3.5 lvl 20 Villain help

[ThirdProgenitor]

So a couple of friends and i are doing a thing. A challenge if you will.
I'm dming a lvl 20 oneshot, in which my players are able to use any of the material from the book as written- then i try to tpk them.
However, at this point, with 2 gestalt characters, a highly evolved lich, some build that can do like 5000 damage an attack and a still growing party, I haven't a clue how to challenge them other than to throw pun-pun their way.... or like 4 tarresques.

Anyone have any ideas?

[AvatarVecna]

So a couple of friends and i are doing a thing. A challenge if you will.
I'm dming a lvl 20 oneshot, in which my players are able to use any of the material from the book as written- then i try to tpk them.
However, at this point, with 2 gestalt characters, a highly evolved lich, some build that can do like 5000 damage an attack and a still growing party, I haven't a clue how to challenge them other than to throw pun-pun their way.... or like 4 tarresques.

Anyone have any ideas?

We need details to help out; 2 "gestalt" characters could be anything from "Paladin//Monk" to "Wizard//Cleric". What are the character's builds, in detail? What tricks do they usually make use of? What are their strengths and weaknesses? Do you want it to be a close fight, or do you want to curbstomp them?

We need details to help.

[ThirdProgenitor]

We need details to help out; 2 "gestalt" characters could be anything from "Paladin//Monk" to "Wizard//Cleric". What are the character's builds, in detail? What tricks do they usually make use of? What are their strengths and weaknesses? Do you want it to be a close fight, or do you want to curbstomp them?

We need details to help.

I have a ninja/monk and the evolved lich is a cleric/sorcerer i believe (evolved 3 times).
The one that can do 5000 is more accurately 1-5k and is a barbarian fighter i believe. It's the build optimizing the barbarian variants lion totem. I have two other players that haven't gotten back to me yet.

[ThirdProgenitor]

We need details to help out; 2 "gestalt" characters could be anything from "Paladin//Monk" to "Wizard//Cleric". What are the character's builds, in detail? What tricks do they usually make use of? What are their strengths and weaknesses? Do you want it to be a close fight, or do you want to curbstomp them?

We need details to help.

The lich character is the only fully completed one. He wish farmed to get all his stats above 20 and got his Cha to 36 using a bunch of complicated methods i can't quite remember. I'll have a written copy of the entire build eventually.
The monk/ninja hasn't done any of that stuff yet but i honestly wouldn't put it past him. He's trying to combine flurry of blows, stunning fist and sudden attack, which I'm now looking through the books to see if there's anything saying that is illegal. If there isn't i have to let it work.
The barbarian is still in the mid stages of creation and hasn't gotten any magical items yet but he's somewhat newer so i suspect he wont be as much of a problem.

And no, i don't really want to curbstomp them. I want it to be at least a little fair. But I'll be looking for mechanics to abuse myself as well.

[AvatarVecna]

Alright. The Barbarian/Fighter is likely an ubercharger, so BFC can lock them down easily. Alternatively, they can be surrounded by summoned creatures, and that'll lock them down and keep them from charging (which is the main source of their huge damage).

Are we talking a Monk with a ninja-like feel, a Monk/Rogue with a ninja-like feel, or a Monk/Ninja? If it's the Monk/Ninja, you should make sure they know that the Monk AC bonus and the Ninja AC bonus explicitly don't stack with each other. Other than that...are they melee, ranged, focused on Sneak Attack, what? If they're usually using Sneak Attack/Sudden Strike, find a way to be immune to SA/SS: the undead creature type works well for this, as can construct, but there's ways around that. The way around a plant's immunity is less well-known, and there's no way I know of to get around an ooze's immunity, so Shapechanging into Oozes will keep them from Sudden Striking you, which limits their damage. I think oozes are also immune to stunning, so that'll help too.

The Evolved Lich Cleric//Sorcerer...we'll need to see a more complete build for them. They are gestalt, right? You said Evolved 3 times...how many cleric levels, how many sorcerer levels, any PrCs? What are their strengths, weaknesses? What tricks do they use?

Getting a stat to 36 isn't that hard, especially a mental one; with that set-up, his Charisma could've been 9 at character creation and he could still reach 36.

[AvatarVecna]

For now, let's get away from the specific characters; if we need to adjust a build to deal with a particular magic tactic, we will. What kind of build would you like to play? Do you want to be a no-magic archer? A CoDzilla? A God Wizard? A melee Gish?

What would you like to play?

[Thealtruistorc]

I was planning to use this character for the final boss of a campaign of my own, but since it ended prematurely I'll reveal it to the world.

A psion with access to true mind switch, psionic dominate, and standard mind switch basically skinjacks (from the Everlost books. Best term for domination I have ever heard) the leaders of several different countries and spills the information about the party to all of them, making them sound like they are the biggest threat to stability for not one country or race, but all of them. Point every church, every monster, every wizard, and every dragon in the universe at the players, and when the entire material plane is after their heads start gating in powerful entities from every plane imaginable. Have the psion offer the biggest reward imaginable to any creature who delivers him (or whomever he is disguised as) the severed heads of the party members (and the phylactery of the lich). Whenever the PCs finish off the threats coming after them, have an envoy of the psion dust the battlefield for prints until he has enough material to create ice assassins of every party member (add some templates for good measure). From there, go full tippy on those punks and start having the psion fusion himself into the ultimate being. When the time finally comes for the fight. Each party member will be facing four of themselves plus a tippy psion constructed of whatever the heck you want. For extra evil, give the psion a paid cabal of wizards constantly constructing magic items that are far beyond the caliber of the party. Use ambush tactics, attacking when they are weak or unaware, because that will be the deciding factor in beating them.

Wish them luck and then dust them.

[AvatarVecna]

I was planning to use this character for the final boss of a campaign of my own, but since it ended prematurely I'll reveal it to the world.

A psion with access to true mind switch, psionic dominate, and standard mind switch basically skinjacks (from the Everlost books. Best term for domination I have ever heard) the leaders of several different countries and spills the information about the party to all of them, making them sound like they are the biggest threat to stability for not one country or race, but all of them. Point every church, every monster, every wizard, and every dragon in the universe at the players, and when the entire material plane is after their heads start gating in powerful entities from every plane imaginable. Have the psion offer the biggest reward imaginable to any creature who delivers him (or whomever he is disguised as) the severed heads of the party members (and the phylactery of the lich). Whenever the PCs finish off the threats coming after them, have an envoy of the psion dust the battlefield for prints until he has enough material to create ice assassins of every party member (add some templates for good measure). From there, go full tippy on those punks and start having the psion fusion himself into the ultimate being. When the time finally comes for the fight. Each party member will be facing four of themselves plus a tippy psion constructed of whatever the heck you want. For extra evil, give the psion a paid cabal of wizards constantly constructing magic items that are far beyond the caliber of the party. Use ambush tactics, attacking when they are weak or unaware, because that will be the deciding factor in beating them.

Wish them luck and then dust them.As awesome as that looks, I'm not sure how it'll fly with the OP, since...
And no, i don't really want to curbstomp them. I want it to be at least a little fair. But I'll be looking for mechanics to abuse myself as well.

[AvatarVecna]

Since you're facing a gestalt caster, I suggest going gestalt yourself. Let's see if I can whip up something interesting...

[Thealtruistorc]

As awesome as that looks, I'm not sure how it'll fly with the OP, since...

I'm pretty sure balance was thrown out the window as soon as "Gestalt Sorc/Cleric Evolved Lich" was uttered.

For reference on just what you plan to do, post a song and I will build a villain based upon it.

[ThirdProgenitor]

For now, let's get away from the specific characters; if we need to adjust a build to deal with a particular magic tactic, we will. What kind of build would you like to play? Do you want to be a no-magic archer? A CoDzilla? A God Wizard? A melee Gish?

What would you like to play?

I'm not playing, I'm dming. The villain might be some form of demigod... Really, anyone powerful enough to threaten all the planes.

[TheifofZ]

Psionic-Thrallherd/Wizard-Spell to Power Erudite gestalt that's been Baleful Polymorphed into a fly, but made the will save.
Use the lowest level minion trash to keep the barbarian busy; they can buy at least 100 turns, minimum.
Infinite time-loop shenanigans to buff your swarm of low-mid level minions. Have them swarm the barbarian in small clusters to keep him busy turn-by-turn. If he's an ubercharger, denying charge turns his damage off.
No-save-immobilization spells and anti-magic will need to be cycled on the monk while he's being fed minions in 1s and 2s to keep him on the ground and from doing anything productive.
Priority focus should be on the necromancer. Dump an Anti-magic field on his head, and use more infinite time-loop shenanigans to bring in your biggest, baddest thralls just out of the field.
One of them should be an anti-caster built fighter/rogue with Penetrating strike who cycles readied actions to interrupt casting just in case, the other could be a fighter/crusader-warblade trip build with combat reflexes for as many tripping AoOs as possible.
After they geek the mage, mind-control the barbarian into a meat-puppet and use him to lightly tenderize the monk; whichever of them wins that fight still has a spellcaster that they likely haven't even spotted yet flying around to try to kill while getting mobbed by hundreds more weenies, and locked down by a pair of synergized ******* fighters.

Basically: Crowd control everything with specialized methods to keep them from doing anything, kill the caster first. Make the barbarian who likely won't be making that will-save go beat the stuffing out of the monk. Combine anti-magic and minion swarms to weaken the monk, then focus on melting his face in.

The encounter starts with a single NPC with Player Class Levels, so exactly 1/4th of an appropriate encounter that the party doesn't even know it's fighting yet.
Suddenly, they're mobbed by a bunch of angry guys that showed up out of no-where, and the caster realizes his magic is off while Biff and Bubbles try to make friends with him.
And then the barbarian starts trying to kill his teammates. And after that the entire situation keeps getting worse.

... I was planning on using this exact encounter as the final boss fight in my current campaign, but without all the gestalts, and Biff is a DMM: Persist Timestop cleric while Bubbles is an illusionist wizard instead. But you said you wanted to give the party a chance.

[ThirdProgenitor]

Psionic-Thrallherd/Wizard-Spell to Power Erudite gestalt that's been Baleful Polymorphed into a fly, but made the will save.
Use the lowest level minion trash to keep the barbarian busy; they can buy at least 100 turns, minimum.
Infinite time-loop shenanigans to buff your swarm of low-mid level minions. Have them swarm the barbarian in small clusters to keep him busy turn-by-turn. If he's an ubercharger, denying charge turns his damage off.
No-save-immobilization spells and anti-magic will need to be cycled on the monk while he's being fed minions in 1s and 2s to keep him on the ground and from doing anything productive.
Priority focus should be on the necromancer. Dump an Anti-magic field on his head, and use more infinite time-loop shenanigans to bring in your biggest, baddest thralls just out of the field.
One of them should be an anti-caster built fighter/rogue with Penetrating strike who cycles readied actions to interrupt casting just in case, the other could be a fighter/crusader-warblade trip build with combat reflexes for as many tripping AoOs as possible.
After they geek the mage, mind-control the barbarian into a meat-puppet and use him to lightly tenderize the monk; whichever of them wins that fight still has a spellcaster that they likely haven't even spotted yet flying around to try to kill while getting mobbed by hundreds more weenies, and locked down by a pair of synergized ******* fighters.

Basically: Crowd control everything with specialized methods to keep them from doing anything, kill the caster first. Make the barbarian who likely won't be making that will-save go beat the stuffing out of the monk. Combine anti-magic and minion swarms to weaken the monk, then focus on melting his face in.

The encounter starts with a single NPC with Player Class Levels, so exactly 1/4th of an appropriate encounter that the party doesn't even know it's fighting yet.
Suddenly, they're mobbed by a bunch of angry guys that showed up out of no-where, and the caster realizes his magic is off while Biff and Bubbles try to make friends with him.
And then the barbarian starts trying to kill his teammates. And after that the entire situation keeps getting worse.

... I was planning on using this exact encounter as the final boss fight in my current campaign, but without all the gestalts, and Biff is a DMM: Persist Timestop cleric while Bubbles is an illusionist wizard instead. But you said you wanted to give the party a chance.


This is probably one of the most evil things I've ever read.

[ExLibrisMortis]

You can just become immune to (death through) damage, either with regeneration + immunity to nonlethal damage or supernatural persistent delay death and beastland ferocity. That will shut down the barbarian and the ninja. The caster is a bigger problem - you should probably drop them first, most likely involving the use of extra actions (in case your first spell targets an immunity). Since it seems you'll be outnumbered, put some paladin and hexblade levels on one side of the gestalt, to get CHA to saves and CHA to saves vs. spells, respectively.

[ThirdProgenitor]

I'm pretty sure balance was thrown out the window as soon as "Gestalt Sorc/Cleric Evolved Lich" was uttered.

For reference on just what you plan to do, post a song and I will build a villain based upon it.

I've been looking for a while now.... i can't find anything suitable.. still looking though.

[TheifofZ]

This is probably one of the most evil things I've ever read.

I do try, thank you.

Of course, if you want to make it really evil, then have all the lowest level minions be shirtless and posing in stereotypical body-builder poses while they wait their turn.
Have Biff and Bubbles use lines that are very specifically also euphemisms for rape when they're talking to/taunting the caster.

But you know, there's going too far, and there's going too far.

[Aegis013]

Psionic-Thrallherd/Wizard-Spell to Power Erudite gestalt that's been Baleful Polymorphed into a fly, but made the will save.


I like all of it except this. Your BBEG Baleful Polymorphed into a fly who had made his will save can't utilize his time stop shenanigans or buff his thralls. (Or even maintain his thralls, most likely)


With those exceptions, the target’s normal game statistics are replaced by those of the new form. The target loses all the special abilities it has in its normal form, including its class features.

The Fort save will prevent the change into a fly, and the Will save only keeps the memories, language, HD and HP of the creature. You'll need another method of becoming a fly, which shouldn't be too hard to find.

[TheifofZ]

Ooooh, you're right.

Well, there are work-arounds. Just have to dig them up.