Is major image on 6th level slot permanent?

[stenver]

Major Image
Illusion, level 3
Components: V, S, M (a bit of fleece)
Casting Time: 1 action
Duration: Concentration, up to 10 minutes
Range: 120 feet

At Higher Levels. When you cast this spell using a spell slot of 6th level or higher, the spell lasts until dispelled, without requiring your concentration.


So does this mean that it is permanent or that it still only lasts 10 minute and you dont have to concentrate?

[Fwiffo86]

Major Image
Illusion, level 3
Components: V, S, M (a bit of fleece)
Casting Time: 1 action
Duration: Concentration, up to 10 minutes
Range: 120 feet

At Higher Levels. When you cast this spell using a spell slot of 6th level or higher, the spell lasts until dispelled, without requiring your concentration.


So does this mean that it is permanent or that it still only lasts 10 minute and you dont have to concentrate?

Runs it's full duration without needing concentration.

[MrUberGr]

Well, RAW it's permanent, since until dispelled means that someone has to actually dispel it. I'm fairly certain other spells say "lasts for X hours/days/etc OR until dispelled".

[NNescio]

Runs it's full duration without needing concentration.

No, it has an indefinite duration (lasts until dispelled) instead of the normal 10 minutes.

Compare this to others spells that don't require concentration:


If you cast this spell on the same creature or object every day for 30 days, placing the same effect on it each time, the illusion lasts until it is dispelled.



Duration: Until Dispelled


Duration: Until Dispelled

Clearly, "Until Dispelled" is a type of duration (an indefnite duration), and effectively makes the spell permanent. If Major Image were to act as you described, then the spell description would just say "Using a spell slot of 6th level or higher grants a duration that doesn’t require concentration" instead, similar to Bestow Curse.

RAI, this is intended to replace Permanent Image from DnD 3.x, which was a 6th level spell.


Major Image
Illusion, level 3
Components: V, S, M (a bit of fleece)
Casting Time: 1 action
Duration: Concentration, up to 10 minutes
Range: 120 feet

At Higher Levels. When you cast this spell using a spell slot of 6th level or higher, the spell lasts until dispelled, without requiring your concentration.


So does this mean that it is permanent or that it still only lasts 10 minute and you dont have to concentrate?

Yes, it's effectively permanent until dispelled.

[MaxWilson]

So does this mean that it is permanent or that it still only lasts 10 minute and you dont have to concentrate?

It means what it says: it's permanent until dispelled.

Note that Programmed Illusion is also 6th level and quasi-permanent. Programmed Illusion is more intelligent but also costs gold to cast.

[Blood of Gaea]

So does this mean that it is permanent or that it still only lasts 10 minute and you dont have to concentrate?


The book literally answers this question in clear English. :smalltongue:

At Higher Levels. When you cast this spell using
a spell slot of 6th level or higher, the spell lasts until
dispelled, without requiring your concentration.

"Until dispelled" Means someone deliberately has to get rid of it. In fact you couldn't even get rid of it as you normaly would, you'd have to cast dispel magic.

[snacksmoto]

The book literally answers this question in clear English. :smalltongue:
So does this mean that it is permanent or that it still only lasts 10 minute and you dont have to concentrate?

It's not literally clear, which is why the poster is asking. There is the implication of permanence "the spell lasts until dispelled" vs. the spell's listed duration "10 minutes".

Personally, stick with the rule of "specific trumps general". I would rule that if the spell is cast with a 6th level slot or higher the illusion lasts the full ten minutes as listed (unless prematurely dispelled), without the need for concentration. While RAW can be interpreted with the implication of permanence due to "until dispelled", it doesn't state that it is permanent. Therefore I would rule it as following the listed maximum duration in the spell stats, specifically ten minutes.

[Blood of Gaea]

It's not literally clear, which is why the poster is asking. There is the implication of permanence "the spell lasts until dispelled" vs. the spell's listed duration "10 minutes".

Personally, stick with the rule of "specific trumps general". I would rule that if the spell is cast with a 6th level slot or higher the illusion lasts the full ten minutes as listed (unless prematurely dispelled), without the need for concentration. While RAW can be interpreted with the implication of permanence due to "until dispelled", it doesn't state that it is permanent. Therefore I would rule it as following the listed maximum duration in the spell stats, specifically ten minutes.

I edited my post to clarify. I suppose you could read it that way, but can you explain why the would add "lasts until dispelled"?

That would be completely pointless to add on, because you could have dispelled it even if he was still concentrating on it.

[NNescio]

It's not literally clear, which is why the poster is asking. There is the implication of permanence "the spell lasts until dispelled" vs. the spell's listed duration "10 minutes".

Personally, stick with the rule of "specific trumps general". I would rule that if the spell is cast with a 6th level slot or higher the illusion lasts the full ten minutes as listed (unless prematurely dispelled), without the need for concentration. While RAW can be interpreted with the implication of permanence due to "until dispelled", it doesn't state that it is permanent. Therefore I would rule it as following the listed maximum duration in the spell stats, specifically ten minutes.

"Until dispelled" is a specific type of duration. Take a look at Imprisonment, Hallow, et al. And, as Blood of Gaea mentioned, if we read it your way, it would be completely pointless to add "lasts until dispelled" when "concentration is not required" would have sufficed. Instead they explicitly mention both. As a general rule, all spells can be dispelled anyway, so "last until dispelled" must be a specific rule modifying duration. Otherwise it's just redundant.

And, as I have mentioned, Nystul's Magic Aura has a similar wording, where "If you cast this spell on the same creature or object every day for 30 days, placing the same effect on it each time, the illusion lasts until it is dispelled." Again, if we read it your way, this does nothing. (Magic Aura, as a general rule, can already be dispelled.) Your reading of the RAW would be nonsensical when applied to another part of the rules written in the exact same way.

And finally, as I have already mentioned, RAI, casting Major Image with a 6th level spell slot is intended to replace Permanent Image from 3.x, which was basically a permanent version of Major Image.

As further proof of RAI, the Rise of Tiamat adventure supplement has the 'spell' Permanent Image. Guess what the spell description is?


Permanent Image
Refer to the “At Higher Levels” entry under the major image spell description

[snacksmoto]

I edited my post to clarify. I suppose you could read it that way, but can you explain why the would add "lasts until dispelled"?

That would be completely pointless to add on, because you could have dispelled it even if he was still concentrating on it.

I agree that "lasts until dispelled" is kind of pointless to add. If I had to guess, the writers and proofreaders had the concept of permanence already in mind that may have led to only implying permanence. Personally, RAW ten minutes no concentration, RAI permanent no concentration because it is a 6+ spell slot, still an illusion, can still be dispelled, and can still be discerned as an illusion.

*edit* If I were DM'ing the game, I'd run it RAI, permanent, despite seeing it 10 minutes RAW.

[DivisibleByZero]

Permanent.
"Until Dispelled" and "Permanent" are functionally equivalent.

https://twitter.com/calebrus44/status/642717625311719425

[stenver]

Thanks guys

[PoeticDwarf]

I'd say they mean 10 minutes no concentration but RAW just until dispelled.

[Dalebert]

It seems quite clear. 10 minutes is the default duration with a 3rd level slot. "Until dispelled" is the duration if you use a 6th level slot or higher. Permanent until dispelled seems like both RAW and RAI to me. If you still feel it's in doubt, someone could ask on sage advice but I don't understand why it would seem ambiguous.

[Mr.Moron]

The next to me reads to me as intending to override the normal duration. Ends on dispel is implied naturally by the fact it's a spell, this means "No longer requires concentration" would be the likely wording if all it was meant to do was free you from that restriction. The presence of "until dispelled" can really only be meaningful if that's the new duration, until dispelled whenver that may be in 1 minute or 1 year.

[Sigreid]

I read it as it lasts until some one or some thing acts and successfully dispels it. I interpret "permanent" as ongoing and can be suppressed temporarily but can't be completely removed without some really extreme actions on the order of what it would take to disenchant a magic item.

[DivisibleByZero]

There have been five posts here since I showed you what Crawford said about durations.
One of those five was a thank you from the OP, leaving four.
A few of those other four posters should go back and read it. One of those four even said that we won't know until someone asks on Sage, when in fact the twitter query/answer (which is what Sage uses) is exactly what I linked....

I'll repeat myself (and Crawford):
"Until Dispelled" and "Permanent" are functionally equivalent.