PDA

View Full Version : character alignment question (players of Trouble Brewing -- stay out!)



rrwoods
2015-10-12, 03:16 PM
The concept: An assassin (but not necessarily an Assassin) who does what must be done when law-abiding men can't.

The (level 3) character was recently (at level 1) initiated into an organization dedicated to doing such things. The existence of the organization is not known to many, though some of the high-ups in town may know of it and even enlist its services (I and my character are both not sure on this point but strongly suspect it). The character's initiation rite was a "kill this mark, we will explain why afterward" mission, which he accepted, but not without asking the question anyway. The question was respected -- those who simply kill without question would not be regarded highly anyway. Nonetheless, as a test of loyalty to the ideal (that what must be done, must be done, even when you don't know why), the question was also left unanswered.

Despite the existence of this organization being left as yet unknown to the rest of the party (kudos to my DM on this and many other aspects of this campaign), this ended up being easier than I expected, as said mark ended up revealing himself as an impostor and trying to kill us.

My DM asked me some questions to help flesh out my background:

Q: You kill people for a living, but you are no simple murderer. No, you are an assassin. You kill with a purpose, and direction, and those that employ you are just as important as the deeds themselves that you carry out. Who do you serve?
A: I serve a cause. Death is a tool. There are some things more important than laws and kingdoms, and some threats to the greater order that cannot simply be reasoned with. Others might shun me if they knew of the blood on my hands, but I know my calling is true.

Q: How long have you been with your order?
A: I recently joined, and this mission will be my final test for full acceptance.

Q: An element of your training stands out to you; what was it?
A: My weapons training was especially intensive. So intensive that some of my training involved the mystical, bordering on magical.

==

So originally, I envisioned this character as LN. Serving the balance, etc. The Lawful component didn't represent strict adherence to literal laws, but rather strict adherence to an ideal, which qualifies (qualified?) as lawful to me when I made the character.

However after reading Red Fel (...Red Fel! Red Fel!) give advice on several threads over the last few months, I'm wondering if LN really describes this character. The surge of alignment-handbook threads has been the straw that broke the camel's back on asking this question: Am I Really Neutral?

If I am actually LN, I feel the "Patriot" archetype most fits here -- especially given James Bond as the example. I'm a character serving a secret(ish) organization with the means to operate above/outside the written law, and kill who needs killing. I'm 6 Charisma, which Mr. Bond definitely is not -- but like Bond, I have a somewhat tough time making actual friends, and adhere to many principles. "The mission matters more than anything else." I am "expected to engage in all sorts of questionable or immoral behavior in pursuit of the interests of" balance.

But! The "Dark Knight" archetype in the LE handbook (of course, written by Red Fel (****, that's four, am I dead now?)) seems to fit pretty well too -- maybe even better than the "Patriot" archetype. Willing to do what the Good characters can't. Putting the party (and the ideal) ahead of myself (even with 6 Cha). And in general, the description of Evil as "ruthlessly pragmatic" is very compelling here. Mentally recasting evil as [a] necessary [evil] (hah!... ok, sorry.) rather than as the stark opposite of all that is Good has shed new light (darkness?) on what this character might be.

So, Playground, I ask you:

As the assassin, killing who needs killing because they need killing, what alignment am I?

Honest Tiefling
2015-10-12, 03:29 PM
Your post was informative, but I think the alignment is a murky one. I would say that it hinges a lot upon exactly how far would the character go to achieve their goals. Would they torture? Not just breaking an arm, but sick things done in a soundproof room? Would they kill the child of a mark to draw them out, knowing that the child has done nothing? Would they burn down every other city in the world, just to ensure the happiness and well-being of their own?

Also depends on how far the organization itself would go, I think. Your character may not be fully aware of it, but I think it does have a bearing on not the character's own alignment, but their place within the story. (I assume given the warning there are other characters.)

SangoProduction
2015-10-12, 03:34 PM
On the good-evil axis: Do you serve to empower yourself, or explicitly to promote evil (evil), serve just to serve, or preserve perhaps (neutral), or serve because there's a greater good in serving or to promote general well-being (good)?

On the lawful-chaos axis: Does he love freedom above all else? He'd be chaotic. Willing to follow, but also to break, rules, or rules are loosely defined? Neutral. Does he stick to strict rules (or even laws of the land)? Lawful

And of course, these are generalities. Also, don't let your alignment get in to your head. Alignments are self-contradictory, as RAW shows again and again and again. They aren't chains and shackles. Alignments are instead like make-up.

I'd say your current description is definitely lawful. Killing innocents is evil, but from your description, that is not what you are doing. Protecting innocents, however, is good.

If your character doesn't know who and why he is killing, then he'd at the very least, be amoral (though...not neccesarily evil) assuming he doesn't have good reasons to suspect that his employers are actually making sure the targets are not innocent.

rrwoods
2015-10-12, 05:23 PM
I'm certainly not looking for my alignment to be a straitjacket; quite the contrary. I already know my character's motivations and aspirations. I'm just looking to have the most accurate two letters written on my character sheet; besides, it's an interesting academic discussion anyway.

Torture? No. At least, not without a real good explanation and no effective alternative.
Kill the child of a mark? Slightly more likely than torture, but only marginally.
Burn down all other cities? N/A; the organization is more concerned with worldly matters than local matters. However: No.

Serving to "preserve" is probably closest among those options, though "greater good" has always been a short step from "balance" in my mind, and so that muddies things further.
He values freedom/rules for what they contribute to completing his mission -- but then again, the mission comes first, which in itself is "law"ful.

The thing that's been tickling my mind on this subject is the description of evil as "(ruthlessly) pragmatic". He's not necessarily ruthless, but he recognizes that sometimes (for example) an individual can be a threat to entire populations. Sometimes the Good folks (especially LG ones) want to solve the problem with the least harm possible, not just as a sensible default, but as an automatic first (or only!) tactic. Alth shakes his head at this, knowing that sometimes the Right Play is to eliminate the source of the problem, and he and his organization are willing to make the Right Play. Options are weighed solely for their merits regarding efficacy with respect to the situation at hand. If diplomacy is the Right Play, Alth is happy not to be involved. If eliminating someone is the Right Play, Alth is happy to carry out the task.

Really I see elements of all three G-E alignment aspects here: Alth acts (or chooses not to act) to assist in preventing harm befalling massive numbers of people; Alth acts to protect balance (and to a lesser extent, order); but Alth *acts*, when others won't.

SangoProduction
2015-10-12, 06:03 PM
Killing in and of itself is not evil in D&D. In fact, it's kind of run of the mill.

However, murder, as defined in Book of Vile Darkness "Murder is the killing of an intelligent creature for a nefarious purpose: theft, personal gain, perverse pleasure, or the like," is evil...but that's not what your character is doing.

A Ruthless Pragmatic, in my opinion would be closer to Neutral Evil or True Neutral, depending on just how "Ruthless" they are. Being pragmatic implies that you do what works best, which tends towards chaos...when it's convenient to do so.

Definition of Pragmatic: dealing with things sensibly and realistically in a way that is based on practical rather than theoretical considerations.

So, important question: If your character must make a choice, uphold your rules or save a reasonable number of people, which one would he choose? If you would choose the rules, then you're Lawful Neutral. Else, you're Lawful Good.

rrwoods
2015-10-12, 06:48 PM
So, important question: If your character must make a choice, uphold your rules or save a reasonable number of people, which one would he choose? If you would choose the rules, then you're Lawful Neutral. Else, you're Lawful Good.
With the caveat that an answer to such a question would always depend on specifics: Alth would (probably) choose to save a reasonable number of people. This would make him LG by your logic, but I have a tough time making Alth Good. All tactics that could be effective are on the table, including many I'd consider clearly Not Good. Deception (including deception of other party members or other people "close" to Alth when it's necessary) is at the top of the list; usually physical rather than verbal (Hide/Move Silently bonuses in the healthy teens from level 1, and no Cha skills). The less your opponent knows about you, the better, and who is currently a party member might potentially be an opponent in the future. (I purposefully don't use the word "enemy"; all enemies are opponents but not all opponents are enemies. Someone with motivations opposite Alth's could still be a friend to him.)

The rest of the party mix may help provide context, as Alth's personality contrasts in interesting ways with other party members. We are a party of five; I'm estimating alignments:

Alth (me) -- ?? whisper gnome swordsage 3; focuses on Shadow Hand and values stealth and quick kills in combat; you know the personality.

Gau -- LG goliath crusader 2; tank/martial BFC; strongly respects authority, only bends rules when critically necessary (actually, the most not-Lawful thing we've witnessed him do is "accidentally" break down a door to a domicile which contained a bound and terrified innocent person).

Lin -- LG lesser aasimar cleric 3; healer/minor BFC, diplomat; technically an Exalted character (Poverty) but OOC has stated that breaking his Wow to save a life is very much on-the-table (also the DM is houseruling ahead of time that such an act can be atoned), overcommunicates sometimes (at least from Alth's perspective), compassionate, selfless.

Pelagius -- LG half-orc(?) cleric 3; beatstick/healer; strongly values tradition and strongly respect's others' traditions, we found a magical ring in a tomb (intended as loot) and Pelagius strongly insisted that we return it to its rightful owner (meeting no objections from the party) (and the DM awarded him a faith point), bonds quickly with potential allies and friends, strong sense of obligation when trouble befalls a friend or ally.

Laurell -- N human(?) wizard (conjurer) 3; BFC/summoner (going into Malconvoker); doesn't say much (he's played by someone who doesn't say much IRL either), knowledge is power, uncautiously curious, is probably hiding something. (not relevant to the contrasts I want to draw)


Alth contrasts with Lin and Gau in interesting ways pretty much every gaming session.

Gau is blunt where Alth is subtle; Gau's first inclination when something's amiss is "go to the cops" and Alth's is "who is out to get me it could be the cops". Alth wants desperately for Gau to see that the Right way isn't always the "right" way (and was impressed and mildly shocked when he broke down that door).

Lin has no secrets where Alth guards his secrets more fiercely than valuable treasures. Lin values openness and clarity where Alth values ... clarity. Lin reasons; Alth manipulates (or tries, when it's necessary).

Pelagius doesn't contrast as heavily, except maybe in methods. Pelagius is intimidating and strong; Alth is ... nowhere to be seen and his enemy is dead.


The strong contrasts with the first two of those characters are leading me away from Alth really being Good, but am I wrong here? I could be wrong! (It's happened before.) Anyway, thanks for taking the time to read this and make insightful responses, and thanks in advance to those who do so after this post too :)

SangoProduction
2015-10-12, 08:13 PM
Deception is often used by evil, but is not evil in itself. (I got that wrong too by reading too quickly, and thought it was rather silly, but meh, lol. Glad I was corrected.) And hiding is even less possibly evil. If anything, it limits collateral damage.

Alignment is more a slider than a hard and fast thing. You are not "as Good" as your companions, but you still value lives over rules while still valuing the rules. Your rules might be different from the norm, but you still stick to them and do it for the purpose of preventing people from causing mass chaos/destruction. They are the typical Goody-Two-Shoes "Good" by your descriptions, but that's not all that Good encompasses.