The Hero of Rhyme

[Rakoa]

How would one go about creating a Bard (or even Bard-type) character with flows that are good enough to kill? Is there a way to dish out damage just by Performing at somebody? We're obviously looking for style over effectiveness here, and preferably as early as possible in the levels. I honestly don't know if this can be done, but I'll be damned if I don't want it to.

[Grod_The_Giant]

First, the obvious: direct damage spells, given that they have to have a verbal component when a bard casts them.

Pathfinder has the Sound Striker and Thundercaller archetypes, both of which get damaging performances.

You could perhaps make an argument to apply Melodic Casting to those Diamond Mind maneuvers that do damage based on Concentration checks, but that's definitely not RAW.

[AvatarVecna]

Dragonfire inspiration can throw out such sick burns that his crew starts dealing fire damage.

EDIT: Also, you might be interested in the Jester class. The bard primarily built for buffing, but IIRC the Jester is more of a debuffer.

EDIT 2: Got the wrong name.

[Jowgen]

The Doomspeak feat would fit. It's not direct damage, but you are burning them so sick with your fresh beats that they take a -10 to just about everything for a round.

Failing that, Dragonfire Inspiration to add literal burns to when you hit.

[Rakoa]

I think this is the best response time I have ever gotten on a thread. Thanks guys!


First, the obvious: direct damage spells, given that they have to have a verbal component when a bard casts them.

Pathfinder has the Sound Striker and Thundercaller archetypes, both of which get damaging performances.

You could perhaps make an argument to apply Melodic Casting to those Diamond Mind maneuvers that do damage based on Concentration checks, but that's definitely not RAW.

Direct damage is, admittedly, one way to tackle it. I just can't say I like it much.

Those archetypes, though. Damn, they are nice! I don't play much Pathfinder, but I'll remember these if it comes back.

Oddly enough, using Insightful Strike is the closest I have seen. A nice bard/warblade could dish out some mad flows, assuming the DM overrules the RAW issue.


Dragonfire inspiration can throw out such sick burns that his crew starts dealing fire damage.

EDIT: Also, you might be interested in the Jester class. The bard primarily built for buffing, but IIRC the Jester is more of a debuffer.

EDIT 2: Got the wrong name.

Dragonfire Inspiration is pretty sweet, but not for this. We need the flows to kill, by themselves. None of these flaming sword crap to help it out. As for the Jester, I have never heard of that class. Where can I find it?


The Doomspeak feat would fit. It's not direct damage, but you are burning them so sick with your fresh beats that they take a -10 to just about everything for a round.

Failing that, Dragonfire Inspiration to add literal burns to when you hit.

Like above, we need the flows to dish out the killing. The flooowwwwwssss!

[AvatarVecna]

Jesteris from Dragon Compendium.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Ooh, another one! Play a Truenamer with a homebrew feat to make Truespeak based off Charisma and a microphone as an Item Familiar. Your flow is SO SICK the universe changes to obey you!

[ILM]

Divine Prankster is a Bard-like divine PrC from Races of Stone. The capstone is called 'Killing Joke'. It does exactly what you think (though functionally its just an assassin's death attack with a will save).

(it's also one of the best tank class in the game due to its 5th level ability)

[Rakoa]

Sorry folks, but Grod just won the thread. Everyone else go home.

[Honest Tiefling]

Am I the only one who wants to see this PC have an antagonist that uses sonic based attacks? Where the character uses charisma and finesse and finely tuned wordplay, the opponent simply shouts at people until they die.

[Rakoa]

After reviewing the Truenamer and crying a little bit to myself, I have to concede that I'm mostly back to square one. I'm still keeping the idea as my number one, but now I'm hoping I can find a slightly less painful way of achieving it.

With that in mind, Warblade is still great if I can get Melodic Casting to fly. As for the rest, I'm sad to say that the Jester, while interesting, is definitely not what I'm looking for. And while being able to Joker people to death is as well, I can't go with Divine Prankster.

So it's either Truenamer or Warblade so far.

On a side note, it is a shame. Warblade would be higher up if it wasn't for all that peripheral stuff that I won't be using much. The only maneuver line I am really interested in is Insightful Strike, maybe with a few of the Moment of X counters for good measure. I know that I could get them Pure Bard by dumping feats on Martial Study, but that'll be a lot of feats and I won't be getting the abilities until much later at half IL.

[AvatarVecna]

After reviewing the Truenamer and crying a little bit to myself, I have to concede that I'm mostly back to square one.

This is so siggable, but my sig's already too big...

[torrasque666]

This is so siggable, but my sig's already too big...
That's why there are all of these extended sig links.

[AvatarVecna]

That's why there are all of these extended sig links.

I know; I've got one. But I always get a little sad when I can't squeeze something interesting into the sig people are more likely to see.

[daremetoidareyo]

divine bard Sha'ir into divine prankster with the doomspeak feat?

sha'ir 5/divine prankster 10/mindbender 1 /more things 4 (hexer w/southern magician?)


At level 16, you can telepathically kill people by telling them mental jokes.

[ZamielVanWeber]

It is Kingdoms of Kalamar content (which is licensed 3rd party so pick your poison) but the class spellsinger removes all non-expensive material components as well as all somatic components in return for all their spells having a verbal component (that cannot be silenced).

[Deadline]

There are in fact at least two ways to do what you want to do (i.e. use perform to cause direct damage). For one, you can check one of my Iron Chef builds, Derek "Baelfire" Bragg (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=16084344&postcount=270). The gist is, you use the Undersong spell to substitute Perform checks for Concentration checks, and then use the Insightful Strike maneuver line from the Diamond Mind school.

The other is the 10th level Sublime Chord ability, Song of Cosmic Fire.

Edit - Oh, and hey, the Stormsinger PrC from Frostburn lets you do it too.

[Jack_Simth]

Bard into Seeker of the Song (Complete Arcane) using Perform(Rhyme). Seeker of the Song has a 1st level ability called Burning Melody. The refrain lets the Seeker deal fire damage in a cone.

You can also just refluff a Sorcerer to a very similar effect.

[Eomir]

The bard spell 'Fugue of Tvash-Prull' (DR328 p70) has several effects it can bestow on a target depending on how good your perform check is. If you can reach a DC 60 perform it can outright kill creatures that fail their will saving throw.

[Grod_The_Giant]

So it's either Truenamer or Warblade so far.
Truenamer isn't unplayable, especially in a low op context. If you can get away with Item Focus, your Truespeak skill scales with 2*level, just like your DCs, so you're really just left with the usual problem of mediocre class abilities and poor editing. There are a couple of good homebrew fixes floating around there, for what it's worth- I recommend Kyeudo's Book of Words.

It'll also have a lot more flavor. A BardBlade will certainly be more powerful, but... You're still mostly inspiring courage and hitting things with big sticks.

[tiercel]

Oh, and hey, the Stormsinger PrC from Frostburn lets you do it too.

Sound of the drums
Beating in my heart
The thunder of guns
Tore me apart
You've been
Thunderstruck

Downside: ranged touch attack and Reflex save (for basic Thunderstrike ability -- and yes, it's actually called that), line AoE (for Great Thunderstrike)

Upside: deals your Perform skill check result as damage. If you can optimize your skill check much (even with backup singers Aiding Another)...

[Deadline]

Upside: deals your Perform skill check result as damage. If you can optimize your skill check much (even with backup singers Aiding Another)...

All three methods I mentioned deal your Perform Skill check result as damage. Greater Insightful Strike deals double your check result. :smalltongue:

Yes, that means you can get pretty ridiculous results, just by singing, dancing, miming, strumming, humming, or orating at them hard enough. :smallbiggrin:

[Flickerdart]

There's the spell bonefiddle with a fun decscription: "You rub your middle finger across your thumb like a bow against a fiddle while simultaneously humming a discordant tune under your breath. Nearby, you see a translucent bone-white fiddle bow appear and sink into the flesh of your target. It begins sawing, as if playing your target like a fiddle."

Song of festering death from BoVDD gives you "the subject's flesh bubbles and festers into pestilent blobs" which is also pretty gruesome.

Tvash-Prull's Fugue was updated in Spell Compendium as fugue and no longer auto-kills.

[erok0809]

I don't have anything to contribute to this thread build-wise, but assuming that this is referencing what I think it is, I really love this song, and I'm glad to see another starbomb fan!

[AvatarVecna]

Re: Greater Insightful Strike

I'm off to see how to fully optimize Perform: Weapon Drill for this...

EDIT:

I just looked it up, and I don't think the trick with Greater Insightful Strike actually works that way: the feat that lets you replace Concentration with Perform is only for a specified list of things, and maneuvers are not on that list.

[Rakoa]

There are in fact at least two ways to do what you want to do (i.e. use perform to cause direct damage). For one, you can check one of my Iron Chef builds, Derek "Baelfire" Bragg (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=16084344&postcount=270). The gist is, you use the Undersong spell to substitute Perform checks for Concentration checks, and then use the Insightful Strike maneuver line from the Diamond Mind school.

The other is the 10th level Sublime Chord ability, Song of Cosmic Fire.

Edit - Oh, and hey, the Stormsinger PrC from Frostburn lets you do it too.

I like Stormsinger a lot. As early as level 8 I can be getting off sick rhymes that kill.


Truenamer isn't unplayable, especially in a low op context. If you can get away with Item Focus, your Truespeak skill scales with 2*level, just like your DCs, so you're really just left with the usual problem of mediocre class abilities and poor editing. There are a couple of good homebrew fixes floating around there, for what it's worth- I recommend Kyeudo's Book of Words.

It'll also have a lot more flavor. A BardBlade will certainly be more powerful, but... You're still mostly inspiring courage and hitting things with big sticks.

Yeah, you're right. Bardblade can suck it. If I can get Item Familiar okay'd, then I'll probably go with Truenamer. Maybe Stormsinger, depending on how I feel at the time and what the DM is allowing.


There's the spell bonefiddle with a fun decscription: "You rub your middle finger across your thumb like a bow against a fiddle while simultaneously humming a discordant tune under your breath. Nearby, you see a translucent bone-white fiddle bow appear and sink into the flesh of your target. It begins sawing, as if playing your target like a fiddle."

Song of festering death from BoVDD gives you "the subject's flesh bubbles and festers into pestilent blobs" which is also pretty gruesome.

Tvash-Prull's Fugue was updated in Spell Compendium as fugue and no longer auto-kills.

Those spells are seriously awesome. They have been noted.


I don't have anything to contribute to this thread build-wise, but assuming that this is referencing what I think it is, I really love this song, and I'm glad to see another starbomb fan!

Oh, you know it, pal.


Re: Greater Insightful Strike

I'm off to see how to fully optimize Perform: Weapon Drill for this...

EDIT:

I just looked it up, and I don't think the trick with Greater Insightful Strike actually works that way: the feat that lets you replace Concentration with Perform is only for a specified list of things, and maneuvers are not on that list.

Melodic Casting does not work for this purpose RAW or RAI. That is why the build Deadline mentioned uses the Undersong spell, which definitely does work.

[AvatarVecna]

Melodic Casting does not work for this purpose RAW or RAI. That is why the build Deadline mentioned uses the Undersong spell, which definitely does work.

Ah! Pay me no mind then. I'm off to optimize it again...

[Deadline]

I like Stormsinger a lot. As early as level 8 I can be getting off sick rhymes that kill.

You can do the Insightful Strike version as early as Bard 4/Warblade 3. And there's no save for that version.

[AvatarVecna]

Alright, assuming 20th level, however many feats are necessary, however many items are necessary, however many allies are necessary, Full BAB, etc. For our Cha, let's assume 39 (Base 18+Race 2+Age 3+Level 5+Book 5+Item 6); we'll also assume we've somehow used Circle Magic to attain Caster Level 40.

23 ranks (basic skill ranks)
23 ranks (Item Familiar)
10 untyped (BAB)
14 untyped (Charisma)
14 circumstance (Marshall "Motivate Charisma" Aura)
30 competence (custom item)
03 untyped (Skill Focus)
02 untyped (Versatile Performer)
12 untyped (Perform: Weapon Drill, various feats)
43 Insight (Reserves of Strength+Moment of Prescience)
86 Luck (Reserves of Strength+Improvisation)
08 untyped (Sirine's Grace)

Total Perform: Weapon Drill bonus: +268

Average Damage w/ Greater Insightful Strike: 557 damage.

I'm sure there's some high-OP tricks for accomplishing all of this on the same build, but I can't be bothered to work out the exact build that could do so.

[tiercel]

From a fluff point of view, part of it is HOW you want your killer rhymes to kill: whether your killer rhymes make you killer in melee (Insightful Strike), whether they create some sort of zap from a distance (Thunderstrike), or whether the rhymes themselves are killer (probably looking at more pure sonic attacks, i.e. only modestly refluffed versions of already [Sonic] spells boosted with something like Lyric Thaumaturge - the only problem with LT is that "caster bard" builds tend to fall more into Sublime Chord/Virtuouso bard/sorcerer builds rather than sticking with LT).

[tuesdayscoming]

Oh, man.

Okay. So you go Bard into Shadowcraft Mage. Give yourself a beat with the bardic music of your choice, and use Melodic Casting to start spitting rhymes (that is, casting a heightened Silent Image). Your lyrics are so sick that you create mostly-real manifestations of your sweet, sweet rhyme-stuff.

Ideally, you want to mitigate the cost of Heighten as much as possible. Possible solutions are Incantatrix, Spelldancer, Midnight Metamagic, Circle Magic, etc. You know, the usual candidates.

Alternatively, drop bard and pick up a full-casting class. Either forget bardic music or pick it up via Warrior Skald, Heartfire Fanner, or the like.