How would you rate Spelldancer?

[Masakan]

And assume persistent spell is off the table.

[DarkSonic1337]

Without persistent spell there are still a few metamagics you could abuse.

Ocular spell still works for a little nova'ing on the first round.

Echoing Spell can allow you to cast the same spells repeatedly, albeit with reduced caster level and an hour wait between them (Echoing Mnemonic Enhancer can let you trade 1 4th level slot for multiple packs of 3 spell levels. Similar thing with Mage's Lucibration). Echoing Spell can also be used to tag on more combat oriented metamagics. For example, you could cast echoing, quickened true strike and one hour later you'd get echoing quickened true strike prepared at -4 caster level, letting you take advantage of the reduced casting time even though spelldancing wouldn't normally be compatible.

Free Extends are still nice for out of combat buffs.

Free Repeat Spells or Twin Spells can get you extra duty out of spells with costly components.

I think if you're going for swiftblade/abjurant champion, spending the 1 extra feat to qualify for 1 level of spelldancer might be worth it, even without persistent spell.

[Cruiser1]

And assume persistent spell is off the table.
Indeed, Spelldancer is still great even without Persistent Spell. It's a full casting PrC, that's almost entirely frontloaded into its first level. Therefore it's frequently worth considering for a build, assuming you can pay the feat tax (and all four feats can be obtained with spells and/or items, assuming your DM allows that).

As already said, Spelldancer makes a great Mailman blaster, because you use Ocular spell along with metamagic like Empower/Maximize/Twin/Repeat/Energy Admixture/Split Ray to charge yourself up with a huge nuke in preparation for your next combat.

[Saintheart]

Not to be the black hat here, but the class has a bunch of really horrible prerequisites: four feat slots burned on stuff that a smart caster should never need to use: Dodge, Mobility, Endurance, and Combat Casting. While it's possible to get in by level 7, you're going to have to utilise flaws and you're down to rather specific races to get in that early. And bear in mind Spelldance 1 only applies to metamagic you've already got, so having strained to get into the class that early you'll be waiting around another 2 or 3 levels to actually use it. The 5/5 casting saves it from being a no-go, but the wasted feat slots can be used on a lot more powerful stuff than this.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Not to be the black hat here, but the class has a bunch of really horrible prerequisites: four feat slots burned on stuff that a smart caster should never need to use: Dodge, Mobility, Endurance, and Combat Casting. While it's possible to get in by level 7, you're going to have to utilise flaws and you're down to rather specific races to get in that early. And bear in mind Spelldance 1 only applies to metamagic you've already got, so having strained to get into the class that early you'll be waiting around another 2 or 3 levels to actually use it. The 5/5 casting saves it from being a no-go, but the wasted feat slots can be used on a lot more powerful stuff than this.

You can get by with feats. Human Martial Wizard to trade Scribe Scroll for Dodge, Mobility as your first level feat, Combat Casting as the bonus feat, Endurance at 3rd level.
If you dip a level of rogue for tumble and perform as class skills you can trade in sneak attack for Mobility instead, so you're only out 2 feats.
You can also get a bonus metamagic feat at wizard 5.

Sure, it's expensive to enter, but free metamagic is incredibly powerful. Worth losing a level of casting progression? I'd say yes, unless you go into Incantatrix.

[Necroticplague]

First off, it's a full-casting PRC. That automatically makes it better than the vast majority of PRCs, because most caster classes give up next to nothing by PRCing out as fast as possible into it. That being said, other than at the first level, the class features are mostly crap. And what you have to do to enter is also crap (four feats, every one of which is useless garbage). However, that first level is incredibly good. The alleged drawback from dancing too much so easy to get around as to be an utterly trivial non-factor. Even with Persist spell off the table, it's still dang good. Split, Twin, Echoing, and Extend (persist's little brother (or in the case of some long-duration spells, persist's big brother) mean you can get more spells for your slots, especially ones that you can use out of combat or which are pretty CL independent (Dominate Person still has pretty much retains most of its utility if it's 4 CL lower, True Strike only needs to last long enough for you to attack, ect.). Extend spell can work just as well as Persist for many medium-long duration spells. Twin Wishes only cost as much as one, so that can make Wishing your stats higher a bit cheaper. Twin buff spells mean all your buffs will need to be dispelled twice before the party loses anything.

[nedz]

You can also get a bonus metamagic feat at wizard 5.
Not with Martial Wizard: your level 5 feat has to be a fighter feat, which is unhelpful.
In fact this is true of Scribe Scroll: none of the Spelldancer pre-req feats are Fighter feats — they are all General.

Human Wizard 3 / Human Paragon 3 (not in that order) can get you in — with a feat to spare. It does cost you a caster level though.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Not with Martial Wizard: your level 5 feat has to be a fighter feat, which is unhelpful.
In fact this is true of Scribe Scroll: none of the Spelldancer pre-req feats are Fighter feats — they are all General.

Human Wizard 3 / Human Paragon 3 (not in that order) can get you in — with a feat to spare. It does cost you a caster level though.

Dodge and Mobility are fighter bonus feats. It's right in their description.
I thought Endurance was too, but it isn't. Still, that's 2 feats you don't have to spend feat slots on, which makes it a lot easier.
For reference, clerics spend that and more to get DMM:Persist, with vastly more limited uses/day unless they blow more feats on Extra Turning.

If you enter as a wizard you'll probably need to lose a caster level either way just to get perform and tumble as class skills, unless you want to wait until level 10 to enter.
It doesn't really matter whether you get a bonus feat from a dip or take both at wizard 1 and 5, since most wizards trade in the 5th level feat anyway.

You'll probably want to take a PrC that adds some bonus metamagic feats to make the most of Spelldancer, but there's actually quite a selection of those and a lot of them are pretty good.

Spellguard of Silverymoon is a decent pick. It needs Combat Casting anyway and gives you 2 extra metamagic feats over 5 levels, and another (Selective Spell) as a class feature that's actually better than the feat. The Spellguard ability is good for all kinds of shenanigans and a free +1 CL doesn't hurt either.

Incantatrix 4 adds two more, but it's kind of overkill on the free metamagic front. It could still be worth it, especially if you can get Iron Will from the Otyugh Hole.

[ExLibrisMortis]

You can use High One Warrior Wizard substitution levels to get Ride as a class skill, then trade it for Tumble as per the Cityscape WE rules. It does cost you some spell slots. Perform is a bit trickier - you can get it from a feat, but a spelldancer is already feat-starved.

[sleepyphoenixx]

You can use High One Warrior Wizard substitution levels to get Ride as a class skill, then trade it for Tumble as per the Cityscape WE rules. It does cost you some spell slots. Perform is a bit trickier - you can get it from a feat, but a spelldancer is already feat-starved.

High One Warrior Wizard needs at least 2 levels of Paladin iirc. At that point you can just dip a level of anything else and come out ahead.

[ExLibrisMortis]

High One Warrior Wizard needs at least 2 levels of Paladin iirc. At that point you can just dip a level of anything else and come out ahead.
Ah, you're right, I never noticed that. Nevermind that option, then.

[Cruiser1]

Perform is a bit trickier - you can get it from a feat, but a spelldancer is already feat-starved.
The most difficult skill requirement for Spelldancer is 6 ranks of Perform (Dance). You can enter Spelldancer at level 10 in any build, by getting 6 ranks in Perform (Dance) cross-class at level 9 (spending 12 ranks: 4 in level 1 + 8 in levels 2-9). If you want to enter Spelldancer earlier, take the feat Apprentice (Entertainer) which makes Perform a class skill in all classes. That allows you to enter Spelldancer at level 6 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?356451), because the next most difficult skill requirement is 4 ranks in Tumble (spend 8 ranks: 4 in level 1 + 4 in levels 2-5).


Incantatrix 4 adds two more, but it's kind of overkill on the free metamagic front.
When it comes to metamagic reduction, there's no such thing as overkill! :smallwink: For example, the build Kerri the Merry Fairy (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?263905-Kerri-the-Merry-Fairy-A-Rainbow-of-Buffs) makes use of all three of Spelldancer, Incantatrix, and Divine Metamagic. Spelldancer is infinitely repeatable (if you can avoid or remove the CON damage) however remember it doesn't work on Evocation and Necromancy school spells. Incantatrix and Divine Metamagic work on all spells, but have limited uses per day.

[nedz]

Dodge and Mobility are fighter bonus feats. It's right in their description.

Ahh, I just looked in the SRD and noticed the lack of a [Fighter] tag. Seems that this isn't documented that way :smallredface:

Still the Human Paragon does solve the Performance issue, gets you a stat boost and a feat.
The other ways of solving the ballroom problem involve feats or dips.

A Sorcerer with the Draconic heritage (Battle) feat from the Draconomicon could do it or you have to take Apprentice (Performer) as has been mentioned.