What would Diviners fight with?

[tadkins]

Evokers fire their energy and elemental blasts at targets.
Conjurers use their summoned minions and created projectiles.
Illusionists blast their opponents with shadow-stuff that look like traditional nukes, and disorient their opponents with illusory terrain, images of technicolor ponies, and your ex.
Enchanters attack your mind in various ways alongside their mind-controlled thralls.
Necromancers fight you with undead minions, black energy rays and corrupting afflictions.
Transmuters transform themselves and their allies into something better, and transform you into something worse.

Diviners are good at collecting information. That's good, because as they say, knowing is half the battle. But knowing is in fact only half the battle; we must now *act* on that information!

If I wanted to build a Divination-specialized wizard, what would be a good, thematically-appropriate style of attacking in combat?

[Solaris]

I mostly made use of force-based spells (magic missile, mage armor, and there are a few more in other sources that go up to higher levels) and buffing my allies when I played a diviner-type.
And, of course, the spells that perfectly targeted an opponent's weaknesses whenever I actually bothered to use divinations to find out what I was gonna be facing.

[Boogastreehouse]

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Ever watch the end of Bill & Ted's Bogus Journey?


*

[torrasque666]

Diviners hit you when you're asleep, your pants are down, whenever you're most vulnerable. You said it yourself, their gig is information gathering. And they'll use that information to hurt you in ways you could never expect.



That, and Divination is considered (by WotC) to be a weak school, to the point that a Diviner only has to give up one school compared to an Evoker (who should really only have to give up one) or a Conjurer (who should have to give up like frikkin half of em.)

[tadkins]

I mostly made use of force-based spells (magic missile, mage armor, and there are a few more in other sources that go up to higher levels) and buffing my allies when I played a diviner-type.
And, of course, the spells that perfectly targeted an opponent's weaknesses whenever I actually bothered to use divinations to find out what I was gonna be facing.

This was my first instinct. Pick any of the above as a Diviner, whichever you like thematically (Diviner/Necro seems cool), as well as some specialty picks depending on the situation.


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Ever watch the end of Bill & Ted's Bogus Journey?


*

Sadly, nope. :(



Diviners hit you when you're asleep, your pants are down, whenever you're most vulnerable. You said it yourself, their gig is information gathering. And they'll use that information to hurt you in ways you could never expect.



That, and Divination is considered (by WotC) to be a weak school, to the point that a Diviner only has to give up one school compared to an Evoker (who should really only have to give up one) or a Conjurer (who should have to give up like frikkin half of em.)

Feels like a Diviner would be all about knowledge and information. A build utilizing Knowledge Devotion seems like it'd work pretty well.

I agree as well. Conjuration can already take the place of half the schools as it is!

[Troacctid]

Diviners fight using whatever style they want, because they didn't have to ban a bunch of other schools, so they still have access to all those other spells, and because they have the Spontaneous Divination ACF, they don't actually need to prepare any divination spells.

[Kelb_Panthera]

If knowing is half the battle then the other half is using that knowledge to pick the most effective of the other 7 to overcome the problem, not including whichever of those 7 the diviner has forbidden himself from using.

Personally, I prefer using a combination of divination, enchantment, and illusion to get my enemies to solve each other for me and leave themselves in ruin in the process.

[tadkins]

Diviners fight using whatever style they want, because they didn't have to ban a bunch of other schools, so they still have access to all those other spells, and because they have the Spontaneous Divination ACF, they don't actually need to prepare any divination spells.

Truth, unless Pathfinder, but they also get access to some neat tricks.

Divination is tempting for those reasons. Solid powers and you only have to ban one school.


If knowing is half the battle then the other half is using that knowledge to pick the most effective of the other 7 to overcome the problem, not including whichever of those 7 the diviner has forbidden himself from using.

Personally, I prefer using a combination of divination, enchantment, and illusion to get my enemies to solve each other for me and leave themselves in ruin in the process.

That's a pretty clever approach. :)

First instinct would be to ban enchantment as its generally accepted that it's the weakest school, but with the potential to do what you've presented...just not sure now!

[OldTrees1]

Diviners know you well. They are familiar enough with your tactics that they can ready actions to cast spells knowing you are just about to open yourself up to that particular spell (say dropping a fireball on the Enchanter right as they were attempting to weave a Dominate Person).

[Suichimo]

What other reasons does an epic level spellcaster have for hiring us pissants?

Also, Locate City Bomb.

[ekarney]

Knowledge mainly.

"We know what you did last night..."

That or as Suichimo said, adventurers. "Balgond the Conjurer said your mother smells like dead gnoll and musty blinds."

[Vogie]

In "theory", a Diviner would fight similar to the pseudo-precogs from Alpha or the character Root from Person of Interest - what is used to fight is largely doesn't matter, because they know their guns/bows/knife/sword/spell will find the mark before they fire/strike/cast.

In my experience with (PF at least), the execution of that in a initiative-based RP environment is much more mundane. All the Divination i've seen is just used as a combination stat buff and macguffin with a side of plot armor.

[Vizzerdrix]

A good diviner will know what day you plan to attack them, where you plan to do it, and exactly how. So instead of fighting you, they'll just booby trap the ambush points, not bother to show, and get two frisky cats to make sure you don't sleep the night before.

A GREAT diviner will have a gift wrapped copy of the life insurance policy they take out on you, and a clock that is ticking down delivered to your front door.

[Cirrylius]

Weaponized accidents? Judicious use of a True Strike -ish ability combined with a precision-damage-ish ability?

[Flickerdart]

Diviners don't use their spells to fight - they use their spells to stack the deck so when they do fight, it's a foregone conclusion. Diviners will be getting the surprise round and winning initiative. Diviners will fire attacks that always hit, and know what your defenses are so they can bypass them. Diviners can make you reroll successful saves, while rerolling their failed ones.

[Fouredged Sword]

Evokers fire their energy and elemental blasts at targets.
Conjurers use their summoned minions and created projectiles.
Illusionists blast their opponents with shadow-stuff that look like traditional nukes, and disorient their opponents with illusory terrain, images of technicolor ponies, and your ex.
Enchanters attack your mind in various ways alongside their mind-controlled thralls.
Necromancers fight you with undead minions, black energy rays and corrupting afflictions.
Transmuters transform themselves and their allies into something better, and transform you into something worse.


Diviners hit you with an ally.

[nedz]

A good Diviner will have won the battle before it starts.


Personally, I prefer using a combination of divination, enchantment, and illusion to get my enemies to solve each other for me and leave themselves in ruin in the process.

So you would like my Beguiler / Divine Oracle build then :smallamused:

[ThinkMinty]

Spamming True Strike, and something you can lay down the hurt with.

[Braininthejar2]

You don't hit the enemy. You hit the GM's plan of the campaign, and let the npc's kill each other.

[Psyren]

Diviners (and Seers) make great gishes. It's a natural fit since (a) their magic is difficult to use in direct offense, so learning to protect themselves physically is a logical progression, (b) their magic is useful at uncovering/rediscovering ancient martial traditions or obscure fighting styles, and (c) they can also use their magic to identify and exploit the weaknesses of a wide variety of opponents. The two approaches complement each other quite well and provide an interesting counterpoint to the Transmuter gish's shapeshifting.

[ThinkMinty]

Diviners (and Seers) make great gishes. It's a natural fit since (a) their magic is difficult to use in direct offense, so learning to protect themselves physically is a logical progression, (b) their magic is useful at uncovering/rediscovering ancient martial traditions or obscure fighting styles, and (c) they can also use their magic to identify and exploit the weaknesses of a wide variety of opponents. The two approaches complement each other quite well and provide an interesting counterpoint to the Transmuter gish's shapeshifting.

Now would they be a melee gish or a ranged gish?

[Cirrylius]

Now would they be a melee gish or a ranged gish?
Melee strikes me as easier to react to immediate-future changes- the further away you stretch that precognition, the more you have to keep track of both more variables and any time-to-the-target delay.


...okay, stupid question- Time-monks or diviner-monks has been done in literature before, yeah? Besides Pratchett?

[frost890]

Diviners are good at collecting information. That's good, because as they say, knowing is half the battle. But knowing is in fact only half the battle; we must now *act* on that information!

If I wanted to build a Divination-specialized wizard, what would be a good, thematically-appropriate style of attacking in combat?

You would attack with...The party! Dun dun duun. You are Loki in essence. Most of what you do is in the prep work. You find out stuff and then turn to the Artificer and say how would you fight... You make sure you are not bringing a flaming sword to fight a pack of red dragons.

Wands and scrolls and such are also always good. And how you set up your spell list will affect things greatly. or if all else fails get a gholem.

[frost890]

and get two frisky cats to make sure you don't sleep the night before.

This = WIN!

[nedz]

Now would they be a melee gish or a ranged gish?

Rogue / Wizard-Diviner / Unseen Seer combo is fairly good. There are a number of low level divinations which help with sneak attacks as well as utility.

[tadkins]

Diviners (and Seers) make great gishes. It's a natural fit since (a) their magic is difficult to use in direct offense, so learning to protect themselves physically is a logical progression, (b) their magic is useful at uncovering/rediscovering ancient martial traditions or obscure fighting styles, and (c) they can also use their magic to identify and exploit the weaknesses of a wide variety of opponents. The two approaches complement each other quite well and provide an interesting counterpoint to the Transmuter gish's shapeshifting.

How about a Diviner/Fighter/Eldritch Knight build that focuses on swordplay, knowledge skills, divination, and abusing the hell out of Knowledge Devotion? Divine up your day, load up some combat buff spells and a few specialties appropriate for the challenges to come, and you're good to go.

[Psyren]

Now would they be a melee gish or a ranged gish?

That's just it, you could make a case for both. Certainly the various divinations that help you see around corners could be very handy for an Arcane Archer and their Seeker/Phase arrows, and there are other martial-friendly divinations too. (A True Strike Called Shot build, using the "more lethal" variant could be particularly nasty.)

[Inevitability]

Unluck is one of the few offensive divination spells, but it's pretty good. I can see them using it.

[Flickerdart]

Diviners make good archery gishes - spells like arrow mind, hunter's eye, sniper's shot, guided shot and guided arrow, hunter's mercy, targeting ray, and blessed aim can turn anyone into a pretty deadly killer, and Unseen Seer lets diviners cherry-pick the best divinations off any list.

There's some support for melee-only stuff in critical strike, true strike or insightful feint, as well as generic buffs like healer's vision (which weirdly enough gives a damage boost). Plus, melee starts out being better. But I think that the diviner's unique support for ranged combat makes for a far more unique character than Yet Another THFerTM.

[GungHo]

They have Batman's superpower. They are always prepared. There's always a contingency, and a contingency for the contingency. They know who you are. They know your family. That puppy you saw in the window that looked like your puppy? That was your puppy.

[tadkins]

Diviners make good archery gishes - spells like arrow mind, hunter's eye, sniper's shot, guided shot and guided arrow, hunter's mercy, targeting ray, and blessed aim can turn anyone into a pretty deadly killer, and Unseen Seer lets diviners cherry-pick the best divinations off any list.

There's some support for melee-only stuff in critical strike, true strike or insightful feint, as well as generic buffs like healer's vision (which weirdly enough gives a damage boost). Plus, melee starts out being better. But I think that the diviner's unique support for ranged combat makes for a far more unique character than Yet Another THFerTM.

First time I've really taken a hard look at the Unseen Seer and I wish I had done it sooner. This class looks amazing.

Already envisioning a cool Dark Whisper Gnome Rogue/Diviner/Unseen Seer concept. Not sure on the fighting style, but either way I picture a serious potential for the most legal form of metagaming there is. Though I doubt it'd be playable; can't imagine many DMs would be okay with collecting all the information on their campaigns. xD

[Cirrylius]

Well, we already have Spontaneous Divination as an abstraction along these lines. Limited spontaneous casting?

Or for something more mastermind or plan-oriented, d20 Modern had the Smart Hero's ability to make a check to provide a gradually-diminishing blanket bonus to all actions, provided the party gets initiative and holds to a rough plan outline.

For a much looser suggestion, how about just showing the player the first round of deployment and actions of their foes? :smallbiggrin:

[bean illus]

Why would diviners fight?

A changeling chameleon skillface diviner? Since chameleon has great spell progression you have almost ten levels to do as will.

Straight specialist diviner with craft meta magic could be cool.

[morkendi]

I played a whisper gnome deviner/shadow craft mage/ arch mage that dropped evocation from level 1 to epic over a pretty good amount of time. Easily the most powerful character I have ever played. Defeated most things with careful planning and smart spells. I used alot of the wizard being batman stuff.

Look up how they have Gromph Baenre stated up. He is one of the most powerful mages in the forgotten relms setting to a point that he could potentially give Elminster a run for his money. They have him stated as diviner 18/ archmage 4.

A deviner can break the game easily, it is all about planning and execution.

[Flickerdart]

First time I've really taken a hard look at the Unseen Seer and I wish I had done it sooner. This class looks amazing.
They are super-boss. There's also decent synergy with Spellwarp Sniper, Arcane Trickster, and Magelord by virtue of the sneak attack prerequisite, if you're into that sort of thing.