What's the best narrative system you know ?

[Voidstalker]

Hello there.
So basically, my first brush up with a diceless system was Nobilis. Since then, I've been wondering how much bigger the world out there is than D&D. Basically, I'm interested in knowing what, in your opinion, is the best system you've seen/experienced for bringing out narration, and having as little dice mechanics as possible.
Thanks !

[Eisenheim]

fate doesn't exactly have less mechanics, but the mechanics are narratively driven and serve the story rather than clashing with it. that's mostly what I play nowadays.

[Dizlag]

I just played Dungeon World with my daughters for the first time last week and I must say it was pretty awesome. Very, very narrative with very little mechanics ... roll 2d6 and look at your "Moves" for other information.

Although, the new Star Wars RPG has a lot of mechanics and crunchiness like D&D, the narrative dice system is simply brilliant. Never before have I had everyone at the table engaged in what's going on and contributing to the story as in this system. I love it!

[Milo v3]

Window, it's actually so simple you can read the entire ruleset in 10 minutes (including optional rules), but still allows you to play an immense number of narratives.

[Knaight]

Microscope. There is absolutely no dice rolling, it's all sorts of narrative, and the core concept is interesting enough that even people who tend to favor more traditional games often like it. Basically, it's a non-chronological collaborative timeline building game.

[JellyPooga]

I'm going to second Fate.

There's a fair bit of dice-rolling, but all it does is feed the narration rather than dictate it. You, the players (including the GM) decide what happens in every scenario, at every dice roll.

Wushu has a similar thing going on, but I don't think it's as well thought out as Fate.

[Loki_42]

As far as more traditional games with a more narrative focus, Powered by the Apocalypse is my absolute favorite style of game, and Apocalypse World basically changed the way I think about games. Monsterhearts is the perfect example of how to refine an engine to fit your game's themes, and the upcoming Fellowship looks to be 100% of everything I've ever wanted in a fantasy rpg.

When you get into the more completely narrative design, all I really have experience with is Fiasco and Law's Out, but both of those are great.

[Amechra]

Shall we go needlessly obscure? (http://web.archive.org/web/20111111023959/http://imago.hitherby.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/projects-a-manual-of-ambition.pdf)

Or, for a rather... interesting game. (http://lumpley.com/index.php/anyway/thread/462)

Heck, if you can wrangle up a copy of Sorcerer, I'd suggest it.

[Mutazoia]

I can't believe nobody's mentioned "Amber" (or it's latest (sans Zalazney) incarnation "Lords of Gossamer and Shadow") yet. No dice involved at all, so the game is completely narrative.

[Human Paragon 3]

Lady Blackbird (http://www.onesevendesign.com/ladyblackbird/) is a great story-based game where the dice rolling matters, but the players have the ability to determine what their abilities actually mean. You can do literally anything, and you gain XP by acting in character instead of fighting.

Forsooth (http://spoiledflushgames.com/games/forsooth/) which is a game I designed is GM-less and Dice-less. You improvise a Shakespeare play, and the game ends when the protagonists are all married or dead.=\

[CarpeGuitarrem]

Since you've played Nobilis, check out Chuubo's Marvellous Wish-Granting Engine. It's an absolutely phenomenal diceless game driven by narrative pacing that handles a wide variety of dramas. It's also the only game that I've successfully seen handle slice-of-life shows.

[Beleriphon]

I love Risus. It can be utterly silly, and too a degree is geared towards goofy characters because of how free form it the character create gets. Also, Risus is free. http://www222.pair.com/sjohn/risus.htm

As an example:

So lets say we have Ragnar the Drunk Viking (this both the character's name and class).
Ragnar then has skilltributes (I invented a word, get over it) with values not exceeding 10 (1, 2, 3, 4 is common).
Drunkest Viking this Side of Valhalla (4)
Stabbingest Viking that Lives (3)
Good Sailor (2)
Beautiful Singing Voice (1)

And there's a Viking warrior par excellence.

[Mutazoia]

I love Risus. It can be utterly silly, and too a degree is geared towards goofy characters because of how free form it the character create gets. Also, Risus is free. http://www222.pair.com/sjohn/risus.htm

As an example:

So lets say we have Ragnar the Drunk Viking (this both the character's name and class).
Ragnar then has skilltributes (I invented a word, get over it) with values not exceeding 10 (1, 2, 3, 4 is common).
Drunkest Viking this Side of Valhalla (4)
Stabbingest Viking that Lives (3)
Good Sailor (2)
Beautiful Singing Voice (1)

And there's a Viking warrior par excellence.


Sounds a bit like the rule-set from TFOS (Teenagers From Outer Space)

[Voidstalker]

Awesome, wasn't expecting so many answers ! I'm def taking notes on this, thanks so much :)

[Aleolus]

I like the storytelling options presented in BESM (Big Eyes Small Mouth) myself. Its a d20 game similar to Mutants and Masterminds, though it is currently owned by White Wolf

[Grod_The_Giant]

There's a fair bit of dice-rolling, but all it does is feed the narration rather than dictate it. You, the players (including the GM) decide what happens in every scenario, at every dice roll.
Yeah thaaaat's not really true. Or at least no more than it is in any other system. Fate's mechanics are certainly very narrative, based on story logic more then realism, and they (sort of) encourage extra engagement with the world and characters, but once the dice come out it's exactly the same "roll, add a number and try to beat the DC" as any other system.

[Knaight]

...once the dice come out it's exactly the same "roll, add a number and try to beat the DC" as any other system.

This is how Fate works, but that's absolutely not how I'd characterize "any other system". For instance, that wouldn't be how the dice are used in Fiasco at all, and that's before getting into more nitpicky things which do work out to "here's a varying difficulty of rolling, roll better", where that could mean things like rolling a variable number of dice and trying to at least a certain number of them above a static number.

[DDogwood]

While dice mechanics aren't necessary at all for an RPG, it's my personal opinion that an RPG without dice verges uncomfortably close to "let's tell a story together!" and loses the "G" part of "RPG". In my experience, they are even more prone to encouraging heavy-handed GMing than more traditional RPGs (which is saying a lot!).

I'll give another shout-out to Dungeon World and other PbtA games as my personal favorite balance between narrative freedom and "still a game". The dice mechanics are simple and consistent, and don't even need to come up very often, but provide enough randomness to keep everyone surprised at where the story ends up going.

[Gamgee]

Numenera is as close as I've hosted. Other than free form itself if you can find a good regular group (usually better online).

Numenera has a very light system to it (roll a single d20, gm rolls almost none), and now it comes in generic cypher system for all your custom setting needs. It puts the focus on the story and players.

[Grod_The_Giant]

This is how Fate works, but that's absolutely not how I'd characterize "any other system". For instance, that wouldn't be how the dice are used in Fiasco at all, and that's before getting into more nitpicky things which do work out to "here's a varying difficulty of rolling, roll better", where that could mean things like rolling a variable number of dice and trying to at least a certain number of them above a static number.
True. words words words

[Knaight]

While dice mechanics aren't necessary at all for an RPG, it's my personal opinion that an RPG without dice verges uncomfortably close to "let's tell a story together!" and loses the "G" part of "RPG". In my experience, they are even more prone to encouraging heavy-handed GMing than more traditional RPGs (which is saying a lot!).

Seeing as there's pretty heavy overlap between diceless and GMless, I'd disagree with this. Microscope stands out here again - it's absolutely a game, and there's plenty of structure to it. It just doesn't involve dice.

[TheOOB]

in your opinion, is the best system you've seen/experienced for bringing out narration, and having as little dice mechanics as possible.
Thanks !

Those are separate things, 13th Age is very mechanically dense for a game system(being a d20 system), but has ton of mechanics that bring out a lot of narrative. One of the most important stats of your characters is about your relationship to powerful people in the world.

[Poll Comics]

Another early RPG worth checking out- if you can find copies of it- is Everyway. The theories it was built on were influential in a lot of later indie RPG systems. It has three systems built into into for conflict resolution: Drama (what's most interesting for the story?), Fortune (draw a card from a tarot-like deck- what does is say about the situation?), and Karma (compare stats, as modified by the situation).

If you're going to be playing with a group that traditionally runs DnD and want to introduce them to more narrative play, my go-to is Lacuna. It has an incredible setting built on a robust mystery- easy rules that make it easy to slip into a narrative game style.


For pure narrative play, my all-time favorite is a game called Psi-Run (I'm mostly familiar with an ashcan version, but I'm under the impression it was picked up by Night Sky Games).

I'm ambivalent to Psi-Run's setting, but it has an immensely elegant narrative-oriented system. The basic concept is this: there are a small handful of genre-specific categories. If you have five categories, you roll five dice and distribute those dice among the categories. The higher the die you assign to the category, the better the result. You basically determine how strong a narrative theme is in any particular scene when you roll.

The character creation in Psi-Run also has some useful techniques. You write unanswered questions about your character on your sheet during character creation and answering those questions is a mechanical reward of the system.

[upogsi]

The old stretfighter rpg has a really cool system where turns start with the slowest player, and all other faster players can either let it happen, or interupt anyone slower than them

[JellyPooga]

Yeah thaaaat's not really true.

Did you miss the part of the rules that basically says "you can ignore the dice and say you win...with a cost"?

Yeah, the basic dice mechanic works like other systems, but the way you use those dice is completely different. They don't dictate what does or doesn't happen; the result you roll suggests what is most likely to happen, but you get to decide what happens regardless.

You can play FATE like other systems, but if you ignore the narrative elements that are hard-coded into the rules, you're missing out.

[Knaight]

Did you miss the part of the rules that basically says "you can ignore the dice and say you win...with a cost"?
Up to a point, sure. You've got limited resources, other people can use the exact same fate point mechanic to override your override, and characterizing the dice as suggesting what happens but the player chooses is wildly inaccurate.

[JellyPooga]

...and characterizing the dice as suggesting what happens but the player chooses is wildly inaccurate.

Would you care to elaborate on how it's inaccurate? You roll the dice to produce a result. You then choose whether you wish to accept that result or ignore it. Sounds like a suggestion to me. A simplification, certainly and probably a "wild" simplification at that, but inaccurate? Not so much. :smallwink:

[Knaight]

Would you care to elaborate on how it's inaccurate? You roll the dice to produce a result. You then choose whether you wish to accept that result or ignore it. Sounds like a suggestion to me. A simplification, certainly and probably a "wild" simplification at that, but inaccurate? Not so much. :smallwink:

You can't just choose to accept or ignore it. You may be able to override it if you have enough applicable aspects, enough fate points, and an opponent who isn't countering your fate points with their own. After you've used a couple of fate points, you don't even get a shadow of that choice.

[JellyPooga]

You can't just choose to accept or ignore it. You may be able to override it if you have enough applicable aspects, enough fate points, and an opponent who isn't countering your fate points with their own. After you've used a couple of fate points, you don't even get a shadow of that choice.

I'll be the first to admit that I haven't played a hell of a lot of FATE (as much as I love it), but be fair; how often do you make a check versus someone using Fate Points against you, doing something not covered by one of your Aspects and/or when you're out of Fate Points yourself? Sure it comes up that you might not get a choice, but generally speaking you do. At least for the big things that really matter (and why would you even roll for the little things? The game isn't really geared that way). It's more than can be said of most game systems.

As I said, I dispute the claim my statement was "wildly inaccurate". A gross simplification, perhaps, but largely accurate.

[Eisenheim]

Knaight, I think one of the pieces your assessment of fate seems to discount is the "success at cost" mechanic, which means that for a lot of rolls, failing to meet the target number can mean either failure, or success with a negative consequence negotiated between player and GM. In my experience, that, plus the negotiation of compel and concession, makes the dice feel less powerful in a fate game. I don't ever feel like the dice are the primary narrative driver, as I often have in D20.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

While dice mechanics aren't necessary at all for an RPG, it's my personal opinion that an RPG without dice verges uncomfortably close to "let's tell a story together!" and loses the "G" part of "RPG". In my experience, they are even more prone to encouraging heavy-handed GMing than more traditional RPGs (which is saying a lot!).
I dunno, I play an awful lot of non-RP tabletop games that don't use dice. :smalltongue: They seem to be pretty gamey.

[Rakaydos]

Put my vote down for FFG Star Wars. Enough crunch to saisfy, but the multi-axis resolution mechanic drives action and roleplay.

Consider a simple locked door.
"You succede with 3 threat of possibly-unrelated bad stuff, and a triumph in your favor. Uh, ok... you get the door open quietly. There's two stormtroopers standing guard on the other side. they shout "What, who's there!" and fumble with their weapons. What do you say or do?"
The dice say you succeded, but something bad happens as well, or you fail but get a consolation. Or you fail and it gets worse, or you succeed with a bonus. All of these happening to different decrees than need to be interpreted and explained in the narrative.