How terrible is that character idea ?

[Aetol]

Hi everyone,

My group just had session 0 of a new 3.5 campaign. During character creation, the DM told us that monstrous races were allowed, so I decided to make a Natural Werewolf Warblade. We are starting at level 7, which makes it a Warblade 2 Lycanthrope 2 LA 3.

Now, we haven't started the game itself, so I have about one week to think it over and possibly make a different character. While lycanthropy makes for a pretty neat character concept RP-wise, the more I think about this build the more I'm afraid it would be absolutely useless in combat. The stat boosts and DR are nice, but don't seem to be worth the LA and the racial HDs.

But I've pretty much no experience with monstrous races, so I want to know whether this build idea is :
A) absolutely terrible, I should scrap it at once and make something without LA ?
B) merely suboptimal, nothing some charOp can't mitigate ? I should point out that my group is hardly powergamey. Some are new at D&D, and at least one other player also went crazy over monstrous races and made a +3 LA Wizard.
C) actually not bad, lycanthropy is somehow worth the +3 LA and 2 HD ? (Let's not kid ourselves, I'm only including this for the sake of completeness.)

All (constructive) opinions and suggestions are welcome !

[nedz]

If you are in a low OP group then it will probably be fine. You can always retire the character and create a new one if it doesn't work out.

Ed:
LA and RHD are fairly balanced at low levels of char OP. The issues come at higher levels of optimisation because you cannot optimise RHD or LA. 2 RHD with +3 LA is quite a lot though.

You could look at Savage Progressions here (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040117a). This would allow you to break up the RHD and LA and since you never have to finish the Savage Progressions you can have more class levels.

[Kafana]

A) absolutely terrible, I should scrap it at once and make something without LA ?
B) merely suboptimal, nothing some charOp can't mitigate ? I should point out that my group is hardly powergamey. Some are new at D&D, and at least one other player also went crazy over monstrous races and made a +3 LA Wizard.

I'd say it is somewhere in between. LA is almost never worth it, especially when it's above +1. That being said, if your group is not into minmaxing then I say go for it for the sake of RP. If you feel like you're really underpowered in combat speak with your DM to either reduce the LA by 1 or give you some custom powers to mitigate this.

[Andezzar]

There has recently been a similar topic (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?448551-Lycanthropy-Racial-Hit-Die). Yes, being a lycanthorpe is a suboptimal concept. The optimization skills of the other players will determine whether the character can still contribute in a meaningful way.

[AvatarVecna]

Let's start out where this should start out: if this is the character you're wanting to play, and you're okay with the stats not being too impressive, and the other players won't overshadow you to an extent that you'd mind, feel free to have fun playing your character concept. If you want to play Wolf-Man the Barbarian, you do you bro. Now, assuming you want something a bit more optimal, here's some thoughts on the matter.

Racial HD and LA are, whether on their own or together, almost universally worse than class levels. The exceptions are few: Half-Minotaur is an LA +1 template that increases your size, gives a huge bonus to Str, and gives a decent bonus to Con; for a melee monster, that's about as good as it gets, without taking into account LA +0 templates. The big problem with these things is that the bonuses they give are balanced with the lower levels in mind: you can't let a player start with centaur stats at level 1, but when they're ECL 15, the RHD and LA aren't really pulling their weight, even with LA buyoff.

LA gives you nothing, period. No BAB, no saves, no feats. It's nothing more than empty levels forced on you in an attempt to preserve game balance; this attempt utterly fails, overdoing it to the point that anything interesting is also unplayable, and the game is still unbalanced because magic is bull****. RHD is slightly better, but racial abilities are almost always worse than class abilities. There are a handful of decent race types: undead have a pile of immunities, and Con -, which lets you dump it at character creation (assuming you're using point-buy); dragons often have wonderful class abilities, and their RHD are pretty decent too. Outsiders have some interesting Alter Self shenanigans, and that's on top of their RHD coming with full BAB, all good saves, and 8 skill points per level. Beyond that...RHD sucks, outside of some more specific cases.

[Troacctid]

Warblade is a great class, and getting half initiator levels makes the RHD not so bad, but the +3 LA is not remotely worth it here. The werewolf template is not balanced for PCs and it will screw you over pretty badly. Not to mention the forced alignment shift thing, which is awkward. I say don't do it.

If you want to be a werewolf, consider Quasilycanthrope (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mb/20040721a) instead. It's a less impactful template, but it's only +1 LA, which is much, much more reasonable. You get some minor shapeshifting, and DR 10/silver, which should serve you pretty well, as silver weapons are fairly uncommon and 10 is quite a lot of DR. If you want additional shapeshifting power, you can take levels in Warshaper, which is an actual good class.

If you really want to experiment with high-ECL monstrous races, you need to get better bang for your buck. There aren't many options that are worthwhile. The only one I can think of is Marrulurk, a jackal-headed race from Sandstorm that has good ability scores, +1 LA, and three RHD that are really more like levels of the sneak attack Fighter variant. Its stats are better for a Swordsage than a Warblade, though.

[edwin1993]

if you went afflicted instead of natural level adjustment would be a +2 instead and youd have another class level only good thing about natural is you can make more werewolves

[Andezzar]

The DR is also greater.

[Spore]

if you went afflicted instead of natural level adjustment would be a +2 instead and youd have another class level only good thing about natural is you can make more werewolves

This. I would possibly optimize Diplomacy and lead a pack of werewolves. Why should they follow the guy who infected them with a terrible disease?

You help them control their new power. You help them free themselves from their oppressors. You give them strength were needed. Why would I think that reasoning works? The average joe of D&D is powerless against anything with class levels and/or additional attributes. You help them gain RHD, attributes (physical prowess) and the only they have to pitch in is time (and possibly their humanity, but we all have a price to pay, don't we?).

That way you can very well play into the Leadership feat if your power should fall behind that far. I feel the Leadership feat is very needed for mundane or low optimized builds to compete with high level spellcasters. A 15th level wizard still wins against a pack of werewolves, even if they are led by a 12th level warblade/natural werewolf. But you can have agents everywhere. You can have a lot of class diversity in your following (and it doesn't even impact the game that much when you do things off screen or don't outshine the professionals in your group).

That being said, avoid the Leadership feat and keep that story purely fluffwise when your group is low op.

[Dread_Head]

If you want to be a werewolf, consider Quasilycanthrope (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mb/20040721a) instead. It's a less impactful template, but it's only +1 LA, which is much, much more reasonable. You get some minor shapeshifting, and DR 10/silver, which should serve you pretty well, as silver weapons are fairly uncommon and 10 is quite a lot of DR. If you want additional shapeshifting power, you can take levels in Warshaper, which is an actual good class.

I second this option but I would recommend combining it with the Shifter Race (RoE and MMIII) who are sort of watered down lycanthropes and going LA 1 / Warblade 2 / Barbarian 2 / Warblade 1 / Weretouched Master 1 to start and finishing off Weretouched Master before entering Bloodclaw Master. You will get all the abilities (albeit gradually) of being a lycanthrope of your choice but on a significantly better chassis. Take Spirit Wolf Totem (CC) and Wolf Totem (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#wolfTotemClassFeatures ) on your barbarian levels for the wolfy theme.

[Spore]

edit: Something slipped my mind. How about the Skinwalker race from Pathfinder (LA = 0, because Lesser Aasimar would be weaker than the Pathfinder Aasimar and has more race points and is more powerful in general than this race): http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/other-races/more-races/standard-races-1-10-rp/skinwalkers-10-rp

[Aetol]

Thanks everybody for taking the time to help me out.

Re : play the character I want to play. This is an answer I expected, of course. However, I've had a bad experience in last year's campaign (which also happened to be my first D&D game ever) with a subpar, needlessly complex build, so I'm afraid of repeating the same mistake now. This character would have RP value though, so that's a plus.

Re : infected lycanthrope. That was my first idea, but the DM ruled that he would enforce the alignment shift caused by embracing the curse. (While the natural lycanthrope's alignment, being a racial alignment, can be safely ignored. I did not dare press the issue further.) I don't really want to play a CE character, and I'm not sure I could do so without being exceedingly disruptive to the party, so it's natural or nothing.

Re : alternate build. One problem with that is we are limited, per DM decision, to just one class/race/feat/etc. that is not from the base game or the ToB (not sure exactly where the PHB 2 and the MM 2/3/4 stand). So I don't have too much wiggle room.

Savage progression might be just what I need, though. Thanks for the suggestion, I'll be telling my DM about it.

[Andezzar]

Re : infected lycanthrope. That was my first idea, but the DM ruled that he would enforce the alignment shift caused by embracing the curse. (While the natural lycanthrope's alignment, being a racial alignment, can be safely ignored. I did not dare press the issue further.) I don't really want to play a CE character, and I'm not sure I could do so without being exceedingly disruptive to the party, so it's natural or nothing.Are you set on a werewolf? There are other werecreatures with different forced alignments. Werebears for example are lawful good.


Re : alternate build. One problem with that is we are limited, per DM decision, to just one class/race/feat/etc. that is not from the base game or the ToB (not sure exactly where the PHB 2 and the MM 2/3/4 stand). So I don't have too much wiggle room.That's a really weird restriction. Did he explain why he imposed it?

[Rebel7284]

One way to optimize Lycanthropy is to chose a better animal. With Fleshraker being considered an amazing animal in general, a Werefleshraker would probably stay viable a good amount longer. Also being a raptor is pretty epic. May or may not be worth it if it limits your sources.

Of course if LA buyoff rules from Unearthed Arcana are on the table, LA becomes a lot less painful in the long run.

There was a particular class that was good for Lycanthropes that was errated into uselessness somewhere.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Of course if LA buyoff rules from Unearthed Arcana are on the table, LA becomes a lot less painful in the long run.

LA buy off goes off of class levels, so a natural werewolf could get the first point of buy off at ECL 14. That is a large enough drop he may never catch up.

Rule of thumb: monstrous races are good for having something fun and different and tend to be weak.

As another option what about Anthropomorphic Animals? Anthropomorphic wolf does you little good but there are other options there.

[Aetol]

Are you set on a werewolf? There are other werecreatures with different forced alignments. Werebears for example are lawful good.

One way to optimize Lycanthropy is to chose a better animal. With Fleshraker being considered an amazing animal in general, a Werefleshraker would probably stay viable a good amount longer. Also being a raptor is pretty epic. May or may not be worth it if it limits your sources.

I prefer to stick with the werewolf. More traditional, I guess.


That's a really weird restriction. Did he explain why he imposed it?

We had a munchkin in last year's group (same DM) who made a ridiculously overpowered character by pulling stuff from a ton of sources. He's trying to avoid that.


Of course if LA buyoff rules from Unearthed Arcana are on the table, LA becomes a lot less painful in the long run.

How does LA buyoff interact with Savage Progression, anyway ? Are the "lycanthrope levels" still considered LA ?

Besides, as Zamiel points out, it comes in play very late at 3 LA. Based on last year's campaign, I expect I will reach (total) level 15, 17 tops.

[Andezzar]

We had a munchkin in last year's group (same DM) who made a ridiculously overpowered character by pulling stuff from a ton of sources. He's trying to avoid that.What's the bar for overpowered? Wizard 20 or lower?


How does LA buyoff interact with Savage Progression, anyway ? Are the "lycanthrope levels" still considered LA ?They count as class levels.

[AvatarVecna]

We had a munchkin in last year's group (same DM) who made a ridiculously overpowered character by pulling stuff from a ton of sources. He's trying to avoid that.

Overpowered is a relative term. I could make a Wizard using nothing but Core and still wipe the floor with all but the most min-maxed of martial builds here ITP.

[LTwerewolf]

Druid with bite of the were-X from spell compendium accomplishes the lycanthrope feel, and you can throw warblade (or swordsage) on top of that should you so choose.

[Andezzar]

Bite of the Were-X requires a considerable investment in druid levels (at least 3 for bite of the wererat up to 11 for bite of the werebear). At that point, why not stick with druid or some druid PrC?

[LTwerewolf]

Bite of the Were-X requires a considerable investment in druid levels (at least 3 for bite of the wererat up to 11 for bite of the werebear). At that point, why not stick with druid or some druid PrC?

Because the op mentioned they wanted to be a martial initiator.


In addition to bite of the were-X you can also use the shapeshift acf in phb2.

[Ruethgar]

If you want to keep the theme switch to a Hengeyokai dog. LA +0 and can easily be fluffed to be a lycanthrope. Not as powerful but much more worth it for what you do.

Also, werewolves have Savage Progression levels which are class levels and level adjustments so you can take one level wearwolf two levels of other then buyoff, then werewolf 2, buyoff(since you only have one LA now and going in with 3 class levels) then werewolf 3 and buyoff.

[Spore]

All that being said, if someone executes the workarounds poorly it might be perceived as being Munchkin which OP wants to avoid.