How Many Attacks Can We Make in One Round?

[Draconium]

I was doing a somewhat pointless thought exercise about how many attacks a martial character can make in a round. What I came up with is the following (I've only listed what would be applicable):

Build: Barbarian 1 (Frenzy variant rage)/X 1/Warblade 16

Feats: Two-Weapon Fighting, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Greater Two-Weapon Fighting.

Maneuvers: Raging Mongoose, Time Stands Still

Your BAB should be at least +17/+12/+7/+2 at this point, giving you four attacks. The two-weapon fighting line will give you three more attacks, for a total of seven, if you dual-wield. The Frenzy variant rage gives you an option to make an extra attack, for a total of eight. Your maneuvers allow you to take two full-round attacks (Time Stands Still, full-round action) plus another four (Raging Mongoose, swift action), for a total of 20 attacks a round.

I feel like this isn't as many as one could theoretically make however. So let me ask you, Playground. Going off of this, how many attacks could one theoretically make in a single round?

Restrictions:
-Stick to the realm of Practical Optimization. No NI attack/round.
-Must have access to 9th level maneuvers for Time Stands Still goodness.
-Must use manufactured weapons of unarmed strikes, no natural attacks or spells.
-No races with LA or RHD

[Deadline]

If Natural Attacks are on the table, then you can hit as many attacks as there are different types of natural attacks - with Warshaper's Morphic Weapons ability, assuming you have the time needed to grow them all. :smalltongue:

[Draconium]

If Natural Attacks are on the table, then you can hit as many attacks as there are different types of natural attacks - with Warshaper's Morphic Weapons ability, assuming you have the time needed to grow them all. :smalltongue:

:smallbiggrin: Okay, better include some parameters here.

-Must have access to 9th level maneuvers
-Must use manufactured weapons, no natural attacks (unarmed strikes are okay)

Oh, I probably could've included Snap Kick and IUS in there somewhere. :smalltongue:

[Deadline]

:smallbiggrin: Okay, better include some parameters here.

-Must have access to 9th level maneuvers
-Must use manufactured weapons, no natural attacks (unarmed strikes are okay)

Oh, I probably could've included Snap Kick and IUS in there somewhere. :smalltongue:

Ok, hmm. Off the top of my head you can squeeze another attack out of Haste or a Weapon of Speed.

Edit - And since you don't seem to have limited race, being a Dvati will "double" your attacks.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Are we also to assume that aptitude kukris, lightning maces, and roundabout kick aren't to be combined for a N.I. result?

[Draconium]

I'd prefer if you stick to the realm of PO, rather than venturing into TO territory. For races, anything without RHD or LA. Haste and Speed weapons say they don't stack with similar effects, which based on Haste's description, would seen to include the Frenzy's extra attack.

[Deadline]

I'd prefer if you stick to the realm of PO, rather than venturing into TO territory. For races, anything without RHD or LA. Haste and Speed weapons say they don't stack with similar effects, which based on Haste's description, would seen to include the Frenzy's extra attack.

Haste and Speed don't stack with each other, but it's a very strict reading to think they don't work with Frenzy (which always struck me as more similar to Flurry of Blows).

Hmm, I'm guessing your restrictions would mean that Crescent Knives (Dragon Magazine) would be a no go?

Because otherwise I'm left with out of turn attakcs (AoOs and the like) being the only "extras" I can think of.

[AvatarVecna]

Monk 20+GTWF+Flurry+Haste+Rapid Shot lets you throw 10 shuriken per round; unlike the OP's build, this can be done as longas the Monk has 10 more shuriken, rather than only when they have that one maneuver readied.

Alternatively, a Monk 8/Dervish 10 with a similar set-up could get 18 attacks once per day. If we could find a way to get Time Stands Still onto such a build, we could make it 36.

Of course, a Dervish crit-fishing with twin Aptitude Scimitars abusing Lightning Mace shenanigans would get far more attacks, as would a Mage capable of a large enough Greater Celerity loop.

[Draconium]

Monk 20+GTWF+Flurry+Haste+Rapid Shot lets you throw 10 shuriken per round; unlike the OP's build, this can be done as longas the Monk has 10 more shuriken, rather than only when they have that one maneuver readied.

Alternatively, a Monk 8/Dervish 10 with a similar set-up could get 18 attacks once per day. If we could find a way to get Time Stands Still onto such a build, we could make it 36.

Both of these sound like a good start. I'll admit, my build is one that started as an actual character concept - a Tiger Claw/Diamond Mind Warblade who attacked as many times a round as he could - and simply morphed into a thought exercise. My parameters are still based around that. :smalltongue:

As for the Crescent Knives, I'm actually not familiar with them. What kind of weapon are they?

[Deadline]

Both of these sound like a good start. I'll admit, my build is one that started as an actual character concept - a Tiger Claw/Diamond Mind Warblade who attacked as many times a round as he could - and simply morphed into a thought exercise. My parameters are still based around that. :smalltongue:

As for the Crescent Knives, I'm actually not familiar with them. What kind of weapon are they?

I don't have the issue handy (#275 I think?), but the general gist was that they doubled your attacks with them.
Edit - Yep, #275 - "This weapon, which resembles a crescent-shaped blade affixed to a crossbar handle, allows its wielder to make two simultaneous attack rolls (using the same modifier) each time he attacks with it. Each attack is resolved separately." It's an exotic weapon.

Also, if you haven't seen it already, be sure to check out the Jack B. Quick (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19849026&postcount=9) build, there may be something you can pull from there.

[AvatarVecna]

As for the Crescent Knives, I'm actually not familiar with them. What kind of weapon are they?

Bull**** forged in metal. (http://blackmarches.wikidot.com/forum/t-474331/crescent-knife-dragon-magazine-275)

[Draconium]

Let's see, if Crescent knives are light weapons - which it looks like they are - that's doubling our attacks. A bit cheesy, but I'll say it's still in PO for this build.

So if we sneak in EWP, IUS, and Snap Kick in there, that essentially gives us 41 attacks a round. That's about 6.84 attacks a second. Wow.

[AvatarVecna]

Let's see, if Crescent knives are light weapons - which it looks like they are - that's doubling our attacks. A bit cheesy, but I'll say it's still in PO for this build.

So if we sneak in EWP, IUS, and Snap Kick in there, that essentially gives us 41 attacks a round. That's about 10.25 attacks a second. Wow.

And, as mentioned, a proper crit-fisher can make that look puny. If you're really interested, I can put together a example build
to showcase it.

[Draconium]

And, as mentioned, a proper crit-fisher can make that look puny. If you're really interested, I can put together a example build
to showcase it.

If you want to, by all means, feel free. I'm rather curious myself. :smalltongue:

[Bluydee]

Can't forget about Belts of Battle, giving you another full attack, or Island In Time from the Eternal Blade to get another turn to either refresh maneuvers or to full attack yet again.

[OldTrees1]

Don't forget Warhulk as a x3 squares multiplier.

[Kantolin]

Are dancing weapons okay?

The spell spiritual weapon allows for (caster level -1) attacks in the final round of the first spiritual weapon's duration for 'free', doubled if you can also quicken every round, and then you can do whatever you're doing normally on that last round. Of course, it's up to you if that counts as a 'martial character' (Divine Crusader?)

[Draconium]

Can't forget about Belts of Battle, giving you another full attack, or Island In Time from the Eternal Blade to get another turn to either refresh maneuvers or to full attack yet again.

Activating either is an immediate/swift action, so we'd give up out Raging Moongoose for what amounts to another full attack - which is strictly better.

Let's go with the Belt, since both would be redundant - we can't use both of them on the same turn. So our attack amount becomes 49 in that case, or 8.17 attacks a second.

War Hulk let's you hit more people with each attack, which I guess could quality, but I'm going to interpret it as not actually giving more attacks, simply increasing the area of your attack.

[Platymus Pus]

Titan, Hekatonkheires as race with class levels.

This behemoth looks like a towering humanoid with fifty heads and twice as many hands, each wielding a different weapon.

Perfect Multiweapon Fighting [Epic]
You can make as many attacks with each extra weapon as with your primary weapon, using the same base attack bonus. You still take the normal penalties for fighting with two weapons.
Splitting on crossbows,haste,Bow Spirit to load crossbows, belt of battle.
Self loading crossbows in each hand. Go straight fighter
+20/+15/+10/+5 BAB for just fighter. That's 4 attacks
5 with haste.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/b/bow-spirit
Hekatonkheires is able to attack as many times with each extra weapon as if primary weapon.
5 x 100 x 2(belt of battle) x 2 again due to splitting
1,000 attacks at the least is what we can do and it results in 2,000 dmg rolls.
So at least that.

[Sayt]

Jade Phoenix Made+Wraithstrike+Avalanch of Blades might be able to do some work, you just need a way to not roll 1s, and there's a lot of room to optimise even in there.

Hekatonheires would probably win if RHD were allowed.

[The Insanity]

A Shadowpouncer build should be able to dish out more. Something like Swordsage 15 (for the 3 teleport maneuvers) / T. Shadowlord 4 / Wizard (with Abrupt Jaunt) 1 will make 4 full attacks in a round.

[Platymus Pus]

Another question is if AoO is allowed here. In the terms of attack in one round, since you are technically attacking in theirs.
There are quite a few ways to boost it.

[martixy]

Jade Phoenix Made+Wraithstrike+Avalanch of Blades might be able to do some work, you just need a way to not roll 1s, and there's a lot of room to optimise even in there.

Hekatonheires would probably win if RHD were allowed.

Robilar's Gambit + Stormguard warrior for fuelling Avalanche of Blades would also be pretty good.

Also - lightning maces(duh).
In4 NI attacks - it is theoretically possible, yes, but it is also theoretically possible to roll only 20s with Avalanche of Blades and it is also theoretically possible for a monkey mashing randomly on a typewriter to produce the works of Shakespeare.

[AvatarVecna]

Race: Human
Relevant Class Levels: Monk 2/Fighter 2/Ranger 2/Warblade 2/Bloodstorm Blade 4/Disciple of Dispater 8
Flaws: Noncombatant; Vulnerable
Relevant Feats: All pre-reqs, Slashing Flurry; Lightning Maces; Greater Two-Weapon Fighting; Rapid Shot; Improved Critical: Kukri
Relevant Items: Boots of Speed; (2) +5 Laminated Serrated Chainblade of Aptitude

Find a way to get Time Stands Still.

All feats that don't help me reach those feats get DCS'd into doing so. If that's not enough feats, I DCS the Otyugh Hole granted Iron Will over and over until I've reached enough feats.

When your boots are activated, you get 10 attacks as a full round action (BAB 4+TWF 3+Rapid Shot 1+Slashing Flurry 1+Haste 1). Additionally, each attack you make has a 80% chance of threatening a critical; when ever you threaten a critical, you gain a bonus attack. While this could theoretically allow for infinite attacks at the maximum, the average number of attacks you'll get in a round is far less impressive, and can be found using basic calculus. After some quick calculations, I've concluded that this will result in this character getting an average of 3 attacks for every attack they started with, resulting in your average round of TSS getting your 60 attacks.

It should be noted that increasing your crit threat range further can increase this, but the average won't increase by much: even if your crit threat range is 1-20, an attack is not a critical threat unless it would hit, and a natural 1 is never a hit...so the best odds you can get (without reroll shenanigans) is 95% crit threat, which returns 3.375 attacks for every attack you started with. Unless you can find a way for a natural 1 to not make your attack auto-miss, the math says there's a hard limit on the return you can get out of rerolling nat 1s; the best you can get is 3.5 attacks for every original attack.

[martixy]

Race: Human
Relevant Class Levels: Monk 2/Fighter 2/Ranger 2/Warblade 2/Bloodstorm Blade 4/Disciple of Dispater 8
Flaws: Noncombatant; Vulnerable
Relevant Feats: All pre-reqs, Slashing Flurry; Lightning Maces; Greater Two-Weapon Fighting; Rapid Shot; Improved Critical: Kukri
Relevant Items: Boots of Speed; (2) +5 Laminated Serrated Chainblade of Aptitude

Find a way to get Time Stands Still.

All feats that don't help me reach those feats get DCS'd into doing so. If that's not enough feats, I DCS the Otyugh Hole granted Iron Will over and over until I've reached enough feats.

When your boots are activated, you get 10 attacks as a full round action (BAB 4+TWF 3+Rapid Shot 1+Slashing Flurry 1+Haste 1). Additionally, each attack you make has a 80% chance of threatening a critical; when ever you threaten a critical, you gain a bonus attack. While this could theoretically allow for infinite attacks at the maximum, the average number of attacks you'll get in a round is far less impressive, and can be found using basic calculus. After some quick calculations, I've concluded that this will result in this character getting an average of 3 attacks for every attack they started with, resulting in your average round of TSS getting your 60 attacks.

It should be noted that increasing your crit threat range further can increase this, but the average won't increase by much: even if your crit threat range is 1-20, an attack is not a critical threat unless it would hit, and a natural 1 is never a hit...so the best odds you can get (without reroll shenanigans) is 95% crit threat, which returns 3.375 attacks for every attack you started with. Unless you can find a way for a natural 1 to not make your attack auto-miss, the math says there's a hard limit on the return you can get out of rerolling nat 1s; the best you can get is 3.5 attacks for every original attack.

Dang... I had my hopes up.
I personally do not consider Disciple of Dispater as valid, and then the whole thing falls apart.
Inb4 "If it hasn't been updated..." - I know!

[AvatarVecna]

I need to apologize for a blatant lie. It turns out that google spreadsheets doesnct like calculating past .2 to the power of 20 or so and roujded it to zero, so the 3.5 hard cap I described is nonexistent (probably). I'll fix it when I get home.

[AvatarVecna]

Race: Human
Relevant Class Levels: Monk 2/Fighter 2/Ranger 2/Warblade 2/Bloodstorm Blade 4/Disciple of Dispater 8
Flaws: Noncombatant; Vulnerable
Relevant Feats: All pre-reqs, Slashing Flurry; Lightning Maces; Greater Two-Weapon Fighting; Rapid Shot; Improved Critical: Kukri
Relevant Items: Boots of Speed; (2) +5 Laminated Serrated Chainblade of Aptitude

Find a way to get Time Stands Still.

All feats that don't help me reach those feats get DCS'd into doing so. If that's not enough feats, I DCS the Otyugh Hole granted Iron Will over and over until I've reached enough feats.

When your boots are activated, you get 10 attacks as a full round action (BAB 4+TWF 3+Rapid Shot 1+Slashing Flurry 1+Haste 1). Additionally, each attack you make has a 80% chance of threatening a critical; when ever you threaten a critical, you gain a bonus attack. While this could theoretically allow for infinite attacks at the maximum, the average number of attacks you'll get in a round is far less impressive, and can be found using basic calculus. After some quick calculations, I've concluded that this will result in this character getting an average of 3 attacks for every attack they started with, resulting in your average round of TSS getting your 60 attacks.

It should be noted that increasing your crit threat range further can increase this, but the average won't increase by much: even if your crit threat range is 1-20, an attack is not a critical threat unless it would hit, and a natural 1 is never a hit...so the best odds you can get (without reroll shenanigans) is 95% crit threat, which returns 3.375 attacks for every attack you started with. Unless you can find a way for a natural 1 to not make your attack auto-miss, the math says there's a hard limit on the return you can get out of rerolling nat 1s; the best you can get is 3.5 attacks for every original attack.

Okay, I fixed my formulas up. So, while the calculus would be simple, I didn't feel like digging up my knowledge on calculus, and decided to use a sprawling spreadsheet instead. Unfortunately for me, Google didn't like me trying to calculate the odds of getting 50 critical threats in a row, and quit on me. It also doesn't help that I screwed up another major part of the calculation. I've fixed my math, and it turns out that the final result is really easy to calculate: the number of attacks you turn every attack into via critical threats is 20 divided by however many results don't get a critical threat. So if your critical threat range is 2-20 (or 1-20 without a way to avoid auto-failing on a nat 1), you don't threaten on a 1, and so you turn 1 attack into 20. Thus, my build turns 1 attack into 5; with 20 attacks (after taking Time Stands Still into account), that makes 100 attacks when using TSS, and 50 the rest of the time (assuming a full attack).

EDIT: This gets absolutely ridiculous if you have a way to reroll 1s at-will: assuming a 1-20 threat range, and a 1/attack reroll, your chance of not getting a threat becomes 1/400; this means every attack turns into (on average) 142 attacks. Does anybody have a way of rerolling 1/attack?

EDIT 2: About the only way to make that number of attacks higher without RHD or TO is to go gestalt.

[martixy]

Okay, I fixed my formulas up. So, while the calculus would be simple, I didn't feel like digging up my knowledge on calculus, and decided to use a sprawling spreadsheet instead. Unfortunately for me, Google didn't like me trying to calculate the odds of getting 50 critical threats in a row, and quit on me. It also doesn't help that I screwed up another major part of the calculation. I've fixed my math, and it turns out that the final result is really easy to calculate: the number of attacks you turn every attack into via critical threats is 20 divided by however many results don't get a critical threat. So if your critical threat range is 2-20 (or 1-20 without a way to avoid auto-failing on a nat 1), you don't threaten on a 1, and so you turn 1 attack into 20. Thus, my build turns 1 attack into 5; with 20 attacks (after taking Time Stands Still into account), that makes 100 attacks when using TSS, and 50 the rest of the time (assuming a full attack).

EDIT: This gets absolutely ridiculous if you have a way to reroll 1s at-will: assuming a 1-20 threat range, and a 1/attack reroll, your chance of not getting a threat becomes 1/400; this means every attack turns into (on average) 142 attacks. Does anybody have a way of rerolling 1/attack?

Not sure if you're missing a key point or deliberately avoiding that variable, but:

Any attack roll that doesn't result in a hit is not a threat.

Besides, your math could potentially be horribly, horribly wrong.
If you don't have something that can give you more than one attack per attack, you absolutely CANNOT get more than one attack per hit.
(Unless I misunderstand you and you mean, you get X bonus attacks per one default attack).

If you do however add, say, Roundhouse Kick to the equation - then you have the ability to achieve critical mass - where the average number of bonus attacks per any attack is >1 and your sequence diverges into infinity.

[AvatarVecna]

Not sure if you're missing a key point or deliberately avoiding that variable, but:


Besides, your math could potentially be horribly, horribly wrong.
If you don't have something that can give you more than one attack per attack, you absolutely CANNOT get more than one attack per hit.
(Unless I misunderstand you and you mean, you get X bonus attacks per one default attack).

If you do however add, say, Roundhouse Kick to the equation - then you have the ability to achieve critical mass - where the average number of bonus attacks per any attack is >1 and your sequence diverges into infinity.

If you read the post I quoted, you'll see that I myself brought up this very point. This is a theoretical exercise trying to see how many attacks could be expected on average, given favorable circumstances where only the die can cause failure. Since my build is already assuming super-cheese for the feats, let's assume super-cheese for the attack bonus as well and call it a day, savvy?

EDIT: I think I see one of the disconnects, so I'll address it: the bonus attack granted to you by Lightning Maces when you achieve a critical threat can, itself, threaten a critical...and thus, add another attack. That's the kind of thing I'm talking about.

EDIT 2: Also, hitting becomes incredibly trivial if we add just one tiny thing: Blood In The Water. Until the stance ends, every time you get a critical hit, you get a +1 to attack and damage for all other attacks made until the stance ends, and this bonus explicitly stacks with itself.

Incidentally, I'm going to go make a more in-depth, thorough build, showing off every little thing, showing where every single feat comes from and where every single gold piece goes. Partially to deal with the holes being picked, and partially because I found a few more sources of bonus attacks (besides Roundabout Kick and Snap Kick).

Incidentally, is it generally agreed that those feats can be shifted into applying to Aptitude weapons? It seems like they might be, but I'm a bit tired and can't quite remember if that works.

[OldTrees1]

If you read the post I quoted, you'll see that I myself brought up this very point. This is a theoretical exercise trying to see how many attacks could be expected on average, given favorable circumstances where only the die can cause failure. Since my build is already assuming super-cheese for the feats, let's assume super-cheese for the attack bonus as well and call it a day, savvy?

EDIT: I think I see one of the disconnects, so I'll address it: the bonus attack granted to you by Lightning Maces when you achieve a critical threat can, itself, threaten a critical...and thus, add another attack. That's the kind of thing I'm talking about.

Clearer notation would be along the lines of "Number of attacks each initial attack is expected to generate before terminating by a miss"

Although your math is right in that
The infinite sum of 1 + r + r^2 + r^3 ... = 1/(1-r), where "r" is the chance an attack will provide a new attack.
If r = x/20 (where x is the rolls out of 20 that actually threaten),
1/(1-r) = 1/(1-x/20) = 1/((20-x)/20) = 20/(20-x)

[AvatarVecna]

Clearer notation would be along the lines of "Number of attacks each initial attack is expected to generate before terminating by a miss"

Although your math is right in that
The infinite sum of 1 + r + r^2 + r^3 ... = 1/(1-r), where "r" is the chance an attack will provide a new attack.
If r = x/20 (where x is the rolls out of 20 that actually threaten),
1/(1-r) = 1/(1-x/20) = 1/((20-x)/20) = 20/(20-x)

Yeah, I could definitely have been a bit clearer about that. Incidentally, I'm debating whether to take the easy route with my new build, and just make it gestalt.

[Rubik]

A psion that shares both Affinity Field and Synchronicity with his psicrystal can gain infinite standard actions in one round to make standard-action attacks with...

[martixy]

If you read the post I quoted, you'll see that I myself brought up this very point. This is a theoretical exercise trying to see how many attacks could be expected on average, given favorable circumstances where only the die can cause failure. Since my build is already assuming super-cheese for the feats, let's assume super-cheese for the attack bonus as well and call it a day, savvy?

EDIT: I think I see one of the disconnects, so I'll address it: the bonus attack granted to you by Lightning Maces when you achieve a critical threat can, itself, threaten a critical...and thus, add another attack. That's the kind of thing I'm talking about.

EDIT 2: Also, hitting becomes incredibly trivial if we add just one tiny thing: Blood In The Water. Until the stance ends, every time you get a critical hit, you get a +1 to attack and damage for all other attacks made until the stance ends, and this bonus explicitly stacks with itself.

Incidentally, I'm going to go make a more in-depth, thorough build, showing off every little thing, showing where every single feat comes from and where every single gold piece goes. Partially to deal with the holes being picked, and partially because I found a few more sources of bonus attacks (besides Roundabout Kick and Snap Kick).

Incidentally, is it generally agreed that those feats can be shifted into applying to Aptitude weapons? It seems like they might be, but I'm a bit tired and can't quite remember if that works.

Aye mate.

Switching to TO mode.

1. I might be persuaded that a threat is intrinsic to the object, not an event on the subject, but even by RAW it's rather ambiguous. Among other things, this would also allow you to trigger that effect from hitting undead and objects.
2. One thing worth noting is that you only get the increase from Blood in the Water on your next normal attack, since LM attacks are at the same attack bonus.
3. I've scoured my fair share of such threads, since I have a particular fondness for that type of build and I don't recall it being conclusively disputed anywhere.

[AvatarVecna]

Aye mate.

Switching to TO mode.

1. I might be persuaded that a threat is intrinsic to the object, not an event on the subject, but even by RAW it's rather ambiguous. Among other things, this would also allow you to trigger that effect from hitting undead and objects.
2. One thing worth noting is that you only get the increase from Blood in the Water on your next normal attack, since LM attacks are at the same attack bonus.
3. I've scoured my fair share of such threads, since I have a particular fondness for that type of build and I don't recall it being conclusively disputed anywhere.

About point #2: that's probably fair, to an extent, but it's not that much worse: the attack bonus still accumulates from those extra attacks, even if those extra attacks themselves don't benefit from the bonus. So when my build's first attack goes off at the highest attack bonus, I get an average 4 critical threats before I don't threaten again; depending on the target AC, that's potentially another +4 to my real attacks (the next nine this round), and that bonus carries over to any bonus attacks generated by real attacks. Since the bonuses stack with themselves explicitly every time I get a crit, by the time my next attack's bonus would be lowered due to BAB, I'll have accumulated another +20 or so to the attack, give or take, so I'll end up being more likely to hit on those later attacks rather than less.

Oh, and that huge bonus will carry over to the next round as well...and the one after that...and all the ones after that until the stance ends. With so many potential attacks, that bonus can get large enough that I don't really need to worry about hitting my target anymore, unless I roll a 1. Incidentally, I'm looking into ways to reroll attack rolls.

[martixy]

About point #2: that's probably fair, to an extent, but it's not that much worse: the attack bonus still accumulates from those extra attacks, even if those extra attacks themselves don't benefit from the bonus. So when my build's first attack goes off at the highest attack bonus, I get an average 4 critical threats before I don't threaten again; depending on the target AC, that's potentially another +4 to my real attacks (the next nine this round), and that bonus carries over to any bonus attacks generated by real attacks. Since the bonuses stack with themselves explicitly every time I get a crit, by the time my next attack's bonus would be lowered due to BAB, I'll have accumulated another +20 or so to the attack, give or take, so I'll end up being more likely to hit on those later attacks rather than less.

Oh, and that huge bonus will carry over to the next round as well...and the one after that...and all the ones after that until the stance ends. With so many potential attacks, that bonus can get large enough that I don't really need to worry about hitting my target anymore, unless I roll a 1. Incidentally, I'm looking into ways to reroll attack rolls.

True, it accumulates and carries over.

I have no clue about re-rolls, but... If I may suggest another avenue as well - if you go gestalt, you might as well go Obah-Blessed Thri-Kreen with the Smashing tail draconic graft and Prehensile Tail feat - that gives you effectively 9 hands to swing pointy things with.

Incidentally, since I'm so much into these builds, I have written a program that does a 1-round attack sequence with a few extra options(since rolling all those dice at the table is a horrible idea) - it was a requirement of my DM for allowing that one LM build I played.
I could post it, if there is interest. (It's in python.)

[AvatarVecna]

True, it accumulates and carries over.

I have no clue about re-rolls, but... If I may suggest another avenue as well - if you go gestalt, you might as well go Obah-Blessed Thri-Kreen with the Smashing tail draconic graft and Prehensile Tail feat - that gives you effectively 9 hands to swing pointy things with.

Incidentally, since I'm so much into these builds, I have written a program that does a 1-round attack sequence with a few extra options(since rolling all those dice at the table is a horrible idea) - it was a requirement of my DM for allowing that one LM build I played.
I could post it, if there is interest. (It's in python.)

I'm considering a lot of things for the gestalt build, but I don't think I want to go the 9 hands route; each hand beyond two is just a single extra attack, and I don't think it'll end up being worth it. If nothing else, I could go Fighter 20 or Warblade 20 on that side, and that's a whole pile of feats I don't have to buy via the Dark Chaos Shuffle.

I'm interested in such a program, but I kind of like rolling dice myself, so I probably wouldn't personally use it. Just as well, since my IRL DM would never let me play this blatant BS in a real game; crit fishing, sure, Lightning Mace ubercharger, sure, but both together? Chainswords wouldn't be the only thing being thrown at people that day.

Also, since you're more familiar with these builds than I am, I've a question for you: do you know where the Chainsword is from, as well as the forging qualities like Serrated? I can't seem to find where they come from, so I'm just going off people's word on what they do, but I'd prefer to see it myself to be sure.

[EugeneVoid]

The highest number ever done before in a single action (at least for the 3.5 CO World Records) was 1,067,212. It involves True Mind Switch on some ridiculous abomination. Here's the link. (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=146.0)

[TiaC]

The highest number ever done before in a single action (at least for the 3.5 CO World Records) was 1,067,212. It involves True Mind Switch on some ridiculous abomination. Here's the link. (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=146.0)

This version (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1170.0) might be a bit more recent.

[martixy]

I'm considering a lot of things for the gestalt build, but I don't think I want to go the 9 hands route; each hand beyond two is just a single extra attack, and I don't think it'll end up being worth it. If nothing else, I could go Fighter 20 or Warblade 20 on that side, and that's a whole pile of feats I don't have to buy via the Dark Chaos Shuffle.

I'm interested in such a program, but I kind of like rolling dice myself, so I probably wouldn't personally use it. Just as well, since my IRL DM would never let me play this blatant BS in a real game; crit fishing, sure, Lightning Mace ubercharger, sure, but both together? Chainswords wouldn't be the only thing being thrown at people that day.

Also, since you're more familiar with these builds than I am, I've a question for you: do you know where the Chainsword is from, as well as the forging qualities like Serrated? I can't seem to find where they come from, so I'm just going off people's word on what they do, but I'd prefer to see it myself to be sure.

Familiar insofar as the rules of critting, since I had to codify them into rigid logic.
But...
The Laminated and Serrated are from some AEG book called Mercaneries, pages 91 and 92 respectively - not exactly first-party.
The only reference I've been able to find to chainswords is in an april fool's bit in an old dragon magazine(like 2e, or even 1e old).

As for the many-handed route - well, taking Multiweapon fighting over TWF has 0 overhead - heck, you're required to take it.

Now, what I should bring up is that the only 3.5 my-type-of-legal way to increase threat range beyond 15-20 is the Psychic Weapon Master PrC(http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040827d).


As for the program, here it is:
http://pastebin.com/D0VuxHhq
It will stay up for a month, anyone wants it past that they can message me here, I'm not going anywhere.
Disclaimer: I won't claim it's bug free or comprehensive, but feel free to extend it to your heart's content, lets say I put it under GPLv3.
A few things I should mention regarding diffs from RAW:
1. It's full str to damage, all the way(e.g. no ability to distinguish off-hands)
2. Since we discussed it here - bonus attacks won't trigger on a miss.
3. PWM maximize damage feature works on all dice.

[AvatarVecna]

3.0 that wasn't updated to 3.5 is generally considered still a part of the edition, and still rules-legal, so I'll keep using DoD. Build's coming along nicely, although I don't think I'll end up reaching the numbers those TO builds did.

[Reltzik]

A long while back I came up with a fun little build for a fellow I named Charles. He was based off of one of Fighter's ideas from 8-Bit Theater. Charles was a monk and the DM decided that I could use something akin to sword-chucks with a -4 non-proficeincy penalty. But it would still be a monk weapon. Then I did a bit of number crunching and realized that if I THREW these weapons with quick-draw and the rapid fire feat, I'd be able to get a few extra attacks. Some more feats, a bit of dipping, good gear... I don't remember the details and it's been a while... and I got what I'm sure was the most attack dice POSSIBLE.

... not from the build, though. It came when I explained to the DM that what Charles wasn't throwing sword-chucks. Charles was throwing a wacky 8-bit theater chuck-weapon LIKE sword-chucks. Specifically, Charles was throwing chuck-chucks.

"Why?" my DM asked.

"Shucks, to see how may chuck-chucks Chuck the chuck-chuck chucker could chuck if Chuck the chuck-chuck chu-"

So anyhow, because we had a huge tankard in the middle of the table filled with communal dice for everyone to use, I discovered that my DM could chuck over 100 attack dice in one action.

[bekeleven]

As a side note, a warforged monk with a few feats that ploymorphed into a Choker can perform his normal attack routine - say, dual-wielding Sais while flurrying - then follow it up with:

Snap Kick (take the feat)
Extra attack (Choker)
2 Tentacles @-5 (Secondary Natrural)
Bite @-5 (Secondary Natural-benefits of feats are retained when changing shape)
Unarmed Strike @-5 (it's a natural weapon, and RAW-legal to use secondary in this instance)

And of course a druid or Master of Many Forms can blow this out of the water. And of course there are polymorph forms with more natural attacks. I was going for "armed attacks plus a sprinkling of natural upside."

[AvatarVecna]

"You scoundrel! You leave me no choice but to issue a challenge. A challenge in the form of...a thrown gauntlet!

Bladed Gauntlet, pre-errata. No third-party material, but 3.0 is on the table. Let's see what I can do...

Race: Half-Minotaur Insectile Halfling (LA +3 before buyoff)
Classes: Monk 2/Fighter 2/Warblade 3/Fighter +1/Bloodstorm Blade 4/Disciple of Dispater 8
Stats (before adj.): 18/15/8/15/8/8
Stats (Lvl 1): 24/19/12/13/10/8
Stats (Lvl 20) 29/19/12/13/10/8
Flaws: Vulnerable; Frail
Feats: Weapon Focus: Bladed Gauntlet (ECL 1); Point-Blank Shot (Flaw); Rapid Shot (Flaw); Improved Unarmed Strike (Monk 1); Stunning Fist (Monk 1); Combat Reflexes (Monk 2); Combat Expertise (ECL 3); Power Attack (Fighter 1); Roundabout Kick (Fighter 2); Disciple of Darkness (ECL 6); Weapon Specialization: Bladed Gauntlet (ECL 9); Melee Weapon Mastery: Slashing (ECL 12); Slashing Flurry (ECL 15); Lightning Mace (ECL 18)
Items: custom arm item (continuous Fist of Stone); (2) +5 Bladed Gauntlet of Aptitude; Boots of Speed
Relevant Maneuvers: Blood in the Water; Dancing Mongoose

Make sure that, prior to taking Lightning Fist, you pay a wizard ~10k to DCS Stunning Fist into Weapon Focus: Light Mace. For our purposes, we're assuming that the Aptitude weapon enchantment makes all single-weapon feats work with the Aptitude Weapon, including Lightning Mace and Roundabout Kick.

Our opponent for the day is the tarrasque; we'll assume we have a surprise round and won initiative somehow; this makes Big T's AC 32 until he acts...which is after we go.

Surprise Round: Activate Boots of Speed and Blood in the Water
Round 1: Activate Dancing Mongoose; full attack.

A full attack routine for this character is +30/+30/+30/+30/+30/+25/+25/+20/+20/+15, with a crit threat range of 5-20. On a critical threat, I get an extra attack; on a critical hit, I get an extra attack and a +1 attack/damage to all attacks in the full attack routine (but not to bonus attacks that result from the critical threat/success).

The first 5 attacks all have the same odds of success; what matters to us is the chance of getting no extra attacks, 1 extra attack, or 2 extra attacks (20%, 4%, and 76%, respectively). I am still trying to work out exactly how many attacks this results in overall, but the math is being a butt, and it's nearly 3am; I could just call it a night, and say it's NI attacks, but that feels like a copout, and I want to know the average number of expected attacks for myself. If I have any wonderful insights that make this easier to figure out, I'll edit them in, but for now I'm leaving it where it is.

[Heliomance]

Race: Human
Relevant Class Levels: Monk 2/Fighter 2/Ranger 2/Warblade 2/Bloodstorm Blade 4/Disciple of Dispater 8
Flaws: Noncombatant; Vulnerable
Relevant Feats: All pre-reqs, Slashing Flurry; Lightning Maces; Greater Two-Weapon Fighting; Rapid Shot; Improved Critical: Kukri
Relevant Items: Boots of Speed; (2) +5 Laminated Serrated Chainblade of Aptitude

Find a way to get Time Stands Still.

All feats that don't help me reach those feats get DCS'd into doing so. If that's not enough feats, I DCS the Otyugh Hole granted Iron Will over and over until I've reached enough feats.

When your boots are activated, you get 10 attacks as a full round action (BAB 4+TWF 3+Rapid Shot 1+Slashing Flurry 1+Haste 1). Additionally, each attack you make has a 80% chance of threatening a critical; when ever you threaten a critical, you gain a bonus attack. While this could theoretically allow for infinite attacks at the maximum, the average number of attacks you'll get in a round is far less impressive, and can be found using basic calculus. After some quick calculations, I've concluded that this will result in this character getting an average of 3 attacks for every attack they started with, resulting in your average round of TSS getting your 60 attacks.

It should be noted that increasing your crit threat range further can increase this, but the average won't increase by much: even if your crit threat range is 1-20, an attack is not a critical threat unless it would hit, and a natural 1 is never a hit...so the best odds you can get (without reroll shenanigans) is 95% crit threat, which returns 3.375 attacks for every attack you started with. Unless you can find a way for a natural 1 to not make your attack auto-miss, the math says there's a hard limit on the return you can get out of rerolling nat 1s; the best you can get is 3.5 attacks for every original attack.
This idea has come up before, and the build that eventually popped out, after extensive degree-level mathscrafting, was eventually determined to have a 5/9 chance of having infinite attacks. Essentially, the chance of the sequence terminating drops as the number of attacks increases, and it sums to a 5/9 chance to never terminate. I'll see if I can dig it out.

Found it! Here's the thread. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?132804-Highest-Possible-Crit-Range)


The highest number ever done before in a single action (at least for the 3.5 CO World Records) was 1,067,212. It involves True Mind Switch on some ridiculous abomination. Here's the link. (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=146.0)
Dammit, I was about to post that one.

[noob]

You might have as many as you want by buying many Braid Blade who gives one extra attack at each full round attack.
Buy 4546434^3423553 of them now you have a super good full round attack which will freeze the game for so much time the GM and all the players will go away to do other things then you will die of old age then countless generations later the computer will have calculated the random result of each individual dice.
No TO trick only a completely utterly broken exotic weapon.

[Uncle Pine]

Crit fishing builds aside, a simple build like Commoner 1/Something Full BAB 3/Rogue 3/Telflammar Shadowlord 4/Something else Full BAB 9 using two weapons with the necessary feats that bought 20 contingent Benign Transposition (100 gp each, CL 1) set to fire off when you say "Swordfish" can go nova and attack [4(primary weapon)+3(secondary weapon)]*21 = 147 times in a single round. Simply start your turn adjacent to your foe, take out and drop to the ground a chicken from your spell components pouch as two free actions, full attack, say "Swordfish", swap with the chicken, full attack your foe again with Shadow Pounce, say "Swordfish" again, swap with the chicken, full attack a third time, rinse and repeat until your foe is dead.
Granted, 147 attacks aren't much: you're better off slapping Chicken Infested and 20 contingent Benign Transpositions on your optimized shadow pouncers of choice.

[ben-zayb]

Would this work?
1. get Leadership
2. have you and your cohort take the Martial Monk dip to nab Improved Combat Reflexes
3. get a source of DR for both of you enough to absorb the other's attacks
4. gimp both of your AC
5. get Robilar's Gambit for both of you and proceed to wallop each other

Either of you can stop attacking the other (not NI attacks), or just drop the Martial Monk dip, optimize your Dex, and get Combat Reflexes.

[Platymus Pus]

Would this work?
1. get Leadership
2. have you and your cohort take the Martial Monk dip to nab Improved Combat Reflexes
3. get a source of DR for both of you enough to absorb the other's attacks
4. gimp both of your AC
5. get Robilar's Gambit for both of you and proceed to wallop each other

Either of you can stop attacking the other (not NI attacks), or just drop the Martial Monk dip, optimize your Dex, and get Combat Reflexes.

Even better have the attacks heal you (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7naYyWnK29U)

[Pex]

White Raven Tactics could be used on you to give you another round's worth of attacks you can muster. It's still technically the same one round. Essentially you can have as many round's worth of attacks in one round as there are allies available to use White Raven Tactics on you.

[danzibr]

If Natural Attacks are on the table, then you can hit as many attacks as there are different types of natural attacks - with Warshaper's Morphic Weapons ability, assuming you have the time needed to grow them all. :smalltongue:

-Must use manufactured weapons, no natural attacks (unarmed strikes are okay)
Ya know... I never considered something. What if you use Morphic Weapons to grow like 1000 claws (dunno how that would work), and then each claw holds a sword? afb, doubt it works, but hey.

[AvatarVecna]

Without resorting to the super-cheese that is Aptitude Weapons+Huge Threat Range+Lightning Mace+Roundabout Kick, the best I can think of is a Halfling Warblade 5/Bloodstorm Blade 4/Master Thrower 5/Warblade +6. You get 4 attacks from BAB, 3 from Greater Two-Weapon Fighting, 1 from Rapid Shot, 1 from Haste, 1 from Slashing Flurry, for a standard total of 10. Then use Crescent Knives and Palm Throw to get 40 attacks every round. That build can also have a nova round, where they use Raging Mongoose and Time Stands Still, for a total of 96 attacks. That's pretty decent.

[Fearan]

master thrower
Why would you want so much Master thrower? You really need just a Palm blade trick. Swordsage dip for Assassin's stance and Shadow Blade maybe?

[AvatarVecna]

Why would you want so much Master thrower? You really need just a Palm blade trick. Swordsage dip for Assassin's stance and Shadow Blade maybe?

Because without Blood In The Water on a crit-fishing build, the later attacks have a decent chance of missing; Weak Spot and small size fix that problem up quite nicely. That's not just a theorycrafting build: it's a functional build.

[Zetapup]

EDIT: This gets absolutely ridiculous if you have a way to reroll 1s at-will: assuming a 1-20 threat range, and a 1/attack reroll, your chance of not getting a threat becomes 1/400; this means every attack turns into (on average) 142 attacks. Does anybody have a way of rerolling 1/attack?

Choose Destiny from Races of Destiny helps for that. For the duration, you roll two dice for every attack and choose which one you use. It's a 9th level spell, but it's the only thing that allows repeated rerolls afaik

[Rubik]

Choose Destiny from Races of Destiny helps for that. For the duration, you roll two dice for every attack and choose which one you use. It's a 9th level spell, but it's the only thing that allows repeated rerolls afaikI do believe there's a ToB stance that allows you to take 11 on attack rolls. Even better than Choose Destiny, I think, especially if you crit on an 11.

If you can Persist the Hunter's Mercy spell, is there some way to make that work with a melee weapon? You probably could make it work with an elvencraft bow, since you can make melee attacks with it, and it's still a bow; however, that does require you to use either a quarterstaff or a club, rather than crescent knives or something else.

[Zetapup]

I do believe there's a ToB stance that allows you to take 11 on attack rolls. Even better than Choose Destiny, I think, especially if you crit on an 11.

If you can Persist the Hunter's Mercy spell, is there some way to make that work with a melee weapon? You probably could make it work with an elvencraft bow, since you can make melee attacks with it, and it's still a bow; however, that does require you to use either a quarterstaff or a club, rather than crescent knives or something else.

I think Aura of Perfect Order is the one you're referring to, but it's only once per round and you have to declare it before you roll, so Choose Destiny is probably better for crit fishing purposes.

[TheifofZ]

I still love how there are so many mathematicians on this site that are more than willing to crunch the statistical numbers for strange and complicated calculations to show us exactly how to build for a specific goal specifically to maximize it.

But does that Crit-fishing build include haste?
An extra iteration of chance to hit means all the extra attacks there.

[AvatarVecna]

But does that Crit-fishing build include haste?
An extra iteration of chance to hit means all the extra attacks there.

What, mine? Yeah, from the Boots of Speed.

[Heliomance]

I still love how there are so many mathematicians on this site that are more than willing to crunch the statistical numbers for strange and complicated calculations to show us exactly how to build for a specific goal specifically to maximize it.

That's nothing. This build (http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-character-optimization/threads/1041526) involves simultaneous differential equations and numbers so high that exponentiation isn't enough to adequately express them.

[Bluydee]

I nearly forgot entirely, but the Arcane Duelist from the Wizards site has an amazing capstone at level 10 that lets you make mirror images of yourself while full attacking and multiplies your attacks by a number you roll (1d4+3). Requires a lot of investment, and the class itself isn't the greatest, but outside ToB it's the most you can make in one turn without polymorph shenanigans.