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Shas aia Toriia
2007-05-22, 06:23 PM
Hello all.

I'm making a new character, at ECL 5, with my party being a half-dragon barbarian, a swordsage/warblade, a cleric, and I think a wizard.
My charcter is going to be an archer. I need help with starter feats, flaws, race, blah blah blah.

Currently, he wields a greatbow, and has the flaw that gives you -2 in melee. Could you help me with him, and give me a basic plan for the long run? By the way, i was thinking along the lines of a fighter/rogue.

EDIT: Also, could someone give me a link to the flaw page, since I seem to have lost it.

PinkysBrain
2007-05-22, 07:02 PM
half-dragon barbarian
Ick, he is going to have trouble.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/characterFlaws.htm

What books can you use?

Emperor Tippy
2007-05-22, 07:05 PM
And do you want an actual archer or just someone to fill the archer role?

Shas aia Toriia
2007-05-22, 07:25 PM
I want an actual archer, not a wizard. He can't have a nice flying mount due to his greatbow, so none of that.

And I have acess to core, the old complete series, races series, both forgotten realms and eberron campaogn setting, ToB, Arms and Equipment and other irrelevant stuff (spells and ships, that kind of stuff).

Shoyliguad
2007-05-22, 07:30 PM
heres my advice, you can either take an elf and go ranger and grab a level of wizard and become an arcane archer or a class I find pretty cool is soul knife (if you can take it) and go into a soul bow. Both these classes are prestige but are awesome archer classes. Another idea is going fighter/ranger combo giving you the nice weapon spec feats of a fighter and the specilization of a ranger.

Shas aia Toriia
2007-05-22, 07:36 PM
For race, I was thinking of going catfolk.

And I have decided to start fasting spellcasters for a while.

PinkysBrain
2007-05-22, 07:37 PM
I want an actual archer, not a wizard. He can't have a nice flying mount due to his greatbow, so none of that.
I'd still have a backup bow if I were you ... even on an ordinary horse and without feats the extra mobility can be really handy sometimes.

Ignoring that.

And I have acess to core, the old complete series, races series, both forgotten realms and eberron campaogn setting, ToB, Arms and Equipment and other irrelevant stuff (spells and ships, that kind of stuff).
Do you have antipathy towards artificers? Even a single level dip into artificer would be rather useful ... going full artificer would also work well (after all, they can do anything better)

Shas aia Toriia
2007-05-22, 07:38 PM
By the way, do you have feat and armor suggestions?

I was thinking mitral breastplate when I can afford it, and take Rich Burlew's armor feats.

Shas aia Toriia
2007-05-22, 07:40 PM
I'd still have a backup bow if I were you ... even on an ordinary horse and without feats the extra mobility can be really handy sometimes.

Ignoring that.

Do you have antipathy towards casters? Even a single level dip into artificer would be rather useful ... going full artificer would also work well (after all, they can do anything better).

I know that, but that would brek the game. The people I play with are heavily RP, so I got my concept and am sticking with it.

PinkysBrain
2007-05-22, 07:42 PM
For race, I was thinking of going catfolk.
Please someone start a physics argument!

Shas aia Toriia
2007-05-22, 07:55 PM
Funny.

Anyways, they give +4 to dexterity, +2 to charisma, 40 feet speed, give bonuses to move silently and listen and have low-light vision, for +1 LA.
What do you guys think?:smalltongue:

Fourth Tempter
2007-05-22, 07:58 PM
I know that, but that would brek the game. The people I play with are heavily RP, so I got my concept and am sticking with it.

Please, understand that so far your roleplaying concept seems to be "an archer", and a very large number of classes can fit that role. Even if you define a specific personality, it is unlikely to only fit one specific class.

The "gold standard" of non-magical archers is a Scout 4/Ranger 16 (15, with Catfolk, but that is not really important). As a fifth-level Catfolk, that would simply be Scout 4 plus your level adjustment.

The driving feats of the build are Swift Hunter and Improved Skirmish from the Complete Scoundrel; the latter adds Skirmish damage when you move twenty feet rather than ten, and the former makes Ranger and Scout levels combine for determination of Skirmish and Favored Enemy bonuses.


Alternatively, may I suggest the Psychic Warrior? They are remarkably competent archers, with a very consistent damage output (even if it will never be the highest) and useful mobility powers.

Edited to add: Ah, yes, I forgot Greater Manyshot. That feat allows you to fire multiple arrows and receive Skirmish damage on all of them.

The Prince of Cats
2007-05-22, 08:01 PM
Go Elf, grab a copy of Masters of the Wild and beg your DM to let you have Deepwood Sniper.

Let's face it, there is a reason that class never made it into 3.5; it is a little unbalanced...

PinkysBrain
2007-05-22, 08:04 PM
I know that, but that would brek the game. The people I play with are heavily RP, so I got my concept and am sticking with it.
The problem was that you didn't mention your concept in your OP :) (Artificers make great archers, they don't really break the game either if the DM curbs some of the madness with some houserules.) You didn't mention MiHB on your booklist either.

I'll have to throw in my vote for the scout/ranger with greater manyshot.

Arbitrarity
2007-05-22, 08:27 PM
They even have a name: Archerficer!

Nah, go with the scout/ranger. Excellent build, full skirmish and then some, most useful ranger class abilities.

Shas aia Toriia
2007-05-23, 07:18 AM
Thanks. But I was also thinking of putting in a bit of fighter, for some fighter-only bonus feats. What do you guys think?

Oppolo
2007-05-23, 07:38 AM
For race, I was thinking of going catfolk.

Don't do it! The number 1 advantage of Catfolk is 'pounce', something you won't be able to do.

Humans aren't hugely flavourful, but that bonus feat will help if you want to go pure archery. PBShot, Preciseshot, Rapidshot, Farshot, Manyshot, Weapon Focus, Quickdraw, any number of others from other books.

You've given up melee attack, and that's fine, so you should consider what you want to do as a 'backup' to archery.

Bard levels are GREAT for you. You'll get to support your whole team, and bards are also fantastic for RP-heavy games. You get a lot of social skills, bardic knowledge, and you can pull off a few illusion spells for variety.

Ranger levels will make you skillful and useful to the team, you should see if that barbarian is going to be a tracker too. If not, then maybe you could concentrate on a tracking-centric Ranger- that's good for RP campaigns.

If you're going for awesomeness, Arcane Archers are great. You can center spells on your arrows which gives you HUGE range (antimagic fields!) and give cone-spells a much larger area-of-effect than they're meant to have (200 foot burning hands!). Of course, you'd have to concentrate on being a spellcaster for this. It fits your theme pretty well (no melee means you're well out of combat, you don't need to be able to take a hit)- but it can be hard to do well.

Closet_Skeleton
2007-05-23, 07:54 AM
Don't do it! The number 1 advantage of Catfolk is 'pounce', something you won't be able to do.

Humans aren't hugely flavourful, but that bonus feat will help if you want to go pure archery. PBShot, Preciseshot, Rapidshot, Farshot, Manyshot, Weapon Focus, Quickdraw, any number of others from other books.

You've given up melee attack, and that's fine, so you should consider what you want to do as a 'backup' to archery.

Bard levels are GREAT for you. You'll get to support your whole team, and bards are also fantastic for RP-heavy games. You get a lot of social skills, bardic knowledge, and you can pull off a few illusion spells for variety.

Ranger levels will make you skillful and useful to the team, you should see if that barbarian is going to be a tracker too. If not, then maybe you could concentrate on a tracking-centric Ranger- that's good for RP campaigns.

If you're going for awesomeness, Arcane Archers are great. You can center spells on your arrows which gives you HUGE range (antimagic fields!) and give cone-spells a much larger area-of-effect than they're meant to have (200 foot burning hands!). Of course, you'd have to concentrate on being a spellcaster for this. It fits your theme pretty well (no melee means you're well out of combat, you don't need to be able to take a hit)- but it can be hard to do well.

The problem with Arcane Archer is your too limeted in your spell progression unless you only take Arcane Archer as a dip.

Any archer class that gets sneak attack within 30 ft. only needs to die hard. There's a ranger spell that cancels that out though.

PinkysBrain
2007-05-23, 12:07 PM
Thanks. But I was also thinking of putting in a bit of fighter, for some fighter-only bonus feats. What do you guys think?
You need 4 levels of fighter to get weapon specialization, if you put those into the scout/ranger build you get both an increase in your favored enemy bonus AND an extra d6 of skirmish damage ... that is a whole lot better. Since fighter has no impact on your background worth speaking off why take levels in it if that just makes you weaker?

Shas aia Toriia
2007-05-23, 03:14 PM
Don't forget, the fighter levels will also get me two other feats, and those could be used for some useful stuff.

by the way, this variant of the catfolk doesn't have pounce in it.

JaronK
2007-05-23, 03:31 PM
Catfolk pounce isn't part of the race, it's a feat that only that race can get.

I strongly recommend leaving out fighter and just going Scout 4/Ranger 16, with human or a race that can have Ranger as a favored class as your race.

You don't need many feats... Ranger will help with most of them. All you really need is Greater Manyshot, Swift Hunter, and Improved Skirmish (plus prerequisits. That will make you a nice solid mobile archer with lots of skill points and some very useful spells (hunters eye!).

JaronK

Shoyliguad
2007-05-23, 03:35 PM
theres a sick feat called woodland archer which really helps

Spiryt
2007-05-23, 04:13 PM
You know being half serious, I was always thinking about Being Orc or at least half orc for archer build. And drop one level into barbarian, to have 28 strenght in rage.

You know there is no limit how much Composite can be your bow. And anything says that you can't shoot bow while in rage.:smallwink: At least in basics: Players Handbook and SRD.

Shas aia Toriia
2007-05-23, 04:18 PM
Why 28 strength for an archer?

Also, the problem with the archer is that it only gives you 3 bonus feats, combined with the one from the scout gives you 4. I will probably only be in leafweave padded, due to my high dexterity (probably around 20 not including magic items or stat boosts), so I need some good AC boosting feats.

Skirmish feats aside, what do I need to take (other then the point blank shot chain).

Spiryt
2007-05-23, 04:26 PM
Why 28 strength for an archer?



You know + 9 to damage from ANY distance... I said i was half serious but anyway it's not bad. And it would be interesting character.

Arbitrarity
2007-05-23, 04:37 PM
Composite bows. Really. Good.

Well, compared to regular bows.

kemmotar
2007-05-23, 04:47 PM
Even without having 28 strength a little strength damage from a composite greatbow never hurt anyone...Besides, you get insane range that way and a little more damage. Of course in higher levels you can buff up your strength a bit too for extra damage and giving him the ability to actually hit something once in a while when forced into melee...
That is for me the biggest shortcoming of an archer, if space doesn't help and if your fellow party members do not keep the badies off of you you're in for a lot of trouble if you have absolutely no recourse for melee...
With a little more strength you kill two birds with one stone, some extra damage and some survivability in melee...
All in all i'd second scout/ranger with skirmish feats and track...maybe combat expertise if you have the intelligence and room for it...that way you can withstand a few rounds in melee before the other party members (hopefully) decide to help you...

Ardantis
2007-05-23, 05:39 PM
I really like the 16 Ranger 4 Scout build, Scouts are my favorite alt-base class (except for maybe Duskblades.)

In an RP campaign, the backgrounds suggested by Scout/Ranger are much different than those suggested by Fighter. I mean, a woodlands theme coupled with skill points and cool wilderness abilities make for a very chewy character with a lot of individuality- he can survive on his own, track, and be his own character.

A Fighter really suggests a military background, and cries out for team support. Oh, sure, he'll kick serious butt, but can't hide or track or do much else. He can basically get to good shooting spots with jump and climb, then pelt absolute death upon belligerents engaging his allies. If they run or hide, however, fuggedaboutit, because he'll never track them or find them. I like the CW PrCs Zen Archer and even Occult Slayer to give a little character to your character.

That's my two bits, with RPing thrown in.

Person_Man
2007-05-24, 09:35 AM
OK, several things:

1) A greatbow actually reduces your expected damage. Expected damage = Average Damage * Probability of hitting * # of attacks. Using a greatbow increases your Average Damage Slightly, but it also decreases your probability of hitting slightly. So for most enemies, your expected damage actually goes down, and you've wasted a feat.

2) As Oppolo has pointed out, the main benefit of being a Catfolk is Pounce. There is no crunch reason to be a Catfolk archer.

3) The main powerful archer builds are:

Cleric Archer: Zen Archery, buff spells, Greater Magic Weapon
Soulbow: Zen Archery, Wis to damage, magic arrow creation
Peerless Archer: 3.0, Power Attack for arrows, makes magic arrows
Fey Archer: Charming the Arrow, Cha based classes, Fear
Rogue 3/Swash 17 with Daring Outlaw: Full Sneak Attack, 19/20 BAB
Scout 3/Rogue 17: Swift Ambusher, Full Sneak Attack + Skirmish


4) I purposefully didn't include a Ranger Archer or a Ranger/Scout. Skirmish and Favored Enemy both have very poor damage progression. The Ranger gets some help with this with the Spell Compendium, but in my opinion, its not enough to keep up with most other builds once you hit mid levels, especially since your caster progression is slowed by your levels of Scout.

5) Keep in mind that any non full caster archer build will always lag behind good melee and full caster builds in terms of damage output, flexibility, and usefulness. So I suggest finding a secondary role (usually one of the Skill sets, like scout or party face) that you also enjoy, otherwise you'll feel left behind after a while.

Shas aia Toriia
2007-05-24, 03:04 PM
For melee, I'm taking Weapon Finesse, which will really help with my large dexterity. The reason I am being catfolk is their +4 to dexterity. If someone can find a better race with low LA, I would be quite thankful.

Also, I was also going to take a few levels in other classes, since I enjoy playing a party face, and I'll get some nice skills with the scout ranger build. However, I want to know if I should take some levels in rogue.

Also, what armor should I have?

kemmotar
2007-05-24, 05:19 PM
for armor probably mithral shirt would be best with +6 max dex modifier...Also if you add some other template (hellforged etc, don't remember atm what book they're from though, sorry) you can find some useful abilities or further increase the max dex modifier. On the plus side for this armor, its a chain shirt but is considered light armor with no skill check penalty...
Rogue would be useful if you wanna get a lot of skill points and become somewhat of a skill monkey, get track in ranger while you're at it and deal with traps, if you've got the intelligence for it, tracking and party face (can never go wrong with charisma:smallbiggrin: )
Also how does a greatbow reduce your damage? isnt it normal damage plus strength modifier up to a point depending on the greatbow? what was it 1d8 +?

RTGoodman
2007-05-24, 05:36 PM
Anyways, they give +4 to dexterity, +2 to charisma, 40 feet speed, give bonuses to move silently and listen and have low-light vision, for +1 LA.
What do you guys think?:smalltongue:

You know, I realized that the other day looking through my buddy's copy of RotW. If I would have know all that, I would have already made some sort of swashbuckler or barbarian or maybe dervish build using one.

Anyway, for an archer build, I might would go with Human (for the feat and skills) and would probably work toward Cragtop Archer. I don't have the book with me at the moment, but I seem to remember thinking last time I read it that it'd be a nice prestige class for an archer build.

Quirinus_Obsidian
2007-05-24, 05:38 PM
What books are allowed in your campaign? Do you like Psionics? There is a 3rd party (OGL d20 certified, of course) 3.5 edition Psionics book called "Untapped Potential" that has the ONLY, I repeat, ONLY Psionic base class with a full BAB AND powers; it's called the Marksman, and is exacly what you need. It is made of win. I love that class. I can do a writeup for you if you want; but it wont be available until after I get off of work.

Saph
2007-05-24, 05:49 PM
2) As Oppolo has pointed out, the main benefit of being a Catfolk is Pounce. There is no crunch reason to be a Catfolk archer.

I wouldn't agree with this. Catfolk get +4 Dex, +2 Cha, 40 feet speed, and +1 natural armour. Pretty good for +1 LA, and all of those abilities bar the Charisma work well for an archer. Plus their favoured class is Ranger, which meshes nicely with the Scout/Ranger build.

If your primary role in battles is firing arrows, then +4 to Dex is a big deal. That's +2 to attack, +2 to AC, +2 to initiative, +2 to Reflex, and +2 to all those Dex skills like Tumble, Hide, and Move Silently that you probably have anyway. I'd say that's worth the +1 to attack, extra skill rank, and extra Hit Die you'll get from an extra Ranger level.

And obviously, if LA buyoff is allowed, then Catfolk looks even better.

- Saph

Whiplord
2007-05-24, 06:09 PM
I apoligize for maybe hijacking the thread, but could someone please explain LA buyoff to me? I keep seeing it, but have never seen an explanation.

Saph
2007-05-24, 06:55 PM
I apoligize for maybe hijacking the thread, but could someone please explain LA buyoff to me? I keep seeing it, but have never seen an explanation.

No problem. You can find the rules for it here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/reducingLevelAdjustments.htm).

Short version: you pay a one-time XP cost to remove your level adjustment. It's a short-term loss but a long-term gain.

- Saph

Shas aia Toriia
2007-05-24, 07:33 PM
Quirinus, if you could show me the class, I'd be thankful, since I myself do not have it.

The only problem with the chainshirt is that it doesn't use my dexterity as well as it could. When the party starts, I'll likely have a dex of 24 or so. Do you know any better armor? Mithral is obvious, unless someone has something better.

Quirinus_Obsidian
2007-05-24, 07:48 PM
Okay Shas'aia Toriia, give me about a half-hour to format it right, and it's yours. =_)

Shas aia Toriia
2007-05-24, 08:01 PM
Please, call me Shas.

Quirinus_Obsidian
2007-05-24, 08:10 PM
NP Shas =_)

Would it be Okay if I PM it to you? The class features are huge, and I don't want to overload the board server.

Shas aia Toriia
2007-05-24, 08:11 PM
No problem.

Thanks guys for your help so far, though!

Quirinus_Obsidian
2007-05-24, 08:59 PM
Shas check PM. Let me know if that is a little odd to read.

Also, if you are looking for a build; do NOT multiclass this. It is beyond win the way that it is now. Your build for an archer with the Catfolk is a lot like mine as a Dust Para-Genasi. I went with:

Signature Style: Bow
Flaw(1, noncombatant [-2 penalty to melee): Rapid Shot
Flaw(2, Vulnerable [-1 penalty to AC) : Ranged Threat (Quintessential Elf.]) You threaten a 20' area with bow
1st Level: Combat Reflexes
3rd: Precise Shot
6th: Psionic Shot
8th (Class) Woodland Archer
9th: Shot on the Run
12th: True Beleiver (for the Raptor Arrows relic)
14th (Class): Manyshot
15th: Improved Rapid Shot
18th: Greater Psionic Shot
20th (Class) Penetrating Shot
21st (Epic) Epic Psionic Focus

kemmotar
2007-05-25, 09:49 AM
When i said chain shirt i meant a specific armor in DMG page 220. It has the best combo for AC and Max Dexterity modifier +6...but i have found no other piece of armor with more than that mad dex than this one. If you take leather (+6) or padded armor (+8) the AC bonus is non existent. Thus with mithral shirt you get +10 AC (4 armor+6 dex without magical modifiers), with leather armor you get +8 max AC (2 armor+6 dex without magical modifiers) and with padded armor you again get a max +9 (1 armor +8 dex).

In addition this particular armor has no armor check penalty and does not reduce your speed, plus you can enchant for more AC or abilities etc and have AC. Armor does not restrict how much dex you can use for ranged attack roll so it doesn't matter and this is the best outcome you can get for AC.

If you want infinite dexterity modifier in your armor just get a +4 bracers of armor. this however would require you to have massive amounts of dexterity since a +5 mithal shirt will give you a maximum of +15 AC and allows you to use bracers of archery (or whatever their exact name is). Whereas with bracers of armor +6 you would need 28 dexterity to get the same amount of AC and even more to make up for a pretty much empty item slot.

A ring of shielding, amulet of natural armor and combat expertise will help infinitely more for AC and you can use bracers of archery. You can also use an enchanted mithral buckler for shield AC since it stacks with ring of shielding (deflection AC).

So in the end although bracers of armor will let you have infinite AC from Dex in the end they will restrict you more than they actually help you.

Finally, you can houserule with your DM to pay more to visit a specialist smith that can make you an armor with higher max dex- in game terms more mobile armor that does not restrict your movement- in exchange for more money.

If i'm not mistaken though there is also somewhere an item ( a necklace i think) that some times per day you can activate and it will create a silvery film over your body that works as armor and allows infinite dex modifier. I dont remember the specifics though..

PinkysBrain
2007-05-25, 11:29 AM
If your DM is willing to use the human like races variant rule from RoD you could consider a shifter rogue 2/scout 3/ranger X. Shifters have a superficial resemblance to catfolk, it only has +2 dex ... but the lack of LA evens the odds between them. More importantly, with the variant rule they can take able learner ... which would effectively give you almost all skills as class skills no matter what classes you take. I'd start with rogue 2/ranger 3 in this case.

Don't spend feats to get a little better at melee. You won't be doing much damage in melee, having a slightly higher to hit chance won't change that. It's not gestalt, you can't be good at all things ... if you try to do too many things you just end up being bad at all of them.

kemmotar
2007-05-25, 12:26 PM
Actually Able Learner feat does not make all skills class skills, it just makes all skill ranks cost 1 skill rank. Max ranks for cross class skills still apply. So although you could get skill ranks in any skill with a one for one skill point for rank basis, you would still be limited in skills that can only be used trained and max ranks for crossclass skills.

Person_Man
2007-05-25, 01:01 PM
Choosing to do both melee and ranged is a common build mistake.

If you are a melee build, you need high AC, high hit points, and high damage output. You can't pull that off high AC or hit points as Rogue, Ranger, Scout, et al. And you can't reliably pull off a high damage combo without full BAB and a large investment in the Power Attack feat tree.

If you are a ranged build, you're in a safer position, with lower damage output. But again, you need to invest a lot of feats before you can be effective (Rapid Shot, Manyshot, Precise Shot, Point Blank Shot, Greater Manyshot, etc).

If you focus all of your feats on one thing, you become very good at that one thing. If you divide your feats between several different trees, then you will be mediocre at several different things. And mediocre just doesn't cut it when your friends and enemies are full casters.


Re: Catfolk: If LA buyoff is usable, its a good idea. Otherwise, its a very poor idea. Assuming you want to be a melee build, you generally take Catfolk for the Pounce ability. But you can get Pounce from a 1 level dip in Barbarian using the Complete Champion variant. You can also get it from a Ranger spell, Psychic Warrior power, and various other methods (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=5305146). Assuming you want to be a ranged build, you can get a decent Dex bonus from any number of non LA races (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=697653). Giving up the class level also means you're giving up 1 point of BAB (which balances out the minor bonus To-Hit from higher Dex, and also determines the number of attacks you get per round), hit points and Saving Throws (balancing out a point of AC), and most importantly, access to higher level abilities (Rogue Special Abilities, Sneak Attack, Scout's Fast Movement, useful high level Ranger spells from the Compendium, superior Cleric Spells, etc).

Spiryt
2007-05-25, 01:16 PM
If you are a melee build, you need high AC, high hit points, and high damage output. You can't pull that off high AC or hit points as Rogue, Ranger, Scout, et al.



I'm not trying to play expert, but why can't you have high AC as Rogue, Ranger or (esspecialy) Scout (skirmish bonus)? I just want to know, beacuse i absolutely dont have knack for powergaming.

PinkysBrain
2007-05-25, 01:47 PM
Actually Able Learner feat does not make all skills class skills
Actually I didn't say that, also "max ranks for cross class skills" is a very misleading way to talk about max ranks.

Just to clarify for anyone not familiar with the rules for max ranks ... if a skill is on any of your classes it's max rank is 3 + character level, regardless if it's cross class at your present level. So if you can buy all skills at one rank per skill point then having rogue as one of your classes with it's extensive list of class skills "would effectively give you almost all skills as class skills" (there are some notable exceptions, the knowledge skills for instance).

kemmotar
2007-05-25, 01:56 PM
well, such classes depend more or less on dexterity and do not have profficiency with heavy armors of shields. Armor will cut down the bonuses you get from dexterity to AC and the armors themselves do not provide much AC anyway.

If you want AC you're better off rolling a meleer of some kind since bumping up your AC will only reduce your other abilities. Same with HP, if you bump up your constitution and/or strength your other abilities such as dexterity will have to suffer. As it has been said before, you can either excel in one thing or be mediocre at two..Going for three will only lessen your actual ability.

The reason rogues have UMD, sneak attack and tumble is to allow them to get in and out of battle and to end encounters as quickly as possible. Therefore HP and AC are kind of a moot point. However it is never bad to have as long as it does not pull down your other abilities.

As i said before you can get a lot of AC with bracers of armor +6 (or better for epic campaigns) and insane amounts dexterity, this however takes up the bracer slot and leaves the body slot empty. Body slots are mainly used for armor-> AC whereas bracers can offer much more for some classes such as archers and rogues.

So if you do go out of your way to bump up AC and HP everything else which you actually need all the time as an archer and not stuff you need in melee...especially since you're an archer and shouldn't be in melee in the first place...

If you want to be able to escape melee then you're better off with miss chance spells either through scrolls, special abilities, armor/item abilities etc...
Finally greater invisibility and fly can be infinitely more useful...a flying invisible target is far more difficult for a meleer to deal with...One good idea would be spring attack while flying and with gr. invisibility. you move somewhere, full attack (is that possible, dont precisely remember the feat) and then go back. preferably somewhere with cover...then let the enemy caster or ranged fighter try to find you...fireballing around your previous position in the assumption you're still there will be useless...

Only see invisibility, arcane sight or true seeing can see through this although just seeing you isn't as useful when they cant attack you anyway...Plus with Gr. invisibility you get SA and skirmish bonuses to damage.

Being out of reach is much better than having lotsa HP and AC if you can damage stuff without being next to them...:smallbiggrin:

FirstAdam
2007-05-25, 02:17 PM
The only problem with the chainshirt is that it doesn't use my dexterity as well as it could. When the party starts, I'll likely have a dex of 24 or so. Do you know any better armor? Mithral is obvious, unless someone has something better.

Mithril is good, brings the bonus on a chain shirt up to +6, and I think in a Forgotten Realms book, there is a magical armor property Nimbleness that raises it another +2. Then, in the DMG, there is that celestial armor, which im pretty sure is a +8, and then Nimbleness could go on THAT. Of course, that might be a bit out of the price range for a level 5.

Another build I had a lot of fun and success with was an Elven Scout/ Order of the bow initiate. You move, get your skirmish, and with Order of the bow, you get a bunch of d8s added on as well. Higher levels, your range for all precision based damage (point blank shot, sneak attack, skirmish, and the Order's Precise attack or whatever it's called) bumps up to 60 feet. Pity he died horribly for plot reasons....

Telonius
2007-05-25, 02:24 PM
Hm, 24 Dex? Okay, let's work this one out.

You currently have +7 to your Dex bonus. If you get a +5 Padded armor, your AC is 10 + 1 (padded) +5 (magical enhancement) + 7 (dex bonus) = 23. This costs 25,000 gp. If you get an extra bump to Dex, your AC can go up to 24.

If you get a +5 Mithral Shirt, your AC is 10 + 4 (chain shirt) + 5 (magical enhancement) + 6 (max dex bonus, mithral) = 25. This costs 26,000 gp. Is 1 point of AC worth 1,000 gp? I'd say yes.

But let's say you don't like that max dex bonus, so you go for Bracers of Armor. This gives you an AC of 10 + 8 (Bracers) + 7 (dex) = 25. This costs 64,000 gp. Exactly the same AC as the Mithral shirt, for more than twice the price? Not that great a deal.

Well, the first two of the above set a cap for Dex, but Bracers of Armor don't set that cap. So let's say you really go all out. Put all of your ability points into Dex, get Gloves of Dex +6 and a manual +5. Dex ends up at 24+6(gloves, 36k)+5(ability bumps)+5 (manual, 137.5k) = 40. AC would be 10 + 8 (Bracers) + 15 (Dex) = 33.

This costs 237,500 gp for an AC of 33, as opposed to 26,000 for an AC of 25. Are those extra 8 points of AC worth 211,500gp? Granted, you can always get other armor items (natural armor amulet, ring of protection, etc.), and you'll probably want to boost your Dex anyway for your attacks. But an Archer doing the Mithral Chain Shirt route will still have more resources left over to buy - well, anything - than an archer going with Bracers. And you'll still have your Bracers slot open, so you can buy - oh, let's say, Bracers of Archery. :smallwink:

Spiryt
2007-05-25, 02:34 PM
Ok many thanks kemmotar.

Anyway i think I have another question, this time on topic:smallwink: could be also useful for Shas'aia.

How good will be ranger (with scout levels too, of course) with REALLY nice wisdom (even 20)? This will give him nice will save in addition too good Ref and Fort, good survival etc, and additional spells. And there are really cool ranger-only spells in spell compendium. Hunters mercy- auto hit and more damage ( i know that cleric anyawy have better spells but fortunately somebody still won't to play something else than Wiz/Druid/Cle.) With carefully used spells he could do well. What do you think?

kemmotar
2007-05-25, 02:37 PM
Well, you do have to take into consideration the price too. Mithral shirt price is 1100 unenchanted. add maybe +1 for a total AC of 21 with just 2100 spent. which i think is pretty good considering that you need 16k for bracers of armor for less AC...

With just 2.1k spent you can invest on a better bow while having a decent AC. That way you can end low level encounters much faster with less chance of involving yourself in melee anyway. Also that leaves you enough money (depending on how much the DM gives you to get gloves of dexterity +4, or at least +2 from the beginning...)

Person_Man
2007-05-25, 02:57 PM
I'm not trying to play expert, but why can't you have high AC as Rogue, Ranger or (esspecialy) Scout (skirmish bonus)? I just want to know, beacuse i absolutely dont have knack for powergaming.

OK, so staying alive can be broken down into four things:


High AC: Armor, Shield, feats, natural armor, Dex bonus, deflection bonus, class bonuses, magic items, spells, etc.

High Hit Points: Hit Die, Con mod, Improved Toughness, temporary hit points, magic items, spells.

High Saves: Base Saves, good stats, Divine Grace, Dark Gift, Arcane Resistance, racial bonuses, magic items, spells, etc.

Immunities and Resistances: Evasion, Mettle, Immune to Crits, Divine Health, SR, etc.


If you are standing on the front line of combat, you will often be hit with melee attacks. Thus, you need high AC, high hit points, a respectable Fort Save (Massive Damage, Poison, Stunning Fist), and if you can swing it somehow, Immunity to Crits (and thus also Precision damage).

A Rogue can only wear light armor and cannot use a shield (or the commonly used animated shield). Thus even if he has a 20 Dex, he can't attain reasonable AC without spending a much bigger pile of money.

More importantly, his hit points are limited to d6+Con. If you can find a way to max out Con, then you'll be OK. But most players choose instead choose to put their stats into Int and Dex, to improve their Skills and mediocre AC.

Plus unless he has a high Con, he's going to have a piss poor Fort Save. Massive Damage is a common occurrence at mid to high levels. Without a good Fort Save, its pretty much inevitable that you will die from one if you're frequently on the front line of combat.

And finally, there's the Crit problem. They occur almost every combat, and they usually occur against people standing on the front line. A few builds (Warforged, Warshaper, undead, plants) can get around it. Otherwise, you just need a really high hit points. Defensive Roll can help with this, but otherwise, you just need massive hit points. So again, unless you have a high Con, you're screwed.

So to summarize, a Rogue is generally not optimal for front line combat. If you're playing a high enough level game that you have the money to invest in the right magic items, and have a very high Con, then you can pull it off. But if you're not, its very difficult. And more importantly, most games I play in start at level 1 and work their way up. So your melee Rogue has to invest all of its feats in melee (instead of the much safer ranged feats) and somehow survive long enough to afford high AC. Certainly possible, but very difficult.

Spiryt
2007-05-25, 03:11 PM
Ok , thanks but i stil don't understand all:


Thus even if he has a 20 Dex, he can't attain reasonable AC without spending a much bigger pile of money.
Wearing heavy armor gives you only 8+1 AC and studden leath 3+5. Only 1 more AC in cost of mobility and skills and TOUCH AC. Also i though that mithrall chain shirt is most popular armor (anyway light armor).

And I 100% agree that rogues aren't best melees. That wasn't even their concept. But you mentioned that rangers won't have good AC to, and they can use shields ( although everybody agree that shields are weak anyway). And Will save is only weak ranger's save, what can be fixed by nice wisdom ( they need it for some other stuff too). I know that ranger isn't very good class, but compared too druids ec. nothing is unfortunately very good in D&D:smallfrown:
EDIT: To Telonius
I know that. I just don't know why onlly +1 from full plate is so good. If you have high dex you are much more mobile and have slighty less AC.

Shas aia Toriia
2007-05-25, 03:21 PM
Shas check PM. Let me know if that is a little odd to read.

Also, if you are looking for a build; do NOT multiclass this. It is beyond win the way that it is now. Your build for an archer with the Catfolk is a lot like mine as a Dust Para-Genasi. I went with:

Signature Style: Bow
Flaw(1, noncombatant [-2 penalty to melee): Rapid Shot
Flaw(2, Vulnerable [-1 penalty to AC) : Ranged Threat (Quintessential Elf.]) You threaten a 20' area with bow
1st Level: Combat Reflexes
3rd: Precise Shot
6th: Psionic Shot
8th (Class) Woodland Archer
9th: Shot on the Run
12th: True Beleiver (for the Raptor Arrows relic)
14th (Class): Manyshot
15th: Improved Rapid Shot
18th: Greater Psionic Shot
20th (Class) Penetrating Shot
21st (Epic) Epic Psionic Focus

Thanks, Quirinus, and thanks for the class you sent me. I could read it for the most part, buy how many power points do they get? Same as the Psychic Warrior, or something else.

It looks good and I'll probably take it, but in what order should I take feats assuming a non-psionic build?

Telonius
2007-05-25, 03:21 PM
EDIT: To Spiryt:

The basic test of armor is the Armor Bonus plus the Max Dex Bonus. The highest of those, wins, generally. The standard armor table gives you a pretty good idea of which armor is best: unmodified, it's Full Plate and Padded, since these add up to 9. But - and here's the big but - mithral throws this a bit out of alignment. It gives +2 to the max Dex. So suddenly Full Plate adds up to 11, Chain shirt to 10, and Breastplate to 10. Mithral can only apply to metal items, so padded is still stuck at 9, Studded Leather at 8. For various reasons (weight, armor check penalty, arcane spell failure, and 100gp in price) a Chain Shirt is generally better than a Breastplate. So pecking order for best armor goes: Full Plate, Chain Shirt, Breastplate, Padded. The problem with Full Plate is that there are certain classes (such as Ranger, Rogue ...) that can't use it because it counts as medium armor, and they're only proficient with light armor.

kemmotar
2007-05-25, 03:26 PM
Wearing heavy armor gives you only 8+1 AC and studden leath 3+5. Only 1 more AC in cost of mobility and skills and TOUCH AC. Also i though that mithrall chain shirt is most popular armor (anyway light armor).

Its not just about armor. For example a fighter can have full plate +8 armor AC and +1 dex AC. But that's not all. If he does that then he won't put more than 12 Dex thus giving him more HP. Also, fighters have proficiency with shields so that another +4 to AC. So a fighter can get an AC of 23 without so much as breaking a sweat. Now he can enchant both the shield and the armor for extra bonuses while the rogue can only enchant his armor. So with a +5 large steel shield and +5 full plate you get 33AC. Then you go on to natural armor (necklace +5 if you don't have already), deflection AC from a ring of shielding and if you want to go all out you can add +1 AC from haste plus any miss chances from spells in the armor like blur etc... so you can get 54 AC with approximately 100k. Plus the fighter has the HP to roll with this.

A rogue on the other hand has much more to spend his money on. Scrolls, potions (due to low HP), magic items with more specialized uses (fly, blur, obscuring mist, invisibility, greater invisibility, detect magic, non detection, undetectable alignment). Plus a rogue in melee would probably use two weapon fighting to maximizw sneak attack damage and would probably need a good bow to use when he cant get into melee.

A rogue will also use a lot of expendable items potions and scrolls, as mentioned before, but also magic arrows if archer. Btw does arrow magical modifier stack with bow magical modifier? For example, would a +1 arrow with a +1 bow result in a total +2 to attack roll?

Finally, yes fighters will then have lower touch AC but that's what they got HP and Fortitude save since weaponlike spells either deal massive damage or require a fortitude save. Thus they can easily avoid too much damage and (again) have the HP to roll with it. On the other hand rogues need to avoid those spells at all costs due to low HP and fort saves. On the other hand rogues easily avoid reflex save spells and have slippery mind ability for a reason...

Thus you can see that spell allocation is well provided for. Those easier to affect with weaponlike spells (ie heavily armored types) will have high HP and fortitude saves (since most weaponlike spells are of the scorching ray or disintigrate type). If a rogue does not have a high touch AC then a disintigrate could just send him to the grave in round 1. That's why casters dont have high BAB...so they cant hit anything they want...Well that's not entirely true thanks to truestrike but who cares right:smalltongue: ?

Spiryt
2007-05-25, 03:31 PM
Btw does arrow magical modifier stack with bow magical modifier? For example, would a +1 arrow with a +1 bow result in a total +2 to attack roll?

I'm sure that not. I will try to find it, its in SRD. It will be rather abusing, +4 bow and +4 arrow...


Ranged Weapons and Ammunition: The enhancement bonus from a ranged weapon does not stack with the enhancement bonus from ammunition. Only the higher of the two enhancement bonuses applies.
Ammunition fired from a projectile weapon with an enhancement bonus of +1 or higher is treated as a magic weapon for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. Similarly, ammunition fired from a projectile weapon with an alignment gains the alignment of that projectile weapon (in addition to any alignment it may already have).

Shas aia Toriia
2007-05-25, 03:39 PM
Another build I had a lot of fun and success with was an Elven Scout/ Order of the bow initiate. You move, get your skirmish, and with Order of the bow, you get a bunch of d8s added on as well. Higher levels, your range for all precision based damage (point blank shot, sneak attack, skirmish, and the Order's Precise attack or whatever it's called) bumps up to 60 feet. Pity he died horribly for plot reasons....

I was looking at that the other day, but there is a major flaw with it. It takes a standard action to do a precise shot. :smallannoyed: That prevents me from doing many attacks at any one point in time.


A rogue will also use a lot of expendable items potions and scrolls, as mentioned before, but also magic arrows if archer. Btw does arrow magical modifier stack with bow magical modifier? For example, would a +1 arrow with a +1 bow result in a total +2 to attack roll?

You know, I have always wondered that.

Since my GM and myself agreed that it would be too troublesome to keep track of the 500 arrows I'll have at any one time, so in a few levels I'll be questing for the Quiver of Infinite Arrows (only nonmagical, steel arrows). Do you guys have any idea of how I could get access to cold iron, or adamantine arrows at will? Perhaps if I paid for 5 times their cost (you have to put arrows in the quiver for it to produce more)?
Just a useless bit of trivia.

Spiryt
2007-05-25, 03:45 PM
I was looking at that the other day, but there is a major flaw with it. It takes a standard action to do a precise shot. :smallannoyed: That prevents me from doing many attacks at any one point in time.


If scout want to benefit his skirmish he anyway must shoot only with standard action. So it's not bad combination.

Shas aia Toriia
2007-05-25, 03:49 PM
That would work, but my build would then be about 10 Order of the Bow, maybe 5 scout 5 fighter?

Spiryt
2007-05-25, 03:52 PM
That would work, but my build would then be about 10 Order of the Bow, maybe 5 scout 5 fighter?

I'm very probably boring with my ranger, but do you have Spell Compendium? Ranger have many spells there, which work great with single Precise and skirmish shots.

Shas aia Toriia
2007-05-25, 03:58 PM
Come to mention it, I do, I just forgot to look in it, since coming into this I was assuming a more martial-oriented build.

Spiryt
2007-05-25, 04:12 PM
You really should check Spell Compendium!
Anyway,

Go Elf, grab a copy of Masters of the Wild and beg your DM to let you have Deepwood Sniper.

Let's face it, there is a reason that class never made it into 3.5; it is a little unbalanced...

This is good point. Deepwood sniper is probably best nonmagic archer, so if your GM has nothing against stuff never converted to 3.5 you should check it too (and of course if you/GM/somebody have Masters of the wild).

Shas aia Toriia
2007-05-25, 04:13 PM
Isn't that class in Complete Warrior or something?

Spiryt
2007-05-25, 04:15 PM
Isn't that class in Complete Warrior or something?
Deepwood sniper? I'm afraid that Prince_of_Cats is right: never made into 3.5.

Shas aia Toriia
2007-05-25, 04:22 PM
Alright then, in that case could someone send me a link?
I look forward to the cheesy-goodness! :smallbiggrin:

kemmotar
2007-05-25, 04:33 PM
About the quiver, you can probably convince your DM to houserule an item with infinite items of a type by multiplying the cost of the quiver with infinite normal arrows with the cost for each stack of non-normal arrows. Since a stack of arrows (namely 20 arrows) cost 1 gp, you can get the price of the new item by multiplying, in the case of adamantite arrows, by multiplying the cost by 60 (since a stack of 20 adamantite arrows costs 60 gp) and follow suit for the rest of the arrow types.

This however is completely economically non-viable since you will never find such a big amount of monsters requiring infinite arrows of a type to actually compensate you for the amount of money you wasted on the item unless you actually hunt them or have a particular bad rp relationship with them...

Shas aia Toriia
2007-05-25, 04:39 PM
I'm not actually buying this quiver, I'm questing for it, where it will likely be part of some big end treasure, with lots of GP and XP on the way.

kemmotar
2007-05-25, 05:06 PM
It all depends on how your party divides loot.
If there is an item that nobody else can use and only you can and then you get for free then yes, by all means. If however you each take an "equal" number of items and excess items are sold and share gp then i would suggest selling it:smallyuk:
It's usefulness is limited unless your DM constantly throws stuff with DR that can be surpassed with materials and not with magic...though i doubt that would ever be the case...
You can just count how many arrows you use in each encounter and subtract them from the total after the encounter...just don't say after...oh gosh...i used more arrows than i had...hehe

in any case, such arrows are useful to have around but not in great quantities since demons and devils that have DR that can be passed by cold iron and whatever the other was, can also be harmed just as well with magical weapons...so if you're gonna ask for something cool ask for an oathbow...invaluable:smallbiggrin:

Spiryt
2007-05-25, 05:11 PM
Alright then, in that case could someone send me a link?
I look forward to the cheesy-goodness! :smallbiggrin:

I'm not sure what you understand by " a link". You can surely get Masters of the Wild by torrent... Edition 3.0 is no more but is still illegal however. At least i think so.

Quirinus_Obsidian
2007-05-25, 06:17 PM
Thanks, Quirinus, and thanks for the class you sent me. I could read it for the most part, buy how many power points do they get? Same as the Psychic Warrior, or something else.

It looks good and I'll probably take it, but in what order should I take feats assuming a non-psionic build?

Well, this is a Psionic class first and foremost. It has the same powers known and power point progression as a Psychic Warrior I beleive, and also has Wisdom as it's manifesting stat. I built mine for more of a role-play application, like his "sniper" shots are going to be with psionic shot and greater psionic shot.

If I were not going to take a Psionic build, I would go the crossbow signature style, and go for sniping. Shot on the Run, woodland archer, etc. feats along those lines are awesome for that. Rapid Reload is a MUST at level one as a 1st level feat if you go with Crossbow. If your DM allows taking Weapon Spec and other Fighter Only feats as a non-Fighter, than I would take Weapon Focus, Weapon Spec, and Ranged Weapon Mastery. Heck I would take the 4 fighter levels to get that anyway. That would be the only multiclassing I would do, and you get the added benefit of the fighter Fort save.

Think that you also get 1/2 your WIS mod to Deflection AC against ranged attacks (even though it says Arrows); it's like a passive "Deflect Arrows" feat. He also gets his Wis mod to attack rolls when he is psionically focused for a # of rounds = to his Marksman level; that is also huge if you pump up WIS.

Shas aia Toriia
2007-05-25, 06:30 PM
Spyrit, I mean I don't have easy access to Masters of the Wild right now, but I assume it is on a website somewhere. I'm requesting a link to that page. But it that isn't available, just tell me.

Quirinus, by non-psionic I meant if I go for the ranger-scout deal.

kemmotar
2007-05-25, 09:11 PM
I don't think that your DM would or should allow a 3.0 book anyway...so i wouldn't bother...it aint fun when you're just abusing the rules to do insane things like pun pun and others...ok, it won't be the same as pun pun just cause you're using masters of the wild...it's not fun if the encounters aren't a challenge even...is it?

Shas aia Toriia
2007-05-26, 06:15 AM
True, but it also isn't fun when everyone in the party is twice as strong as you.

kemmotar
2007-05-26, 09:31 AM
True, but it also isn't fun when everyone in the party is twice as strong as you.

Then you go bard so nobody cares about how strong you are...your only function is party face and a few buffs:smallbiggrin:

Shas aia Toriia
2007-05-26, 12:32 PM
:smallbiggrin: I actually enjoy playing bards!:smalltongue: