Question about rogue talent "Underhanded" and "Concealed weapons"

[Deca4531]

Underhanded (Ex) Benefit: A rogue with this talent gains a +4 circumstance bonus on all Sleight of Hand checks made to conceal a weapon. Furthermore, if she makes a sneak attack during the surprise round using a concealed weapon that her opponent didn’t know about, she does not have to roll sneak attack damage, and the sneak attack deals maximum damage. A rogue can only use the underhanded talent a number of times per day equal to her Charisma modifier (minimum 0)

Ok, so here is my question: If me and my weapons are undetected, or "concealed" if you will, and I attack with with a natural weapon before combat starts, "surprise" round if you will, can I max my sneak attack damage?

Basically, I'm building a Kitsune ninja who turns into a fox in order to get close to the target he is hired to kill. As a fox I have a bite attack so if I bite them can I use this ability? (Yes, ninja can take rogue talents)

[Kakuga]

I would believe so yes.
The best way to go about this however would be to ask your DM and see their thoughts. Since in all honesty, even if it was a yes in the rules, your DM could override that for their campaign.

[Spore]

Personally I would still want a Stealth check. Because a person close to you might be noticed but it is known that the average human has no natural ways of attacking. And albeit foxes are cute you just know they have a bite attack (and can be possibly rabid). If you don't see the fox however, I'd rule the sneak attack maximised.

Personally I feel the Change Shape humanoid form is more subtle in city environments and shouldn't require a Stealth check.

[Deca4531]

Personally, I would still want a Stealth check. Because a person close to you might be noticed but it is known that the average human has no natural ways of attacking. And albeit foxes are cute you just know they have a bite attack (and can be possibly rabid). If you don't see the fox, however, I'd rule the sneak attack maximized.

Personally, I feel the Change Shape humanoid form is more subtle in city environments and shouldn't require a Stealth check.

I was planning on being sneaky as a fox before attacking, which raises another question, would the bonuses a fox gets to stealth add to my own or replace them?

Also, if I acted all cute and cuddly, lulling them into a false sense of security, then attacked, would it still count? Rolled over or did flips till they are all like "aw, look at the cute foxy, come here little guy." Then when they pick me up I rip their throat out?

[Spore]

To be clear because I have misunderstood this point until now as well:

Change Shape changes between Kitsune and Human. Not between Humanoid and Fox.

[Crake]

I would say it's maximised if, and only if, you were in human form, then changed into kitsune form and attacked in the surprise round (likely having to use that feat which lets you shift as a swift action, unless there's some other method to achieve that). That's the only way i would rule you could possibly have your bite concealed.

[Garktz]

What about bluff vs sense motive to "conceal" a natural attack?
Like faking the intention to attack as a way to hide a natural attack?

[Deca4531]

To be clear because I have misunderstood this point until now as well:

Change Shape changes between Kitsune and Human. Not between Humanoid and Fox.

Kitsune have a racial feat that allows them to turn into a tiny fox, the ability works like Beast Shape 2.

Even if i cant bluff or conceal a bite the +8 (+10 if you count the +4 to Agi you get as well) to stealth i get from being tiny makes that feat worth it.

[Sacrieur]

Concealing a weapon is a use of the sleight of hand skill. A hidden weapon isn't just a weapon opponents don't notice, but one that you've actively done a check to hide.

It's impossible to hide a natural weapon on your person because natural weapons aren't objects, so it won't work :p



What about bluff vs sense motive to "conceal" a natural attack?
Like faking the intention to attack as a way to hide a natural attack?

That's called a feint.

[Deca4531]

Concealing a weapon is a use of the sleight of hand skill. A hidden weapon isn't just a weapon opponents don't notice, but one that you've actively done a check to hide.

It's impossible to hide a natural weapon on your person because natural weapons aren't objects, so it won't work :p


I agree that buy raw you are completely right, however it seems to me that a concealed weapon as a weapon that is concealed is more a matter of semantics really. if I approach someone with a weapon hidden up my sleeve and attack before they know I'm a threat then I should max my sneak attack damage, now if I approach someone without them knowing at all that im there and attack then shouldn't the end result be the same?

[Kol Korran]

I have a related question: I once considered this trick for a character, but there is something that I don't understand - you maximize your SA if you use concealed weapons in a surprise round. But... even with quick draw, retrieving a concealed weapons is a move action, and you insult get one action in a surprise round. So... how am I supposed to retrieve the concealed weapon AND attack on the surprise round?

[Chromascope3D]

I have a related question: I once considered this trick for a character, but there is something that I don't understand - you maximize your SA if you use concealed weapons in a surprise round. But... even with quick draw, retrieving a concealed weapons is a move action, and you insult get one action in a surprise round. So... how am I supposed to retrieve the concealed weapon AND attack on the surprise round?

You could try a Tube Arrow Shooter (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/weapons/weapon-descriptions/tube-arrow-shooter). It might not be the weapon you want to specialize in, but if you just want a sneak attack weapon to use in the surprise round, this one fits the bill and it just oozes style besides.

[Deca4531]

I have a related question: I once considered this trick for a character, but there is something that I don't understand - you maximize your SA if you use concealed weapons in a surprise round. But... even with quick draw, retrieving a concealed weapons is a move action, and you insult get one action in a surprise round. So... how am I supposed to retrieve the concealed weapon AND attack on the surprise round?

This ability, to my understanding of it, was meant to be used to initiate combat. So you approach someone, who does not consider you a threat and thus does not start initiative. you then draw your weapon, which would then start the surprise round, but you already have the weapon in hand now at the start of the surprise so you still have a standard action to use it.

[dramatic flare]

I have a related question: I once considered this trick for a character, but there is something that I don't understand - you maximize your SA if you use concealed weapons in a surprise round. But... even with quick draw, retrieving a concealed weapons is a move action, and you insult get one action in a surprise round. So... how am I supposed to retrieve the concealed weapon AND attack on the surprise round?

another option should be the spring loaded wrist sheath (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/weapons/weapon-and-armor-accessories#TOC-Wrist-Sheath-spring-loaded) but that depends on the GM, since technically it's a swift action to use that item and swift actions are not part of a surprise round. My group uses rule of cool on these , but your mileage might modify.

[Sacrieur]

I agree that buy raw you are completely right, however it seems to me that a concealed weapon as a weapon that is concealed is more a matter of semantics really.
It's not a matter of semantics because you have to make a sleight of hand check to determine the DC of a perception check.



if I approach someone with a weapon hidden up my sleeve and attack before they know I'm a threat then I should max my sneak attack damage,

Drawing a hidden weapon, specifically is a standard action. Even with Quick Draw this is a move action.

Underhanded builds off of another rogue talent, called Deft Palm, which essentially does as you describe thematically. Mechanically it permits you to hide weapons in plain sight.



now if I approach someone without them knowing at all that im there and attack then shouldn't the end result be the same?

I'd rule that if the opponent isn't aware of you then your weapons count as concealed weapons, but this isn't supported by the rules, which requires you hide the weapon first.