A Herald-like Class (or Template or Something)

[jqavins]

The new class thread about the Officer of the Crown (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?393735-Officer-of-the-Crown-need-ideas-WIP&highlight=Officer+of+the+Crown) has go me going on a tangential notion, and I’m looking for ideas. I want to do a class that is based on some but not all of the ideas of Mercedes Lackey’s Heralds of Valdamar. I want a class that fills these rolls:


Eyes, ears, and mouth of the crown and spreader of news throughout the land.
Itinerant law officer who acts mainly where there is no local jurisdiction. Where there are local lawmen, he generally cooperates with them, but technically outranks them; he just doesn’t pull rank when he doesn’t have to.
Circuit judge (again, outranking local judges if there are any and again not pulling rank if she doesn’t have to.)
Formidable combatant, though not quite Fighter.
All around troubleshooter, including some limited crown authority.
Ambassador.
Spy.
As a class, near universally recognized and trusted (within their home kingdom.) That is, they wear some kind of prominent badge or device (not necessarily white uniforms) which pretty much everyone recognizes and most of the ordinary people are happy to see.

This is mostly an NPC class, but whenever a class is described as NPC only there's always someone (like me) who wants to test it by playing one.

There are other features of Valdamar’s Heralds that I don’t want here; if I used them then I’d be making a whole Valdamar-inspired setting including some new mechanics, which is not necessarily a bad idea, but is not what I’m after. If you don’t know Valdamar then you’d have no reason to expect these, but for those who do know Valdamar, here are the things I don’t want:


Companions.
Everyone’s a psionic.
Everyone’s absolutely trustworthy and incorruptible.
Three quarters of them were abused or misunderstood children.:smallwink:

There are three Valdamar features I’m unsure whether to have or not:


A magical method of selecting these people to assure that they are worthy of the authority. If there is one, I don’t know how it should be done.
Years of formal training and apprenticeship. Especially if there is not a magical selection, there must be some way of assuring that these people are trustworthy and good (if not absolutely and incorruptibly so) and some training in the law. So if not years then months.
A spell-like ability to detect lies and/or compel truth.

Class features are yet to be determined.

I'm leaning toward yes on the truth spell. Detecting lies at 1st level, compelling literal truthful answers at some point later, and compelling full, complete answers as a capstone ability.
The limited crown authority needs to be codified, and class abilities are probably a good way to do this. A royal credit line that increases with level? Ability to issue decrees of increasing gravity. Even the ability to make provisional international agreements at high level. Of course, anything the character does along these lines is subject to subsequent review by his/her superiors, and misuse will be punished.

And finally, for now, I’m grappling with this: Should this be a full base class, a prestige class, or a five to ten level “semi-class,” i.e. like a prestige class but available at first level. I don’t think it’s a full base class, but I keep waffling between the other two. Or maybe a template. Or something.

[Milo v3]

This should probably be in the Homebrew section rather than world-building.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

The problem is that what you are describing isn't a PrC, or even a suite of PrC's. What you are talking about is various different multiclass options for different tasks that all wear the same badge for RP reasons.

Heck, even in the Valdamar series, there's very little from Herald to Herald, save the Companion (which you don't like), the Gifts (which also vary tremendously in power and ability and you said you didn't want), and the badge.

Honestly, the absolute trustworthiness and integrity I always thought of as a side-effect of being mindlinked and inextricably bound to a being of literal divine origin. Who have proven themselves on more than one occasion to be busybodies not above selective (or even not-so-selective on a national level) mindwipe to ensure that Good is done.

Mechanically, there's zero class abilities involved in what you want. No one class can fill all those roles, and honestly, not every Herald was suited to every task that Heralds perform. The only thing in common with the roles you have determined is that they are all under Crown authority, which is purely an RP aspect. So everyone treats someone with a Badge with utmost respect. That's not mechanics, that's RP. And that's really not something you want a player to have, either.

Stat them up how you like with currently existing classes and slap a fancy outfit or badge on them. Done.

[jqavins]

This should probably be in the Homebrew section rather than world-building.
Quite right. I'm so used to posting in World Building that it's automatic, but I'll ask that this be moved.
EDIT: Request sent.

The problem is that what you are describing isn't a PrC, or even a suite of PrC's. What you are talking about is various different multiclass options for different tasks that all wear the same badge for RP reasons.
I see your point with regard to what I've got so far, but that's why I want more, and am looking for input as to what more they need.

Honestly, the absolute trustworthiness and integrity I always thought of as a side-effect of being mindlinked and inextricably bound to a being of literal divine origin.
I always took it mostly to be a selection criterion before the companion makes that connection, merely strengthened by the companion from basically incorruptible to completely so, reinforcement that is only relevant in very rare circumstances. But this is a digression.

Mechanically, there's zero class abilities involved in what you want.In what I've got so far, that's true. In what I want, it's not. That's why I need help.

No one class can fill all those roles, and honestly, not every Herald was suited to every task that Heralds perform.No one character can, but a class could offer options that help make individual builds better suited to one (or two) of them.

The only thing in common with the roles you have determined is that they are all under Crown authority, which is purely an RP aspect.Only until Crown Authority is quantified and codified; then it's a class feature.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Only until Crown Authority is quantified and codified; then it's a class feature.

This is a very bad idea. This is not a topic that should be quantified and codified. This is basically free unlimited Charm Person or perhaps Dominate effect. This is horribly and rampantly open to abuse by PC's and simply cannot function appropriately. Even if it is merely a bonus to a Diplomacy check... need I try to explain why Diplomancy is already broken enough without breaking it more?

What you are probably looking for is less of a template, at least as we define the term as something stacked on top of an existing build, and more of a format of how certain builds are created. For example, it can be reasonably extrapolated that anyone who has the Badge is going to have Knowledge (Law) as a skill they have capped, because they all know the law backwards and forwards because they are integral in upholding it.

How about this:

* NPC's in this group use the Elite rather than Normal stat suite
* NPC's in this group tend to be higher leveled than the average
* NPC's in this group will always have Knowledge (Law) as a skill they have invested points into.

There's really nothing else that can, or should, be codified with the type of broad streak you are looking to paint. Not even Factotum/Chameleon is as broad-reaching.

Any mechanic can be abused or used in a manner not originally intended by the creator. As the number of mechanics your players have access to increase, the number of potential exploits increases exponentially.

To clarify, I'm not trying to say that what you have so far is not mechanics, I'm saying the concept in general is not one that mechanics are equipped to define. Your answer is neither 'yes' or 'no', but 'mu'.

[Everyl]

If you did want to make this a base class, you're overthinking it. Mercedes Lackey's Heralds are basically just a setting-specific Paladin variant with open multiclassing. Valdemar has a state religion, and Heralds are that religion's holy knights, for all intents and purposes. Just massage the details of the Paladin class into what you want for your traveling, truth-detecting law-warriors. I don't know which edition/system you're using, so I can't really offer much by way of suggestions in how to do so, beyond that multiclassing should be unrestricted or the characters would never be able to cover the range of social roles you're hoping for.

If you want to create mechanics for "Crown Authority" but keep them entirely separate from class, then things get kind of messy. You're creating a system of mechanical benefits and potentially-useful character abilities that are difficult or impossible to balance against other mechanics. It's a bit like the 3.X Leadership feat - depending on the player(s) and the GM, it could be anywhere from utterly useless to one of the most powerful mechanics available to the player characters.

If you follow the advice of some other forumites and avoid creating mechanical rules for a character's social role, then all you need is a minor magic item that serves as a symbol of office. A badge, uniform, or other obvious object that can be invoked to cast something like Detect Lies or Zone of Truth would be fine, especially if it were enchanted to only work for its proper owner. It might grant bonuses on social rolls among those who respect the authority it represents, as well.

[Corneel]

If (prestige) class doesn't work, maybe a chain/group of feats with some of the prerequisites more on the fluff/RP side?

[sktarq]

Actually-though I've never heard of this Lackey fellow or her? Heralds it sounds like some variant lawful bard more than anything. Perhaps focus on Perform (oratory) or look for alternates for bardic singing in the Unearthed arcana lines.

Actually it's as if you have cored out a bard and stuff it over a paladin.

Also 3.5 DnD system?
Also as new base class, template, archtype, PrC etc how about you figure out what features you need to meet your vision and then figure out how much would need to be "new" to make it work in system.

[AceOfFools]

This is a very bad idea. This is not a topic that should be quantified and codified. This is basically free unlimited Charm Person or perhaps Dominate effect. This is horribly and rampantly open to abuse by PC's and simply cannot function appropriately. Even if it is merely a bonus to a Diplomacy check... need I try to explain why Diplomancy is already broken enough without breaking it more?


"Authority of the King cannot have mechanical benefits" is patently untrue.

Skill bonuses obviously work for one, but you can also just make it "By speaking you invoke your authority and all know with perfect accuracy your rank. This feeling is unmistakable, thus no knave can convince someone who has felt this authority that they are a herald with a mere bluff check."

I have no idea how well this ties into Lackey's Heralds of Valdamar, but Exalted has a number of authority effects that do things like:

Allow the casting of certain specific spells.
Required for the use of specific magic items (this sort of thing is even supported by DnD 3.5, e.g. holy avenger).
Immunity (or a bonus) to mental defenses (i.e. will saves) related to those over whom they have authority.
Ability to forbid or demand certain actions from beings lower in the hierarchy that grants you authority.
Authority to open locked doors, or bypass certain other hazards in sanctums over which they have authority.
Alter terrain by commanding spirits of the land, or equivalent.


Not all of these would work in the average DnD setting, but if your question is how do I build a world where "Absolute Authority" has mechanics beyond the implied social benefit there are plenty of options, even ignoring how many games have actual mechanics for social situations beyond simple, flat-DC skill checks.

[jqavins]

3.x, sorry. Or anything similar (which mostly means PF or course, but whatever you've got and I can adapt to what I end up playing.)

[sktarq]

two options I'm seeing-
A short 5 lvl PrC which focuses on Diplomatic Skills, with a Fighter-Like BAB, and a few spells of detect lies/zone of truth, with some "authority of the King" bonuses perhaps

A variant class-gives lots of room for expanded work but will have a tighter focus that will give a less varied outcome. Would probably be based of a Paladin stripping out divine aspects for law and order/rulership ones or stripping out music from the bard to increase martial ability.

a thing I'm wondering is how do you see a level one, fresh outa the gate first session Herald? can you have an inexperienced herald? could their be a "squire" like position that would work for the first couple of levels and only when they get a few levels can they be called a Herald and get the King's authority etc stuff that has been mentioned? Also a list of what you need in the character and what you would like in the characters would probably be a good idea-then when you see how much you NEED to squeeze in you know how big a change it is from prepublished material and you can figure out what you need to create.

a list of requirements/wants so far
Cleric or Better Attack Progression
Some Spell casting or spell like abilities (lesser caster (Bard/Paladin?Ranger progression))
No Psionic Requirements
Lawful Alignment?
"Respect" from the population-possibly spell like-possible a diplomacy/persuasion/intimidate bonus
Knowledge (Law) and/or Knowledge (Nobility) should probably be very high-class skill and possibly something to incentivize players to max it
The right to arrest, etc within the authority of the one they are Herald for
Skills/Spells that could presumably help with investigations and Spy work
Possibly a bonus in rebuffing manipulation or charm effect to make them seem incorruptible without it being impossible

EDIT: actually-why no psionics? Since a psiionic warrior may be a worthwhile base to look at.

[jqavins]

EDIT: actually-why no psionics? Since a psiionic warrior may be a worthwhile base to look at.
More later on the other stuff you've raised, but I want to give a quick clarification here. All of Valdamar's heralds are psionics, though their powers and strength vary greatly. What I meant in saying no psionics was only that this is not a part of what I'm trying to do here. (For a Valdamar-like game, sure, just not what I'm after for the moment.) I didn't mean that a character with psionic abilities from another class couldn't be one of these. So a psionic warrior from another class adding the things from this? Sure, sounds good.

[sktarq]

Well I bring it up because thinking about it with things like "detect lies" type effects - truth effects possible connections to whoever they are Herald of. . . good attack bonus . . . can edit the power list to come up the combination of buffing, spy themes, and detectives stuff to be thematically appropriate. Saves seem right. Also "everyone's psionic" is unclear. . . as in all members of the order in the book are psionic but you don't want to have this limitation in your version? If not psionics then why be okay giving them a presumably spell like ability of detect lies or zone of truth? All magic is okay but all psionic is not is a fine choice but if the source material is heavily psionic then I'd ask why.

perhaps a PrC that replaces the power list of any psionic warrior level and has them stack to fit you theme proper.

I am still not sure (actually I'm clueless) what you want the end result to look or feel like. Theme? internal variation? power source (internal? from what they are herald of?)? are they organized (and thus would benifit from being able to send msgs back HQ without people knowing and thus seeming far more badass than they are when really they just asked a functionary to check some files instead of mind reading)?

[jqavins]

Actually-though I've never heard of this Lackey fellow or her? Heralds it sounds like some variant lawful bard more than anything.
This is for the benefit of those who don't know the material I'm referring to. Those who do know Mercedes Lackey's heralds needn't read on. In fact, it's probably best if they don't read on, since disagreements with my interpretations and exceptions taken to my simplifications would undoubtedly lead to unnecessary digressions and maybe arguments. Whatever matters if interpretation we might disagree on will not be relevant to what I'm trying to create here anyway. I promise. Trust me.:smallsmile:

Also, I'll try not to give away anything uninitiated might not want to know, in case anybody has been made curious enough to pick up the books. (Start with Arrows of the Queen (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arrows_of_the_Queen), book one of the original Heralds of Valdemar trilogy.) But the collapsed section isn't called a spoiler for nothing.

To explain Heralds one must start with Companions. Companions look like horses (brilliant white horses with silvery pearlescent hooves and sapphire blue eyes) but are actually fully sentient magical beings of divine origin. Every Herald is psychically linked to a companion for life. Companions can carry a rider much farther and faster than a horse, and they are all capable of communicating telepathically with each other over very great (but not unlimited) distance.

It's the Companions that select those who will be Heralds. An unmatched Companion, upon reaching maturity, goes out on search, looking for someone, about 10 to 14 years old 99% of the time, who shows three key characteristics: Good alignment; a drive to help others; and one or more (usually latent) psionic abilities, which Valdemarans call Gifts or Mind Magic. At some times in history a magical aptitude may be present instead of or in addition to the psionics, but at the starting point in the series this is unknown, and true magic is believed to be myth. Needless to say, the Heralds don't really understand the true nature of the Companions.

The Companion Chooses the Herald-to-be, now known as a Herald trainee. The Choosing is the creation of the lifelong psychic link. Neither Herald nor Companion will bond again in the event that the other dies, with the exception of one special Companion that I need not go into.

The most common of the Gifts is telepathy. Most Heralds have strong enough telepathy to talk with their Companions. Other known Gifts include empathy, clairvoyance, object teleportation, and fire starting. Some Heralds' gifts are very strong, others barely usable, and others anywhere in between.

The trainee embarks on years of training, which includes history, law, fighting, comparative religion, wilderness survival, and development of their Gifts, among other things. Training is capped by a year long internship with a senior Herald in the field.

Most Herald's duty, most of the time, is riding circuit through an assigned part of the country. They spread news from the capital and gather news to bring back, settle disputes, respond to emergencies, hunt down criminals, and generally do what's needed to keep the peace ensure justice.

The last Herald-Mage, when he knew he was the last, created an enduring magical effect over the whole kingdom that allows all Heralds to invoke Truth Spell, which is the detect lies ability. Those whose Gift is strong enough can escalate to Zone of Truth. Since true magic is thought to be mythical, no one knows how this actually works.

They have the authority to commit crown funds and promise Crown action up to a point. Their actions in this regard are subject to review by more senior Heralds and the monarch him/herself. (The monarch, incidentally, must always be a Herald; if the heir apparent is not Chosen by a Companion, then a different heir must be found.)

In war, they are embedded with army units at C&C centers in order to use the Companions' telepathy. Some of them are important tactical weapons due to the Gifts, especially clairvoyants and strong fire starters, though the latter are very rare. When push comes to shove they are all capable fighters and the majority make capable commanders, but they will do this only if the regular army officers can't (e.g. if they are dead.) Their training and Gifts make many of them valuable as special forces.

Their academic training and crown authority make them suitable as diplomats. Their training and gifts make them good spies.

But, to be clear, not every Herald is well suited to all of these roles; it's just that when any of these roles is needed, you're liable to want a Herald - the right Herald - to fill it. Still, most Heralds, most of the time, just ride circuit.

As to the incorruptibility, it comes mostly from the things that the Companion looks for before Choosing his/her Herald. That and the constant presence of a very strong, unwavering confidant and friend (the Companion) are enough to make the Herald virtually immune to corrupting influences. It's rare that the Companion has to do more than tell a Herald as a friend that things don't look right to set the Herald back on course, though the Companions are capable of intervening more forcefully. Also, though I've said Heralds are "absolutely incorruptible" that is not completely, entirely, 100.0000% absolutely true. There have been very, very rare cases of a Herald going off the rails. In such a case, the Companion repudiates him/her. In the only case described in the books* the Companion then proceeded to sacrifice himself cleaning up the mess that the ex-Herald had made, and the Herald subsequently committed suicide.

* Well, I've only read 26 of the 31 books, so maybe there's another.

So, what I'm trying to do is leave out the Companions and leave out the universal psionics (but not disallow psionics) while keeping the training (which only takes as much time as level training) and the social roles and the spell-like ability of unknown origin. That would be translated into skill bonuses, a good BAB progression, favorable reactions from most of the populace in the home kingdom (but hostile reactions from many people in hostile neighboring countries,) a large credit line, and other social "powers," and a spell-like ability of as-yet undecided origin.

[sktarq]

okay I get leaving out the super horses-although leaving Ride and Handle Animal on the list of class skills would probably still be appropriate

as for the no-psionics rule I'm still not getting it for one basic reason. . . you seem to want them to have powers and those powers need a source. No having that source be magic would work fine but then everyone has magic powers and I don't see how that helps. Does magic powers fit better in your version, and if so why? Clarity, familiarity, and spells per day being more simple than a small list of psionic powers has a degree of merit but I could well argue the other side.

no psionic pre-reqs would be an angle I see as making sense but only for a PrC since base or variant classes have no prereqs anyway. . . at which point they are all magical or all psionic or all whatever as soon as they get powers/spells/ etc.

another option would to basically cut all spell like abilities out in toto. Give them major bonuses to reflect training etc so they have big bonus to sense motive, diplomacy, intimidate etc, plus the credit line, auto start friendly to neutral and good characters of the home nation, etc. Work the Extraordinary ability type as far as you can.

[jqavins]

The spell-like abilities do need a source, but what I'd like is these and only these abilities as related to this class. Once you give the class psionics or spells, then you get all the other psionic abilities and spells too. I could use a spell casting mechanic where the class spell list has only two spells on it, I suppose. The abilities I want could come from a magic item that is unique to the class members and requires a secret incantation to prevent stolen ones being used. Or a supernatural ability that is granted by some magical authority as aninitiation rite. Or some other bright idea that someone here might come up with.

(Actually, typing it out has suggested an answer, using the last two things I wrote. An iniation rite keys the magic item to its owner. That could work.)

[sktarq]

Do you want them to be able to loose the item?

If so then cool. But they could also be caught in the bath without it etc.

Another version could be an implant or tattoo. As much the diamond mark of imperial conditioning as anything else.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

"Authority of the King cannot have mechanical benefits" is patently untrue.Which is why I did not say 'cannot', I said 'should not', and I stand behind my statement. Can you? Sure. But you're going to regret it.

If these 'kingsmen' are NPC's, there is no point to it. If PC's can become them... well, that's a whole 'nother issue. I should think most GM's know better than to hand out secular authority to players by now, even without mechanical benefits to back it up. Start passing out class abilities such as are being bantered about... well, don't blame me if your players use them and abuse them and break your game in ways you did not foresee. That's kind of what players DO.

There's a reason the Enchantment college is seen as one of the most powerful, second to Conjuration and Abjuration primarily because so many things are immune to it. I have a hunch you're about to re-discover why.

When King's Authority is roleplay... it can be mitigated with roleplay. Once it becomes mechanics... it can and will be exploited as such.

[Everyl]

Do you want them to be able to loose the item?

If so then cool. But they could also be caught in the bath without it etc.

That's probably fine. Most GMs and players don't get upset at the possibility of wizards being caught without their component pouches, clerics without their holy symbols, or fighters without their swords, anyway.

And I originally suggested the personalized magic items in part because one of the OP items describing the class was a symbol or uniform that makes class members universally recognized. It makes sense to me to key the most supernatural and/or powerful class abilities to appropriately wearing/displaying that symbol. Whether the symbol is actually enchanted or just a tool used to channel a class ability depends mainly on how the GM wants to explain the origin of those powers.

[avr]

PF's Inquisitor class could fit well. They get bonuses to sense motive and later an ability to detect lies, they can be competent with other social skills and in a fight, and just the name implies some sort of investigator (though not as nice as Valdemar heralds.)

[mabriss lethe]

As a starting point:


5 Level PrC
-Prereqs: Fairly easy skill/feat prereqs for most classes to enter. Make entry be dependent upon being a member of an orgainization. (use currently statted 3.5 organizations for a benchmark on affiliation scores vs. perks. Have the perks mostly be social. This will cover a lot of the mechanics for working under the authority of the Crown.)

3/4 BAB

Good will save

As for class abilities, how about granting appropriate SLAs at levels 1,3, and 5. Each of those levels granting 2 SLAs. One minor one at will and one major one with an X/day limit. How about something similar to the Legacy Champion's "+1 to existing class feature" ability at levels 2 and 4?

EDIT to add: Add a caveat as to how being an Ex-member of the organization interacts with the class