow them down a bit.

I've considered doing the opposite of Master Race Elves in one of my settings. Elves that are so humble and respectful that they never developed technology for fear of angering nature.

Living in tree houses grown out of the tree? It's a pact with the tree's spirit that they elf will keep it healthy in exchange for a place to live.

Ancient quarrel with the dwarves? Dwarves are just hoping the elves will grow a backbone.

Lots of half-elves running around? Elves have a difficult time saying no.

Human scholars are actually surprised that the elves haven't died out from apathy. It's only a matter of time before half-elf births outnumber elf births.

Blackhawk748
2015-10-14, 08:24 PM
I've considered doing the opposite of Master Race Elves in one of my settings. Elves that are so humble and respectful that they never developed technology for fear of angering nature.

Living in tree houses grown out of the tree? It's a pact with the tree's spirit that they elf will keep it healthy in exchange for a place to live.

Ancient quarrel with the dwarves? Dwarves are just hoping the elves will grow a backbone.

Lots of half-elves running around? Elves have a difficult time saying no.

Human scholars are actually surprised that the elves haven't died out from apathy. It's only a matter of time before half-elf births outnumber elf births.

Ok, this is hilarious

Anonymouswizard
2015-10-14, 08:43 PM
Ok, this is hilarious

I'm glad you like it.

On the subject of imperialistic master race elves, what always annoys me is the double standard. They murder every orc they come across it's 'righteous' and 'saving the world from a great evil'.

But when I murder every goblin I come across it's 'an evil act' and 'a violation of my paladin status'. It's just nuts, I tell you.

Blackhawk748
2015-10-14, 08:45 PM
I'm glad you like it.

On the subject of imperialistic master race elves, what always annoys me is the double standard. They murder every orc they come across it's 'righteous' and 'saving the world from a great evil'.

But when I murder every goblin I come across it's 'an evil act' and 'a violation of my paladin status'. It's just nuts, I tell you.

This is why i refuse to hang out with High Elves, Wood Elves are just more fun.

napoleon_in_rag
2015-10-14, 08:57 PM
I think there's also the 'everybody plays an elf' problem (which is why, if I run Planescape, it'll be planars only). I've seen parties which were more than 50% elven or half elven (at one point my human fighter was the only non-pointy ear). I don't actually dislike elves, I'm just sick of them.

Yeah, that bugs me sometimes. In LOTR, elves are extremely rare and secretive. Most people have never met one. But every D&D party seems to be 50% elven.

But what do you do as a DM, NOT let your players be elves? Make them roll for race? I would be interested to hear how other DMs handle this.


Which is why I think I like Dark Sun's elves, as I've never seen an elf played like that, it's normally all 'prettiness' and 'elf forest living is better' (bah, give me a dwarven cave with actual technology anyway, I'll help them create more devices). The idea of elves being indifferent to those left behind is great.

I love the way Dark Sun handled the races:

Savage, feral halflings
Tribal, wandering elves
Hairless Dwarves

Plus Thrikreen, Muls, Half Giants. Awesome fun

In my opinion, the best campaign world because it got the farthest from Tolkien. Planescape is also pretty good.

TripleD
2015-10-14, 09:04 PM
If they are hauty, give them a reason for their hautiness beyond just "they're pretty".

For example, in The Elder Scrolls the division between Man and Mer (elves) is less "humans and elves" and more "Muslims and Christians" in that the division has less to do with biology than religion. Thousands of years ago humans and elves were the same race called the Ehlnofey. Then they split into two main branches, with one branch condemming Lorkhan, the trickster god, for creating the world and trapping them in mortal bodies, and the other believing that Lorkhans curse was a blessing, a path to higher enlightenment*. The hostility between men and elves is due to each side feeling the other is fundamentally wrong about the universe.

*Granted this is an oversimplification. Dunmer have a generally positive view of Lorkhan, and Redguards a negative (albeit for different reasons than the elves).

Anonymouswizard
2015-10-14, 09:11 PM
Yeah, that bugs me sometimes. In LOTR, elves are extremely rare and secretive. Most people have never met one. But every D&D party seems to be 50% elven.

But what do you do as a DM, NOT let your players be elves? Make them roll for race? I would be interested to hear how other DMs handle this.

My next campaign is either Dark Sun or all planar Planescape, based on how much of the Complete Psionics Handbook I'm willing to print (what, you thought the game I'd run would be based on something else). So either I'll be dealing with elves I actually like (and a mainly or all-elven party would actually make a small bit of sense in Dark Sun), or there will be no elves at all.

I'm also considering putting a party-wide limit on nonhuman characters in subsequent games I'm playing. I think the only time I'd lift it is in the 'the players should probably not play non-humans' Anima system where I have an all-nephilim campaign planned. Although it would only lead to strictly 50% elf 50% human parties.

I think the best one I've seen was when I was GMing a Shadowrun 5e game.
Metatypes:
1 human
1 dwarf
1 troll (who lasted one session)
1 ork
3 elves, maybe 4

So the party was dominated by the least common metatype on the planet, and the one least likely to be in shadowrunning (dwarves and especially orks and trolls being looked down upon).

Not quite as bad percentage-wise as the 'three elves, two half-elves, and a human' game of Pathfinder I was in (I would have been a dwarf, but they were banned, so human), but it made the least sense setting-wise (now an all-elven gangShadowrunning team I could understand).


I love the way Dark Sun handled the races:

Savage, feral halflings
Tribal, wandering elves
Hairless Dwarves

Plus Thrikreen, Muls, Half Giants. Awesome fun

In my opinion, the best campaign world because it got the farthest from Tolkien. Planescape is also pretty good.

Guess why those are my two favourite D&D settings (also the first two I bought when I decided to switch to AD&D2e, I actually realised 2 minutes after buying Dark Sun that the Complete Psionics Handbook might be useful).

goto124
2015-10-14, 09:11 PM
Lots of half-elves running around? Elves have a difficult time saying no.

:smalleek:

I suppose it translates into a low Will save or something? Does that mean low Wis? Does it even have to be mechanical?

And the fluff part of being a doormat doesn't apply to PCs right? Hard to be an adventurer with such softness, and IMHO it's not really enjoyable to play when you have so little input into your own character. Or did I miss something?

Anonymouswizard
2015-10-14, 09:25 PM
:smalleek:

I suppose it translates into a low Will save or something? Does that mean low Wis? Does it even have to be mechanical?

It's specifically meant to be horrible, and most elves would have a low will save. Something is fundamentally WRONG with the elves, because their god wanted them easily controlled. One of the campaign goals for the PCs would be fixing this (most elves would still remain soft, but be more like really nice people than their current form).

Thanks to natural selection the drow of the world aren't evil, but are far less 'elven' than the other races. They don't have as good industry as most, but they are the only race so far to have invented the pistol, and have a racial bonus to will saves.


And the fluff part of being a doormat doesn't apply to PCs right? Hard to be an adventurer with such softness, and IMHO it's not really enjoyable to play when you have so little input into your own character. Or did I miss something?

What kind of elf would leave their homes? PCs are assumed to have something different about them in this world, for elves it's actually being willing to stand up for themselves, dwarves it's being unable to link their mind with others (yeah, why do you think dwarves are so industrious), for humans it's not having a specific life in the stars, and so on.

Jay R
2015-10-14, 10:05 PM
Yeah, that bugs me sometimes. In LOTR, elves are extremely rare and secretive. Most people have never met one. But every D&D party seems to be 50% elven.

But what do you do as a DM, NOT let your players be elves? Make them roll for race? I would be interested to hear how other DMs handle this.

All versions of D&D until E3 had this covered, by giving elves and other non-humans a substantial penalty as adventurers, which had no effect on non-adventurers (level limits). If your parties have too many non-humans, go back to using the tool developed specifically to reduce the number of non-human PCs without outlawing them.

goto124
2015-10-14, 11:09 PM
Why do people consider 'too many elves' a thing bad enough to be counteracted? How about 'too many humans'?

VoxRationis
2015-10-15, 01:27 AM
Why do people consider 'too many elves' a thing bad enough to be counteracted? How about 'too many humans'?

Beats me. Dwarves also get a free pass for some reason.

Gettles
2015-10-15, 02:43 AM
All versions of D&D until E3 had this covered, by giving elves and other non-humans a substantial penalty as adventurers, which had no effect on non-adventurers (level limits). If your parties have too many non-humans, go back to using the tool developed specifically to reduce the number of non-human PCs without outlawing them.

Of course than you run into that other dumb trope "Humans are just better for some reason"

ThinkMinty
2015-10-15, 05:56 AM
Of course than you run into that other dumb trope "Humans are just better for some reason"

It's honestly the bonus feat.

Keltest
2015-10-15, 06:47 AM
It's honestly the bonus feat.

Stat bonuses are certainly more attractive in a world where feats are not the end all be all determining factor for character power.

Mr. Mask
2015-10-15, 06:55 AM
Nearly all these descriptions of elves are horrible....

Stop thinking about what not to do, and what to do. Tolkien's elves were merry, they liked to sing and tell tales and throw great feasts, and were happy to let others join in. I'm not sure where the idea of elves disdaining and being rude to other races comes from, as they didn't have such altercations in the main inspiration for the "modern" elf. If an elf was rude to a dwarven or human guest, or companion, the other elves would likely be embarrassed.

So if someone plays an arrogant elf that disdains others in their words and deeds, have other elves want nothing to do with them, but be too polite to cajole them for it (they might hint).

Jay R
2015-10-15, 09:00 AM
Tolkien's elves were merry, they liked to sing and tell tales and throw great feasts, and were happy to let others join in. I'm not sure where the idea of elves disdaining and being rude to other races comes from,...

From the facts that:
1. Rivendell was nearly impossible to find without a wizard to guide you,
2. The elves turned out their lights and fled when hungry dwarves entered the clearing with their fest,
3. The dwarves were then captured and held prisoner on no charges,
4. Gildor's elves had a feast hall in the Shire that they didn't open up to hobbits generally,
5. Elrond didn't think a kuman could be good enough for his daughter unless he became king first,
6. Lothlorien was extremely hard to find, deep in a forest,
7. A party who was supposed to be helping the elves was only allowed in while blindfolded.

"Disdain" and "rudeness" may be an overstatement for what could just be reclusiveness, but it's not a completely unreasonable conclusion.

Mr. Mask
2015-10-15, 09:48 AM
1: Sounds nicely defensible.

2: It seems they didn't realize the dwarves' predicament. A bunch of armed vagabonds suddenly trounced in on their feast in the middle of the forest no one ventures into, so they were understandably suspicious. It was a bit weird they didn't capture the dwarves sooner, though. Leaving them to the spiders seemed a bit much.

3: Well, the King had this to say, after they angered him by accusing him of keeping the evil spiders as pets, "It is a crime to wander in my realm without leave. Do you forget that you were in my kingdom, using the road that my people made? Did you not three times pursue and trouble my people in the forest and ' rouse the spiders with your riot and clamour? After all the disturbance you have made I have a right to know what brings you here, and if you will not tell me now, I will keep you all in prison until you have learned sense and manners!" More specifically, they were being evasive to the elves questioning, so they seemed suspicious. And I think the implication was that the king was only holding them prisoner until they explained themselves. Notably, disturbing the spiders who may go on to attack the elves seemed to be a point of anger for the elves.

4: The elves also welcomed Frodo and Sam to join them when they stumbled upon the elves near the start of their journey. It seems like the hobbits as a whole weren't really that interested in joining the elven celebrations, or else they might've had a presence at the hall. Generally, it is a bit rude to push into someone else's banquet, the hobbits had their own celebrations they took part in.

5: Elrond wasn't just any elf. He was Elrond, half-elf prince, over 6,000 years old, the Lord of Imladris. It should also be noted that while Elrond said he had to become king first, he very much seemed to want Aragorn to reclaim his title as king, and helped him to do so. The way I saw it, it was more a matter of, "sure, I'm happy to have you as a son in law, but we need to get your kingdom back first--priorities lad!" To word it in a very un-Elrond manner.

6: Defensible. Considering the darkness and evil around the area, it made sense to be elusive in where your cities and women and children are. This isn't quite like the modern day or classical Greece where you can just visit places as part of tourism, the roads were rampant with goblins and other monsters. People travelled out of necessity for the majority, with a few brave explorers going to see places just because they can (namely Bilbo, after he had help being pushed out the door).

7: That seems to be a thing with elves. This shows how important it is their cities remain defensible, mysterious and hidden from their enemies (they're surrounded by orcs and spiders). This got them in the habit of, if anyone does need to visit, you blindfold them and lead them through, so they can't report intentionally or accidentally about the tricks the elves use to keep their homes hidden. It should be noted that mid way through their blindfolded trip, word was sent to let them through unblinded. So, it was a matter of the elven soldiers following protocol, until their commanders let them know it was OK to make an exception in their case.


I agree that the elves weren't very sociable (they weren't inviting lots of people to their parties to increase their friends network), but they weren't unsociable. But not disdainful or arrogant as many seem to be associating with the elves.

Hawkstar
2015-10-15, 10:06 AM
But if the elves only think they're morally better, and the PCs get to smack them upside the head... :smallamused:
Screw You, Elves! (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ScrewYouElves) exists for reasons.I have orcs react to humans in the same way when the humans try to do anything about the orcs raiding, pillaging, raping, and butchering lifestyles!


DON'T make them underachievers compared with humans, with the "Humans have such short lives, it gives them an immense drive to achieve" excuse. Have you ever heard the phrase "Eat drink, and be merry, for tomorrow we may die?" Having a short life excuses lack of planning and investment. Having a long life to plan for makes it more important to plan ahead and set yourself up for the long haul.
"Tomorrow you may be dead" isn't about life expectancy, it's about uncertainty, and applies equally to Elves and Humans - An elf's natural longevity won't save them from a random orc raid, a falling tree, a terminal case of Saturday Night Fever, or any other sudden, random events. Likewise, a human won't die of old age unless they've already been around for at least two thirds of a century, if not more. Yes, Elves plan long-term (Which is often why they hate short-sighted humans who wage wars in the name of nations that won't even exist half a millenium from now, and completely transform ecosystems)... but a more applicable quote is "Never do today what you can put off for tomorrow"... and barring unforseeable catastrophic accident that renders lifespan irrelevant, Elves have a lot more Tomorrows to put things off until than humans do.

Mr. Mask
2015-10-15, 11:51 AM
If I could live for a thousand years, I'd be much less stressed and worried about getting my projects done sooner.

ThinkMinty
2015-10-15, 01:43 PM
If I could live for a thousand years, I'd be much less stressed and worried about getting my projects done sooner.

I'd be the other way, because there's so much more I could get done.

Prince Zahn
2015-10-15, 02:39 PM
Reading through the thread, it occurred to me how strange of a misconception it is that in a world with medieval technology and medicine, monsters, diseases, war, plagues (and spell plagues) and all that stuff, that members of any race should REALLY have the luxury live for hundreds of years, let alone thousands (though exceptions exist, yeah?). If your world is as dangerous as you likely want it to be, then elves would rarely live past 120/150 (I think? That should be enough of a lifespan to prove a point, right?)

I think the biggest DO that I can think of is to take those traits that make an elf and tone them down.

When I play high elves, I always imagine the best way to do it relatively simple - be a gentleman* within your alignment: be polite, perhaps a little snobbish if you are accustomed to higher class living. Start Caring about personal hygiene and being dressed for the occasion whereas your fellow adventurers would settle for "full-plate casual". Be more concerned about eating fruit and vegetables and things things that are healthy while everyone stuffs their face with mutton and trail rations. Why do elves really live as long as they do? The elves keep it a close guarded secret ingrained in their every day life - but it sums down to them eat better, they meditate, they wash their hands before and after dinner, even their wizards make efforts to get out of the house or clean up their dusty old tower every now and then.

Gray elves, to me, are like high elves, but a little more egotistical and/or neurotic; more notorious for having ulterior motives (whether the stigma is true or not is another matter). I take a gray elf over a high elf in any game with a conspiracy involved.

Wood elves might also need toning down in all directions: when I play with them, they are also known for their longer lives, but certainly not 700 years of it. When I play them, they mix good living with a salt of the earth attitude - of course they would prefer to be with their own kind, share inside jokes that only their own culture could understand. They can be a bit chummy, perhaps with a side of rudeness to those who aren't used to it. They enjoy the pleasures of outside, like running/hiking, hunting for game, swimming, cooking nutritious and hearty suppers by the campfire, dancing in the rain, watching the sunrise... They have stronger immune systems in their blood, they eat right, they are well fit and they know how to fight for what's theirs.

I wish I had a standpoint on dark elves, but Drow are usually abscent in my games, giving me little to no opinion on the matter.

*as interpreted from a gender neutral standpoint

The biggest DON'T I would offer when handling elves is not so much being perfect, but rather the more catch-all "don't overdo it". Elves and their longer lives have a set of problems that humans and dwarves remain completely oblivious to. The elves just keep it to themselves and sweep it under the rug, because they don't want to display genuine flaws. That doesn't make them perfect, they just naturally try harder to keep up appearances, or because they are too proud to admit that they have troubles and vices. Most people know how to suppress emotions, have an idea of what decency is like(even if they don't abide by it) knows that vegetables exist and are good for you (whether you like eating them or not) so none of this is overkill for someone who wants to play an elf that isn't mary-sue Hateable. Just remember that these race details are to be built upon when making characters.

As someone else here mentioned, it could be that the elves themselves don't like the stereotypes revolving them either. It makes sense that they would not accept a holier-than-thou snob who thinks he is Corellon Larethian's chosen one either. Though they would much rather voice such contempt behind the person's back than to's face.

Cluedrew
2015-10-15, 03:42 PM
DO: Consider alternate types of elves. Not just the stock standard "this is how people inspired by Tolken do it" variety. And even if they stereotypical elves in your world are like that, where does the stereotype come from? The diplomats? Then what does a elven farmer look like?

DON'T: Play an elf that is just an upper class human noble with pointy ears. Which is (character wise) what most elves boil down do.

Keltest
2015-10-15, 04:47 PM
From the facts that:
1. Rivendell was nearly impossible to find without a wizard to guide you,
2. The elves turned out their lights and fled when hungry dwarves entered the clearing with their fest,
3. The dwarves were then captured and held prisoner on no charges,
4. Gildor's elves had a feast hall in the Shire that they didn't open up to hobbits generally,
5. Elrond didn't think a kuman could be good enough for his daughter unless he became king first,
6. Lothlorien was extremely hard to find, deep in a forest,
7. A party who was supposed to be helping the elves was only allowed in while blindfolded.

"Disdain" and "rudeness" may be an overstatement for what could just be reclusiveness, but it's not a completely unreasonable conclusion.

Don't confuse the wood elves for the high elves. There is a difference. The wood elves of Mirkwood and Lorien were decidedly less cultured and merry than their high elven cousins. Mirkwood was under near constant harassment by the Necromancer, and Lorien was fairly isolated, so its no surprise that they weren't especially welcoming to strangers.

Mr. Mask
2015-10-15, 04:57 PM
Cluedrew: A well played upper class noble would be fine, I'd say. There are notable differences, of course. Nobility are sometimes aggressive and military, whereas elves don't seem to like war that much.



Prince Zahn: Well, that's somewhat region-dependant, but the longer you live the more likely your region will get hit by a death rate spike, yeah. Something to note that while the average life expectancy in early times was low, there were still plenty of people who lived to old age (if you live past something like 20, your chances of reaching 60 spike dramatically). Elves who stay at home and work as accountants likely live longer than elven sergeants and scouts.

Drow are probably competitive, cynical, catty, and capricious--compared to other elves. In many ways, their culture probably mirrors elves, but sometimes in reverse.



Keltest: Of course, even the wood elves aren't really inconsiderate fellows. In the battle of five armies, when the dwarves were moving up, the men of Dale wanted to fire arrows at them. But the elven king objected, saying they should continue to sue for peace, in hopes death could be avoided.

Cikomyr
2015-10-15, 05:14 PM
In a Marienburg game i GMed in the Old World of Warhammer, i had the Elves turn into the fascist imperialist/oppressors.

But the point of the story was that Marienburg's Sea Elves were slowly infiltrated and corrupted by the Dark Elves who wanted to turn Marienburg into a Shrine to Khaine. Their assholishness was a plot point, and most elves were not quintessential *******s. Most of them just felt a bit powerless to stop the radicalisation of their local government, or were merely entrapped by the fascist rhetoric that displayed the humans as dangerous barbarians.

Basically, ultimately, it made them unwilling villains who turned into victims.

Keltest
2015-10-15, 05:16 PM
Keltest: Of course, even the wood elves aren't really inconsiderate fellows. In the battle of five armies, when the dwarves were moving up, the men of Dale wanted to fire arrows at them. But the elven king objected, saying they should continue to sue for peace, in hopes death could be avoided.

Indeed. They aren't jerks or all that malicious, but they cant really afford to just let whoever wander into their feasts and forests.

VoxRationis
2015-10-15, 05:20 PM
"Tomorrow you may be dead" isn't about life expectancy, it's about uncertainty, and applies equally to Elves and Humans - An elf's natural longevity won't save them from a random orc raid, a falling tree, a terminal case of Saturday Night Fever, or any other sudden, random events. Likewise, a human won't die of old age unless they've already been around for at least two thirds of a century, if not more. Yes, Elves plan long-term (Which is often why they hate short-sighted humans who wage wars in the name of nations that won't even exist half a millenium from now, and completely transform ecosystems)... but a more applicable quote is "Never do today what you can put off for tomorrow"... and barring unforseeable catastrophic accident that renders lifespan irrelevant, Elves have a lot more Tomorrows to put things off until than humans do.

Why does the salaryman continue working at a job he despises for years on end? Because he knows he has a long life ahead of him which will be easier if he has more money in it. Why do I work, why did I go to college? Because I know that I'm probably going to be around for a while, given that I don't have the courage to kill myself at 35 after living a libertine and frivolous life, which would probably be more enjoyable. If my natural lifespan were shorter, I probably wouldn't have given a damn in school.
The same logic applies to elves, but even more so.

Blackhawk748
2015-10-15, 05:48 PM
Nearly all these descriptions of elves are horrible....

Stop thinking about what not to do, and what to do. Tolkien's elves were merry, they liked to sing and tell tales and throw great feasts, and were happy to let others join in. I'm not sure where the idea of elves disdaining and being rude to other races comes from, as they didn't have such altercations in the main inspiration for the "modern" elf. If an elf was rude to a dwarven or human guest, or companion, the other elves would likely be embarrassed.

So if someone plays an arrogant elf that disdains others in their words and deeds, have other elves want nothing to do with them, but be too polite to cajole them for it (they might hint).

Probably Warhammer fantasy, those High Elves are insufferably arrogant. Also while in LOTR they may not be arrogant upon inspection, they really do come off as arrogant a lot.

Jay R
2015-10-15, 07:44 PM
Don't confuse the wood elves for the high elves. There is a difference. The wood elves of Mirkwood and Lorien were decidedly less cultured and merry than their high elven cousins. Mirkwood was under near constant harassment by the Necromancer, and Lorien was fairly isolated, so its no surprise that they weren't especially welcoming to strangers.

Perhaps. Nonetheless, with thousands of years of active life, if they were any good at making friends, there would be a lot more elf-children.

Keltest
2015-10-15, 08:23 PM
Perhaps. Nonetheless, with thousands of years of active life, if they were any good at making friends, there would be a lot more elf-children.

Why? Elves are functionally immortal. They probably don't want to just keep having kids willy nilly, because they would run out of space in Rivendell.

genderlich
2015-10-15, 08:38 PM
My issue with elves when building a character is that I just can't get into the head of a 110 year old person who by all rights should have more life experience than any human but is arbitrarily 1st level. Long-lived races do. Not. Make. Sense. From any perspective I've tried. Stuff that would be ancient history to us would be within the memory of even relatively young elves. If they just hit level 1, what have they been doing that whole century? If they age physically at a slower rate, how does that affrct education? A 70 year old elf has had enough time to learn literally a lifetime of information and wisdom, with all the energy of a teenager. What does that look like psychologically, culturally, with their interactions with other races? Why isn't every elf adolescent an epic level archmage or a fighter beyond the capabilities of any human? I can't wrap my head around it, and I think this is really where the "elves are better than you" trope comes from.

VoxRationis
2015-10-15, 08:39 PM
Perhaps. Nonetheless, with thousands of years of active life, if they were any good at making friends, there would be a lot more elf-children.

Actually, I came up with a setting that explored the demographic effects of having immortal elves. The end result was that all the elven cultures either had severe restrictions on reproduction or (more commonly) a propensity towards violence, from honor-duels to arranged endemic warfare to a violent gang culture. In that setting, most elves in history have died at the hands of other elves.

Mr. Mask
2015-10-15, 08:42 PM
If you're playing a first level elf, just make them 20 or something. Of course, levels in DnD are kind of arbitrary. Spending 100 years as an accountant doesn't necessarily get you a lot of XP. Though, getting more levels in Expert(Accounting) would, for some reason, increase your combat ability. DnD's mechanics are a harder pill to swallow than playing an elf, largely.

Reflecting on what people used to do in the past is something not brought up enough with characters like elves, I think. "Oh, I remember when you first started hanging reeds on fences."
"Yeah, about that... why did we start doing that?"
"Darned if I know."

goto124
2015-10-15, 08:42 PM
Master Pavo: Elves have horrible memories :smallbiggrin:

LudicSavant
2015-10-15, 10:58 PM
My issue with elves when building a character is that I just can't get into the head of a 110 year old person who by all rights should have more life experience than any human but is arbitrarily 1st level. Long-lived races do. Not. Make. Sense. From any perspective I've tried. Stuff that would be ancient history to us would be within the memory of even relatively young elves. If they just hit level 1, what have they been doing that whole century? If they age physically at a slower rate, how does that affrct education? A 70 year old elf has had enough time to learn literally a lifetime of information and wisdom, with all the energy of a teenager. What does that look like psychologically, culturally, with their interactions with other races? Why isn't every elf adolescent an epic level archmage or a fighter beyond the capabilities of any human? I can't wrap my head around it, and I think this is really where the "elves are better than you" trope comes from.

In Eberron, elves were described as having multiple PC levels for the average warrior. The average Valenar was described as being around level 5, basically making them the setting's Spartans.

Blackhawk748
2015-10-16, 05:53 AM
My issue with elves when building a character is that I just can't get into the head of a 110 year old person who by all rights should have more life experience than any human but is arbitrarily 1st level. Long-lived races do. Not. Make. Sense. From any perspective I've tried. Stuff that would be ancient history to us would be within the memory of even relatively young elves. If they just hit level 1, what have they been doing that whole century? If they age physically at a slower rate, how does that affrct education? A 70 year old elf has had enough time to learn literally a lifetime of information and wisdom, with all the energy of a teenager. What does that look like psychologically, culturally, with their interactions with other races? Why isn't every elf adolescent an epic level archmage or a fighter beyond the capabilities of any human? I can't wrap my head around it, and I think this is really where the "elves are better than you" trope comes from.

Races of the Wild goes into this, the explination is that Elves have basically been acting like a college student who cant pick a major, they have been dong a bit of everything for like a hundred years. ALso do note that 120 years is when elven society thinks your good to go, i think for Drow its like 40, Elves are physically mature around like 35-45.

Roxxy
2015-10-16, 11:13 AM
Perhaps. Nonetheless, with thousands of years of active life, if they were any good at making friends, there would be a lot more elf-children.Not necessarily. What we know of modern demographic research largely says that lower death rates also mean lower birth rates. Elves, being immortal, could be expected to have a very low birthrate indeed. If you only need two or three children to continue your lineage, but you live thousands of years, the period in which you actually had minor children would be infintesimally small.

ThinkMinty
2015-10-16, 11:50 AM
Why? Elves are functionally immortal. They probably don't want to just keep having kids willy nilly, because they would run out of space in Rivendell.

I imagine the long-lived sort of elf engages in some amount of saddlebacking or outercourse to avoid having lots of children.

VoxRationis
2015-10-16, 12:03 PM
Races of the Wild goes into this, the explination is that Elves have basically been acting like a college student who cant pick a major, they have been dong a bit of everything for like a hundred years.

That's the common excuse, but I find it difficult to swallow, particularly given that elves in game mechanics (at least for D&D; maybe they are in some other system) aren't really given the variety of skills, at even a basic, "did it for a few years" kind of level, that a background of "tried everything at least once" would imply.

JCAll
2015-10-16, 02:37 PM
Races of the Wild goes into this, the explination is that Elves have basically been acting like a college student who cant pick a major, they have been dong a bit of everything for like a hundred years.

So elves spend a hundred straight years on nothing but sex, booze, and toga parties? No wonder everyone hates them.

Piedmon_Sama
2015-10-16, 02:50 PM
DO: Remind everyone that you've had sex so very many more times than them; like totally a lot. You know all the positions. You could show off but why bother, you basically did all the sex there was to do before the other party members were born.

DON'T: Let people forget that you were raised on Elven wines of the most complex and deep bouquets and this ale that they think is really good? It's swill, sweat off a dwarf's back swill.

Blackhawk748
2015-10-16, 03:25 PM
So elves spend a hundred straight years on nothing but sex, booze, and toga parties? No wonder everyone hates them.

Yes.

http://cdn1.theodysseyonline.com/files/2014/10/08/635483300624005953-1914878764_tumblr_inline_n44kvdA0iG1s0u9u5.gif


DO: Remind everyone that you've had sex so very many more times than them; like totally a lot. You know all the positions. You could show off but why bother, you basically did all the sex there was to do before the other party members were born.

DON'T: Let people forget that you were raised on Elven wines of the most complex and deep bouquets and this ale that they think is really good? It's swill, sweat off a dwarf's back swill.

And now im going to go make a Grey Elf Swashbuckler, ill be right back....

Funny story that the second part reminded me of. I once played a Wood Elf who absolutely hated High Elves (he was actually born one but he buggered out of there at like 20, was raised by Wood Elves after), and the party has to go to this High Elf diplomats dinner. The party consists of a Human Cleric, a Gnome Bard, a Dwarven Fighter and my Wood Elf Ranger. So we get to this dinner and they are serving these tiny little sandwiches, so me and the dwarf just take the whole freakin serving tray and just go to town at a side table. Now the drink of the night was this like stupidly old elvish wine. Well me and the dwarf drank it, and promptly hated it. Thankfully I had stashed a few hip flasks of Hobgoblin Whiskey, so we proceeded to get wasted on that. Our host was not amused.

At this point the Dwarf then went in to a long speech about how terrible the wine tasted, i believe he said that it tasted like "the boot of a fungus ridden troll that has been regurgitated by a Dragon". Turns out that its supposed to taste like that and High Elves just have really weird acquired tastes.

Piedmon_Sama
2015-10-16, 03:50 PM
Speaking of drinks here's a great trick: allot about 50gp a month to be spent on the fanciest champagne (or if your DM wants to be a smartass, any good chardonnay) you can find, then every morning while the wizard and cleric are preparing their spells, be sure to mention you soak some into a cloth and use it to polish your boots, scabbard and other leather accouterments for a truly high sheen and a faintly bubbly scent cloying to your breeches. Remember that this is the highest possible compliment you can pay a human vigneur and you should proudly tell anyone who's interested what a fine gloss his vintage added to your boots, for a human wine, absolutely extraordinary.

Blackhawk748
2015-10-16, 04:18 PM
Speaking of drinks here's a great trick: allot about 50gp a month to be spent on the fanciest champagne (or if your DM wants to be a smartass, any good chardonnay) you can find, then every morning while the wizard and cleric are preparing their spells, be sure to mention you soak some into a cloth and use it to polish your boots, scabbard and other leather accouterments for a truly high sheen and a faintly bubbly scent cloying to your breeches. Remember that this is the highest possible compliment you can pay a human vigneur and you should proudly tell anyone who's interested what a fine gloss his vintage added to your boots, for a human wine, absolutely extraordinary.

This, right here, is why i play High Elf hating Wood Elves. Also that is just brilliant.

Hawkstar
2015-10-16, 04:24 PM
That's the common excuse, but I find it difficult to swallow, particularly given that elves in game mechanics (at least for D&D; maybe they are in some other system) aren't really given the variety of skills, at even a basic, "did it for a few years" kind of level, that a background of "tried everything at least once" would imply.

They made a weak feat to try to represent this... but 3rd Edition is just plain awful at handling skills.

Piedmon_Sama
2015-10-16, 04:29 PM
Here's how you do it: "Oh, blank? Yes, I gave a few years to blank some hundred Summers ago. Refreshing challenge, stimulated the nerves. But once you've blanked with the best, it wears a bit... haven't glanced at blankery in a man's age now; would love to show you but, the old skills wouldn't answer I'm afraid."

Blackhawk748
2015-10-16, 04:30 PM
They made a weak feat to try to represent this... but 3rd Edition is just plain awful at handling skills.

Hey dont poo poo Jack of All Trades, its extremely useful in certain situations, mostly on Bards. In general, yeah its kinda meh, though being able to roll any skill check is pretty nice


Here's how you do it: "Oh, blank? Yes, I gave a few years to blank some hundred Summers ago. Refreshing challenge, stimulated the nerves. But once you've blanked with the best, it wears a bit... haven't glanced at blankery in a man's age now; would love to show you but, the old skills wouldn't answer I'm afraid."

My reaction to That Elf: "Sir, that comment is a Pistol Whippable offense"

http://33.media.tumblr.com/2788c94f5e4392fe8ba7aeeaa3f63f9f/tumblr_n7sz5lTajs1toqhwfo1_500.gif

VoxRationis
2015-10-16, 04:41 PM
Speaking of drinks here's a great trick: allot about 50gp a month to be spent on the fanciest champagne (or if your DM wants to be a smartass, any good chardonnay) you can find, then every morning while the wizard and cleric are preparing their spells, be sure to mention you soak some into a cloth and use it to polish your boots, scabbard and other leather accouterments for a truly high sheen and a faintly bubbly scent cloying to your breeches. Remember that this is the highest possible compliment you can pay a human vigneur and you should proudly tell anyone who's interested what a fine gloss his vintage added to your boots, for a human wine, absolutely extraordinary.

Speaking of elven hygiene and sanitation standards...
I'm currently playing a grey elf mage whose background is that he's a noble scion exiled after a failed court intrigue. Figuring that he was raised in a pretty well-put-together environment (since wizards are indoorsy types and elves aren't known for liking squalor), I made him into a bit of a neat freak. He uses prestidigitation liberally to clean everything (when We All Met In A Tavern, he was cleaning that too) and once charged an opponent rather than backtrack through a mud-filled room.

Piedmon_Sama
2015-10-16, 04:49 PM
DO: Remember the proper response to threats is an indulgent "of course you could."


Alternatively, just duckface.

https://i.imgur.com/b1xpJcB.gif

Anonymouswizard
2015-10-16, 05:30 PM
So elves spend a hundred straight years on nothing but sex, booze, and toga parties? No wonder everyone hates them.

Considering elves are definitely fertile by their twenties (when they are physically nature), and probably in their teens, elves would quickly outgrow human populations.

I'm now imagining an elven kid getting a reusable deer intestine condom for their twentieth birthday. :smalleek:

Blackhawk748
2015-10-16, 05:35 PM
DO: Remember the proper response to threats is an indulgent "of course you could."


Alternatively, just duckface.

https://i.imgur.com/b1xpJcB.gif

And that is why i take one level of Barbarian.

JCAll
2015-10-16, 06:02 PM
Considering elves are definitely fertile by their twenties (when they are physically nature), and probably in their teens, elves would quickly outgrow human populations.

I'm now imagining an elven kid getting a reusable deer intestine condom for their twentieth birthday. :smalleek:

I'm sure Elven schools keep an item crafter on staff just to keep up with the supply of condoms they need.
Embarrassing Rubber Sheath: Amuse your friends, impress your lovers. Guaranteed Protection from Disease, Pregnancy, and Evil.

Anonymouswizard
2015-10-16, 06:22 PM
I'm sure Elven schools keep an item crafter on staff just to keep up with the supply of condoms they need.
Embarrassing Rubber Sheath: Amuse your friends, impress your lovers. Guaranteed Protection from Disease, Pregnancy, and Evil.

Only 98% effective against evil. If evil results please contact your Cleric for information raising it.

Jay R
2015-10-17, 03:02 PM
DON'T make them underachievers compared with humans, with the "Humans have such short lives, it gives them an immense drive to achieve" excuse.

I prefer to believe that they measure achievements differently. If the elves spend 1,000 years slowly shaping a forest so that they can live within it peacefully, and without harming the forest creatures, while humans spent the same time block-clearing a forest, building an empire, and fighting long wars that destroy it and require re-building afterwards, then the humans may think that the elves are under-achieving, but the elves are sure the humans are anti-achieving.


DO be aware of the downsides of the "elven way of life." Not ever mining or clearing trees has serious impacts on a society's productive capacity. If the elves have a 10,000-strong army clad in shining armor and armed with swords, they either do mine and clear trees, and you just don't see them do it, or they have a fantastic long-term storage facility to keep all those arms in serviceable condition for hundreds upon hundreds of years.

A. This only shows that they mine. Mining coal and iron will allow the creation of armor and swords without hurting the trees.

B. There is also trade. If an underground race mines, but needs food, or magical artifacts, then the elves can arrange to get all the iron and coal they need without mining.

napoleon_in_rag
2015-10-17, 04:42 PM
A. This only shows that they mine. Mining coal and iron will allow the creation of armor and swords without hurting the trees.


To mine, you need tools, supports, carts for transportation, etc all of which are at least partially made of wood.

Medieval armor was not just made it of steel, there were leather straps, cloth cushioning, etc. Making hide into leather requires wood, to weave cloth you need a loom made out of wood. Medieval production of anything required loads of wood and not just for burning.

The signature elvish weapon is the longbow. To make a longbow you have to use the heartwood of certain trees. You can't just lop of a branch to make a longbow. It wouldn't be strong enough.

Keltest
2015-10-17, 04:46 PM
To mine, you need tools, supports, carts for transportation, etc all of which are at least partially made of wood.

Medieval armor was not just made it of steel, there were leather straps, cloth cushioning, etc. Making hide into leather requires wood, to weave cloth you need a loom made out of wood. Medieval production of anything required loads of wood and not just for burning.

The signature elvish weapon is the longbow. To make a longbow you have to use the heartwood of certain trees. You can't just lop of a branch to make a longbow. It wouldn't be strong enough.

Given a comparatively small population and rate of growth, the elves could get by with significantly less wood consumption than a human culture could, especially if they use magic. For example, they cut down a tree then use magic to grow a new tree there at an accelerated rate. And they take dead trees and use them instead of letting them decay naturally so that fresh trees can take their place.

I wont deny that there would still be moderate consumption of wood, but as a culture, most fantasy elves are significantly better equipped to make its acquisition ultra efficient and minimally invasive to the environment than humans are.

VoxRationis
2015-10-17, 04:51 PM
A. This only shows that they mine. Mining coal and iron will allow the creation of armor and swords without hurting the trees.

B. There is also trade. If an underground race mines, but needs food, or magical artifacts, then the elves can arrange to get all the iron and coal they need without mining.

If you give your elves a significantly-beyond-medieval tech level or societal structure, then yes, there are ways for them to produce their weapons without significant use of forest-clearing. Trade also helps, but seems a bit hypocritical (if your elves are the sort that call people out on ecologically unsound practices). Elven lands are unlikely to produce significant surplus food compared with an agricultural society, but they could trade finished goods, particularly luxury items.

Grinner
2015-10-17, 05:01 PM
I don't think this question can be resolved with the assumptions I see being made.

Different people seem to have different ideas of what constitutes elf-hood, and these ideas are contrasting. It's not quite an apples-and-oranges comparison that's being made. It's more like we're debating the merits and demerits of apples, but half are talking about Pink Ladies and other half talking about Granny Smiths. Consequently, the whole discussion becomes muddled and pointless.

Interesting ideas, though.

For my part, I might recommend ruthless elves. Instead of falling in line with some arbitrary subset of Western morals, I'd have them take a different approach. Perhaps they're cannibals, believing in a credo summarized as "Meat is meat". Or perhaps, as I read on a blog somewhere, they neuter trespassers and prisoners of war. Instead of nature-loving pacifist hippies, they're nature-loving ruthless xenophobes. They're noble savages, in a sense. They retain all their elegance, but they send a message.

I don't really have any ideas on more urbane depictions of elves.

napoleon_in_rag
2015-10-17, 05:54 PM
Given a comparatively small population and rate of growth, the elves could get by with significantly less wood consumption than a human culture could, especially if they use magic. For example, they cut down a tree then use magic to grow a new tree there at an accelerated rate. And they take dead trees and use them instead of letting them decay naturally so that fresh trees can take their place.


Of course with magic, anything is possible. They could create a magic ceramic that is harder than steel. Or make a laminate like fiberglass out of giant spider webs and the sap of a magical tree as resin. Elves that mine but don't use trees seems a little hypocritical to me.

I seem to remember one fantasy novel where the elves sang to trees to make them grow into shape they needed. They could cause a sapling to grow into a longbow so that every elves bow was a living piece of wood which was replanted after a while.

But a elvish society like this would be very different than your typical one. Closer to ents really. Probably would view humans, Dwarves, gnomes, and halflings as being little better than orcs. Which is why they would be disliked.

Blackhawk748
2015-10-17, 07:48 PM
Of course with magic, anything is possible. They could create a magic ceramic that is harder than steel. Or make a laminate like fiberglass out of giant spider webs and the sap of a magical tree as resin. Elves that mine but don't use trees seems a little hypocritical to me.

I seem to remember one fantasy novel where the elves sang to trees to make them grow into shape they needed. They could cause a sapling to grow into a longbow so that every elves bow was a living piece of wood which was replanted after a while.

But a elvish society like this would be very different than your typical one. Closer to ents really. Probably would view humans, Dwarves, gnomes, and halflings as being little better than orcs. Which is why they would be disliked.

That was the Inheritance Cycle, more commonly called the Eragon books.

napoleon_in_rag
2015-10-17, 08:04 PM
That was the Inheritance Cycle, more commonly called the Eragon books.

No, I never read those. It was something I read back in the 80s. That was the one nice concept in the book. The rest was not the original.

Jay R
2015-10-17, 10:25 PM
To mine, you need tools, supports, carts for transportation, etc all of which are at least partially made of wood.

Medieval armor was not just made it of steel, there were leather straps, cloth cushioning, etc. Making hide into leather requires wood, to weave cloth you need a loom made out of wood. Medieval production of anything required loads of wood and not just for burning.

The signature elvish weapon is the longbow. To make a longbow you have to use the heartwood of certain trees. You can't just lop of a branch to make a longbow. It wouldn't be strong enough.

Agreed. I've been making things of wood and building fires from 40 acres of east Texas woods bought in 1964. It's still 100% woods.

I didn't say that they don't use wood, any more than a human farmer doesn't use wheat. I was arguing against the nonsense that they "clear trees". They cultivate forests as human farmers cultivate wheat fields. It takes many more years to grow trees, but they have many more years.


If you give your elves a significantly-beyond-medieval tech level ...

I do, of course. It's called "magic".

Blackhawk748
2015-10-18, 12:09 AM
No, I never read those. It was something I read back in the 80s. That was the one nice concept in the book. The rest was not the original.

Well ive got no idea what that is then, thats where i saw it.

Hawkstar
2015-10-18, 10:34 AM
Well ive got no idea what that is then, thats where i saw it.

Everything in the Inheritance cycle came from somewhere else first.

napoleon_in_rag
2015-10-18, 10:38 AM
Well ive got no idea what that is then, thats where i saw it.

I think it was the Ogier treesong in Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time series. I read the first few books in the 90s.

napoleon_in_rag
2015-10-18, 10:48 AM
I think it was the Ogier treesong in Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time series. I read the first few books in the 90s.

Of course Robert Jordan probably got it from somewhere else.

Anonymouswizard
2015-10-18, 11:11 AM
Everything in the Inheritance cycle came from somewhere else first.

Ah, except the idea of making a story entirely out of borrowed ideas. Out of interest, can anybody tell me what novel did this before Paloni? Thanks.

Although to be fair, as someone who has had very few new ideas in his life (I plan to write a book where the big magic system is telekinesis for NaNoWriMo), the Inheritance Cycle just seemed standard. Even the bits I hadn't encountered before were boring, and I just grew to hate the elves so much (and I never finished the final book).

Hawkstar
2015-10-18, 11:47 AM
Out of interest, can anybody tell me what novel did this before Paloni? Thanks.

Eh... I've lost count. They aren't memorable. What made Eragon stand out was that it was written by a teenager, yet professionally published.

napoleon_in_rag
2015-10-18, 11:50 AM
Ah, except the idea of making a story entirely out of borrowed ideas. Out of interest, can anybody tell me what novel did this before Paloni? Thanks.

Although to be fair, as someone who has had very few new ideas in his life (I plan to write a book where the big magic system is telekinesis for NaNoWriMo), the Inheritance Cycle just seemed standard. Even the bits I hadn't encountered before were boring, and I just grew to hate the elves so much (and I never finished the final book).

Well, Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time predates the Inheritance Cycle by at least a decade. Though the treesong thing isn't all that important in it. And I am sure it is not an original idea of Jordan's.

I feel the same about Wheel of Time that you do about Eragon. It started out alright but became more boring with each subsequent novel The books became longer and longer but less seemed to happen in each one. The last book I read (can't remember which one) was like 750 pages long and nothing happened more than them travelling from point A to B. And there are about 10 books after that one.

I wouldn't recommend the series to anyone. I am sure I will get some hate for that, though.

Anonymouswizard
2015-10-18, 12:22 PM
Well, Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time predates the Inheritance Cycle by at least a decade. Though the treesong thing isn't all that important in it. And I am sure it is not an original idea of Jordan's.

I meant making the entire story out of other people's ideas.


I feel the same about Wheel of Time that you do about Eragon. It started out alright but became more boring with each subsequent novel The books became longer and longer but less seemed to happen in each one. The last book I read (can't remember which one) was like 750 pages long and nothing happened more than them travelling from point A to B. And there are about 10 books after that one.

I wouldn't recommend the series to anyone. I am sure I will get some hate for that, though.

Yeah I tried reaching it. I gave up before finishing book 1 chapter 3 because Jordan obviously hadn't decided if his characters were 10ish, or 16ish.

napoleon_in_rag
2015-10-18, 02:02 PM
I meant making the entire story out of other people's ideas.


Like every author ever? I mean there are versions of Romeo and Juliet written 50 years before Shakespeare wrote his.

Cluedrew
2015-10-18, 07:40 PM
There are no original ideas, but you can put them together in new ways.

And this includes most of the interpretations of elves we have been discussing.

Kami2awa
2015-10-19, 07:00 AM
Part of the problem with elves is the Tolkien-esq fantasy of elves is "people who are better." More magical, more in tune with nature, more moral, more wise, more beautiful, more powerful, immirtal, etc.

I'd recommend a look at the Silmarillion, which is more or less the history of how Elven recklessness broke the world (though to be fair, Melkor had a big hand in it). Tolkien's elves got more wise and moral through a LOT of bitter experience.

I like the idea, however, that while not every human has a PC class, every elf probably does (or has an equivalent). A human PC is an exceptional human, an elf PC is an average elf, and equal to the exceptional human PC. Still no excuse for being a **** about it, however - that's not the wise thing to do!

Hawkstar
2015-10-19, 02:24 PM
I like to make elves "Uninhibited", and move away from anthrocentric depictions. They are wardens of the world. They don't age. They don't sleep (Really), they eat not out of a need for sustenence, but to regulate animal and plant populations. Predators do not attack them. No natural disease will afflict them. Weather doesn't hinder them. They are comfortable at all temperatures. They're strongly affiliated with the Moon... and like the Moon, they protect the world, but are utterly foreign to it. They are impartial wardens of nature, yet completely divorced from its laws to avoid being corrupted.

To elves, humans are just another animal - we eat, ****, sleep, die of old age, are governed by primal urges, etc. They're still aligned with Cosmic Good, despite seemingly sociopaths - Good cares about respect for all life, not just sapient life.

ThinkMinty
2015-10-19, 05:49 PM
Like every author ever? I mean there are versions of Romeo and Juliet written 50 years before Shakespeare wrote his.

Pyramus and Thisbe, if we're trying to win in terms of how far back that one goes.

Honest Tiefling
2015-10-20, 12:44 PM
I think the biggest do of this thread is either have an original idea for elves, or breathe new life into an old concept. But pick one type of elf (or combine two if you think you can), but don't go overboard as there are many, many, many types of elves.

And once you have an idea of what you want your elves to do, stick with it and flesh it out. Morally superior? Don't have them have assassin groups dedicated to the eradication of other races without a single good action to their name. Love the forest? Explain their metal work better (and don't give me that only harvesting dead wood business). Inhuman? Make it clear they don't think like us.

I think one of the biggest problems with elves is that in a game with improv and the audience never having the full story, it is hard for things to come across as one intends. I would not be terribly surprised if the nature of many a campaign setting, in that they have multiple authors, causes a fair bit of problems with trying to portray them so they seem a certain way.

Keltest
2015-10-20, 01:11 PM
I think the biggest do of this thread is either have an original idea for elves, or breathe new life into an old concept. But pick one type of elf (or combine two if you think you can), but don't go overboard as there are many, many, many types of elves.

And once you have an idea of what you want your elves to do, stick with it and flesh it out. Morally superior? Don't have them have assassin groups dedicated to the eradication of other races without a single good action to their name. Love the forest? Explain their metal work better (and don't give me that only harvesting dead wood business). Inhuman? Make it clear they don't think like us.

I think one of the biggest problems with elves is that in a game with improv and the audience never having the full story, it is hard for things to come across as one intends. I would not be terribly surprised if the nature of many a campaign setting, in that they have multiple authors, causes a fair bit of problems with trying to portray them so they seem a certain way.

The biggest problem I have with that is when there are clearly, explicitly multiple types of elves with different cultures, features, and characteristics in a setting, and then an author just goes and calls a character an "elf." Not a High Elf, Wood elf, Grey Elf, Moon Elf, or whatever, just an elf. Even if the PoV character doesn't know the difference at first, the elf should know and be able to inform them.

Honest Tiefling
2015-10-20, 01:18 PM
The biggest problem I have with that is when there are clearly, explicitly multiple types of elves with different cultures, features, and characteristics in a setting, and then an author just goes and calls a character an "elf." Not a High Elf, Wood elf, Grey Elf, Moon Elf, or whatever, just an elf. Even if the PoV character doesn't know the difference at first, the elf should know and be able to inform them.

I think many people would argue that unless you have clearly defined reasons for the cultural/racial changes, you should just probably stick to only a couple types of elves. Eight different types for instance, might be a little too much.

But yes, the character's actions, appearance, and beliefs should all show what sort of elf it is, even if there is only one species of elf.

Anonymouswizard
2015-10-20, 01:18 PM
The biggest problem I have with that is when there are clearly, explicitly multiple types of elves with different cultures, features, and characteristics in a setting, and then an author just goes and calls a character an "elf." Not a High Elf, Wood elf, Grey Elf, Moon Elf, or whatever, just an elf. Even if the PoV character doesn't know the difference at first, the elf should know and be able to inform them.

To be honest, the different 'types' of elf should be treated in the same way as different nations of humans. You may or may not be able to tell someone is from a specific culture at first glance, but you can work it out over time from how they behave and dress, or ask them about it, and some people would be very good at recognising the differences.

I also think games like D&D should just settle on a set of stats for elves and then let the other 'types' of elves just vary in culture. Maybe give them a 'cultural weapons' feature so the wood elves gain bonuses with bows and daggers, high elves with arming swords and spears, sea elves with spears and javelins, and drow with daggers and hand crossbows. The only other real option is to give humans different stat bonuses for different nationalities, which is fun when it's done (it's my favourite thing about the Midnight setting, followed by character themes) but not something you can really do in the corebook for a 'generic fantasy' game.

VoxRationis
2015-10-20, 01:29 PM
I also think games like D&D should just settle on a set of stats for elves and then let the other 'types' of elves just vary in culture.

I know, right? The concept of nonhuman races having different cultural groups without being biologically distinct seems completely impossible to the people at TSR/WotC, it would seem. 5th really made it bad, since they included multiple subraces for each race in the PHB; in 3.5, I could just keep all the elves and dwarves to the PHB stats and say that the 'wood elves' were just a different culture, regardless of what the MM might say, since the players weren't supposed to be using it anyway.

Keltest
2015-10-20, 01:36 PM
I know, right? The concept of nonhuman races having different cultural groups without being biologically distinct seems completely impossible to the people at TSR/WotC, it would seem. 5th really made it bad, since they included multiple subraces for each race in the PHB; in 3.5, I could just keep all the elves and dwarves to the PHB stats and say that the 'wood elves' were just a different culture, regardless of what the MM might say, since the players weren't supposed to be using it anyway.

I mean, I don't mind, say, High elves getting a free cantrip to represent their magical society and culture, while wood elves get some extra weapon proficiencies. Heck, you could even put forward an argument for minor stat boosts. But unless its Drow versus Surface Elf level of difference, I agree, they should probably just have "elf" race like they used to.

Regitnui
2015-10-20, 03:06 PM
Getting back to the 'respect the forest' discussion, I always like the Bosmer (Elder Scrolls wood elf) society's version; they do not harm any living plant in their home of Valenwood. They can use wood from other parts of the world cut down by others, but they will not harm plants on their own. Instead, they're strict carnivores, eating everything up to and including any of the other sentient beings in Tamriel. They may even practice cannibalism and eat their own kind, under certain circumstances. Makes a certain quest in Skyrim hilarious when a cannibal tries to 'seduce' you into joining the cult by implying cannibalism is an urge you've always tried to suppress. I'm like "bosmer here. Meat is meat."

Anonymouswizard
2015-10-20, 03:59 PM
I know, right? The concept of nonhuman races having different cultural groups without being biologically distinct seems completely impossible to the people at TSR/WotC, it would seem. 5th really made it bad, since they included multiple subraces for each race in the PHB; in 3.5, I could just keep all the elves and dwarves to the PHB stats and say that the 'wood elves' were just a different culture, regardless of what the MM might say, since the players weren't supposed to be using it anyway.

I'm going to have to give into pressure and run D&D soon, at which point I will be doing the exact same thing with 2e, with the player's will take the basic elf traits and gain weapon familiarity* and appearance based on their variety of elf.
-Surface Elves have tanned skin and dark hair. Wood Elves are familiar with bows, and sea elves with spears. 'High elves' don't exist anymore, but they were plains elves and skilled with axes.
-Drow have pale skin and white hair. They are familiar with the dagger, although a few use short swords, due to the underdark being too cramped for many weapons.

Dwarves have a racial weapon of the spear, for gnomes it's the crossbow. I haven't decided on humans yet, but I'm considering the axe and having them literally be degenerate high elves.

* I can't remember if this is a thing for 2e elves, but if it isn't I'll just give them a free proficiency in it. I'll do the same for every other race and culture.


I mean, I don't mind, say, High elves getting a free cantrip to represent their magical society and culture, while wood elves get some extra weapon proficiencies. Heck, you could even put forward an argument for minor stat boosts. But unless its Drow versus Surface Elf level of difference, I agree, they should probably just have "elf" race like they used to.

As I said, I'd like it to either be all or none, and in the Player's Handbook it should be none. In setting products give as many subraces as you want, as long as you give humans the same variety of stats.


Getting back to the 'respect the forest' discussion, I always like the Bosmer (Elder Scrolls wood elf) society's version; they do not harm any living plant in their home of Valenwood. They can use wood from other parts of the world cut down by others, but they will not harm plants on their own. Instead, they're strict carnivores, eating everything up to and including any of the other sentient beings in Tamriel. They may even practice cannibalism and eat their own kind, under certain circumstances. Makes a certain quest in Skyrim hilarious when a cannibal tries to 'seduce' you into joining the cult by implying cannibalism is an urge you've always tried to suppress. I'm like "bosmer here. Meat is meat."

That's actually really interesting. It's making me consider having Wood Elves rely on trees killed by lightning strikes or similar, although I'm not sure how useful such wood would be.

Kitten Champion
2015-10-20, 04:13 PM
Why do Elves give a damn about forests anyways? Well, I suppose ruinous deforestation would be more of an issue for the longer-lived, and I guess Wood Elves are kind of stuck with the whole plant-life thing, but I don't see why it's considered their deal implicitly.

Honest Tiefling
2015-10-20, 04:21 PM
Why do Elves give a damn about forests anyways? Well, I suppose ruinous deforestation would be more of an issue for the longer-lived, and I guess Wood Elves are kind of stuck with the whole plant-life thing, but I don't see why it's considered their deal implicitly.

Because Lord of the Rings. Why do dwarves fight? Lord of the Rings. Why do Rangers exist as a class? Lord of the Rings.

Keltest
2015-10-20, 04:21 PM
Why do Elves give a damn about forests anyways? Well, I suppose ruinous deforestation would be more of an issue for the longer-lived, and I guess Wood Elves are kind of stuck with the whole plant-life thing, but I don't see why it's considered their deal implicitly.

It isn't, not universally. Wood Elves are one interpretation, certainly, but having "floating crystal cities" elves that don't care about nature any more than humans is perfectly valid as well. And then theres the elves who aren't any more connected with nature than anyone else, but are just generally more wise and intelligent than humans, so they know to respect it more.


Because Lord of the Rings. Why do dwarves fight? Lord of the Rings. Why do Rangers exist as a class? Lord of the Rings.

LOTR elves are not any more concerned with the forest and nature than humans or dwarves. So called 'Wood elves" are named such because they live in forests, not because of some magical affinity.

Kitten Champion
2015-10-20, 04:49 PM
It isn't, not universally. Wood Elves are one interpretation, certainly, but having "floating crystal cities" elves that don't care about nature any more than humans is perfectly valid as well. And then theres the elves who aren't any more connected with nature than anyone else, but are just generally more wise and intelligent than humans, so they know to respect it more.

True, but the Elf archetype seems rather intertwined with all things forest-y and...



LOTR elves are not any more concerned with the forest and nature than humans or dwarves. So called 'Wood elves" are named such because they live in forests, not because of some magical affinity.

This. Not that I think Elves should act like Captain Planet villains or anything, but Tolkien and many other popular modern interpretations of Elves are not specifically obsessed with preserving the forests of the world or anything. It just feels like they've been lost in the imagery.

Honest Tiefling
2015-10-20, 04:55 PM
This. Not that I think Elves should act like Captain Planet villains or anything, but Tolkien and many other popular modern interpretations of Elves are not specifically obsessed with preserving the forests of the world or anything. It just feels like they've been lost in the imagery.

Lost in the imagery? Yeah, I think you answered your own question. Halflings aren't exactly the best interpretation of Hobbits, either. But you start with a simplistic overview of the race, and editions and rulebooks tack on more and more stuff and then a race that was previously very happy in their own homes becomes nomadic. But they got that first initial nudge, I think, from either LOTR or from their early association with fey.

VoxRationis
2015-10-20, 09:29 PM
Why do Elves give a damn about forests anyways? Well, I suppose ruinous deforestation would be more of an issue for the longer-lived, and I guess Wood Elves are kind of stuck with the whole plant-life thing, but I don't see why it's considered their deal implicitly.

As has been said, many elves don't have a particularly strong tie to the forests beyond living in them. But it's not unreasonable for them to care about the environment: a low population growth rate leaves them without a strong incentive to develop too much, and a long lifespan means that short-term profits don't outweigh long-term stewardship.

Regitnui
2015-10-21, 02:09 AM
Why do Elves give a damn about forests anyways? Well, I suppose ruinous deforestation would be more of an issue for the longer-lived, and I guess Wood Elves are kind of stuck with the whole plant-life thing, but I don't see why it's considered their deal implicitly.

Elf-stereotype: "Look at all this beauty, the way the sun falls through the canopy like a shower of gold. The delicately-beaded web of this spider, the natural grace of the deer..."

Dwarf/human-stereotype: *pulls out chainsaw* " The sunlight is better without the branches in the way. That spider is venomous, and the deer is food for my family. Shoo, elf."

Keltest
2015-10-21, 07:37 AM
Elf-stereotype: "Look at all this beauty, the way the sun falls through the canopy like a shower of gold. The delicately-beaded web of this spider, the natural grace of the deer..."

Dwarf/human-stereotype: *pulls out chainsaw* " The sunlight is better without the branches in the way. That spider is venomous, and the deer is food for my family. Shoo, elf."

I am half tempted to include an order of dwarven hunters that kill their prey by throwing chainsaws at them into my campaign setting now.

goto124
2015-10-21, 07:48 AM
Dwarf: *throws an axe at the elf*
Human: *picks up the dwarf and throws her*

Hawkstar
2015-10-21, 07:49 AM
Why do Elves give a damn about forests anyways? Well, I suppose ruinous deforestation would be more of an issue for the longer-lived, and I guess Wood Elves are kind of stuck with the whole plant-life thing, but I don't see why it's considered their deal implicitly.

They are the stewards of the world, freed from its needs so as to not be corrupted by it. They don't lose sight of long-term trends in favor of short-term gains, because they have no need of said short-term gains. Seriously - they live on a single wafer of cheap bread a day.

It is their duty to preserve the world and all life in it (Except Orcs, who only exist because some god wanted to play Total Annihilation with the world, and many aberrations). That said - they care about life on the ecological level more than the individual level (Though they'll still value remarkable individuals, and lament the passing of said remarkable individuals for decades, whether it's a human, tree, fellow elf, or spider. However, they also recognize that such loss is inevitable, and WILL move on.). However, they also recognize the need to prune out individuals to prevent overgrowth. Sometimes, that does mean killing 'innocent' people. Sorry, but the city needs to be trimmed back. Its suburbs are worse than kudzu.

Of course, this pisses people off (predictably), so:
DON'T: Have a pile of 'flash cards' prepared before the campaign starts, with the preparations round-by-round actions an elf will take to subdue and humiliate or destroy the party without risk of harm to itself when they attack for being derided as "predictable". :smalltongue:

Excession
2015-10-21, 07:28 PM
For me personally, Elves don't live in pristine forests or trackless jungles. They live in gardens. Every tree and plant has a purpose, or possibly more than one. Sure, to a city dweller they look like forests, but to anyone who knows forests they're quite different. Also possibly quite scary, because if you're a lone human woodsman, walking into an elf's garden without an invitation might not be a good idea.

For example yew makes a nice boundary hedge, or to mark a cemetery, and in a century they'll be big enough to harvest parts of them to make longbows. This doesn't kill the yew tree, they can survive losing a few branches just fine. Yew can survive losing most of the tree, they'll just sprout from the stump.

I imagine they might even have trees to do their mining for them. A bit of magi-bio-tech and your tree now pulls iron oxides from the ground into its branches. Coppice the tree every now and then, process into charcoal, then burn without air. Now you have metallic iron. Sure, it's not very much, and it takes ages to establish, but it doesn't take much work and the trees look good in the meantime. Even if you're a degenerate wood elf and you don't know how to engineer the trees any more, they still produce seeds or grow from cuttings just fine. Humans call the tree "Ironwood". Elves look down on humans for their lack of poetry.

This extends to Drow as well. While dwarves will carve their square halls out of solid stone, and humans might try to build a city across the bottom of a huge cavern, Drow cities are often built into living cave systems. Think walls built out of flowstone over centuries. They're incredibly easy for outsiders to get lost in, but that suits the defenders just fine. The inner cities and temples especially are places of great beauty; no light is allowed to shine there, so few other races ever see them.

The Fury
2015-10-21, 09:17 PM
DON'T: Admit that Elves fart. Ever. They just don't, okay?

Hm. I guess that explains why Elves are more environmentally friendly. Zero emissions.

Ahem.

In a game I played there was an Elvish NPC that traveled with us that I actually rather liked. Maybe it was because she had the potential to be a really obnoxious character but actually came off as rather amiable and endearing. She was a druid that lived in a forest, so I expected that she'd be a stoic nature-lover that would nag us every time we went to chop firewood and extoll the virtues of a vegetarian diet. Though she was mostly just a good-natured ditz-- well-meaning if a little absent minded. Though in conversations my character had with her, I gathered that she probably wasn't an example of a typical Elf in the setting.

Regitnui
2015-10-22, 02:30 AM
Hm. I guess that explains why Elves are more environmentally friendly. Zero emissions.

Ahem.


I laughed way too hard at this. You get inspiration!

@ElvesInGardens: Makes sense to me. Humans and dwarfs just don't recognise how an elven settlement is divided into village and farm, seeing it all as forest. It also leads nicely into what I said earlier, the spider building its web and the deer prancing through the forest are the elvish equivalent of lawn ornaments, adding to their garden's character.

Lord Raziere
2015-10-22, 04:16 AM
A new idea for elves has occurred to me:

DO: Make elves into humans who have made deals with certain magical forces that alter their very natures as a result. For example, wood elves are just humans who made a deal with Nature magic to be blessed with fruit and clothes made from leaves, vine and wood as long as they do not harm forests, and thus they grow pointed ears like leaves and have a love for nature.

or for a drow/dark elf, they are simply humans who made a deal with night magic and thus can see and blend into the dark better than anyone, even use shadow magic, but their skin turns black, their hair white and so on.

in short, elves are humans who for some reason or other intentionally connected themselves with some magical force and got mutated as a result in both body, mind and soul. different races of elf are simply different versions of the same magic.

also:

DO: remember that nature is a cruel mistress. the cycle of life includes death, the pretty deer is hunted by the tiger. any elf that loves nature recognizes the death side of it as well as the life side of it- and regards it with just as much beauty and wonder. Thus do they regard a frolicking deer and her foal as beautiful- but they consider knocking their arrow to their bow, and shooting a deer in one shot to end its life so they can eat it just as beautiful. predator and prey, life and death, an eternal cycle of one life ending so that another lives and grows- is it not all BEAUTIFUL?

goto124
2015-10-22, 06:21 AM
What's the difference between an elf, a druid, and a dryad?

Regitnui
2015-10-22, 07:46 AM
What's the difference between an elf, a druid, and a dryad?

One is an occupation, the other is a race, and the last is a spirit.

goto124
2015-10-22, 08:06 AM
I can be an elf for only 7 hours a day on weekdays?

I misread what you meant by occupation, and thought of that =P

VoxRationis
2015-10-22, 09:20 AM
For me personally, Elves don't live in pristine forests or trackless jungles. They live in gardens. Every tree and plant has a purpose, or possibly more than one. Sure, to a city dweller they look like forests, but to anyone who knows forests they're quite different. Also possibly quite scary, because if you're a lone human woodsman, walking into an elf's garden without an invitation might not be a good idea.
...
I imagine they might even have trees to do their mining for them. A bit of magi-bio-tech and your tree now pulls iron oxides from the ground into its branches. Coppice the tree every now and then, process into charcoal, then burn without air. Now you have metallic iron. Sure, it's not very much, and it takes ages to establish, but it doesn't take much work and the trees look good in the meantime. Even if you're a degenerate wood elf and you don't know how to engineer the trees any more, they still produce seeds or grow from cuttings just fine. Humans call the tree "Ironwood". Elves look down on humans for their lack of poetry.


I've used these ideas before. The latter one actually doesn't require that much tinkering with (though you would probably want to increase root strength and relative growth); I remember reading a paper describing how trees (eucalyptus, if I recall correctly) sitting over gold deposits have noticeably higher concentrations of gold in their leaves.

Excession
2015-10-22, 07:00 PM
I've used these ideas before. The latter one actually doesn't require that much tinkering with (though you would probably want to increase root strength and relative growth); I remember reading a paper describing how trees (eucalyptus, if I recall correctly) sitting over gold deposits have noticeably higher concentrations of gold in their leaves.

For sea or coastal elves, filtering stuff out of seawater with modified coral, seaweed, or maybe mangroves might work too. IRL iodine has been commercially extracted from seaweed, which concentrates it naturally.

ThinkMinty
2015-10-23, 12:08 AM
What if it turns out that Wood Elves are all a bunch of dendrophiles? That might explain their love of trees.

Vrock_Summoner
2015-10-23, 01:24 AM
A new idea for elves has occurred to me:

DO: Make elves into humans who have made deals with certain magical forces that alter their very natures as a result. For example, wood elves are just humans who made a deal with Nature magic to be blessed with fruit and clothes made from leaves, vine and wood as long as they do not harm forests, and thus they grow pointed ears like leaves and have a love for nature.

or for a drow/dark elf, they are simply humans who made a deal with night magic and thus can see and blend into the dark better than anyone, even use shadow magic, but their skin turns black, their hair white and so on.

in short, elves are humans who for some reason or other intentionally connected themselves with some magical force and got mutated as a result in both body, mind and soul. different races of elf are simply different versions of the same magic.
I'm actually doing something fairly similar to this in my Incarnum setting-in-the-works; elves are the descendents of a group of humans (technically azurins, but that's basically just a human subrace) who tried to achieve immortality/demigodhood by fusing their soul into their physical body, but only managed it partway, resulting in them having powerful bodies and an inherent connection to the ethereal but also incomplete souls and vulnerability to supernatural attacks. They don't actually have pointy ears, though.

On-topic...

Do: As with all races, give them something to set them apart from the norm. It's okay to use them - they're recognizable and well-conceived, making them easy to use, and there are stats for them in most multi-race fantasy games - but try to do something cool with them to set them apart from their usual depictions.

Don't: Call it an elf if it isn't, though. Adding and removing elements to make them unique is great, but if you're really reconstructing everything about them from the ground up, may as well do that for their name, too, because the name will only confuse people at that point.