Pact of chain lock and magic resistance

[Ketiara]

I read in guides that pact of the chain warlocks gets advantage to saves against magic with their quasit, imp and psudodragon because of something from monsters manual. But I havnt figured out what its all about.

Can anyone help me out?

[Kryx]

Mearls says no magic resistance (https://twitter.com/mikemearls/status/625713874654748672?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw)

[Blood of Gaea]

I read in guides that pact of the chain warlocks gets advantage to saves against magic with their quasit, imp and psudodragon because of something from monsters manual. But I havnt figured out what its all about.

Can anyone help me out?

As Kryx said, nope. However a few ideas to help you out.
-Dark One's Own Luck, and Fiendish Resilience are both good defensive abilities, and Warlock.
-Sculptor of Flesh to Poly morph into something with spell resistance also works.
-The Lucky feat, you can use it like Dark One's Own Luck.
-Abjuration Wizards get Spell Resistance at level 14.

[Naanomi]

I'd allow a chain-lock to hunt down a familiar like a wizard could to share, but then the familiar is a 'free agent' just like a wizard's imp would be

[Mara]

I read in guides that pact of the chain warlocks gets advantage to saves against magic with their quasit, imp and psudodragon because of something from monsters manual. But I havnt figured out what its all about.

Can anyone help me out?

The entry in the MM says that their master will get magic resistance.

You are their master via Pact of the chain.

You get magic resistance.

EDIT: The devs suggest implementing house rules.

[SharkForce]

note: mearls is not an official source.

in any event, unless you're going to allow a chain pact warlock to have two familiars (one from the pact, one from making a deal with a creature) i'd say they should be able to get the magic resistance from their special familiar.

naturally, this would be accompanied by the familar attempting to tempt and corrupt the warlock and interpreting commands (when possible) in ways that the warlock may not appreciate. never directly *opposing* the order, of course, but an imp ordered to "distract a group of guards" may choose to do so by committing arson, for example...

[Strill]

The entry in the MM says that their master will get magic resistance.

You are their master via Pact of the chain.

You get magic resistance.

EDIT: The devs suggest implementing house rules.

The entry in the monster manual does not say that chainlocks get magic resistance. The magic resistance is listed under the VARIANT FAMILIAR rules. You get those features when you encounter one of those creatures in the wild, and convince it to serve you.

A creature summoned with Find Familiar uses completely different rules, as detailed in the Find Familiar spell entry.

Find Familiar and Variant Familiar are mutually exclusive, and have descriptions which directly contradict one another. For example, the Variant Familiar rules for a pseudodragon say that it acts independently and is free to leave you if it chooses. The rules for Find Familiar say that it always obeys your commands. There's no way to reconcile applying both of these to the same creature.

[Mara]

The entry in the monster manual does not say that chainlocks get magic resistance. The magic resistance is listed under the VARIANT FAMILIAR rules. You get those features when you encounter one of those creatures in the wild, and convince it to serve you. A creature summoned with Find Familiar uses completely different rules, as detailed in the Find Familiar spell entry.The variant is if the creature is a familiar. The creature is not normally a familiar. Since it is for pact of the chain, you use those rules.

[Strill]

The variant is if the creature is a familiar. The creature is not normally a familiar. Since it is for pact of the chain, you use those rules.

That's not what it says. "Some pseudodragons are WILLING to serve spellcasters as a familiar. Such pseudodragons have the following trait:" To contrast, a creature summoned with Find Familiar is completely subservient to the caster and cannot disobey. That's totally different from the variant familiar description.

If you're not going to read the actual entry, there's no point in continuing this discussion.

[Mara]

That's not what it says. "Some pseudodragons are WILLING to serve spellcasters as a familiar. Such pseudodragons have the following trait:" To contrast, a creature summoned with Find Familiar is completely subservient to the caster and cannot disobey. That's totally different from the variant familiar description.

If you're not going to read the actual entry, there's no point in continuing this discussion.
You're pretty angry about this for some reason.

One interpretation requires mental gymnastics. The other is what every guide writer concluded after reading the rules.

5e is not complicated. There are not different ways of being a familiar.

[Strill]

You're pretty angry about this for some reason.Yeah. Because I have to argue with someone who has absolutely no idea what they're talking about and is making up statements out of whole cloth.


One interpretation requires mental gymnastics. The other is what every guide writer concluded after reading the rules. Absolutely. Your interpretation requires mental gymnastics, because it fails to reconcile mutually exclusive statements.

Variant Familiar: "At any time and for any reason, the pseudodragon can end its service as a familiar, ending the telepathic bond."

Find Familiar: Your familiar "always obeys your commands."

How do you reconcile these two things as the same? For one, the bond from Find Familiar is not a "telepathic bond". It's a spell that summons and binds a spirit from another plane of existence. So how could a pseudodragon breaking a telepathic bond possibly end its service as a familiar? It can't. A spirit summoned as a pseudodragon via Find Familiar has no ability to dispel spells, nor any ability to return to its home plane. The variant familiar rules describe a living independent pseudodragon, not a spirit summoned with the Find Familiar spell.

Second, how can a pseudodragon choose to end its service as a familiar if it's forced to always obey its master's commands? It can't. The variant familiar rules describe a pseudodragon found in the wild which has its own independent ability to bond with a creature, which functions totally differently from the bond created by the Find Familiar spell. The wild pseudodragon who bonds under its own power is not under any compulsion to obey any command, but the pseudodragon summoned with find familiar is.

These are each describing two different types of familiars. One is a familiar bond created by a wild pseudodragon, and another is a familiar bond created from the Find Familiar spell. The rules for each are completely separate and independent.

[Mara]

I see no reason to think that there is different ways of being a familiar. Kinds of familiars are just different monsters. There is no such thing as ways of being (metaphysics).

You are still summoning a spirit that just has different forms it can be. It's mechanics are those of the form but it's personality is that of the spirit which follows your commands. The form grants magic resistance not the personality of the form.

[Strill]

I see no reason to think that there is different ways of being a familiar. Kinds of familiars are just different monsters. There is no such thing as ways of being (metaphysics).

You are still summoning a spirit that just has different forms it can be. It's mechanics are those of the form but it's personality is that of the spirit which follows your commands. The form grants magic resistance not the personality of the form.Read the monster manual entry and then come back and see if you can come up with a coherent argument.

[Mara]

Read the monster manual entry and then come back and see if you can come up with a coherent argument.
“Yes, a Jedi’s strength flows from the Force. But beware of the dark side. Anger, fear, aggression; the dark side of the Force are they. Easily they flow, quick to join you in a fight. If once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny, consume you it will, as it did Obi-Wan’s apprentice.”
– Yoda

[bid]

I see no reason to think that there is different ways of being a familiar. Kinds of familiars are just different monsters.
I think you are in the wrong here. The difference is obvious and you haven't tried to do anything but explain it away. Do you have an actual interpretation on how the 2 kinds of familiars are the same, and why being willing makes no difference?

[Mara]

I think you are in the wrong here. The difference is obvious and you haven't tried to do anything but explain it away. Do you have an actual interpretation on how the 2 kinds of familiars are the same, and why being willing makes no difference?

Familiar gained via negotiations has the original monster personality.

Familiar gained via spell is a conjured spirit shaped into the form desired. Said spirit's personality is subservient to the caster.

Imps/ect as familiars grant magic resistance to their master.

The difference between a negotiated imp familiar and a familiar gained via spell is their personality.

Personality defines how the creature behaves.

Granting magic resistance to their master is mechanical not behavioral.

Therefore pact of chain imps grant the warlock magic resistance.

[bid]

Familiar gained via negotiations has the original monster personality.

Familiar gained via spell is a conjured spirit shaped into the form desired. Said spirit's personality is subservient to the caster.

Imps/ect as familiars grant magic resistance to their master.

The difference between a negotiated imp familiar and a familiar gained via spell is their personality.

Personality defines how the creature behaves.

Granting magic resistance to their master is mechanical not behavioral.

Therefore pact of chain imps grant the warlock magic resistance.
Okay, that make sense. I don't agree with it but at least it makes sense.

I think your interpretation that "personality" is the only difference might be subtly wrong. But if we accept that the rest works fine.

Maybe both kind of familiar have a subtle difference similar to polymorph vs true polymorph or some other pair of concepts.

[Mara]

Okay, that make sense. I don't agree with it but at least it makes sense.

I think your interpretation that "personality" is the only difference might be subtly wrong. But if we accept that the rest works fine.

Maybe both kind of familiar have a subtle difference similar to polymorph vs true polymorph or some other pair of concepts.That is possibly the case.

As a DM though, I don't want to mess with subtle differences unless they are explicitly outlined in the PH, MM, or DMG.

My rulings are generally more permissive. So pact of the chain is balanced the way I run it and would be too weak with the other interpretation given my permissive rulings on skills, improvised actions, conjure spells, ect.

[Kryx]

@Mara: Could you please try to limit the debate on this topic so it doesn't go in every thread? I think people understand your opinion on it. A mention is enough, no need to debate it in each one.



On topic: Mearls is indeed not a rules source - I was just providing it with no further opinion.
I'm not really sure where I stand on the issue. Pact of the Chain definitely feels weak, but that could be a factor of Pact of the Tome (w/ book of ancient secrets) being too strong.

[kaoskonfety]

As written I'd point at the rules outlined in Warlock for their familiars and say "You get that". This does not include the magic resistance because its doesn't say it does.

In play I would 100% allow a player to pick up the MM version instead with the understanding:

"You can choose - the find familiar variant of warlock pact feature OR you can get a free willed agent variant as a quite loyal/instructed by their superiors to guide you and be your ally, his name is Corin Deeth and they are here to help you to 'Do Evil, Better.' "

They may not always be there, they have their own agenda and while they generally obey your orders its for their reasons and in their way, not yours. Basically its a story flaw (ala Ars Magica where "story flaw" means making the DM's job easier at your minor expense) for a mechanical benefit

If the player angles "too goody-goody" for the fiends taste for too long they leave - and the warlock can summon a new, totally from the book default no magic resistance but still kinda good familiar. Or they can find Corin and kiss and make up... whatever that entails.