Worst CR'ed Monsters

[Banjoman42]

What are your favorite badly given challenge ratings on monsters? I know the Tarrasque and That Damn Crab have pretty much become punchlines as far as Challenge ratings go, but what other poorly leveled monsters are there that make you laugh?

My personal favourite is a Outsider from MMIII (I think, can't remember its name) which had Cloudkill as a SLA twice per day and has a 40% chance to summon another one of itself. Got Death Ward? Well, sucks to suck, 'cause it has Dispel magic too.

[edwin1993]

the allip out of monster manual 3.5. since it as a cr 2 can defeat the tarrasque

[Blackhawk748]

That Damn Crab. Seriously that thing is not CR 3, 4 or 5 maybe, but definitely not 3.

[AvatarVecna]

I can't remember what it's called or where it's from, but there's a CR 9 monster that has 3 at-will SLAs...one of which is (IIRC) Implosion. The other two are about as bad.

It's "balanced" because it's only supposed to be encountered with this large group of other similar creatures, but on its own...prepare to get rekt.

[Venger]

I can't remember what it's called or where it's from, but there's a CR 9 monster that has 3 at-will SLAs...one of which is (IIRC) Implosion. The other two are about as bad.

It's "balanced" because it's only supposed to be encountered with this large group of other similar creatures, but on its own...prepare to get rekt.

you are thinking of the adamantine horror, from MM2, universally reviled, alongside fiend folio, as having some of the most inaccurate CRs in the game in both directions.

I nominate the drowned. undead that force you to look up the drowning rules and kill you in 3 rounds. with a +20 racial hide/ms check, it's gonna sneak up on you.

[Douglas]

I can't remember what it's called or where it's from, but there's a CR 9 monster that has 3 at-will SLAs...one of which is (IIRC) Implosion. The other two are about as bad.

It's "balanced" because it's only supposed to be encountered with this large group of other similar creatures, but on its own...prepare to get rekt.
That's the Adamantine Horror, and its other at-will SLAs are Disjunction and Disintegrate.

Another major one from MM2 is the Immoth - supposedly CR 9, yet it has the casting of a level 12 Sorcerer plus a whole lot more on top, including "at least" 3d4+2 uses of casting a pre-selected spell of any level as a free action.

[Crake]

That's the Adamantine Horror, and its other at-will SLAs are Disjunction and Disintegrate.

Another major one from MM2 is the Immoth - supposedly CR 9, yet it has the casting of a level 12 Sorcerer plus a whole lot more on top, including "at least" 3d4+2 uses of casting a pre-selected spell of any level as a free action.

Yeah, as a personal rule, if something has innate casting, i bring it's CR up to that of the caster level, if not +1 or 2 based on it's abilities. It needs to be horribly weak and frail to be brought below equal CR to it's casting imo

[Venger]

Yeah, as a personal rule, if something has innate casting, i bring it's CR up to that of the caster level, if not +1 or 2 based on it's abilities. It needs to be horribly weak and frail to be brought below equal CR to it's casting imo

even if that's the case, it doesn't make a bit of difference, certainly not enough to lower CR. case in point, ethergaunts and spellweavers.

[Elandris Kajar]

The fiendwurm from either FC or mm2. CR 28 and no flight.

[Rockphed]

even if that's the case, it doesn't make a bit of difference, certainly not enough to lower CR. case in point, ethergaunts and spellweavers.

So, in other words, creatures should not have spell casting above their CR? That sounds about right. A level 1 party running into a CR3, level 3 wizard will have quite the fight on their hands, if he survives long enough to actually zap them.

[ranagrande]

My personal favorite is a Tauric Spell Weaver - Camel.

Good stats all around, 6th level spells, lots of extra abilities...

CR 2.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Templates and commonly-stated stuff (like Allips/TDC/Adamantine Horror) aside, some of my "favorites" are...

Revived Fossil Baboons are CR 1 with 25 AC, 26 HP, DR 10/Adamantine, 40 foot move speed, undead immunities, and two 2d6+4 claw attacks per round.

Steel Dragons have spellcasting far above their CR, plus nearly-unbeatable SR for the spells the PCs can cast, plus regular dragon benefits.

And of course, Legion Devils (CR3) quickly get out of hand once you start grouping them in the double digits.

[nyjastul69]

the allip out of monster manual 3.5. since it as a cr 2 can defeat the tarrasque

Did the MM errata lower the CR of allips? It seems they are considered CR 3.

[unseenmage]

I'd have to nominate whole books for this 'honour'.

The Monstrous Compendium: Monsters of Faerun splat has some of the worst CRed critters ever, its like a whole book of That Damn Crab. Even the 3.5 update doesn't fix it.

The Epic Level Handbook is right there with it though if for no other reason than at epic the rocket tag effect makes CR mostly meaningless.

More specifically? Chokers and anything else that gets 3.0 Haste. As well as any creature that summons or creates more creatures on the spot. Because the only way to properly CR mobs is as mobs and creatures that make mobs never seem to take that into account.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

A venerable Dragonwrought Kobold Dracolich Warrior 1 with two flaws for Epic Toughness twice is CR 1. It has 72 hp, a paralyzing gaze attack, and three attacks/round each of which inflict paralysis.

[Killer Angel]

I'll go for "CR far too high"

The Hecatoncheires. He's got a CR of 57, and can make 100 attacks at +73. And needs a spell to fly.
Luckily for it, with 100 attacks, it will roll some nat 20, because at that level i don't think a +73 is that impressive: The Flesh Colossus hits at +79, and it's a CR27.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Steel Dragons have spellcasting far above their CR, plus nearly-unbeatable SR for the spells the PCs can cast, plus regular dragon benefits.

A lot of dragons get silly. Time and tome dragons from Dragon Magazine are just nightmarish and golds are fairly solid combatants. The really obnoxious one is pyroclastic; it's breath weapon instantly kills on a failed fort save and AFAIK there is no way to defend against it other than not being hit or having a solid fort. Naturally to make up for their lack of spellcasting they have higher than normal HD for their CR.

[Mordrigar]

I'll go for "CR far too high"

The Hecatoncheires. He's got a CR of 57, and can make 100 attacks at +73. And needs a spell to fly.
Luckily for it, with 100 attacks, it will roll some nat 20, because at that level i don't think a +73 is that impressive: The Flesh Colossus hits at +79, and it's a CR27.

IIRC, there's something like "whenever one of these creatures rise, one pantheon fall" written in it's flavor text.

Seriously? You can run away from that thing with level 3 spell or you can make yourself immune to magical metals with level 7 spell. That creature attacks with magical swords, lol.

Also, I think Vampire Lord template has terribly low CR. Vampire gives +2 and lord gives +3 iirc.

+5 CR for being nearly unbeatable seems cool.

Also, Wil-o-wisp is really strong for CR6. It's nearly immune to magic, it can fly, be invisible. Also relatively high (29) AC for that level. Plus it has touch attacks.

[YossarianLives]

I think SRD orcs deserve a mention. 17 strength and a falchion, one hit from that could bring down pretty much any level one character.

[legomaster00156]

Surprised nobody brought up the intentionally under-CR'd dragons yet.

[Draconium]

Surprised nobody brought up the intentionally under-CR'd dragons yet.

I think you just missed it.


A lot of dragons get silly. Time and tome dragons from Dragon Magazine are just nightmarish and golds are fairly solid combatants. The really obnoxious one is pyroclastic; it's breath weapon instantly kills on a failed fort save and AFAIK there is no way to defend against it other than not being hit or having a solid fort. Naturally to make up for their lack of spellcasting they have higher than normal HD for their CR.

I agree, though. Dragons, as a rule of thumb, are under-CR'd after a certain age. The one time I threw a halfway-decent dragon at a party of an "appropriate" ECL, it ended in a near-TPK. And the dragon wasn't even halfway dead.

Granted, they weren't the most optimized party either, but a intelligently, played dragon is usually not a good idea to throw at a party that "could take it on."

[noob]

Well your players are not team level 13 priest/wizard then.
One underCred monster I really like is that angel with CL 12 at CR 10 and prismatic rays as a sla and a bunch of at will like poly-morph or fireball.

[Tvtyrant]

There is that super low HD, low CR gargantuan dragon from Faerun which lacks wings. The Ibrandlin, that was it. CR5 for a gargantuan creature.

Monsters of Faerun also has the Banelar, which has 6th level casting as a wizard and a cleric, while being huge, and also CR5.

[Deophaun]

In a PbP I just saw an ephemeral swarm from MMIII.

12 HD swarm. Incorporeal. Auto 1d6 Str damage.

CR 5.

[legomaster00156]

Oh, on the other end, let's talk over-CR'd monsters. Specifically, the Tarrasque, which can be defeated by a reasonably well-prepared level 13 caster. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?66469-Beat-the-tarrasque-with-a-13th-level-character) CR 16 or so, maybe, but even then, it has no flight or ranged attacks.

[unseenmage]

There is that super low HD, low CR gargantuan dragon from Faerun which lacks wings. The Ibrandlin, that was it. CR5 for a gargantuan creature.

Monsters of Faerun also has the Banelar, which has 6th level casting as a wizard and a cleric, while being huge, and also CR5.

As I mentioned above the Monsters of Faerun splat is full of That Damn Crab analogues. That book's version of the dragonborn are all kinds of under CRed too.


Oh, on the other end, let's talk over-CR'd monsters. Specifically, the Tarrasque, which can be defeated by a reasonably well-prepared level 13 caster. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?66469-Beat-the-tarrasque-with-a-13th-level-character) CR 16 or so, maybe, but even then, it has no flight or ranged attacks.

The OP did mention that the Tarrasque is at the top of the proverbial list alongside That Damn Crab (which I cannot currently find my link to...)

[Tvtyrant]

In the Tarrasque line is the Seisnosaurus from MMII, which does barely any damage but it colossal and has buckets of health.

[ZamielVanWeber]

IIRC Sharon are pretty bad. They have excellent mobility, annihilate the action economy, and cast as a 6th level sorcerer and a 6th level favored soul.

[The Viscount]

Hulking Corpse from LM is a CR 9 encounter with 20 HD, improved grab, rend, and DR 5.
What makes it trivial is that that's all the thing has, and it's a mindless undead. Command undead has been online for 6 levels, and ends the encounter in a single action.

[Necroticplague]

IIRC Sharon are pretty bad. They have excellent mobility, annihilate the action economy, and cast as a 6th level sorcerer and a 6th level favored soul.

1.There's no o, it's just Sharn.

2.They have 3 standard actions, one move action, regeneration/law (because I can count the times I've seen people actually use lawful weapons on one hand), actually have an improved version of sorc6/favored soul6 casting (they cast their spells as SLAs, with all the benefits that entails).

[ZamielVanWeber]

1.There's no o, it's just Sharn.

2.They have 3 standard actions, one move action, regeneration/law (because I can count the times I've seen people actually use lawful weapons on one hand), actually have an improved version of sorc6/favored soul6 casting (they cast their spells as SLAs, with all the benefits that entails).

If you would notice of my sig I covered this. My tablet and phone both have autocorrect and I don't always catch them.(I was also AFB so I couldn't list all the goodies). They are the only monstrous race I have ever been banned from playing simply because the DM was not sure if he could meaningfully hurt me. They are outrageous.

[Solaris]

The OP did mention that the Tarrasque is at the top of the proverbial list alongside That Damn Crab (which I cannot currently find my link to...)

Then permit me to provide a link to the crustacean doom (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fw/20040221a)!

[unseenmage]

Then permit me to provide a link to the crustacean doom (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fw/20040221a)!

Thank you. Has been summarily re-bookmarked.

Edit: And added to the list of random vermin and non-type changing templates in my sig. Speaking of under CRed monsters Warbeast (MM2) That Damn Crab is purchasable at level way-too-soon.

[Thurbane]

IIRC Sharon are pretty bad. They have excellent mobility, annihilate the action economy, and cast as a 6th level sorcerer and a 6th level favored soul.

1.There's no o, it's just Sharn.

http://i60.tinypic.com/2n195ra.jpg

[Dromuthra]

I like this thread: link. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?315230-The-most-unbalanced-monsters-for-each-CR-up-to-20-%28or-so%29)

[ZamielVanWeber]

http://i60.tinypic.com/2n195ra.jpg

I laughed so hard I went into a coughing fit.

[JBarca]

No love for the Elemental Weirds?

Let's take a quick look. First, a mountain of Divination usable at-will, as free actions. These include Foresight, Discern Location, Detect Thoughts, Greater Scrying, and True Seeing. Cool. They know who you are, where you are, and what you're thinking.

But what do they do once they've found you? Well, they also cast spells as an 18th level Sorcerer. This 18th level Sorcerer has access to two Domains, themed to each Weird's specific element (Air and Travel, Earth and Destruction, etc.). So that's a respectable amount of firepower.

They've also got a slew of minor abilities, including the ability to always be surrounded by perfectly loyal Elementals (including some Greater (CR 9) and Elder (CR 11) Elementals.

Ok. So these guys would be a tough challenge for a relatively optimized, high-level, high-tier party, right?

So I guess it's a good thing they sit solidly at CR 12. That's right. Fighting one of these things is well within what WotC would expect of a CR 9 party. Nothing quite like going up against near-omniscient beings slinging 9ths once you've manage to get 5ths, right?

[Cool Trash]

I have no idea if the PFSRD is wrong on this one, because I can't find this thing in the Bestiary or Paizo, but, well:
The Giant Elk (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/animals/herd-animals/elk/herd-animal-elk-giant)
8 hit dice, 76 hit points, a +14 to attack, and an average of 17 damage per hit. CR 2. Maybe I'm just not the most experienced DM, but it seems like one of these things, on it's lonesome, would drop at least half a balanced 2nd level party before dying.

Accidentally mistook this thing for the much more sensible river elk during a rushed bit of planning and had to retcon the murder of the party rogue.

[Venger]

So, in other words, creatures should not have spell casting above their CR? That sounds about right. A level 1 party running into a CR3, level 3 wizard will have quite the fight on their hands, if he survives long enough to actually zap them.

Yeah, not if you want them to be appropriately CRe they shouldn't.


Did the MM errata lower the CR of allips? It seems they are considered CR 3.

no, he is just mistaken about their CR. they are, and always have been cr 3, as stated on the srd (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/allip.htm)


I think you just missed it.

I agree, though. Dragons, as a rule of thumb, are under-CR'd after a certain age. The one time I threw a halfway-decent dragon at a party of an "appropriate" ECL, it ended in a near-TPK. And the dragon wasn't even halfway dead.

Granted, they weren't the most optimized party either, but a intelligently, played dragon is usually not a good idea to throw at a party that "could take it on."

it doesn't help that all dragons without the cold subtype can be killed with shivering touch.


http://i60.tinypic.com/2n195ra.jpg

that's amazing.

on the side of hilariously over cr'ed, I nominate the famine spirit. a big, fat tub of guts with a gazillion hit points, no flight, and no ranged attacks. CR 19. you can literally throw rocks at him and plink him to death, since he's got no DR. (he's got fast healing 10, but at cr 19, or really even a third of that, you shouldn't care) he's an absolute cakewalk.

and who could forget the classic ghost brute shrieker? no attacks, no movement speed, no str, dex, con, or int.

CR 3.

It's theorized that large farms of these creatures are how aristocrats reap their experience.

[Draconium]

it doesn't help that all dragons without the cold subtype can be killed with shivering touch.

Well, not killed, but certainly disabled. Unless the dragon prepared Scintillating Scales and boosted their touch AC high enough that the spellcaster couldn't hit it, anyways.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Well, not killed, but certainly disabled. Unless the dragon prepared Scintillating Scales and boosted their touch AC high enough that the spellcaster couldn't hit it, anyways.

Or casts greater mirror image or has improved invisibility up. (Great)Wyrm dragons have enough intelligence to know that they are vulnerable to Shivering Touch and try to defend against it.

Also Shivering Touch is not as effective against Gem Dragons. Their dex isn't locked to 10 like most dragons.

[P.F.]

No love for the Elemental Weirds?

Let's take a quick look. First, a mountain of Divination usable at-will, as free actions. These include Foresight, Discern Location, Detect Thoughts, Greater Scrying, and True Seeing. Cool. They know who you are, where you are, and what you're thinking.

But what do they do once they've found you? Well, they also cast spells as an 18th level Sorcerer. This 18th level Sorcerer has access to two Domains, themed to each Weird's specific element (Air and Travel, Earth and Destruction, etc.). So that's a respectable amount of firepower.

They've also got a slew of minor abilities, including the ability to always be surrounded by perfectly loyal Elementals (including some Greater (CR 9) and Elder (CR 11) Elementals.

Ok. So these guys would be a tough challenge for a relatively optimized, high-level, high-tier party, right?

So I guess it's a good thing they sit solidly at CR 12. That's right. Fighting one of these things is well within what WotC would expect of a CR 9 party. Nothing quite like going up against near-omniscient beings slinging 9ths once you've manage to get 5ths, right?

Except they can only go 10 feet from their special place. Their entire purpose is to serve as seers that players can consult for information. If you mess up, you could at least flee the encounter.

Now of course, in my group they are legendary because one of our DM's decided to throw one of these at us, minus the "cannot travel more than 10 feet from its portal" restriction. So this nigh-omniscient, elemental-summoning, SR-25-having, chain-ligntning-casting, immune-to-most-of-our-damage-and-abilities freak of nature decides it doesn't like our faces, chases us down, and kills us. "It's only a CR 12," he says ...

[Talion]

If I may be so bold, I'd like to nominate: The Player Party

You can never be sure quite what you're going to get, but as the 'CR' (forgive me) goes up, so does their ability to treat most situations as trivial.

As for the monsters bit? Well, I don't know about you, but I can't think of many other entities that leave behind as severe a trail of destruction as the player party. :smallbiggrin:

[Draconium]

If I may be so bold, I'd like to nominate: The Player Party

You can never be sure quite what you're going to get, but as the 'CR' (forgive me) goes up, so does their ability to treat most situations as trivial.

As for the monsters bit? Well, I don't know about you, but I can't think of many other entities that leave behind as severe a trail of destruction as the player party. :smallbiggrin:

Allow me to take this one step further: The Optimized Player Party.

Challenge Rating? Unknown - they've been able to pretty much steamroll over any enemies they go up against. :smalltongue:

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

A lot of dragons get silly. Time and tome dragons from Dragon Magazine are just nightmarish and golds are fairly solid combatants. The really obnoxious one is pyroclastic; it's breath weapon instantly kills on a failed fort save and AFAIK there is no way to defend against it other than not being hit or having a solid fort. Naturally to make up for their lack of spellcasting they have higher than normal HD for their CR.I'm AFB regarding Dragon Magazine stuff, but aren't Time and Tome dragons epic CR for the most part? Steel Dragons start getting ridiculous around CR 5 (juvenile), or lower than that if we're allowing modifications like Spellhoarding and Loredrake.

I find that pyroclastic dragons are like a rich man's cockatrice. Yes, they can kill you, but an optimized party is going to end that thing before it gets to act, or find a way to ignore the effect*. Steel Dragons are much harder to actually take down, what with their ridiculous SR and their caster level far above CR.

Speaking of which, I would note that Shivering Touch allows Spell Resistance, meaning the Steel Dragon will laugh it off. A juvenile (CR 5) has SR 32 against spells of level 4 or lower. By the time you know about this effective globe of invulnerability up to 4th level spells and can do something about it (specifically, heightening Shivering Touch to 5th or higher), a CR 11 Adult Steel Dragon is casting at CL 15 and still has a base SR of 28 before Awaken Spell Resistance. Bump that age category up twice more (for a piddly 2 CR; or just allow Loredrake) and he has 9ths; game over.

*Methods to ignore Disintegrating Breath, as opposed to alpha striking the pyroclastic dragon:
1. Don't be within line of effect.
2. Don't be within line of sight, and hope the DM doesn't have the dragon "get lucky" and guess your square.
3. Have a great fortitude save. Example: A character with a high CON score, good fortitude progression in class levels, a little magical help, and Steadfast Determination will laugh it off.
4. Be immune to the effect. Note that Disintegrating Breath is not "as disintegration." If it were, it would say so in the line, or at least do damage instead of automatically killing the subject. Hence, the breath weapon does not affect objects (which also helps method 1), and immunity to fortitude saves that don't affect objects would work. So, Necropolitans laugh it off as well, with a little rules lawyering.

[Deophaun]

Allow me to take this one step further: The Optimized Player Party.

Challenge Rating? Unknown - they've been able to pretty much steamroll over any enemies they go up against. :smalltongue:

Indeed. I've seen a level 7 PC Wizard defeat a level 21 Druid DMPC/BBEG. If you cannot solve a problem with explosive runes and celestial monkeys, then you just aren't using enough.

[ZamielVanWeber]

I'm AFB regarding Dragon Magazine stuff, but aren't Time and Tome dragons epic CR for the most part? Steel Dragons start getting ridiculous around CR 5 (juvenile), or lower than that if we're allowing modifications like Spellhoarding and Loredrake.]

Tome don't hit epic until old. A tome at cr 5, at base, has telepathy 100 ft, arcane sight at will, an +1 insight bonus to AC and saved, fly speed of 90 (good), casts as a 5th level sorcerer, does not increase casting time when he applies metamagics, and gets a -1 to the final cost of metamagics applied to his spells. His int is higher than his charisma so Spellhoarding and Loredrake combined make him a monster at CR 5.

[Gracht Grabmaw]

the allip out of monster manual 3.5. since it as a cr 2 can defeat the tarrasque

Ghosts in general are pretty goddamn scary since being able to fight them at all pretty much depends on how much magic you got going on in the party.
I often play games with very limited or no magic items and in very martially focused groups (my current Forgotten Realms party is a barbarian, a ranger, a fighter and a rogue) We're 5th to 7th level and an allip would still ruin our day.

[Starbuck_II]

you are thinking of the adamantine horror, from MM2, universally reviled, alongside fiend folio, as having some of the most inaccurate CRs in the game in both directions.

I nominate the drowned. undead that force you to look up the drowning rules and kill you in 3 rounds. with a +20 racial hide/ms check, it's gonna sneak up on you.

But the Adamantine Horror is a unique creature if you read the description. So you will never fight more than one. He is a boss dude.

[Amphetryon]

For "Worst CR" in the other direction, I nominate the Ogre Magi. I've yet to see them used in a way that caused more than 2 Rounds of combat before they become fine red mist.

[Yael]

Heh, I gladly will vote for the Psionic Illithid.

HD+1 Telepath level, in a game where for each 4 Aberration HD his CR increases by 1? Yeah, right... He's totally CR 8.

[Solaris]

For "Worst CR" in the other direction, I nominate the Ogre Magi. I've yet to see them used in a way that caused more than 2 Rounds of combat before they become fine red mist.

I'd have to agree, despite the fact that they're one of my favorite monsters. Regeneration and at-will invisibility make it an interesting fight for around 5th-6th level. By 8th level, that low hit points doesn't let them live long enough to use either one.

[danzibr]

My personal favorite is a Tauric Spell Weaver - Camel.

Good stats all around, 6th level spells, lots of extra abilities...

CR 2.
This is my new favorite.

[Vaern]

Has anyone mentioned the grell from MM2 yet? This thing has innate flight, and its full attack is 10 tentacles with 10 ft reach, and every one of those attacks applies a paralysis poison on top of their normal damage. Even with a good fortitude bonus, someone's bound to roll a natural 1 eventually.
The thing has improved grab on top of that, and to make up for that pesky -20 penalty for attempting to grapple a target with a single tentacle they decided to give the thing a +16 racial bonus to grapple checks. By the way, if it catches you and you manage to cut off the tentacle that's holding you, the damage to that tentacle doesn't apply to the creature itself.

CR 3

[sleepyphoenixx]

Ghosts in general are pretty goddamn scary since being able to fight them at all pretty much depends on how much magic you got going on in the party.
I often play games with very limited or no magic items and in very martially focused groups (my current Forgotten Realms party is a barbarian, a ranger, a fighter and a rogue) We're 5th to 7th level and an allip would still ruin our day.
WBL is a big part of a parties expected power level. If you don't hand out magic items the problem isn't the CR system (which expects characters to have items appropiate to their level), it's the fact that you don't give your players any magic items.

There's nothing wrong with playing that way, but you need to compensate for it because the game expects magic items when considering how challenging an encounter is.
Sure, an Allip is a pretty scary encounter for a normal level 3 party. But at level 5 to 7 it's not much of a threat.
The only one to blame is the DM for not letting the players have the basic gear they need to be as strong as the game expects them to be.


Has anyone mentioned the grell from MM2 yet? This thing has innate flight, and its full attack is 10 tentacles with 10 ft reach, and every one of those attacks applies a paralysis poison on top of their normal damage. Even with a good fortitude bonus, someone's bound to roll a natural 1 eventually.
The thing has improved grab on top of that, and to make up for that pesky -20 penalty for attempting to grapple a target with a single tentacle they decided to give the thing a +16 racial bonus to grapple checks. By the way, if it catches you and you manage to cut off the tentacle that's holding you, the damage to that tentacle doesn't apply to the creature itself.

CR 3
MM2 in general is a big pile of ridiculous monsters, with most of them tending into the "overpowered mess with too low CR" region instead of "ridiculously weak".
Seriously, don't use MM2 unless you know what you're doing and your players can handle it. And don't allow the druid to wildshape into any forms from that book without checking first, especially not if he has Aberration Wild Shape.

[Eldan]

I'd have to agree, despite the fact that they're one of my favorite monsters. Regeneration and at-will invisibility make it an interesting fight for around 5th-6th level. By 8th level, that low hit points doesn't let them live long enough to use either one.

Yeah. They are nice, sure. But I can't help the feelign that for the same challenge rating, you could take a normal ogre (CR 3), give it the elite array with, say, 15 wisdom (CR 4) and then stick on levels of non-associated wisdom-based spellcating of some kind and have something that is vastly more threatening in every way.

Heck, take assoicated levels. Elite array, 15 wisdom, 4 levels of psychic warrior. Quite impressive in close combat, some buff spells, and cloud mind if you want it invisible.

[Deophaun]

Has anyone mentioned the grell from MM2 yet? This thing has innate flight, and its full attack is 10 tentacles with 10 ft reach, and every one of those attacks applies a paralysis poison on top of their normal damage. Even with a good fortitude bonus, someone's bound to roll a natural 1 eventually.
That's cheating. The Grell was updated in LoM. It now only gets 1 paralysis attack against any individual creature, with a scaling DC based on how many tentacles hit.

Furthermore, it's blind, and has nothing to detect you if you are more than 60 ft away. And it appears in the same book that has Darkstalker, making it doubly screwed. A group of level 1s could take it down, although they'd likely lose one character to an ambush.

[Solaris]

Yeah. They are nice, sure. But I can't help the feelign that for the same challenge rating, you could take a normal ogre (CR 3), give it the elite array with, say, 15 wisdom (CR 4) and then stick on levels of non-associated wisdom-based spellcating of some kind and have something that is vastly more threatening in every way.

Heck, take assoicated levels. Elite array, 15 wisdom, 4 levels of psychic warrior. Quite impressive in close combat, some buff spells, and cloud mind if you want it invisible.

I'd gotten a lot of mileage out of abusing sneak attack (from a couple of rogue levels), at-will invisible, and flight with a reach weapon outdoors.
My players were not amused.

[Thurbane]

I feel sorry for the Ogre Mage. Such a great, classic monster, and so badly designed in 3.5.

There was an attempt at a redesign that wasn't too bad: http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dd/20060721a

...or you can abuse loopholes in the CR system to make the SRD/MM Ogre Mage more scary: non-associated class levels and NPC WBL (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?230616-3-5-Monster-Challenge-Ogre-Mage), for example; or, my favourite, an Ogre Mage Were-Battletitan (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?432184-3-5-Ogre-Mage-Were-Battle-Titan)...41 HD for CR 14.

[elonin]

I've never been good at rating CR levels (or spell levels for that matter). One piece of advice given for CR calculation is to compare it to other monster in established guides. Does CR even work if you have a party type that doesn't deal well with a type of threat? Say the arcanist is a god-wizard type who doesn't prep area affect spells. That party is going to have a rough time with oozes and puddings. Seriously one of the criticisms mentioned here is the Terrasque coudl be taken down by a well prepared wizard of 13th level. Sure but without the right combo of spells which might not be effective against other threats you're up a creek.