View Full Version : The Walking Dead (season 6) (Spoilers)
It was really annoying the way they jumped back and forth in the show being out of chronological order. It was unnecessary difficulty in following along what was happening. Bad move.
I do like how Rick, the Hero, finally had enough of Stupids. Heroes always take care of them which is why things always go wrong when it's not the Villain's fault of going wrong. Rick doesn't do that anymore. He will tell the Stupids to snap out of it and is willing to teach them, but he no longer tolerates them. Nice call on dismissing the Priest when he volunteered. Just a flat out "no" and moved on with the meeting. I called it when Stupid Neighbor finally admitted Rick was right and shook his hand to apologize he was zombie chow. Sure enough he was the very next scene. He wasn't being stupid when he got bit, but it was due to his lack of experience of being observant that zombies tend to come out of nowhere.
Sidekick Glenn also had enough of Stupids. He dismisses his personal Stupid project but is willing to teach him. Unlike Stupid Neighbor and Stupid Priest, Glenn's Stupid project manages to redeem himself a bit in both actions and words. It's a start.
It would be Morgan who notices Carol is more than she appears. Carol stays in character, but I think she knows Morgan is not fooled.
Who are the likely suspects to blow the Town Horn and ruin the Plan?
1) Town Leader - Jaded after the death of her husband and son, she wants to end it all so everyone must die. Having been an Honest True Leader of the Safe Haven Community, her last act is to fall into the Donkey Cavity who just has to ruin it all.
2) Dead Dad's Son - Has cause to hate Rick. Mom is right that Son will refuse to listen to his words. She'll need to be the one to teach him. In this scenario, Son gets his revenge on Rick and the Town he thinks abandoned his father by disrupting the Plan and destroying everything, to become the absolute Stupid.
3) One of the Returnees - Those who came to the Town in the beginning of the episode who were on patrol during last season's fiasco. Got secretly recruited by this season's Villain, the Donkey Cavity who just has to ruin it all, hinted at last season and rumored to be Neegan.
4) The Writers - No one blew the horn on purpose. It was some freak accident or a wandering zombie did it by chance or it's not even from the Town, Rick & Michonne were just mistaken. The Plan is ruined by fiat because you just can't have a happy ending in a zombie apocalypse story. They want to destroy the Town quickly so they can move on with their plot line.
Psyren
2015-10-26, 01:19 AM
Some questions above were answered, and we got a bombshell tonight.
What's the spoiler policy for this thread?
Also, I agree with the overall problem with zombie shows. Yahtzee pointed it out pretty clearly at the end of his review of, fittingly, the Walking Dead game:
This is the risk when you go with a setting like a zombie apocalypse which isn't so much tired as about to be taken off life support. I mean, we know how this is going to end, don't we? Either evil military show up or best case scenario, two to four of the least @$$hole-y survivors go to live on an island somewhere. What do you think they're going to do, find a cure? Rebuild society? Then everyone gets lemonade?
So they go with option 4, The Writers, ruining The Plan by fiat via The Wolves, Donkey Cavities Who Just Have To Ruin It All. It can get tiresome never to have a happy ending. I accept there needs to be conflict for a story but dealing with the walker swarm was enough of a conflict for interesting tension. You can still have it not go perfectly with a large group of walkers not following the herd and head towards Alexandria anyway. Then show the townspeople dealing with that, their first true exposure to the horror.
I am concerned I didn't feel anything when Glenn got eaten. I like the character, but I had no emotional response. It's possible I was already jaded by the Wolves ruining everything, so it felt like "what's the point". One fan theory suggests Glenn isn't dead yet. The guts we seen eaten could be Reformed/Relapsed Stupid Nicholas, Glenn's Pet Project, whose body fell on top of him. If Glenn is still alive it would be a contrivance and/or deus ex machina how he escapes the swarm around him.
Which leads to Rick. He's not dead yet, but they leave you on a cliffhanger of him trapped in the RV and the swarm approaches. Easy way out for Rick to live is the RV finally starts. In the theory Rick does become walker food, I sense Morgan trying to become the new leader of the group, conflicting with Carol or Michonne for the position. Daryl is qualified but he wouldn't want it. Even if Rick does make it Morgan might attempt a coup. Morgan is on the cusp of being demoted from Cool Guy to Stupid. Promos hint next episode centers on Morgan, so it could be decided then.
Shekinah
2015-10-26, 12:41 PM
Not really impressed with the season so far. It's still early, so hopefully things will change and we'll have more complications other than lots of talking and the generic sad backstory.
Psyren
2015-10-26, 04:38 PM
I wouldn't call it a contrivance if he survives - we've established since S1 that smearing blood on you gets you unnoticed by the horde. In fact, I have to wonder why Glenn didn't try that once it was clear Nicholas had no idea where he was going. Hell, I'd have grabbed a body and lathered up the second I saw the target building already burned down. In fact, ALL of them should have tried that, since it's the most surefire way of getting past a horde when you can't move quickly. (And really, of all the people to forget that strategy, Glenn and Michonne? They practically invented it!)
Which leads to Rick. He's not dead yet, but they leave you on a cliffhanger of him trapped in the RV and the swarm approaches. Easy way out for Rick to live is the RV finally starts. In the theory Rick does become walker food, I sense Morgan trying to become the new leader of the group, conflicting with Carol or Michonne for the position. Daryl is qualified but he wouldn't want it. Even if Rick does make it Morgan might attempt a coup. Morgan is on the cusp of being demoted from Cool Guy to Stupid. Promos hint next episode centers on Morgan, so it could be decided then.
Killing Rick is a good way to lose most of their viewership; I highly doubt they'd be that stupid. They spent way too much time building him up ("the new world needs Rick Grimes") for him to go out like that.
Of course, having said that I don't see how they can end the series on any kind of positive note at all given what the world is/has become.
ryuplaneswalker
2015-10-26, 04:46 PM
Of course, having said that I don't see how they can end the series on any kind of positive note at all given what the world is/has become.
This is why I would have had Highschool Techer guy not be full of crap, it would have given Rick and Co an actual goal to spend one or two seasons reaching as opposed to the..really just aimless wandering the cast has done since after the farm.
otakuryoga
2015-10-26, 08:31 PM
One fan theory suggests Glenn isn't dead yet. The guts we seen eaten could be Reformed/Relapsed Stupid Nicholas, Glenn's Pet Project, whose body fell on top of him.
oh they absolutely were Nicholas' guts and not Glenns
If Glenn is still alive it would be a contrivance and/or deus ex machina how he escapes the swarm around him.
100% agree
the walkers near Glenns head that can't reach N's body will start chowing on Glenns face
and after N is eaten those at that end will start chowing on Glenn who is now smothered in fresh delicious smelling N blood
I see NO WAY they can have Glenn escape
unless they come up with some AMAZING yet in-world believable way he escaped bringing him back alive would possibly be the very big straw that breaks the back and makes me stop watching
its not like they have been afraid of killing off big characters before now
I do like how they came full circle though.. 1st time Glenn talks to Rick he calls him a dumbass over the walkie-talkie
(presumably)last time he speaks to Rick he calls him a dumbass over the walkie-talkie
I do like how they came full circle though.. 1st time Glenn talks to Rick he calls him a dumbass over the walkie-talkie
(presumably)last time he speaks to Rick he calls him a dumbass over the walkie-talkie
Yes. That was the nostalgic clue they were killing off Glenn.
otakuryoga
2015-10-27, 02:31 AM
I am interested in seeing how they get Rick outta the fire
seen some say he will get the RV started...but in last shot the road in front and back is already clogged with walkers
we don't see him getting out and running ahead of the herd...
back door on RV certainly looked like it was messed up too bad to hold off walkers when wolf guy came in shooting...
but he is the one guy I never worry about dying from week to week.. it is Ricks world..the rest are just walker chow
VexingFool
2015-10-27, 03:01 AM
Worst thing about the zombie apocalypse...
Ninjas!
Psyren
2015-10-27, 09:22 AM
This is why I would have had Highschool Techer guy not be full of crap, it would have given Rick and Co an actual goal to spend one or two seasons reaching as opposed to the..really just aimless wandering the cast has done since after the farm.
Seriously. When I thought the scientist thing was legit it actually gave the show some meaning. Now it's "well, let's see how long we can grow tomatoes until crazies, sadists or random herds show up this time."
Spoiler alert - it's never long.
Also, even if Alexandria isn't routinely attacked, at some point those solar cells are going to need maintenance. How long till they end up roughing it with everyone else? Just, ugh.
I am interested in seeing how they get Rick outta the fire
seen some say he will get the RV started...but in last shot the road in front and back is already clogged with walkers
we don't see him getting out and running ahead of the herd...
back door on RV certainly looked like it was messed up too bad to hold off walkers when wolf guy came in shooting...
but he is the one guy I never worry about dying from week to week.. it is Ricks world..the rest are just walker chow
I can see Rick going on hiatus for a few episodes though with his fate unclear and focusing on how the others handle a base without him, especially power struggles between Morgan, Michonne, Deanna and Carol. Then having him come back with a vengeance.
Not that I think this is a particularly good idea mind you - again, it would just be a holding pattern with no real goal in sight for the group. But at least it would shake things up.
Starbuck_II
2015-10-27, 11:39 AM
Yeah, think about if the show would be if scientist was legit:
a. Plot point of other men want to steal him so they get fame of saving everyone.
b. He could start with only being able save someone just bitten from dying from the infection (can't cure zombyism yet)
1) This makes whether killing a wounded person is a bigger choice. If they can carry them back to him he could save them. But is it worth the risk.
2) No longer is it: he is bit, might as well kill them. Now, decide if wound is worth living for.
c. The plot changes from survival to salvaging supplies to save the world.
Side question, why are zombies strong enough to rip skin open at the end with Glenn (whether him or the other guy)... are zombies gaining super strength?
I'll accept bites, but strength?
Psyren
2015-10-27, 11:48 AM
Side question, why are zombies strong enough to rip skin open at the end with Glenn (whether him or the other guy)... are zombies gaining super strength?
I'll accept bites, but strength?
They seem to be as strong as humans who can't feel anything. Which is pretty strong; think wrestling with a crazy person where you need multiple orderlies to restrain even a fairly lightweight individual. In D&D terms, there's a reason zombie humans get a slam attack while regular humans don't.
They also established this strength a long way back - e.g S1 (ripping up Rick's horse with their bare hands) and in S2 (a single walker tearing into Dale's stomach.)
Errata
2015-10-27, 08:55 PM
It was a weird death scene. It seemed pretty clearly the other guy's entrails, which is not quite as unambiguous a death as it easily could have been for such a main character. There were other little details off. One odd detail is that it seems to be the world's tallest dumpster, which would be sized exactly large enough for Glenn to scoot under, reminiscent of Glenn rescuing Rick from the Tank, which was called back to in this episode with the dumbass comment. Also all the out of show stuff, like how muted the cast reactions are compared to when a character is normally written off the show. That could be explained by a continued appearance as a zombie/flashback before being written off completely. The show does seem to have been building toward Glenn possibly being one of the main characters to die. I wouldn't expect him to live out the series. So if you're going to kill him, it would be silly to do this highly improbable fakeout.
I'm leaning toward thinking he really is dead, but it's not as open as shut as other major deaths.
I wouldn't call it a contrivance if he survives - we've established since S1 that smearing blood on you gets you unnoticed by the horde.
Zombie gore, not fresh, delicious human blood.
Psyren
2015-10-28, 12:14 PM
The show does seem to have been building toward Glenn possibly being one of the main characters to die.
He dies pretty brutally in the comic IIRC, so I'd expect him not to survive the show either. Granted, the show has apparently deviated from the comic in several crucial ways.
Zombie gore, not fresh, delicious human blood.
I don' tknow that we've seen someone covered in human gore try to evade a horde either so it could still work. I agree though, it's not looking good for ol' Glenn.
My problem though is what's next? They start killing off the main characters, there's no overarching point to the show besides "let's try to grow tomatoes," that herd is probably going to come back, the only other subplot we've got going is some tepid romance between Enid and Carl... so yeah, what's the point of it all? It just becomes a dreary slog through misery.
Has there ever been a point? Other than "Zombies!"?
Psyren
2015-10-29, 08:51 AM
Has there ever been a point? Other than "Zombies!"?
Season 1 had the CDC endgame, while Season 4 had the "scientist." Those were the most exciting runs of the show in my opinion because there was a clear goal in sight. For the rest... nah, not really.
They're milking it. They're purposely not letting us know the ultimate fate of Glenn and Rick for as long as possible. Nothing on them this episode. Nothing on them in the previews for the next episode.
Morgan's story was nice, to explain why he is as he is now. He keeps his Cool Guy status for now, but it is too obvious foreboding leaving the Wolf alive as a prisoner. He was at least smart enough to lock the gate door, as symbolic contrast to Eastman's unlocked doors. That wasn't lost on me. Had he left the door unlocked that would have put him on my Stupid list.
I appreciate the writers spared us the horrific irony of zombie-Eastman eating the goat which Morgan would then have to kill. I was expecting that.
Psyren
2015-11-02, 10:23 AM
Last night was just plain boring. We already know Morgan lives to Alexandria, so there was no tension in any of the "KILL ME" screamfests, it just came off as a toddler's hissyfit to me instead. Granted, I don't know anyone with PTSD (certainly not as severe as Morgan's) so maybe I'm being callous, but come on - Morgan is at this point the luckiest mutha' in the entire apocalypse. He ran into the one damn psychologist monk with a sustainable food supply in a defensible location for a hundred miles, tried to kill the guy three times and ended up getting cured by the guy, fed, and becoming his disciple (and heir by default) instead.
...Until whoops, munch, off I go.
They're milking it. They're purposely not letting us know the ultimate fate of Glenn and Rick for as long as possible. Nothing on them this episode. Nothing on them in the previews for the next episode.
Morgan's story was nice, to explain why he is as he is now. He keeps his Cool Guy status for now, but it is too obvious foreboding leaving the Wolf alive as a prisoner. He was at least smart enough to lock the gate door, as symbolic contrast to Eastman's unlocked doors. That wasn't lost on me. Had he left the door unlocked that would have put him on my Stupid list.
He's still on mine. All life is not precious, not in that universe. The truly strong survivors - Rick, Carol, Daryl, Michonne - are the ones who can recognize that fact while not losing themselves. All too often, protecting the precious lives in that universe means removing the ones that aren't from the equation before they can do any more harm.
S6 might be attempting to sell us on the concept; if so, they're not off to a great start, between the Wolves, folks like Nicholas who are either too dumb to live or simply evil, and pretty much everything in the last 5 seasons too.
I appreciate the writers spared us the horrific irony of zombie-Eastman eating the goat which Morgan would then have to kill. I was expecting that.
The show's been a bit inconsistent about that. There was one episode where someone remarked that the walkers leave animals alone (and the virus certainly does) - like it was designed to prey exclusively on humans, as we see them shambling around a deer or something. But in S1 we saw them rip Rick's horse to pieces.
Callos_DeTerran
2015-11-02, 11:16 AM
He's still on mine. All life is not precious, not in that universe. The truly strong survivors - Rick, Carol, Daryl, Michonne - are the ones who can recognize that fact while not losing themselves. All too often, protecting the precious lives in that universe means removing the ones that aren't from the equation before they can do any more harm.
Sorry, but I have to disagree on some points. Rick and Carol may be survivors but that's all they are and surviving isn't enough, they have very much lost themselves and I feel more pity than anything for them as they are now. Daryl and Michonne are far better off now than they were earlier in the series. And if Morgan can keep to his new path I dare say he is too because he hasn't gone as far as Eastman did, he's tempered Aikido's philosophy with the new realities of the world.
I'll be honest though, the things I find most disheartening about the Walking Dead (and really any zombie media) is how quickly people who prioritize any form of morality above just the making it to the next day are labeled Stupid. It ain't just about making it to the next day if you don't make the next day worthwhile, otherwise you might as well not be alive in the first place. This season has been almost cringe worthy in watching Rick and Carol seemingly doing their best to ruin Alexandria and the people inside of it.
Psyren
2015-11-02, 11:21 AM
I disagree right back; I think they have plenty of morals and aren't lost at all. Rick and Carol wanted to separate a battered housewife from her abusive husband, who was busy getting a free pass from the town "leadership" on his horrible behavior simply because he was a doctor. (Note that they didn't even want to kill the guy until he committed murder right in front of them.) Rick then saved the entire town while they were voting to kick him out, followed almost immediately by Rick and Carol saving the town yet again, from Walkers and Wolves respectively. They would have been the next Terminus, a bunch of well-meaning ingenues that would have been torn apart or turned into monsters themselves, if it weren't for those two.
Callos_DeTerran
2015-11-02, 12:55 PM
I disagree right back; I think they have plenty of morals and aren't lost at all. Rick and Carol wanted to separate a battered housewife from her abusive husband, who was busy getting a free pass from the town "leadership" on his horrible behavior simply because he was a doctor. (Note that they didn't even want to kill the guy until he committed murder right in front of them.) Rick then saved the entire town while they were voting to kick him out, followed almost immediately by Rick and Carol saving the town yet again, from Walkers and Wolves respectively. They would have been the next Terminus, a bunch of well-meaning ingenues that would have been torn apart or turned into monsters themselves, if it weren't for those two.
You got a very different read of the situation of Rick with the abusive husband than I did, and Carol for that matter. I got the impression that the only reason Rick didn't openly kill him was because Jesse happened to be around while Carol cared only because Rick cared.
Meanwhile I think you may be over-stating how much Rick did during the town meeting, I doubt the entire town was in danger and the town was divided on what to do with Rick. Also, Carol flat out killed at least one Alexandrite to save herself during the Wolf attack, never mind the fact that Carol has taken matters into her own hands on other occasions for self-preservation that resulted in the murder of others. But y'know, that's all 'good' because she's not being Stupid.
I agree on Rick and the walkers at least, he didn't intend to bring the Alexandrites into herding a herd without any preparation, matters simply forced his hand but, at this point in time, I'm looking forward to the day Carol is no longer with the group one way or another.
Starbuck_II
2015-11-02, 01:10 PM
You got a very different read of the situation of Rick with the abusive husband than I did, and Carol for that matter. I got the impression that the only reason Rick didn't openly kill him was because Jesse happened to be around while Carol cared only because Rick cared.
Meanwhile I think you may be over-stating how much Rick did during the town meeting, I doubt the entire town was in danger and the town was divided on what to do with Rick. Also, Carol flat out killed at least one Alexandrite to save herself during the Wolf attack, never mind the fact that Carol has taken matters into her own hands on other occasions for self-preservation that resulted in the murder of others. But y'know, that's all 'good' because she's not being Stupid.
I agree on Rick and the walkers at least, he didn't intend to bring the Alexandrites into herding a herd without any preparation, matters simply forced his hand but, at this point in time, I'm looking forward to the day Carol is no longer with the group one way or another.
Yeah, I really dislike Carol killing that random person in town. Why did she do that?
Sorry, but I have to disagree on some points. Rick and Carol may be survivors but that's all they are and surviving isn't enough, they have very much lost themselves and I feel more pity than anything for them as they are now. Daryl and Michonne are far better off now than they were earlier in the series. And if Morgan can keep to his new path I dare say he is too because he hasn't gone as far as Eastman did, he's tempered Aikido's philosophy with the new realities of the world.
I'll be honest though, the things I find most disheartening about the Walking Dead (and really any zombie media) is how quickly people who prioritize any form of morality above just the making it to the next day are labeled Stupid. It ain't just about making it to the next day if you don't make the next day worthwhile, otherwise you might as well not be alive in the first place. This season has been almost cringe worthy in watching Rick and Carol seemingly doing their best to ruin Alexandria and the people inside of it.
Stupids aren't such because of morality. Heroes have morality. They like saving and protecting Stupids because of their morality. Stupids are such because they just don't get it. It's in many forms. Some deny the situation. Others just flat out refuse to follow The Plan and ruin it for the others. Another kind are those who blindly follow and obey the Jerk or Evil Bastard Leader of the Safe Haven Community despite the obviousness of how evil/wrong their plan is. The Hero or Cool Guy they'll argue with or disobey, but they ask how high when the Jerk/Evil Leader says jump.
Errata
2015-11-02, 03:28 PM
Yeah, I really dislike Carol killing that random person in town. Why did she do that?
Which random person, when? I recall she killed one townsperson who had already been mortally wounded by a Wolf. That doesn't count as "killing a random person" when the person was about to die anyway. In this Zombie apocalypse, that's standard procedure. It A) kept her from turning, B) put her out of her misery, and C) kept her from screaming and attracting more Wolves.
Psyren
2015-11-02, 03:29 PM
You got a very different read of the situation of Rick with the abusive husband than I did, and Carol for that matter. I got the impression that the only reason Rick didn't openly kill him was because Jesse happened to be around while Carol cared only because Rick cared.
You're remembering wrong - he went straight to Deanna and implored her to put him on time-out, or at the very least separate them. Some kind of punitive action to let him know that what he was doing wasn't okay, and to protect Jessie and her two sons, all three of whom were becoming rapidly screwed up the longer they lived with that horrible excuse for a human being. She refused both because slurp slurp doctor. And even after that shrug of authority, Rick simply went to talk to him (in his officially-appointed capacity, I remind you) and PETE escalated the situation.
Meanwhile I think you may be over-stating how much Rick did during the town meeting, I doubt the entire town was in danger and the town was divided on what to do with Rick. Also, Carol flat out killed at least one Alexandrite to save herself during the Wolf attack, never mind the fact that Carol has taken matters into her own hands on other occasions for self-preservation that resulted in the murder of others. But y'know, that's all 'good' because she's not being Stupid.
That Alexandrite was already dead. She was gutted and whimpering, and they were nowhere near the med bay, even assuming their new sorta-doctor could have done anything about it were she right next door. Carol ended her misery, and not only kept herself alive by silencing her before her cries could alert more Wolves, she also kept others alive by keeping her from turning and putting walkers inside the walls. The prison and Woodbury proved how easily that kind of nonsense can spiral when you're dealing with people who don't know their trigger finger from a toilet roll. That's the world they live in.
At this point in time, I'm looking forward to the day Carol is no longer with the group one way or another.
I'm sure they'll kill her off, the show has a habit of doing in people who are halfway competent. Of course, once they do I won't be watching anymore and therefore won't care.
Callos_DeTerran
2015-11-02, 04:26 PM
You're remembering wrong - he went straight to Deanna and implored her to put him on time-out, or at the very least separate them. Some kind of punitive action to let him know that what he was doing wasn't okay, and to protect Jessie and her two sons, all three of whom were becoming rapidly screwed up the longer they lived with that horrible excuse for a human being. She refused both because slurp slurp doctor. And even after that shrug of authority, Rick simply went to talk to him (in his officially-appointed capacity, I remind you) and PETE escalated the situation.
Distinctly possible on the bolded part, my memory isn't the best on things I only view once. I do not remember Rick being nearly as reasonable as you're portraying though. I remember the conversation with Deanna and thinking Deanna was wrong for not wanting to take any action while Rick was because he wanted to take too extreme of actions both for what Pete was doing and considering what he offered in end of the world (at the very least he could teach someone else the basics after all).
And yeah, Rick went to talk to him and Pete escalated but I do remember that scene and Rick was totally trying to instigate a scene the entire time. Yeah it was in his officially-appointed capacity, but he was trying to provoke Pete into doing something and succeeded.
That Alexandrite was already dead. She was gutted and whimpering, and they were nowhere near the med bay, even assuming their new sorta-doctor could have done anything about it were she right next door. Carol ended her misery, and not only kept herself alive by silencing her before her cries could alert more Wolves, she also kept others alive by keeping her from turning and putting walkers inside the walls. The prison and Woodbury proved how easily that kind of nonsense can spiral when you're dealing with people who don't know their trigger finger from a toilet roll. That's the world they live in.
You and I have very different definitions of dead. If someone is still breathing and able to talk/make noise, they aren't dead...especially if the community you are in actually has medicine and somewhat trained medical personnel which Alexandria has. Carol didn't put that woman out of her misery, she silenced her before she could draw the Wolves to Carol and that's about it. Now if the woman was assuredly dying (we have no clue) or was already dead, definitely keep her from turning. Carol wasn't in that situation, as can be seen by the fact that less skilled people were able to carry a mortally injured woman to the new sorta-doctor for treatment. Carol just didn't care, plain and simple.
I'm sure they'll kill her off, the show has a habit of doing in people who are halfway competent. Of course, once they do I won't be watching anymore and therefore won't care.
Not really..the competent ones tend to survive unless they in any way act as a moral or ethical compass to the rest of the group (I fear for Michonne precisely because of this). Carol is neither of those so she'll probably be fine until she abandons the group which is what I expect will happen.
Psyren
2015-11-02, 06:18 PM
Distinctly possible on the bolded part, my memory isn't the best on things I only view once. I do not remember Rick being nearly as reasonable as you're portraying though. I remember the conversation with Deanna and thinking Deanna was wrong for not wanting to take any action while Rick was because he wanted to take too extreme of actions both for what Pete was doing and considering what he offered in end of the world (at the very least he could teach someone else the basics after all).
Well I remember that scene, and Rick explicitly asked her to separate them and/or detain Pete for his crime. Only when she refused to do her duty did he go and try to talk things out. What he did was a perfectly reasonable approach - letting the abuser know "hey, other people know what you're doing in here, cut it out. Immediately."
Where Rick screwed up was going by himself. He should have brought his deputy (Michonne, or even better, someone from Alexandria) as backup - not only would this give him a witness to the conversation, it would be more likely to quell Pete. Of course, the latter is assuming the whole town wasn't a party to this nonsense, but even then sometimes having an outsider point out foolishness can be enough to stiffen a backbone or two.
And yeah, Rick went to talk to him and Pete escalated but I do remember that scene and Rick was totally trying to instigate a scene the entire time. Yeah it was in his officially-appointed capacity, but he was trying to provoke Pete into doing something and succeeded.
Oh gee, he wasn't totally genial toward the wife-beater, how unreasonable :smallsigh:
You and I have very different definitions of dead. If someone is still breathing and able to talk/make noise, they aren't dead...especially if the community you are in actually has medicine and somewhat trained medical personnel which Alexandria has.
You're still acting like the med bay was across the street with its doors flung open and Carol had a gurney waiting at hand. This is another scene I remember - she was alone, with a pack of Wolves within earshot, no way to haul the Alexandrian gushing blood anywhere without giving away her presence (assuming that didn't kill her anyway), while the wolves continued marauding and slaughtering until they got their hands on a firearm.
Now if the woman was assuredly dying (we have no clue)
We can make a pretty logical guess, given the level of medical expertise left in the setting (not nearly enough) and the difficulty of reaching what little there was given the proximity of hostiles. And with Carol dead, she would have died anyway, and many others besides, because Carol was the only one with the presence of mind to make a beeline for the priority 1 target (the armory.)
or was already dead, definitely keep her from turning. Carol wasn't in that situation, as can be seen by the fact that less skilled people were able to carry a mortally injured woman to the new sorta-doctor for treatment. Carol just didn't care, plain and simple.
The operative word you tossed out there without seeming to analyze it fully is people. Two people carrying a body, one of them an adult male, is a lot easier task than one woman doing so. And the folks who carried that wounded person weren't very good at fighting anyway, so that was actually the best thing for them to have been doing. And their charge died anyway.
It's not that Carol didn't care. She was just using her head, which is more than most of the Alexandrians can say.
Not really..the competent ones tend to survive unless they in any way act as a moral or ethical compass to the rest of the group (I fear for Michonne precisely because of this). Carol is neither of those so she'll probably be fine until she abandons the group which is what I expect will happen.
Again, she does have morals and ethics. She saved all their lives numerous times without expecting compensation, even helped take care of Judith for days when leaving her (and Tyreese) behind would have been by far the more expedient solution for her own survival. I'm starting to wonder if we're watching the same show at all.
Callos_DeTerran
2015-11-02, 11:07 PM
We're watching the same show, we're just interpreting it differently.
@Rick and Pete: What you see as a screw up, I saw as very intentional. Rick, a sheriff before the world ended and now duly appointed sheriff again, should full well know that he shouldn't talk to a suspect and/or perpetrator without someone else there to verify what happened in case anything went down. He didn't when he of all people would know better. And I'm not saying he should have been polite or mannerly...I said he deliberately instigated Pete into causing an incident where if anything happened (and it did) or Pete got killed (which almost happened) it would be his word against Pete's in the former and his word against the reputation of a domestic abuser in the later. Not exactly like people would be calling Rick out in such a situation. As you said, if he wanted to quell Pete, he should have brought Michonne or someone from the town. He didn't and Rick as a character is smart enough to know he should if he wanted to prevent an incident (instead of causing one).
@Carol: I never said Carol should try and haul someone by herself to where-ever their hospital was (which we don't know where it was). I'm calling her out on murdering her to save herself when there were other options available to her. Cause you know what I do remember from that episode? That the Wolves were surprised to hear there were guns in the town each time they were told about them. They didn't know about the armory and them stumbling across it would have been a matter of luck, not deliberate searching. Securing it was still a good idea mind, but it wasn't a priority. What was a priority was saving lives, something Carol didn't place as highly.
She could have just as easily stashed the woman inside a locked closet (in case she died) or just hidden her somewhere but didn't. Stomach wounds kill slow in cinema, just the way they normally work, there very easily could have been plenty of time to repel the Wolves before she died. Fact is, we don't know much about her condition but it did NOT seem set in stone that she would die from what we (and Carol) saw.
Same show, different interpretations.
Psyren
2015-11-03, 12:51 AM
Except it wouldn't be his word against Pete's, because Pete's wife and possibly son was watching/overhearing the whole thing. So that rationale doesn't make any sense to me.
@ Carol: We know where the hospital wasn't - nearby. If it were nearby, one of the 5 other non-Wolves in the vicinity would have seen her, or she them. So it's illogical to assume it was anywhere she could get to practically with a body in tow and therefore your suggestion that she try to carry her there alone is equally illogical. And yes, the Wolves didn't know there was an armory, but being allowed to go house to house with no resistance would have given them plenty of time to either find it, or simply more helpless citizens ripe for the killing, wouldn't you say?
But now you're saying she should have carried her to a closet and locked her inside. Putting aside that the only closet locks we've seen in Alexandria are on the inside of the closet, that just means another walker someone else has to worry about later. You then change to the monumentally vague "hide her somewhere," which is again going to mean another walker primed to pounce on someone at the worst possible time even if Carol had the time to waste finding such a mythical place with Wolves looking for more innocent people to kill. It's ludicrous.
You say Carol's priority wasn't on saving lives (despite all evidence to the contrary), yet your counter-suggestions would have resulted in a lot more lives lost. Different interpretations indeed.
Errata
2015-11-03, 02:05 AM
Yes, you have to look at opportunity cost. If she could stop time and spend an hour rigging up the perfect solution maybe she could have done something differently. But she was in the middle of a life and death struggle. Alexandrians were getting killed at that very moment, and Carol was one of the few people left in town capable of fighting back and possibly stopping them from killing everyone. Her actions saved many lives and turned the tide from everyone dying to many people living. If she spent a long amount of time, taking steps that may well have been impossible under the circumstances, to save a disemboweled person with negligible chance to live, then in that time the Wolves would have probably won and everyone would be dead.
It's also not as if Carol is a sociopath. They made it a point to show her shed a tear at the end after once again viewing the dead body of the smoker she lectured that morning. Alexandria lost its innocence.
Starbuck_II
2015-11-03, 01:28 PM
It's also not as if Carol is a sociopath. They made it a point to show her shed a tear at the end after once again viewing the dead body of the smoker she lectured that morning. Alexandria lost its innocence.
Nah, I think she is a psychopath. She is a decent anti-hero. Killing the anyone to accomplish her goals, but she need to be watched as she has no care who she kills (other than old friends who likely protected from her ways).
Luckily, she has goals in line with keeping the townsfolk alive for now.
Remember, she was originally banished because she has no care if someone she feels is endangering the group (when she slaughtered the sick back at the prison).
BannedInSchool
2015-11-03, 01:39 PM
Yeah, at this point I wouldn't mind if the series got a little sappy and departed from the theme that the worst part of the Zombie Apocalypse is living people. :smalltongue:
Psyren
2015-11-03, 02:32 PM
I don't mind the human brutality, as long as there's a goal in sight beyond growing tomatoes and proving for the umpteenth time that you should probably listen to Rick. The Terminus people were even worse than the Wolves in some ways (I haven't seen the Wolves cooking anyone... yet), but that just meant needing to keep a scientist safe from them was even more critical.
And going back to the S6 trailer, it looks like the town will end up besieged by a herd at some point and Daryl will end up captured by Wolves or some other band of nutcases. And for what? If the theme is just "is Morgan right, or is Carol?" then color me bored because the answer is both/neither.
Shekinah
2015-11-03, 03:05 PM
I don't mind the human brutality, as long as there's a goal in sight beyond growing tomatoes and proving for the umpteenth time that you should probably listen to Rick. The Terminus people were even worse than the Wolves in some ways (I haven't seen the Wolves cooking anyone... yet), but that just meant needing to keep a scientist safe from them was even more critical.
And going back to the S6 trailer, it looks like the town will end up besieged by a herd at some point and Daryl will end up captured by Wolves or some other band of nutcases. And for what? If the theme is just "is Morgan right, or is Carol?" then color me bored because the answer is both/neither.
This is kind of why I'm not watching the series at the moment. Once the series picks up a bit on something more interesting than the same old stuff we've seen, I'll watch more of it on Google.
Heck, I'm still confused about the season premiere.
StLordeth
2015-11-07, 09:38 PM
I mean no disrespect to anyone at all, but I've been seeing a lot of comments like these many places and I want to put my opinion down.
I was a huge fan of the comic series, I was reading them since Vol 1 due to my father and girlfriend both liking it. When I heard Walking Dead was being made into a TV Show, I got pretty excited.
Watched the first episode when it aired, it was good. I liked it. I loved the guy they got for Shane, I knew Lori from Prison Break (and had always defended that actress since she always got a bad rep - funny how that turned out in TWD) and I wasn't really familiar with Andrew Lincoln but he seemed alright.
The rest of Season 1 got chaotic, sloppy and rushed to me. I didn't enjoy the last 3 episodes at all but due to my enjoyment of the comic series I watched into Season 2.
Season 2 was a total trainwreck for me, it was boring with NO character development. Just Rick and Shane not seeing eye to eye, and some gore here and there. There were a few moments that were nice (When Rick shot the two guys in the bar) but overall, I lost interest and didn't even watch Season 3 until Season 4 had finished airing. I caught up after the mid-season finale of 4, and enjoyed the Marauders/Saviors plot immensely. Caught back up, didn't really like the drawn out Governor plot but the actor did well enough so sure, it was okay. Way better than S2.
S5 was the best episodes, to me, that the show ever put out. By far. They should have drawn the Terminus plot out a bit more, and less of the hospital, but hey, it was all entertaining with a lot of character development from several characters. I enjoyed the hell out of it and Season 6 is just getting better. Now I see comments everywhere about how the show is no good anymore, and it's just repeating itself over and over... it really isn't. It's gotten more story-based and less mindless gorey action that defined S1 and S3 almost entirely, and I just can't wrap my head around this "S5 went downhill and S6 is following suit" mentality. I think it's the total opposite and the currently aired episodes of S6 have been the best work from this show that I've seen.
But that's just my opinion, sorry for the novel.
Also, Carol is amazing. If they shock-value kill her off, I may jump on the "I'm quitting this show fanboat" because her character is so damn entertaining now. God, the character development throughout the series has been fantastic with her.
Psyren
2015-11-08, 01:51 AM
I don't think S5 went downhill at all. Finding Alexandria was a great development. I'm just... hoping they do something with this base beyond "the world sucks and innocent people will keep dying."
And ditto on Carol, she is my favorite character atm, even surpassing Michonne.
Thread etiquette: Since the thread is now getting some traffic spoiler tags are appropriate.
Anyway . . .
Rick lives, as if there was doubt. They don't show us how specifically from the RV, but we can infer he just made a run for it. Plausible, but that's not the question everyone has. They're still milking it not letting us know for sure, but we know it's on purpose by script. Maggie tells us as she tells Adam Aaron. We don't get to know what happened and deal with it. Perhaps eventually we'll get a final answer but not now.
I don't buy it for a second Dead Dad's Son Honest True wants to learn how to shoot to protect his family and town. He wants to learn to shoot Rick. Carl too, but he'll settle for either one. I was expecting he was going to try to push Rick off the wall into the swarm.
Carl was being his Stupid self wanting to go after Enid. I also don't fully buy it he was convinced not to by Dead Dad's Son. I'll accept he didn't do it off camera, but he still wants to and will find a way. To be fair Maggie wanting to go after Glenn was also a stupid thing to do. She long since failed her Kick-Ass Girl audition, but she's still a Sidekick. One error in judgment doesn't make you a Stupid, and she did learn from it. Carl has a long history.
Psyren
2015-11-09, 12:21 AM
I just had one question about this filler episode:
Where the hell is Carol? What is she doing while Alexandrian idiots are raiding the food stores and Maggie is being suicidal?
And I agree on the kid, I have zero trust there.
BannedInSchool
2015-11-09, 09:41 AM
Son of Porch **** carries on his legacy, yes. :smalltongue:
Callos_DeTerran
2015-11-09, 01:12 PM
I don't think S5 went downhill at all. Finding Alexandria was a great development. I'm just... hoping they do something with this base beyond "the world sucks and innocent people will keep dying."
So much this. I don't think S5 has been particularly good so far, but it hasn't been bad either. I just want something, anything good to happen and have it stick cause I'm beginning to suffer from a serious case of Darkness Induced Viewer Apathy right now.
And ditto on Carol, she is my favorite character atm, even surpassing Michonne.
I will say this, I don't particularly like Carol as a character, but she has had some phenomenal character development throughout the series. I don't see a reason to care about her survival due to where her character is currently at, but I can definitely appreciate the journey it has taken and the skill involved in writing it.
Psyren
2015-11-09, 01:31 PM
I think there's hope ahead. The scene where
Deanna feverishly grabbed her late husband's plans and started sketching out where various enhancements to the town would go was pretty cool. It showed how much fight was in her yet. Deanna reminded me of Janeway's strength in many ways and I definitely got shades of it then.
She just needs to learn how to stab walkers properly, like, yesterday :smallsigh:
BannedInSchool
2015-11-09, 01:47 PM
I think there's hope ahead.
The Alexandrians accepting that the world really is that bad and the crazy people were right is progress. They're not all progressing in exactly positive ways, but being not quite so stupid is better. Maybe we'll leave Alexandria with some plausible hope that the survivors can carry on.
Psyren
2015-11-09, 02:08 PM
Given last night's revelation that
Maggie is pregnant,
I don't think leaving Alexandria is an option for the foreseeable future. This was the entire driving force behind the prison in S3 after all, and even though that didn't work out very well in the end (thanks largely to the local despot), being on the road would have been even less feasible for all concerned.
Eldritch Horror
2015-11-09, 07:08 PM
As convoluted and hard to follow as season six has been with all the flash backs it's still head and shoulders above season two and that dang farm.
So much this. I don't think S5 has been particularly good so far, but it hasn't been bad either. I just want something, anything good to happen and have it stick cause I'm beginning to suffer from a serious case of Darkness Induced Viewer Apathy right now.
I can relate to that. It's why I stopped watching "Defiance". It hasn't affected this show for me yet, but I think it's because I had the cushion of having read the comic. I've only read up to Alexandria and talk of alliance with another town, the end of the Big Volume 2, so I roughly knew what was happening and going to happen. We'll see if it's enough now that I'm entering storylines for which I have no reference.
Bowerbird
2015-11-10, 11:24 AM
As convoluted and hard to follow as season six has been with all the flash backs it's still head and shoulders above season two and that dang farm.
I don't think it's been hard to follow at all, the flashback sections have been clearly articulated: black-and-white vs colour to help with viewer comprehension, the intro given to the flashback episode as being a story. None of it felt too unnecessary, I mean they're not perfect but I think they were a good way of getting the story across without just lazily going along in chronological order. Say what you will about the content, but the actual story itself hasn't been hard to follow at all. It actually annoys me that some people find even this basic kind of non-linear storytelling hard to follow, because it discourages writers from coming up with more creative ways of telling their story, ways that might turn out to be more exciting or enthralling. I'm not saying flashbacks are always good, it depends on how they're used, and I think they've done a pretty good job so far.
I do however agree with you about pretty much the entirety of season 2, I spent the whole time wishing the clouds would open up Monty Python-style for cartoon God to yell at them to just "Get on with it!"
StLordeth
2015-11-12, 02:52 AM
Yes, agree'd with the poster above me.
Because of the popularity and the showrunners knowing that they will have many more seasons to come - they are slowing down this season a bit and getting more into the character development for certain individuals this season before the soon to be Saviors plot that will be likely very fast paced (and likely knock off a few big names as well).
Also, we're only 6 episodes in.
ryuplaneswalker
2015-11-12, 06:01 AM
The farm did not bug me so much because it was different from season 1 which was alot of wandering the show would be a lot more tolerable this season if it didn't instantly go to "Crap hits the fan instantly and we can't keep a sense of stability for more than one episode and let the characters actually develop"
I've also read elsewhere of people complaining about slowness, nothing happening, not enough gore, season 2, etc.
I, however, like the slowness, the drama happening, don't always need gore, season 2, etc. It's a television series, not a movie. In movies they have a relatively short time to tell the story so the plot moves along at a rapid pace. That is what everyone is used to in a zombie apocalypse. In a movie, a character is introduced and eaten 20 minutes later. On a tv series, that same character could be eaten 5 episodes later.
Psyren
2015-11-12, 02:15 PM
I didn't mind S2 either. And Shane's fall to the dark side in particular was very compelling, I thought he was an excellent villain. Not as good as the Governor, but way more interesting than those nobodies from Terminus.
SaintRidley
2015-11-12, 02:27 PM
Season 2's big problem was the perceived pacing when it was airing one episode at a time. When every episode lingered for a week (or more) before the next, making the farm feel like it took forever. Season 2 holds up better on Netflix or Blu-Ray than it did during its original run airing.
Psyren
2015-11-12, 02:54 PM
Season 2's big problem was the perceived pacing when it was airing one episode at a time. When every episode lingered for a week (or more) before the next, making the farm feel like it took forever. Season 2 holds up better on Netflix or Blu-Ray than it did during its original run airing.
That's a fair criticism. I binged it on Netflix so the pacing issues would have been much less pronounced. I can see some of the same frustrations being leveled at this season due to the coyness around you-know-who's fate.
That's a fair criticism. I binged it on Netflix so the pacing issues would have been much less pronounced. I can see some of the same frustrations being leveled at this season due to the coyness around you-know-who's fate.
Oh, we're back to talking about "Harry Potter"?
Psyren
2015-11-13, 10:12 AM
Oh, we're back to talking about "Harry Potter"?
Well, there were quite a lot of Inferi :smallbiggrin:
Psyren
2015-11-16, 02:15 AM
Ugh, this basically IS Season 2 all over again, from the meandering plot to the rampant hookups and impending love triangle drama.
They're in great risk of losing the fan base if they do not tell us Glenn's fate already.
Interesting Abraham showed no remorse when his girlfriend got eaten and is so quick to move on to Sasha. I suppose it's all about his suicide tendencies. He was going to until Eugene's lie gave him a purpose. With the lie exposed he has the inclination again only he wants the zombie version of "suicide by cop". He also had a point. Sasha did not immediate say no or show any kind of revulsion at his overture.
Daryl is a Hero alright. Such a softee. Good for him, but he needs to learn to be more careful around Stupids. Because of off camera pre-show stuff the Stupid Trio had reason to mistrust him. Fair enough. Daryl going back to give them the insulin was the Heroic thing to do. He should have been more on his guard when one of them willing went to the corpse to mourn only to get bit. It's probably meta for us to know the Trio, now Duo, should have trusted Daryl, but there was in story plausibility why they should have. Instead they gave in to their Stupidity. It took Deus Ex Machina to help Daryl reunite with Abraham and Sasha.
Darn typos.
Shekinah
2015-11-16, 02:59 PM
Ugh, this basically IS Season 2 all over again, from the meandering plot to the rampant hookups and impending love triangle drama.
While I liked season 2, I'm waiting for this season to pick up a bit before I start marathoning it on Google. I wasn't fond of the pacing of the first episode, and afraid that the next ones would be like that, I gave watching them a pass. Now I'm super busy and can't get into the show right now. Maybe I'll wait until a certain someone's fate is resolved.
Psyren
2015-11-16, 03:48 PM
They're in great risk of losing the fan base if they do not tell us {redacted} fate already.
Scuttlebutt says
that was Glenn's voice on the radio at the end asking for help, and he did still have a radio on him when he was with Mr. Worthless.
Interesting Abraham showed no remorse when his girlfriend got eaten and is so quick to move on to Sasha. I suppose it's all about his suicide tendencies. He was going to until Eugene's lie gave him a purpose. With the lie exposed he has the inclination again only he wants the zombie version of "suicide by cop". He also had a point. Sasha did not immediate say no or show any kind of revulsion at his overture.
See, this is actually a relationship I can buy:
they both suffered devastating losses - Sasha of her brother/sister-in-law/bf, Abraham of his wife/children/dream to be a hero - and they both ended up borderline suicidal towards the hordes to cope with it. Sasha was dragged out of her funk by Michonne, and then did the same for him. I can see how they'd bond over it, though friendship would make a whole hell of a lot more sense than lust (see below.)
However, the complication you're forgetting is that
his current paramour, Rosita, hasn't been eaten - she's still very much alive and is about to be tossed aside rather unceremoniously for Sasha. What that will do to her, and to the increasingly fragile situation inside Alexandria, is anyone's guess - but if prior love triangles on the show are any indication, the answer will be "nothing good."
Daryl is a Hero alright. Such a softee. Good for him, but he needs to learn to be more careful around Stupids. Because of off camera pre-show stuff the Stupid Trio had reason to mistrust him. Fare enough. Darly going back to give them the insulin was the Heroic thing to do. He should have been more on his guard when one of them willing went to the corpse to mourn only to get bit. It's probably meta for us to know the Trio, now Duo, should have trusted Daryl, but there was in story plausibility why they should have. Instead they gave in to their Stupidity. It took Deus Ex Machina to help Daryl reunite with Abraham and Sasha.
Daryl's dramatic arc every season seems to be losing his crossbow somewhere and us wondering when he'll get it back. Bonnie and Clyde are definitely Stupids, and unfortunately I have a feeling we'll be seeing more of them.
Psyren
2015-11-23, 01:24 AM
Lots of questions answered this week! And a nice juicy cliffhanger. Best episode so far, other than Morgan's story.
Glenn is alive. Yay, I guess. His survival isn't quite so Deus Ex Machina, but it is "how convenient".
Nice scene of Rick, Michonne, and Carol talking to Morgan. The Hero and Kick-A$$ Women are trying to stop a Cool Guy from becoming a Stupid. Carol catches him in his secret of holding a Wolf. It's a question whether it becomes a factor dealing with the wall breach or something to be resolved in the second half of the season next year.
I am shocked, shocked Dead Dad's Son stalked Carl to shoot him. When the scene went to Michonne looking at the Town Leader's expansion plans you'd expect she'd see the stalking and do something, but instead it's the wall breach. Interesting we only see Carl just as the wall was breached. That leads to speculation in the second half we'll get a flashback scene of Carl confronting Dead Dad's Son and killing him just before it. We did not hear a gun shot, but that's not proof one way or another.
Enid clarified her nature. She's worse than a Stupid. She's Catatonic Girl, what Carol was first season. Think Barbara in Night of the Living Dead. Catatonic Girl is a Stupid but one who has surrendered into herself. Stupids can ruin Plans, but at least they try to help. It's possible for a Plan to work despite them or partially work which gets the Cool Guy eaten by his noble sacrifice. Catatonic Girls don't even try. They don't do anything. They are a useless waste of space. It's always been a female character, but Eugene has made his case to demote himself from Stupid to the first Catatonic Boy I've seen in a zombie apocalypse.
Psyren
2015-11-23, 10:22 AM
I agree 100% on Morgan, but you contradicted yourself a bit there too:
You said a Catatonic is worse than a Stupid, yet the catatonic is able to help. Personally I'd say the Stupid is worse. Catatonics (actually I'll change that name to "Traumas") simply suffered a big shock or ongoing fatalism, convinced that the world is screwed no matter what they do and willing to give up. Yet they can save the day if you get them out of their shell. Beth was one of these, and Abraham vacillates between this and being competent. Sasha was this briefly as well, which explains their burgeoning romance and will absolutely cause no trouble back in Alexandria with Rosita whatsoever, I'm sure.
A Stupid though is always a Stupid, and the only question is whether they will go out by themselves or get non-Stupids killed along with them. Nicholas is a prime example, and he almost killed not one but two non-Stupids (Noah and thankfully not Glenn.) That pastor guy is also a Stupid, with only time to tell how much of one.
I agree 100% on Morgan, but you contradicted yourself a bit there too:
You said a Catatonic is worse than a Stupid, yet the catatonic is able to help. Personally I'd say the Stupid is worse. Catatonics (actually I'll change that name to "Traumas") simply suffered a big shock or ongoing fatalism, convinced that the world is screwed no matter what they do and willing to give up. Yet they can save the day if you get them out of their shell. Beth was one of these, and Abraham vacillates between this and being competent. Sasha was this briefly as well, which explains their burgeoning romance and will absolutely cause no trouble back in Alexandria with Rosita whatsoever, I'm sure.
A Stupid though is always a Stupid, and the only question is whether they will go out by themselves or get non-Stupids killed along with them. Nicholas is a prime example, and he almost killed not one but two non-Stupids (Noah and thankfully not Glenn.) That pastor guy is also a Stupid, with only time to tell how much of one.
In a movie a character almost always remains who he/she is. A Stupid is always a Stupid. A Jerk is always a Jerk. A Hero is always a Hero. For a character to change type it would be at the climax where the bad ones - Stupid, Jerk, Evil Bastard Leader, etc. suddenly has a change of heart/spark of courage and makes a noble sacrifice of his/her life to save the Group. It could happen, just not often enough to remark. Walking Dead is unique in that it's an ongoing several seasons worth of television. Characters can stick around for a long time. Cool Guys don't necessarily get eaten. As such, character types can change because of the general case of character growth in any tv drama/action series. See Daisy and Ward in Agents of Shield. :smallsmile: Carol was a "Trauma" Girl who grew into Kick-A$$ Woman. Beth grew into Side-Kick. Daryl was able to grow from Cool Guy to Hero. Also new is having more than one Hero in a zombie apocalypse. Note in the comic character types don't change. Carol was always Trauma Girl, never to become Kick-A$$ Woman. Andrea was always Kick-A$$ Woman, never to be a Stupid. That's not a knock against the comic, just noting it follows the zombie apocalypse tropes*.
*I'll allow for something I'm forgetting as it's been awhile since I read it and I've only read it as the Big Volumes 1 & 2.
Psyren
2015-11-23, 01:53 PM
And that I feel is a definite strength of the show - the character development. Glenn went from pizza-delivery boy to being a badass operative and even leader in some cases. Maggie's growth has been remarkable and she was an excellent choice to work with/stabilize Deanna. Carol is a damn green beret at this point. Morgan is... well, I'm hoping he comes around, this is just not a setting for lofty pacifist ideals. At least he said "I don't know" during the questioning.
You're right though, the Stupids definitely tend to stay Stupid. I have no hope for that preacher of ever truly realizing the situation he's in until it's too late. And Ron... Ron just needs to die, the sooner the better, and it's kinda sad that I feel so few qualms saying that about a child. But only kinda.
Eugene I don't think was ever truly stupid. He's done some heroic things, like saving Glenn from Nicholas' treachery. I have hopes that he'll come around fully.
Shekinah
2015-11-23, 09:15 PM
Sounds like the show is picking up! I'll be sure to watch once I have the time.
Psyren
2015-11-24, 09:29 AM
It is - and it took them long enough.
Concerning Carol and monsters:
Her conversation with Sam was really interesting. "Killing is the only way to keep from becoming a monster." As far as Carol is concerned, the real monsters are the Walkers and the folks (like the Wolves) who would prey on the innocent. She just doesn't see herself as one despite her bodycount and ruthlessness. And I think a lot of people watching the show would agree.
She does appear to be having a slight crisis of conscience, but not enough of one to stop calling Morgan out on his bull.
It is - and it took them long enough.
Concerning Carol and monsters:
Her conversation with Sam was really interesting. "Killing is the only way to keep from becoming a monster." As far as Carol is concerned, the real monsters are the Walkers and the folks (like the Wolves) who would prey on the innocent. She just doesn't see herself as one despite her bodycount and ruthlessness. And I think a lot of people watching the show would agree.
She does appear to be having a slight crisis of conscience, but not enough of one to stop calling Morgan out on his bull.
Sam meant the walkers when he talked about monsters, but I saw Carol talking about living people, especially considering the girl she killed.
Psyren
2015-11-24, 12:38 PM
Sam meant the walkers when he talked about monsters, but I saw Carol talking about living people, especially considering the girl she killed.
I honestly think Carol meant both; she sees both as equally worthy of destruction. Wolves and Walkers are both monsters in her eyes and quite simply don't need to be in this plane of existence. And killing them is the only way to keep from becoming them, either one.
Dead Dad's Son and Carl did not have a confrontation off camera. Fine. However, since Dead Dad's Son is a Stupid he has to ruin The Plan. He does this by confronting Carl when they're trapped in the house and supposed to be quiet. Their fight causes a lot of noise attracting the walkers to break into their hideout house. Way to go, Stupid!
Speaking of, I'm calling it. I'm officially demoting Morgan from Cool Guy to Stupid. Because of him the Wolf gets away. I appreciate the Wolf didn't kill anyone, just taking a hostage, but it's the same end result. Naturally he'll escape walker-occupied Alexandria to instigate Trouble in the second half of the season with Neegan.
Interesting to see Eugene being the one who answered "help" to Daryl's radio call. Also interesting they did not have Daryl arrive at the end of the episode to Deus Ex Machina save the town.
Stupid Priest shows his hand to Rick. Rick knows it already. They're long since done with each other.
Dead Dad's Younger Son is Trauma Boy. Trauma Boy/Girl is a subset of Stupid. Naturally he has to ruin The Plan. He calls out "Mom" as they're walking away from the house after being told they need to remain quiet. We'll have to wait till the second half season starts to see the result.
This episode was all about The Stupids.
Psyren
2015-11-30, 09:51 AM
I agree with Morgan's demotion. Kinda sad really, especially now that it means there have been no decent POC on the show (well, male ones - Michonne and Sasha still kick ass) since T-Dog.
I also agree with your assessment of the episode, it was a Stupid Parade of Stupid Stupids.
I mean, really Rosita? You're a crack shot! These people train for headshots day and night, at longer ranges, and Denise was a head shorter than the Wolf guy! :smallfurious:
Bowerbird
2015-11-30, 01:11 PM
Speaking of, I'm calling it. I'm officially demoting Morgan from Cool Guy to Stupid. Because of him the Wolf gets away. I appreciate the Wolf didn't kill anyone, just taking a hostage, but it's the same end result. Naturally he'll escape walker-occupied Alexandria to instigate Trouble in the second half of the season with Neegan.
I'm sorry, but if Morgan's going on the Stupid list, I'm going to have to insist we add Carol too, except higher on the list. None of that would have happened if she didn't have a hard-on for killing the Wolf. The entire time all I can think is: For god's sake people you have a prisoner, prisoners are useful for all sorts of things! He could tell you how many others there are, where they might be, why they attacked, if they're likely to do it again, all impossible to know with a dead prisoner.
Stupid Priest shows his hand to Rick. Rick knows it already. They're long since done with each other.
Not sure what you're getting at here, Priest seemed to acquit himself relatively well given the circumstances...
Psyren
2015-11-30, 04:54 PM
I'm sorry, but if Morgan's going on the Stupid list, I'm going to have to insist we add Carol too, except higher on the list. None of that would have happened if she didn't have a hard-on for killing the Wolf. The entire time all I can think is: For god's sake people you have a prisoner, prisoners are useful for all sorts of things! He could tell you how many others there are, where they might be, why they attacked, if they're likely to do it again, all impossible to know with a dead prisoner.
No. He wouldn't have done any of that unless tortured, and likely not even then. He was a waste of supplies, a waste of oxygen, and most damningly, a waste of time - plain and simple.
If killing him is unpalatable, throw him outside the walls with the clothes on his back - or after the tower came down, toss him out into the horde (at gunpoint, so he doesn't try to hide elsewhere in town) in the direction of the breach so he has a slim chance to run past them and maybe pull some after him. Make him marginally useful. What you don't do is coddle someone who has made his intention to continue killing innocent people for funsies abundantly clear.
Bowerbird
2015-11-30, 09:31 PM
No. He wouldn't have done any of that unless tortured, and likely not even then. He was a waste of supplies, a waste of oxygen, and most damningly, a waste of time - plain and simple.
If killing him is unpalatable, throw him outside the walls with the clothes on his back - or after the tower came down, toss him out into the horde (at gunpoint, so he doesn't try to hide elsewhere in town) in the direction of the breach so he has a slim chance to run past them and maybe pull some after him. Make him marginally useful. What you don't do is coddle someone who has made his intention to continue killing innocent people for funsies abundantly clear.
Honestly, you don't know until you try. I'm not saying you don't kill him, I'm saying you kill him after you exhaust his potential to be useful. While he's alive there's a possibility of getting all this information, dead he's just meat. Morgan had a point when he said "Can't this wait until a better time?" At that stage he was wasting nothing, he was locked up in a cell, tied up, I fail to see what her tearing hurry was. What also bothers me is that nobody tried to understand them, I mean he starts to explain their philosophy, "We were setting you free," and everyone just went, "Oh this one's crazy," and while they're right it might serve to actually ask the crazy man questions to understand the enemy...
Carol did do something stupid, but it wasn't wanting to kill the Wolf. It was turning off the light alerting Morgan. She already faked him out. All she had to do was just leave. By the time Morgan found out the ruse and got there she would have killed the Wolf already. Doing one stupid thing doesn't make you a Stupid. Carol long since earned the right to have a mistake she makes just be a mistake.
The Priest said if something goes wrong he's not turning back to help. Rick is not counting on him for anything, having already flat out denied his help in leading the herd away in the Original Plan several episodes ago. The Priest has potential to turn into a Jerk if the writers just gave him more stuff to say and do, but even then he lacks the competency required. It would take dedicated on camera scenes showing his transformation which they're not going to do. The character is not important enough. He would have made a natural ally of Morgan if they had bothered to do anything with him.
Bowerbird
2015-12-01, 02:17 AM
I'm not saying wanting to kill the Wolf was stupid, wanting to kill the Wolf immediately was being stupid. I'm saying this as someone whose seen Carol's side in almost everything up to this point. There was a time and a place for deciding what to do with the Wolf, and right there and then was not it. Granted it's consistent with her mentality of fixing things before they become a problem for other people, so I can maybe understand why, but I would have thought she had more sense than that. As to the light thing, Morgan was constantly watching the stairs, not a lot else to do, she saw an opportunity to get down there and she took it. My initial point however is that the Wolf being loose is just as much, if not more, Carol's fault as it is Morgan's.
I missed that little interaction with the Priest, makes sense though. At least he's forthright enough to outright say it beforehand, time will tell if he was more trying to convince himself or Rick though. I can see him guilting himself into saving someone at the cost of his own life and surprising everyone, but wouldn't be surprised if he doesn't.
Psyren
2015-12-01, 09:50 AM
Honestly, you don't know until you try. I'm not saying you don't kill him, I'm saying you kill him after you exhaust his potential to be useful. While he's alive there's a possibility of getting all this information, dead he's just meat. Morgan had a point when he said "Can't this wait until a better time?" At that stage he was wasting nothing, he was locked up in a cell, tied up, I fail to see what her tearing hurry was. What also bothers me is that nobody tried to understand them, I mean he starts to explain their philosophy, "We were setting you free," and everyone just went, "Oh this one's crazy," and while they're right it might serve to actually ask the crazy man questions to understand the enemy...
Even if I agree that was the wrong moment to kill him (which I don't - if anything, the horde coming in made him even more of a liability), it was damn sure the wrong moment to restore his strength too. That was more Denise being a Stupid than Morgan, but it was still stupidity.
As for the Wolf being loose, I put far more blame on Rosita, who has managed plenty of headshots at that range. Tara I can understand being all emotional for her girlfriend/less of a combatant and not wanting to risk a shot, but Rosita gets no pass from me.
Bowerbird
2015-12-01, 10:49 AM
Even if I agree that was the wrong moment to kill him (which I don't - if anything, the horde coming in made him even more of a liability), it was damn sure the wrong moment to restore his strength too. That was more Denise being a Stupid than Morgan, but it was still stupidity.
As for the Wolf being loose, I put far more blame on Rosita, who has managed plenty of headshots at that range. Tara I can understand being all emotional for her girlfriend/less of a combatant and not wanting to risk a shot, but Rosita gets no pass from me.
How much of a liability he'd be depends on how suicidal he is, since I think basically all he could do from his cell is attract walkers, and that's just as likely to get him killed. He did seem pretty crazy, dunno if he's that crazy though. Definitely agree about Rosita though, with her gun already trained on him he'd barely have time to react, and it's not like they train specifically for instant-kill headshots or anything...
Trying to use the Wolf to get information would be a Hero thing to do, either by his own idea or being convinced to do so by a Jerk or another Hero. Heroes and Jerks are the ones who come up with tactics. Kick-A$$ Women and Cool Guys just kick butt. They'll take independent action for the Honest True good of the Group, but they don't analyze or plan for the long term. Rick would have just killed him, but I could see Daryl going for the intel and is capable of convincing Rick to do so. (Clarification: Daryl is a Hero like Rick, not a Jerk.) Carol was quite in character just going for the kill.
MacGiolla
2015-12-01, 03:49 PM
Carol did do something stupid, but it wasn't wanting to kill the Wolf. It was turning off the light alerting Morgan. She already faked him out. All she had to do was just leave. By the time Morgan found out the ruse and got there she would have killed the Wolf already. Doing one stupid thing doesn't make you a Stupid. Carol long since earned the right to have a mistake she makes just be a mistake.
The Priest said if something goes wrong he's not turning back to help. Rick is not counting on him for anything, having already flat out denied his help in leading the herd away in the Original Plan several episodes ago. The Priest has potential to turn into a Jerk if the writers just gave him more stuff to say and do, but even then he lacks the competency required. It would take dedicated on camera scenes showing his transformation which they're not going to do. The character is not important enough. He would have made a natural ally of Morgan if they had bothered to do anything with him.
I may have missed it but the way I saw the interaction with the priest was he was volunteering to carry Judith and was saying that he would keep going no matter what happened. Which, in that context, I would see as a good thing, rather than being self absorbed. I might have seen it incorrectly though.
Psyren
2015-12-01, 05:18 PM
The interaction between Gabriel and Rick was "blink-and-you'll-miss-it" for me so I can't comment on that.
The one thing we haven't talked about much is Glenn and Enid, who look positioned to help Maggie. I'm not sure how though. Do they still have a helium tank?
Bowerbird
2015-12-02, 01:57 AM
The interaction between Gabriel and Rick was "blink-and-you'll-miss-it" for me so I can't comment on that.
The one thing we haven't talked about much is Glenn and Enid, who look positioned to help Maggie. I'm not sure how though. Do they still have a helium tank?
I had to go back and find that part myself. Looks like it, I'm wondering if the platform Maggie's on was looking like the Walkers could maybe break the supports through persistence, though the fortifications are supposed to be pretty strong.
I'm not sure what use a helium tank would be, but now I have this image in my head of holding down a Walker and forcing helium into it to make it's vocalizations high and squeaky...
Psyren
2015-12-02, 03:52 AM
I had to go back and find that part myself. Looks like it, I'm wondering if the platform Maggie's on was looking like the Walkers could maybe break the supports through persistence, though the fortifications are supposed to be pretty strong.
I'm not sure what use a helium tank would be, but now I have this image in my head of holding down a Walker and forcing helium into it to make it's vocalizations high and squeaky...
Obviously, they use it to fly up there and retrieve her :smallbiggrin:
Kidding aside, I was thinking they could rupture one of the tanks and create a walker-distracting bang if the contents are under pressure. That or loudly pop a cluster of balloons.
ryuplaneswalker
2015-12-02, 08:44 AM
Back to step 1 of the treadmill! WHOO!
I haven't read Neegan's debut in the comic.
In the preview for season 6 part 2 Neegan makes his on camera face debut. He's the pinnacle of the Donkey Cavity Who Just Has To Ruin It All. A villain whose sole purpose is just to exist to cause conflict for the Group to deal with. I hate this character type. It adds nothing to a story. The Evil Bastard Leader of the Safe Haven Community and the Jerk at least provide interesting drama. Their plot points are logical. Seasons 1 & 2 would have been less interesting without Jerk Shane, and that's saying something for those who despise Season 2. Evil Bastard Governor was the catalyst that helped characters grow. Carol grew from Trauma Girl to Kick-A$$ Woman. Daryl grew from Cool Guy to Hero. Rick grew to learn to no longer tolerate Stupids and Jerks.
Donkey Cavities just destroy for destruction sake. We have the preview with the Wolves. Z-Nation has the Drug Kingpin. In the original Dawn of the Dead it was the Biker Gang.
In Gotham it's Galavan. :smallwink:
Psyren
2015-12-02, 03:25 PM
Donkey Cavities just destroy for destruction sake. We have the preview with the Wolves. Z-Nation has the Drug Kingpin. In the original Dawn of the Dead it was the Biker Gang.
In Gotham it's Galavan. :smallwink:
Also Gareth and his Terminus cannibals. They served no purpose but to kill Bob and get roflstomped by the heroes. No one changed or learned anything they didn't already know; if anything they made Tyreese dumber :smallsigh:
Dawn was an interesting antagonist though; she wasn't even really that evil, just a poor leader and too wiling to overlook what the real Jerks in her employ were doing.
Also Gareth and his Terminus cannibals. They served no purpose but to kill Bob and get roflstomped by the heroes. No one changed or learned anything they didn't already know; if anything they made Tyreese dumber :smallsigh:
Dawn was an interesting antagonist though; she wasn't even really that evil, just a poor leader and too wiling to overlook what the real Jerks in her employ were doing.
I don't see Terminus that way. I suppose I could label Gareth as the Evil Leader of the Safe Haven Community, but the entire Community is Evil. I accept Terminus as just being villains. The ones who made them Evil, the ones who took over when Terminus was Honest True, the guy in the train car, they were Donkey Cavities with respect to Terminus as The Group. When they got Terminus back they all became Jerks. With no Hero in the Group to stop them, they became Evil.
It's an interesting parallel that when the Group came to Alexandria, Rick teetered into becoming a Jerk to take over the town and then become Evil Leader. After the Governor and Terminus, it wasn't worth being Hero any more. It was Deanna, Honest True Leader of the Safe Haven Community, who saved him. She did it by taking his side. She saw that while Rick wasn't the leader the townspeople wanted, he was the one they needed. He wanted a war to take over. He never got it because Alexandria surrendered. The Group did not join Alexandria. Alexandria joined The Group.
Psyren
2015-12-03, 11:51 AM
I don't see Terminus that way. I suppose I could label Gareth as the Evil Leader of the Safe Haven Community, but the entire Community is Evil. I accept Terminus as just being villains. The ones who made them Evil, the ones who took over when Terminus was Honest True, the guy in the train car, they were Donkey Cavities with respect to Terminus as The Group. When they got Terminus back they all became Jerks. With no Hero in the Group to stop them, they became Evil.
I'm sympathetic to their origins but they still served no real purpose in the show beyond shock value. And cannibalism in general is stupid for a variety of reasons, most notably prions (i.e. the human version of Mad Cow, kuru, not to mention various blood-borne ailments.)
It's an interesting parallel that when the Group came to Alexandria, Rick teetered into becoming a Jerk to take over the town and then become Evil Leader. After the Governor and Terminus, it wasn't worth being Hero any more. It was Deanna, Honest True Leader of the Safe Haven Community, who saved him. She did it by taking his side. She saw that while Rick wasn't the leader the townspeople wanted, he was the one they needed. He wanted a war to take over. He never got it because Alexandria surrendered. The Group did not join Alexandria. Alexandria joined The Group.
This I agree with 100% and it's one of the reasons I liked Deanna so much. She might have been inept at fighting Walkers but she was a pretty fast learner once the Real World came knocking at her gates.
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