Defeat a 20th level Barbarian in "martial" mortal combat

[djreynolds]

With SPBI, can you defeat a 20th level barbarian. Its tougher than I thought it would be.

without getting your caster's involved, nor druid, wizard, cleric, bard, warlock, sorcerer

But paladins and eldritch knights are a go.
Multi-classing and feats are good
No magic weapons or armor, for now...... I'll need help with what is appropriate, my apologies
No mounts

27 point buy in
So 15,15,15,8,8,8. I'll go half-orc. +2 strength, +1 con.

17 Str
16 con
15 dex
8 chr
8 wis
8 int

4th level GWM (my feat of choice)
8th level 19 str
12th level 18 con
16th level 20 str 16 dex
20th level 20 con

that's 24,16,24,8,8,8

or whatever you want for the barbarian to leave him competitive, same with feats

Totem 3rd bear, totem 6 bear, totem 14 wolf-nothing says you can't

20 AC no armor, no shield but has one on his back
285 hit points, max hit points 1st, 7 hit points 2-20, or just max for both adversaries.
40 speed,
+6 proficiency
3 initiative
+13 great axe, +13 hand axe (2), +13 javelin (2), +13 long sword sheathed
4 brutal critical with half orc
sailor background
athletics 13, perception 5, survival 5, intimidation 5, nature 5
strength & con save 13
dex 3
int, wis, char, -1

Just for fun.

[Doof]

is Arcane Trickster a fair go?

Anyhow, I think a Rogue can potentially harrass that thinig to death if the battleground allows for him to hide every round.

[Kryx]

A Monk will eventually land a stunning strike and then proceed to pummel or use quivering palm.

[djreynolds]

is Arcane Trickster a fair go?

Anyhow, I think a Rogue can potentially harrass that thinig to death if the battleground allows for him to hide every round.

Yes, he is a go.

[djreynolds]

A Monk will eventually land a stunning strike and then proceed to pummel or use quivering palm.

Yes, you are correct. Open palm can be dex or strength on one of the moves, AFB, but that could work. Would you suggest upping his wisdom as defense as well.

I had a shield and rapier bearing fighter with high dex and con, in full plate. With survivor (18) duelist and defense, a 2 level dip in rogue for cunning action and expertise in strength. Shield master, defensive duelist (I'd rather uncanny dodge, but I do not want to lose survivor) and athlete, so when I get dumped I can get up quickly. The rest is strength for ASI.

[Rhaegar14]

A level 20 Fighter who wins initiative and hits him with an Action Surge nova before the Barbarian can Rage and get his damage resistance going is probably off to a good start. Add in Polearm Master and Sentinel and as long as the Fighter doesn't miss an Opportunity Attack the Barbarian (as presented, with no reach weapon) will have trouble getting into melee and attacking in the same turn. If the Fighter also has Mobile (admittedly an odd choice for a Fighter but not out of the question) then the Barbarian can't even get an opportunity attack when the Fighter moves away from him again. Retreat and poke enough times and EVENTUALLY that Barbarian will go down. A Rogue dip is debatable; on the one hand, that fourth attack will kill that Barbarian faster, but the expertise on Athletics from a Rogue dip will go a long way to making sure that Fighter isn't TOTALLY screwed if the Barbarian gets him in a grapple (+13 with advantage is still a bit better than +17, but not by nearly as much as compared to +11). Being a Battle Master with Precision Attack for his OAs also helps ensure that he won't miss.

So let's see, Fighter with Polearm Master, Great Weapon Master, Sentinel, and Mobile, probably Alert for good measure to help with winning initiative. That still gets the Fighter to Strength 20.

EDIT: Bonus points: this fight would look exactly like The Viper and The Mountain, up until the point where one got stupid.

[Malifice]

A rogue 2/ monk with the mobile feat could just kite it all day long.

Pretty sure an action surging fighter could dish out some pain too.

[Mara]

Variant Human EK sage
Skills: Perception +6, Athletics +11, Arcane +11, History +11, Nature +11
Feats: Ritual caster(wizard), warcaster, +4 str, +4 int, +4 con
Stats: 20 str, 8 dex, 18 con, 20 int, 10 wis, 8 cha
Equipment: plate armor, shield, longsword, javelins
AC 20
HP 204
Saves: +11 str, +10 con (adv on concentration checks due to damage)
Style: dueling
Strat:
Caste Haste, bonus action attack, haste action disengage, move back 60ft.

Next round, shocking grasp/firebolt, bonus action attack. Dash for haste action (120ft movement). Try to keep at range use shocking grasp if in melee. Firebolt/javelins if at range. May need to resummon longsword as bonus action.

Do one of those two every round for 27 rounds, never letting haste drop.

Last round of haste use polymorph to turn into something beefy. Trade hits for a bit.

After polymorph, enlarge person, then disarm barbarian.

After he is disarmed, chop him to death. Burn action surges here. Use shield spells here too.

[Malifice]

Variant Human EK sage
Skills: Perception +6, Athletics +11, Arcane +11, History +11, Nature +11
Feats: Ritual caster(wizard), warcaster, +4 str, +4 int, +4 con
Stats: 20 str, 8 dex, 18 con, 20 int, 10 wis, 8 cha
Equipment: plate armor, shield, longsword, javelins
AC 20
HP 204
Saves: +11 str, +10 con (adv on concentration checks due to damage)
Style: dueling
Strat:
Caste Haste, bonus action attack, haste action disengage, move back 60ft.

Next round, shocking grasp/firebolt, bonus action attack. Dash for haste action (120ft movement). Try to keep at range use shocking grasp if in melee. Firebolt/javelins if at range. May need to resummon longsword as bonus action.

Do one of those two every round for 27 rounds, never letting haste drop.

Last round of haste use polymorph to turn into something beefy. Trade hits for a bit.

After polymorph, enlarge person, then disarm barbarian.

After he is disarmed, chop him to death. Burn action surges here. Use shield spells here too.

He probably goes first (adv on initiative) rages and grabs you (at plus 13 with advantage getting no less than a 24 on each roll). On his next Attack he uses the disarm action to grab your arcane focus off you, or to poke his fingers in your eyes blinding you.

[Rhaegar14]

He probably goes first (adv on initiative) rages and grabs you (at plus 13 with advantage getting no less than a 24 on each roll). On his next Attack he uses the disarm action to grab your arcane focus off you, or to poke his fingers in your eyes blinding you.

Where's he get advantage on initiative? I don't know Barbarian super intimately and might be missing something.

[Malifice]

Where's he get advantage on initiative? I don't know Barbarian super intimately and might be missing something.

Class feature at 7th from memory.

[Rhaegar14]

Fair enough. I take issue with the improvised "poke you in the eye" action, though. Mostly because it kind of implicitly houserules that helmets are suddenly a thing that actually matter, rather than simply cosmetic.

However, disarm of the arcane focus/remove component pouch is a thing that definitely works.

[NNescio]

Fair enough. I take issue with the improvised "poke you in the eye" action, though. Mostly because it kind of implicitly houserules that helmets are suddenly a thing that actually matter, rather than simply cosmetic.

However, disarm of the arcane focus/remove component pouch is a thing that definitely works.

Not if you carry multiples.

[djreynolds]

I definitely feel and see just how powerful 2 levels of rogue are with cunning action and expertise in athletics. Even the EK at level 18, as crazy as it sounds could dip 2 level of rogue.

I like the viper vs the mountain image, and the monk with 2 levels of rogue and 2 level of fighter could be pretty nasty.

Athletics feat for the movement after prone isn't bad, I think level 14 totem wolf will be knocking you down a lot.

I think for EK, I would go Eldarin for that misty step just to get out of trouble and cast haste if the barbarian wins initiative. Mirror image all day long.

Its just that damage reduction, and the not leaving rage unless its his/her choice at 15 is just unfair.

[JellyPooga]

A lvl.20 Arcane Trickster has more than enough spell slots to kill him with Invisibility and Sneak Attack. The Barbarian can Rage an unlimited number of times per day, but there will be a single Rogue turn every minute in which his Rage is not functioning (i.e. no resistance to damage). All the Rogue need do is be Invisible (no terrain required to Hide) and wait for that lull for a Sneak Attack. 1d8+10d6+5 is an average of 64. Multiply by 7 (the number of spell slots of 2nd or higher an AT has) for 448 average damage, unreduced. Far more than the 285hp your Barbarian has. Relentless Rage doesn't function when Raging, so that's not an issue either.

No risk to the Rogue, who is faster (Cunning Action Dash) and is hidden at all times except when making his attack, which he'll do with a Light Crossbow from 80ft away before turning invisible again.

The Rogue takes Expertise in Stealth and Insight. The former to guarantee at least 27 on his Hide check, so the Barbarian cannot ever see him whilst he's hiding with his maximum of 25 on Perception. Insight expertise gives him a minimum of 27 on a check to notice when the Barbarians Rage is lulling.

One. Dead. Barbarian.

[Doof]

I was thinking an Arcane Trickster could just cast Hold Person on him, which would have Wis DC 14 minimum against the barbarian's -1.

Since the barbarian is paralysed, all attacks against him has advantage and all attacks made within 5ft are automatic crits.

[JellyPooga]

I was thinking an Arcane Trickster could just cast Hold Person on him, which would have Wis DC 14 minimum against the barbarian's -1.

Since the barbarian is paralysed, all attacks against him has advantage and all attacks made within 5ft are automatic crits.

It carries a degree of risk, i.e. the Barbarian passing his Saving Throw, small though that chance may be; if you wanted to go down that route, I'd pump Int to 20 for a DC of 19, so he only passes on a natural 20. You're still limited to melee for the auto-crit, if you want it and if you're in melee range, he can hit you back if/when he saves.
You don't have to go melee, though; stay at range on the off-chance of a successful save, sneak attack every turn (halved damage for Rage) and you'll get there. If the Barbarian takes Resilient (Wis) as his optional Feat, though, the chances of this succeeding drop dramatically from 1-in-20 to a 1-in-4 chance of passing.

The Invisible Sniper (as I described) can kill him without the Barbarian having any chance of doing anything significant to the Rogue. The very best the Barbarian can do is return fire against the Rogue on the turn he Sneak Attacks, but as the Rogue started his turn 80ft away and then moved a further 80ft (Cunning Action: Dash + Mobile Feat), the best the Barbarian can do is a Ranged Attack from 120ft; this is out of range of any thrown weapons (i.e. can't use Str), so he's looking at two attacks at +9 to hit and 1d8+3 damage each with a longbow. With Uncanny Dodge, this won't even scratch the surface of the Rogues HP and that's the best the Barbarian can do.

[Malifice]

Fair enough. I take issue with the improvised "poke you in the eye" action, though. Mostly because it kind of implicitly houserules that helmets are suddenly a thing that actually matter, rather than simply cosmetic.

However, disarm of the arcane focus/remove component pouch is a thing that definitely works.

Opposed athletics checks or be blinded a round. Move on.

God I love that about 5e.

[Maxilian]

A monk could easily harass him with a hit and run tactic or just play a BM with a Spider mount (small race), yeah i know that you say no mount, but the BM pet is part of the class per se... so yeah....

[JellyPooga]

A monk could easily harass him with a hit and run tactic

I'm not so sure a Monk could hit-and-run a Barbarian easily, per se. He's not quite fast enough to plain outrun him without Ki and if he's spending Ki on speed, he's not able to spend it on offensive options.

If the Barbarian gets a chance to lock the Monk down with a Grapple, the Monk is toast. The Monks save-or-die/suck effects are all physical saves (Str/Dex/Con), which the Barbarian is good at.

If the Monk gets lucky, he might put the screw on a Barbarian with hit-and-run, but he needs to be lucky. I wouldn't call it a sure win by a long stretch.

A Monk is better off going 4-elements Monk and using Hold Person to achieve the same thing an Arcane Trickster might (with less reliability; the Monk only gets 6 uses, the AT has 7).

[Finieous]

Paladin, hold person, auto-crit smite the barbarian to smithereens?

[CNagy]

Stabnacious Bloodgulper
Arcane Trickster 12/Eldritch Knight 8
Mountain Dwarf Outlander

Str:17>20
Dex:13
Con:17>18
Int:12>14
Wis:8
Cha:8

ASI (Strength), ASI (Intelligence), ASI (Str + Con), Grappler, War Caster, Defensive Duelist, Tough

HP: 232
AC: 19 (Full Plate, Defense style)
Saves: Str +11, Con +10, Dex +1, Int +2, Wis -1, Cha -1

Skills+: Athletics +17*, Sleight of Hand +13*, Intimidate +11*, Survival +11*, Perception +5
*Expertise +Reliable feature, minimum is 10+bonus

I thought it might be fun to try and grapple the 20th level Barbarian. The Barbarian has a +13 to Athletics, and if his roll results in less than a 24 then it is 24. Stabby here has a +17 and a die minimum of 10, so a bottom of 27. Toss in an Enlarge spell and he has advantage on Strength checks to match the Barbarian's rage advantage. Once grappling, cast Blade Ward each action to get resistance from attacks (the damage reduction will keep us in the fight longer and make it easy to pass any Concentration saves, made with advantage thanks to War Caster), and attack with a short sword on the bonus action thanks to Eldritch Knight. Grappler's advantage on attacks will trigger Sneak Attack (6d6). Defensive Duelist will be used to try and make one hit per turn miss. Uncanny Dodge will halve the damage in the event of a critical hit (unless I've already used my reaction). This approach is a grinding fight.

Now, in the event of bad luck, we have backup plans. Longstrider cast before the battle, (or at the beginning, whatever) plus Cunning Action allows us to move 70 feet a turn and turn this into a battle of cantrip plinking (Ray of Frost) and a casting of Rope Trick. This is, however, a clever ruse! We goad the Barbarian into stowing his greataxe in order to throw weapons at us, and then we step within 30 feet and we steals it with an unseen Mage Hand and Sleight of Hand! We stash the axe in the extradimensional space, then use the Hand to pull the rope out of reach. We proceed to rob the Barbarian blind, depositing his weapons in our invisible hole. This approach is very demeaning.

[SharkForce]

It carries a degree of risk, i.e. the Barbarian passing his Saving Throw, small though that chance may be; if you wanted to go down that route, I'd pump Int to 20 for a DC of 19, so he only passes on a natural 20. You're still limited to melee for the auto-crit, if you want it and if you're in melee range, he can hit you back if/when he saves.
You don't have to go melee, though; stay at range on the off-chance of a successful save, sneak attack every turn (halved damage for Rage) and you'll get there. If the Barbarian takes Resilient (Wis) as his optional Feat, though, the chances of this succeeding drop dramatically from 1-in-20 to a 1-in-4 chance of passing.

[snip]

easier to just hide to up the effective DC. arcane tricksters give disadvantage on saves when they're hiding.

[Ralanr]

What's the scenario? What race?

Also since this is a level 20 barbarian he has a chance to ignore death with a con save. If he has 24 con then that's a +13 to con saves.

They can choose to not act surprised but have to enter rage first. They only lose rage by running out of time at this point. Take 24 on all strength checks if they maxed strength. Have advantage on dex saves from magic they can see.

Plus they might have a few feats. Like Res wisdom and shield master.

Edit: I skimmed. I'll probably post a barbarian build later for fun.

[Mara]

He probably goes first (adv on initiative) rages and grabs you (at plus 13 with advantage getting no less than a 24 on each roll). On his next Attack he uses the disarm action to grab your arcane focus off you, or to poke his fingers in your eyes blinding you.improvised weapon (arcane focus). Arcane bond arcane focus. Teleport to hand as bonus action.

I would argue that after a shocking grasp, he has to let you go. (Maybe...)

Either way the grapple lowers him to single weapon damage and no GWM, while I'm still at full damage. Perfect! If he doesn't grapple then I kite.

[MadBear]

well a smiting vengeance Paladin with GWM & Polearm feats will get 2 attacks with advantage that deal 1d10(weapon)+5(strength)+1d8(class feature)+2d8-5d8(smite) on turn 1, and 3 attacks after. That's 21.5-37.5 damager per swing (which due to resitance will end up being 10-19 damage per swing. More if they didn't go bear totem since smite is radiant damage). Of course you could also cast haste on yourself, which might be worth it (depends on the particular characters CON save is).

Sure you'd blow through all your smites rather quickly, but that's what a Paladin does.

[Alikat]

there will be a single Rogue turn every minute in which his Rage is not functioning (i.e. no resistance to damage). .

I don't know where this is coming from. As far as I know nothing prevents him from using a bonus action to restart rage while still raging. My barbarian is only level 10 though and combats usually over before I need to refresh it so hasn't come up.

[Paeleus]

A friend and I have actually done a PC vs. PC battle for... purposes. He with his ultimate Rage Warrior (a barbarian practically identical to yours save better stats) and me with my favorite little MC (The Arcane Knight -Battlemaster11/Wildmage9).

The deciding factor, something that has been mentioned numerous times in this thread, was the Hold Person spell. I suggest Quickening it for two reasons: in case it fails you have a chance to get away and the barbarian only gets one save before you have the option to hit him. The automatic crit damage rolls help overcome that pesky rage resistance as well.

It took me a couple turns to remember that Greenflame Blade makes your weapon do fire damage. :)

No mo' barbarian.

[Kane0]

Waiting on someone to suggest variant ranger + assassin + fighter for a ridiculous opening round nova.

VRanger 1 / Assassin 3 / EK 12 / Paladin 4
Casting level 6, 3rd level spell slots.

Start with Invisibility and stealth to hopefully start with surprise
Surprise round: 3 autocrit smites. Barbarian will probably stop this with his class feature, forcing him to rage on his turn.
Round 0 (Ambuscade): 3 autocrit smites, Action surge for another 3 autocrit smites. This is the best time to lay all the damage in, since he hasn't started his rage yet even though he has to on his turn by ignoring the surprise round.
Round 1: You might get lucky and beat him on initiative, probably not though. Barbarian rages and will either grapple or maul you, you either finish him off if he is on low enough HP after your nova or cast haste with a bonus action smite attack from war caster, using shields if you have the spell slots left to avoid losing concentration. Enlarge is also an option to avoid grappling better, and you can bring back your weapon if disarmed with a bonus action.

In fact, vranger 1 / Assassin 3 / Fighter 2 / Paladin 14 might end up a better option for more smites at the cost of less attacks. If you can stun him with a smite or hold you can lay into him even more, and venegeance paladin can get advantage on attacks plus hunters mark. As long as you get enough damage in before rage goes up you have a good chance of outlasting him with smites for damage and lay on hands to top yourself up. Grapples would be bad for you, so avoid that if possible with expertise in althetics and enlarge (if you have access to it, AFB atm).

[JellyPooga]

I don't know where this is coming from. As far as I know nothing prevents him from using a bonus action to restart rage while still raging. My barbarian is only level 10 though and combats usually over before I need to refresh it so hasn't come up.

Barbarian (arguably) wins initiative

Round 1: Barbarian enters rage, Rogue casts Invisibility
Round 10: Barbarian Rage ends at end of round, Rogue Readies action to shoot at start of next round.
Round 11: Rogue ready action triggers, Barbarian uses Bonus Action to restart Rage. Rogue Casts Invisibility.

Rinse and repeat.

[Xetheral]

Barbarian (arguably) wins initiative

Round 1: Barbarian enters rage, Rogue casts Invisibility
Round 10: Barbarian Rage ends at end of round, Rogue Readies action to shoot at start of next round.
Round 11: Rogue ready action triggers, Barbarian uses Bonus Action to restart Rage. Rogue Casts Invisibility.

Rinse and repeat.

The Barbarian can attack the visible rogue on Round 11, yes? With both a readied attack and on their normal action? Sure it's only a ranged weapon attack, but the Barbarian is dishing out two three for every one the rogue unleashes, and almost certainly has more HP.

[Vogonjeltz]

Hrm, offhand I'd say, 2 levels of Rogue for a free disengage/dash + mobile on anything with a base speed of 30 feet. The Barbarian would never be able to both close distance 'and' make a melee attack and the Rogue's speed would, effectively, be 80 feet, enough to do whatever they wanted.

Wood Elf Hunter with Colossus Slayer, Multiattack Defense, Uncanny Dodge, picks up Mobile and Skulker. If in melee, attack and move to a lightly obscured area for a bonus action hide, then stealth to some other obscured area. Skulker let's the Hunter attack without being located and rehide. The Barbarian probably won't ever find the Hunter as their wisdom (perception) score will always auto-fail against the Hunter's minimum dexterity (hide) check (9 vs 12)

Fighter using a polearm with Mobile, Sentinel, and Polearm Mastery can just prevent the Barbarian from ever getting inside their reach because of the sentinel perk and can always get away. Alternatively using Mobile + a ranged weapon and action surge to put distance between them. Battlemaster's can use menacing attack to prevent the Barbarian from closing distance (targets wisdom, a terrible save for the Barbarian). EK could employ Confusion (or similar spells) to target the Barbarian's weakness (wisdom saves) and effectively denying the Barbarian a turn.

Monk with Mobile can perform hit and run maneuvers.

Paladin probably wants Warcaster and Defense fighting style; Wrathful Smite is probably the best option as the Barbarian won't be able to beat the check except on a natural 20, and so won't be able to close distance with the Paladin (paladin proceeds to pull out ranged weapon and shoot Barbarian to death). This works for all Oaths.

Rogue of course can kite all day and all night. Poison use is probably a good idea on the Assassin.


He probably goes first (adv on initiative) rages and grabs you (at plus 13 with advantage getting no less than a 24 on each roll). On his next Attack he uses the disarm action to grab your arcane focus off you, or to poke his fingers in your eyes blinding you.

EK can just action surge to teleport 30 feet away, move another 30 feet away (now 60 feet distant) use the extra action from action surge to move another 30 feet (now 90 feet and outside the Barbarian's maximum dash range of 80 feet) and cast something like longstrider, which doesn't require concentration to match movement speeds for an hour (assuming they don't also have mobile, in which case they now exceed and can easily kite the Barbarian using cantrips to finish him off).


I was thinking an Arcane Trickster could just cast Hold Person on him, which would have Wis DC 14 against the barbarian's -1.

Since the barbarian is paralysed, all attacks against him has advantage and all attacks made within 5ft are automatic crits.

Hold Person is pretty fantastic in this matchup. And the DC can bet set to 19 by having a maximized casting stat, which is effectively a DC of 20 against the Barbarian's wisdom save, such that they only get free if they roll a 20. It can also be cast (up to 6 times) by an elements monk, four times by an EK, or 8 times by a vengeance paladin. (4 times by an Arcane Trickster).

Speaking of spell solutions, a Ranger could probably use Water Walk and then proceed onto a lake, effectively neutralizing the Barbarian's offense.

[Alikat]

Barbarian (arguably) wins initiative

Round 1: Barbarian enters rage, Rogue casts Invisibility
Round 10: Barbarian Rage ends at end of round, Rogue Readies action to shoot at start of next round.
Round 11: Rogue ready action triggers, Barbarian uses Bonus Action to restart Rage. Rogue Casts Invisibility.

Rinse and repeat.

Do the rules say you have to wait for rage to end to use it again?

If I was waiting for an invisible opponent to show themselves, and had unlimited rages my bonus action every turn would be: enters rage.

[JellyPooga]

The Barbarian can attack the visible rogue on Round 11, yes? With both a readied attack and on their normal action? Sure it's only a ranged weapon attack, but the Barbarian is dishing out two three for every one the rogue unleashes, and almost certainly has more HP.

It's time I put some stats to my hypothetical Rogue, I guess...

Race: Variant Human (why not?)
Class: Rogue (Arcane Trickster)

(0)Str: 8
(9)Dex: 15+1 (racial) +2 (lvl.4) +2 (lvl.8) = 20
(5)Con: 13+1 (Resilient) = 14
(4)Int: 12
(5)Wis: 13+1 (racial) = 14
(4)Cha: 12

Feats/ASI's
Human: Lucky (why not?)
Lvl.4: +2 Dex
Lvl.8: +2 Dex
Lvl.10: Resilient (Con)
Lvl.12: Sharpshooter
Lvl.16: Mobile
Lvl.19: Alert

Initiative: +10 (+5 Dex +5 Alert)
HP: 8+(19x5)+40 = 143
Speed: 40ft (ignores difficult terrain on Dash)

Attack: Light Crossbow +11 ranged (320ft), 1d8+5 piercing (+10d6 Sneak Attack)
OR Light Crossbow +6 ranged (320ft), 1d8+15 piercing (+10d6 Sneak Attack)

(Relevant) Spells Known: Lvl.2 - Invisibility, Lvl.4 - Greater Invisibility
(Other handy) Spells Known: Lvl.1 - Shield, Lvl.2 - Mirror Image

AC: 17(22) =12 (Studded Leather) + 5 Dex (+5 Shield)

Expertise Skills: Stealth +17, Insight +14

So...

- Rogue wins Initiative (+10 beats +3 w.Advantage)
Round 1: Rogue casts Invisibility and uses Cunning Action to Hide, Barbarian scratches his head and probably Rages as a precaution.
...
Round 10: Rogue readies action to shoot when Barbarian Rage ends, Barbarian readies action to shoot when Rogue appears. Barbarian Rage ends. Rogue shoots from 320ft away with Advantage (Invisible). Barbarian returns fire with Disadvantage (Range)

Assuming both hit, no crits;
Rogue HP: 143-(1d8+3) = 143-7 = 136
Barbarian HP: 285-(1d8+5+10d6) = 285-44 = 241

Round 11: Rogue casts Invisibility and uses Cunning Action to Hide, Barbarian scratches his head and probably Rages as a precaution...

[Round 20] Barbarian HP:241-44 = 197 Rogue HP: 136-7 = 129
[Round 30] Barbarian HP:-44 = 153 Rogue HP: -7 = 122
[Round 40] Barbarian HP:-44 = 109 Rogue HP: -7 = 115
[Round 50] Barbarian HP:-44 = 65 Rogue HP: -7 = 108
[Round 60] Barbarian HP:-44 = 21 Rogue HP: -7 = 101

Rogue now out of 2nd and 3rd level spell slots.

[Round 61] Rogue casts Greater Invisibility
[Round 62]Rogue Attacks for (average) 22 damage after Resistance accounted for. Barbarian returns fire with Readied Action for (average) 7 damage.
Barbarian HP: 21-22 = 0 (Relentless Endurance Saves!) = 1hp
Rogue HP: 101-7 = 94

[Round 63] Rogue attacks again for 22 damage;
Barbarian HP: 1-22=0. Relentless Rage (DC:10).
Rogue HP: 94-7 = 87
[Round 64]Barbarian HP:Relentless Rage (DC:15), Rogue HP: -7 = 80
[Round 65]Barbarian HP:Relentless Rage (DC:20), Rogue HP: -7 = 74
[Round 66]Barbarian HP:Relentless Rage (DC:25), Rogue HP: -7 = 67
[Round 67]Barbarian HP:Relentless Rage (DC:30), Rogue HP: -7 = 60
[Round 68]Barbarian HP:Relentless Rage (DC:35) Cannot Pass, Barbarian Dies, Rogue HP: 60

I guess the Rogue could go with Greater Invisibility from the start and then resort to Invisibility, but why waste the big guns when some decent damage rolls could end the fight before having to break them out?

The Barbarian could also use a Heavy Crossbow for an extra 12 average damage over the course of this exchange, but it still won't kill the Rogue before the Rogue kills the Barbarian.

The Rogue isn't using the -5/+10 option from Sharpshooter in this either. He probably could and end it quicker, but why risk the miss?

I'll admit, the Rogue takes more damage than I initially anticipated, but it's not even close to a fair fight. With a greater focus on spellcasting Hold Person is, odds on, probably a safer bet. I'm wary of having to get so close (spell range: 60ft) to the Barbarian to make that work though; on the off chance the Barbarian makes his save, he can probably lock down the Rogue and kill him in a couple of turns. Going the Invisible Sniper route doesn't carry the same risk.


Do the rules say you have to wait for rage to end to use it again?

If I was waiting for an invisible opponent to show themselves, and had unlimited rages my bonus action every turn would be: enters rage.

Interesting point. It pretty much kills my Invisible Sniper idea if it flies.


On your turn, you can enter a rage as a bonus action.

Arguably, if you're already in a rage, you cannot enter one as you already are in one. As a simile; you can't enter a room you're already in without leaving it first.

Not sure how much water that argument holds though!

[Ardantis]

This is why DnD is a cooperative game. I want that barbarian on my side.

That said, a 20th level Barbarian is death for a lot of builds.

[JellyPooga]

This is why DnD is a cooperative game. I want that barbarian on my side.

That said, a 20th level Barbarian is death for a lot of builds.

A 20th level anything (except maybe for over-multiclassed spellcasters) is death for a lot of builds. :smallwink:

[Ralanr]

Barbarian (arguably) wins initiative

Round 1: Barbarian enters rage, Rogue casts Invisibility
Round 10: Barbarian Rage ends at end of round, Rogue Readies action to shoot at start of next round.
Round 11: Rogue ready action triggers, Barbarian uses Bonus Action to restart Rage. Rogue Casts Invisibility.

Rinse and repeat.

Barbarian uses ready action to grabble the rogue as soon as he gets attacked.

[JellyPooga]

Barbarian uses ready action to grabble the rogue as soon as he gets attacked.

What makes you think the Rogue is anywhere near the Barbarian? The Rogue is a fool if he goes anywhere near melee range.

[SharkForce]

Barbarian uses ready action to grabble the rogue as soon as he gets attacked.

you can ready that, but you can't ready that *and* a move. since the rogue is shooting, there is no particular reason for the rogue to ever get remotely close enough for you to grapple.

[Ralanr]

What makes you think the Rogue is anywhere near the Barbarian? The Rogue is a fool if he goes anywhere near melee range.


you can ready that, but you can't ready that *and* a move. since the rogue is shooting, there is no particular reason for the rogue to ever get remotely close enough for you to grapple.

1. 40 foot movement speed
2. Unless the rogue has the sniper feat then they have a limited range. Considering their weapon proficiency they have one weapon with a 30 range and two with 80. This is without gaining disadvantage from firing beyond 80 to a max of 320 feet.
3. Because it's probably two of them fighting I don't see why he can't use the ready action to charge right at the rogue in the direction fired instead and then use his action to smash the rogue since the rogue would not be able to become invisible after attacking.
4. Barbarian has javalins. So he's not completely melee. If rogue has unlimited arrows then he can have unlimited javalins.
5. How is the rogue getting advantage?
6. The barbarian has the option of running out of your range.

Edit: Let's assume he's using his shield and sword while also having the shield master feat. If we allow feats.

[JellyPooga]

1. 40 foot movement speed

Cunning Action: Dash + Mobile Feat

Rogue has 80ft Move speed


2. Unless the rogue has the sniper feat then they have a limited range.

Sharpshooter Feat. Rogue has 320ft range with Light Crossbow. No Disadvantage for long range.


3. Because it's probably two of them fighting I don't see why he can't use the ready action to charge right at the rogue in the direction fired instead and then use his action to smash the rogue since the rogue would not be able to become invisible after attacking.

Barbarian charges 80ft if he has the Charger Feat (the one in the OP doesn't). The Rogue is anything up to 320ft away.


4. Barbarian has javalins. So he's not completely melee. If rogue has unlimited arrows then he can have unlimited javalins

Javelin has a max range of 60ft. If the Rogue is anything under 100ft from the Barbarian at any time, he's doing something wrong.


5. How is the rogue getting advantage?

He's Invisible


6. The barbarian has the option of running out of your range.

No. He doesn't.


Edit: Let's assume he's using his shield and sword while also having the shield master feat. If we allow feats.

Shield Master does the Barbarian no favours. He can't even get into melee range, let alone knock the Rogue down. He gets +2 AC for the Shield, which helps his defence, but in no way does this improve his ability to kill the Rogue.

[Human Paragon 3]

Dex-based Vengeance Paladin using Haste shared with his Steed and sharp shooter feat. Barbarian would never get close enough to attack since the horse can move 360 feet per round and your bow has a 600 foot range.

[Human Paragon 3]

Eldritch Knight with Fly and a long bow.

[Cakesnizzles]

If the area is big, anything with mobility will destroy the barbarian. If it's a small room, the only thing that has a chance is a paladin or a well built fighter.

[Malifice]

Barbarian (arguably) wins initiative

Round 1: Barbarian enters rage, Rogue casts Invisibility
Round 10: Barbarian Rage ends at end of round, Rogue Readies action to shoot at start of next round.
Round 11: Rogue ready action triggers, Barbarian uses Bonus Action to restart Rage. Rogue Casts Invisibility.

Rinse and repeat.

If you want to be technical, the barbarian can deal 1 point of damage to himself a turn.

[JellyPooga]

If you want to be technical, the barbarian can deal 1 point of damage to himself a turn.

Rage still only lasts 1 minute. It ends early if you fall unconscious or choose it to (lvl.15: Persistent Rage), but it still has a 1 minute time limit. The question of activating a new Rage before that minute expires has been raised, though.

[Ralanr]

explanations

Doesn't he lose invisibility after he attacks? And doesn't he have about 3 3rd level spell slots?

Other than that, thank you for the explanation.

[JellyPooga]

Doesn't he lose invisibility after he attacks? And doesn't he have about 3 3rd level spell slots?

Other than that, thank you for the explanation.

Invisibility is a 2nd level spell. Lvl.20 Arcane Trickster has 3 2nd level slots and 3 3rd level slots. He can cast Invisibility 6 times (three with 2nd level slots and three with 3rd level slots). Greater Invisibility is a 4th level spell which he can cast once.

Invisibility (2nd level spell) expires if he attacks, but he still gains Advantage on the attack for being invisible. Greater Invisibility (4th level spell) doesn't expire when you attack but has a dramatically lower duration of 1 minute compared to the 1 hour of Invisibility.

[Ralanr]

Invisibility is a 2nd level spell. Lvl.20 Arcane Trickster has 3 2nd level slots and 3 3rd level slots. He can cast Invisibility 6 times (three with 2nd level slots and three with 3rd level slots). Greater Invisibility is a 4th level spell which he can cast once.

Invisibility (2nd level spell) expires if he attacks, but he still gains Advantage on the attack for being invisible. Greater Invisibility (4th level spell) doesn't expire when you attack but has a dramatically lower duration of 1 minute compared to the 1 hour of Invisibility.

So...you need to kill the barbarian in 7 minutes.

Wouldn't he just take the dodge action when out of rage?

[Mara]

-_-

It seems the best strategy is kiting. Because getting near the barbarian means a likely death.

That's boring. If we assume they start off and must stay within 5ft of each other (small room). Who can compete?

[JoeJ]

Rogue 2/Champion Fighter 18. Rogue gives cunning action, which the fighter uses to dash and stay away from the barbarian. Archery fighting style plus sharpshooter feat with Dexterity 20 and a longbow means he can stay up to 600' away and still rain down three attacks per round at +8 to hit/1d8+15 damage, with a critical on 18-20.

Edit: Add Magic Initiate feat also, and the Fighter can cast Longstrider to increase his base speed to 40' for 1 hour.

[Longcat]

It's funny how all challengers in the martial mortal combat are Gishes of some kind. I feel like permanently invisible Rogues break the spirit of the challenge.

[JoeJ]

It's funny how all challengers in the martial mortal combat are Gishes of some kind. I feel like permanently invisible Rogues break the spirit of the challenge.

The majority of characters are gishes of some sort. Absolutely no magic and absolutely nothing but magic are the extremes.

[JoeJ]

It's funny how all challengers in the martial mortal combat are Gishes of some kind. I feel like permanently invisible Rogues break the spirit of the challenge.

Okay, my previously described Rogue 2/Champion 18 can move 60' per round and still attack. If the barbarian dashes every round he can move 80', so from 600 feet away it will take him 30 rounds to get into melee range. That's 90 attacks with a longbow and an expected 850 points of damage against AC 20. Even with resistance, the barbarian takes 425 points of damage. The fighter took no damage, and never used his Action Surge. And to head off the obvious objection, 90 arrows weigh 4 1/2 pounds.

Now in an enclosed area, or if the pair started close together, something different would obviously be required.

[Malifice]

It's time I put some stats to my hypothetical Rogue, I guess...

Race: Variant Human (why not?)
Class: Rogue (Arcane Trickster)

(0)Str: 8
(9)Dex: 15+1 (racial) +2 (lvl.4) +2 (lvl.8) = 20
(5)Con: 13+1 (Resilient) = 14
(4)Int: 12
(5)Wis: 13+1 (racial) = 14
(4)Cha: 12

Feats/ASI's
Human: Lucky (why not?)
Lvl.4: +2 Dex
Lvl.8: +2 Dex
Lvl.10: Resilient (Con)
Lvl.12: Sharpshooter
Lvl.16: Mobile
Lvl.19: Alert

Initiative: +10 (+5 Dex +5 Alert)
HP: 8+(19x5)+40 = 143
Speed: 40ft (ignores difficult terrain on Dash)

Attack: Light Crossbow +11 ranged (320ft), 1d8+5 piercing (+10d6 Sneak Attack)
OR Light Crossbow +6 ranged (320ft), 1d8+15 piercing (+10d6 Sneak Attack)

(Relevant) Spells Known: Lvl.2 - Invisibility, Lvl.4 - Greater Invisibility
(Other handy) Spells Known: Lvl.1 - Shield, Lvl.2 - Mirror Image

AC: 17(22) =12 (Studded Leather) + 5 Dex (+5 Shield)

Expertise Skills: Stealth +17, Insight +14

So...

- Rogue wins Initiative (+10 beats +3 w.Advantage)
Round 1: Rogue casts Invisibility and uses Cunning Action to Hide, Barbarian scratches his head and probably Rages as a precaution.
...
Round 10: Rogue readies action to shoot when Barbarian Rage ends, Barbarian readies action to shoot when Rogue appears. Barbarian Rage ends. Rogue shoots from 320ft away with Advantage (Invisible). Barbarian returns fire with Disadvantage (Range)

Assuming both hit, no crits;
Rogue HP: 143-(1d8+3) = 143-7 = 136
Barbarian HP: 285-(1d8+5+10d6) = 285-44 = 241

Round 11: Rogue casts Invisibility and uses Cunning Action to Hide, Barbarian scratches his head and probably Rages as a precaution...

[Round 20] Barbarian HP:241-44 = 197 Rogue HP: 136-7 = 129
[Round 30] Barbarian HP:-44 = 153 Rogue HP: -7 = 122
[Round 40] Barbarian HP:-44 = 109 Rogue HP: -7 = 115
[Round 50] Barbarian HP:-44 = 65 Rogue HP: -7 = 108
[Round 60] Barbarian HP:-44 = 21 Rogue HP: -7 = 101

Rogue now out of 2nd and 3rd level spell slots.

[Round 61] Rogue casts Greater Invisibility
[Round 62]Rogue Attacks for (average) 22 damage after Resistance accounted for. Barbarian returns fire with Readied Action for (average) 7 damage.
Barbarian HP: 21-22 = 0 (Relentless Endurance Saves!) = 1hp
Rogue HP: 101-7 = 94

[Round 63] Rogue attacks again for 22 damage;
Barbarian HP: 1-22=0. Relentless Rage (DC:10).
Rogue HP: 94-7 = 87
[Round 64]Barbarian HP:Relentless Rage (DC:15), Rogue HP: -7 = 80
[Round 65]Barbarian HP:Relentless Rage (DC:20), Rogue HP: -7 = 74
[Round 66]Barbarian HP:Relentless Rage (DC:25), Rogue HP: -7 = 67
[Round 67]Barbarian HP:Relentless Rage (DC:30), Rogue HP: -7 = 60
[Round 68]Barbarian HP:Relentless Rage (DC:35) Cannot Pass, Barbarian Dies, Rogue HP: 60

I guess the Rogue could go with Greater Invisibility from the start and then resort to Invisibility, but why waste the big guns when some decent damage rolls could end the fight before having to break them out?

The Barbarian could also use a Heavy Crossbow for an extra 12 average damage over the course of this exchange, but it still won't kill the Rogue before the Rogue kills the Barbarian.

The Rogue isn't using the -5/+10 option from Sharpshooter in this either. He probably could and end it quicker, but why risk the miss?

I'll admit, the Rogue takes more damage than I initially anticipated, but it's not even close to a fair fight. With a greater focus on spellcasting Hold Person is, odds on, probably a safer bet. I'm wary of having to get so close (spell range: 60ft) to the Barbarian to make that work though; on the off chance the Barbarian makes his save, he can probably lock down the Rogue and kill him in a couple of turns. Going the Invisible Sniper route doesn't carry the same risk.



Interesting point. It pretty much kills my Invisible Sniper idea if it flies.



Arguably, if you're already in a rage, you cannot enter one as you already are in one. As a simile; you can't enter a room you're already in without leaving it first.

Not sure how much water that argument holds though!

Relies on cunning action to hide each round while the Barb is looking at him. Many DM's wont allow it.

Edit: Wait - invisiblity. See where I went wrong.

[Doof]

We should make the rule more interesting by calling it a mudfightHolmgang where the two contestants are biting on a 6-ft long rope (a la Cerebus style).

- you are both considered grappled at all times
- you're free to choose whatever class you want, but the moment you speak or open your mouth the rope falls off and you lose.
- you cannot go beyond the 6-ft. range of your opponent since that's as far as the rope allows
- no hiding or going invisible will work because of the string attached
- no items beyond a loincloth and a main weapon of your choice, and a backup/offhand weapon.

CATFIGHT

[SharkForce]

We should make the rule more interesting by calling it a mudfightHolmgang where the two contestants are biting on a 6-ft long rope (a la Cerebus style).

- you are both considered grappled at all times
- you're free to choose whatever class you want, but the moment you speak or open your mouth the rope falls off and you lose.
- you cannot go beyond the 6-ft. range of your opponent since that's as far as the rope allows
- no hiding or going invisible will work because of the string attached
- no items beyond a loincloth and a main weapon of your choice, and a backup/offhand weapon.

CATFIGHT

rogue uses expertise in sleight of hand to steal the rope out of the barbarian's mouth. rogue wins :P

[Doof]

rogue uses expertise in sleight of hand to steal the rope out of the barbarian's mouth. rogue wins :P

if that 20th-level rogue took expertise in Sleight of Hand, then I think I'd be happy to let him win at least once in his life.

I kid, I kid.

[Kane0]

Player: "I reach forward to sneakily steal the rope from the half-orc barbarians mouth. Sleight of hand..."
*d20: 1*
"...but instead find myself gently touching his cheek. Damn."
DM: "He goes to grapple you, intent on crushing your windpipe for such an act..."
*d20: 1*
"...well then..."

[Mara]

Player: "I reach forward to sneakily steal the rope from the half-orc barbarians mouth. Sleight of hand..."
*d20: 1*
"...but instead find myself gently touching his cheek. Damn."
DM: "He goes to grapple you, intent on crushing your windpipe for such an act..."
*d20: 1*
"...well then..."

Ah yes the nat 1 romance. If the gamers ever make a romantic comedy...

[Kane0]

To be fair, this barbarian is built for bear hugs.

Or a bear built for hugs, however you want to phase it

[djreynolds]

I'm curious to see how effective wolf totem is at 14th level with the automatic shove, defensive duelist could help.

I really love the discussion. IMO, to actually exchange blows with the barbarian would definitely require the viper vs the mountain. And most builds would greatly appreciate a 2 level dip in rogue, cunning action is just that good as is expertise. And defensive duelist can really shine in damage mitigation.

DPR is a fantastic tool, but versus a barbarian, it definitely attrition. The barbarian DPR reminds me of the weapon master's of 3.5 ability to end a fight in a round or two.

What happened to combat expertise and improved combat expertise? Athletics helps out when in the supine position

Obviously the barbarian's chassis could change to have more wisdom to add perception, but hit-n-run seems to be the tactic to defeat him, or a wizard or a large elephant mount.

And this is just SPBI, what if the barbarian was blessed by the dice gods and had pole arm master and sentinel, nasty.

[SharkForce]

Player: "I reach forward to sneakily steal the rope from the half-orc barbarians mouth. Sleight of hand..."
*d20: 1*
"...but instead find myself gently touching his cheek. Damn."
DM: "He goes to grapple you, intent on crushing your windpipe for such an act..."
*d20: 1*
"...well then..."

unfortunately the rogue never rolls less than 10 on a proficient check, and the barbarian never rolls lower than his strength score on a strength check while raging iirc. totally ruins the whole thing :P

[Xetheral]

Rage still only lasts 1 minute. It ends early if you fall unconscious or choose it to (lvl.15: Persistent Rage), but it still has a 1 minute time limit. The question of activating a new Rage before that minute expires has been raised, though.

Since the Barbarian can choose for his Rage to end early as a bonus action, then he has no reason not to end it at random intervals. Sure, it's down for a round until he can take another bonus action to Rage again, but from 200' away the rogue would be hard pressed to have any idea when Rage is down. A generous DM might permit a Wisdom (Perception) check, but you can't count on it.

[djreynolds]

I wonder if Mr Kryx has a spreadsheet on how effective survivor is, and when couple with defensive duelist vs a barbarian swinging away.

[djreynolds]

Player: "I reach forward to sneakily steal the rope from the half-orc barbarians mouth. Sleight of hand..."
*d20: 1*
"...but instead find myself gently touching his cheek. Damn."
DM: "He goes to grapple you, intent on crushing your windpipe for such an act..."
*d20: 1*
"...well then..."

I knew I should've stated no dating or spooning, always one wise guy. But very funny indeed as is the bear hug comment. Humor is a must.

[djreynolds]

Stabnacious Bloodgulper
Arcane Trickster 12/Eldritch Knight 8
Mountain Dwarf Outlander

Str:17>20
Dex:13
Con:17>18
Int:12>14
Wis:8
Cha:8

ASI (Strength), ASI (Intelligence), ASI (Str + Con), Grappler, War Caster, Defensive Duelist, Tough

HP: 232
AC: 19 (Full Plate, Defense style)
Saves: Str +11, Con +10, Dex +1, Int +2, Wis -1, Cha -1

Skills+: Athletics +17*, Sleight of Hand +13*, Intimidate +11*, Survival +11*, Perception +5
*Expertise +Reliable feature, minimum is 10+bonus

I thought it might be fun to try and grapple the 20th level Barbarian. The Barbarian has a +13 to Athletics, and if his roll results in less than a 24 then it is 24. Stabby here has a +17 and a die minimum of 10, so a bottom of 27. Toss in an Enlarge spell and he has advantage on Strength checks to match the Barbarian's rage advantage. Once grappling, cast Blade Ward each action to get resistance from attacks (the damage reduction will keep us in the fight longer and make it easy to pass any Concentration saves, made with advantage thanks to War Caster), and attack with a short sword on the bonus action thanks to Eldritch Knight. Grappler's advantage on attacks will trigger Sneak Attack (6d6). Defensive Duelist will be used to try and make one hit per turn miss. Uncanny Dodge will halve the damage in the event of a critical hit (unless I've already used my reaction). This approach is a grinding fight.

Now, in the event of bad luck, we have backup plans. Longstrider cast before the battle, (or at the beginning, whatever) plus Cunning Action allows us to move 70 feet a turn and turn this into a battle of cantrip plinking (Ray of Frost) and a casting of Rope Trick. This is, however, a clever ruse! We goad the Barbarian into stowing his greataxe in order to throw weapons at us, and then we step within 30 feet and we steals it with an unseen Mage Hand and Sleight of Hand! We stash the axe in the extradimensional space, then use the Hand to pull the rope out of reach. We proceed to rob the Barbarian blind, depositing his weapons in our invisible hole. This approach is very demeaning.

Very Cool Build

[Doof]

unfortunately the rogue never rolls less than 10 on a proficient check, and the barbarian never rolls lower than his strength score on a strength check while raging iirc. totally ruins the whole thing :P

Unless all parties involved think it's absolutely hilarious and let it slide!

[JellyPooga]

Since the Barbarian can choose for his Rage to end early as a bonus action, then he has no reason not to end it at random intervals. Sure, it's down for a round until he can take another bonus action to Rage again, but from 200' away the rogue would be hard pressed to have any idea when Rage is down. A generous DM might permit a Wisdom (Perception) check, but you can't count on it.

I did mention that my Rogue has Expertise in Insight to detect just such an occurrence...minimum result of 24 on the build I posted; I'm fairly sure that's sufficient to pass any static DC or check the Barbarian cares to throw at him!

[Ralanr]

unfortunately the rogue never rolls less than 10 on a proficient check, and the barbarian never rolls lower than his strength score on a strength check while raging iirc. totally ruins the whole thing :P

Parties are where you shine.

:smalltongue:

[Xetheral]

I did mention that my Rogue has Expertise in Insight to detect just such an occurrence...minimum result of 24 on the build I posted; I'm fairly sure that's sufficient to pass any static DC or check the Barbarian cares to throw at him!

From 200+ feet away I wouldn't permit a check at all, and I doubt most DMs would either. One's only supposed to call for a check if there is doubt about whether a character could succeed or fail. Reading body language at 200 feet? I don't think it matters how good you are at Insight: you simply can't see him well enough to resolve any detail. A generous DM might allow it, but that's pretty shaky ground.

[MadBear]

From 200+ feet away I wouldn't permit a check at all, and I doubt most DMs would either. One's only supposed to call for a check if there is doubt about whether a character could succeed or fail. Reading body language at 200 feet? I don't think it matters how good you are at Insight: you simply can't see him well enough to resolve any detail. A generous DM might allow it, but that's pretty shaky ground.

I don't know. At 200 ft that's not even a full football field away (66 yard's isn't that far). While definitely not easy, I don't think its unreasonable that a person could read someone's body language from that far away. Granted a DC 25-30 check should be in order for that distance.

(Then again, you might call me a generous DM, it's just that I don't think allowing a check from 2/3's of a football field away is beyond someone's capability)-

[SharkForce]

I don't know. At 200 ft that's not even a full football field away (66 yard's isn't that far). While definitely not easy, I don't think its unreasonable that a person could read someone's body language from that far away. Granted a DC 25-30 check should be in order for that distance.

(Then again, you might call me a generous DM, it's just that I don't think allowing a check from 2/3's of a football field away is beyond someone's capability)-

particularly when that someone is capable of hitting "nearly impossible" skill check DCs in the first place...

[Xetheral]

I don't know. At 200 ft that's not even a full football field away (66 yard's isn't that far). While definitely not easy, I don't think its unreasonable that a person could read someone's body language from that far away. Granted a DC 25-30 check should be in order for that distance.

(Then again, you might call me a generous DM, it's just that I don't think allowing a check from 2/3's of a football field away is beyond someone's capability)-

For reference, at 200' a 6-foot-tall character can be visually observed with the same degree of detail you'd get observing a 1.8-inch-tall character at 5' away.


particularly when that someone is capable of hitting "nearly impossible" skill check DCs in the first place...

Whether or not I let someone roll doesn't relate to how good they are with the skill--an impossible task remains impossible. Although I'm willing to accept that on this point there is plenty of room for disagreement as to whether it's actually impossible to merely nearly impossible.

[Kane0]

Whether or not I let someone roll doesn't relate to how good they are with the skill--an impossible task remains impossible. Although I'm willing to accept that on this point there is plenty of room for disagreement as to whether it's actually impossible to merely nearly impossible.

So would you allow a totem barbarian with eagle vision?

[Xetheral]

So would you allow a totem barbarian with eagle vision?

Oh definitely: that seems to be exactly what the eagle vision totem is for.

[JellyPooga]

From 200+ feet away I wouldn't permit a check at all, and I doubt most DMs would either. One's only supposed to call for a check if there is doubt about whether a character could succeed or fail. Reading body language at 200 feet? I don't think it matters how good you are at Insight: you simply can't see him well enough to resolve any detail. A generous DM might allow it, but that's pretty shaky ground.

I'll give you that it's shaky ground, but I'd err on the other side of the coin to you and allow it.

The Rogue is doing nothing but observing the Barbarian, waiting for an opportune moment to strike, knowing that he has to take a breather at some point. He can nail a target at 100yrds with the same ease as he can at 10ft...he's that good. I'm sure he can second guess his target at the same range.

Consider; on a sports field, players regularly guess the intentions of their opponents from similar distances. They don't need to read their facial expressions; that amount of detail is not required. They only need to read body language; the way they're moving, how often they pause or in this case, possibly, slump with exhaustion at maintaining such a high level of adrenaline for an extended period.

Consider also; the Barbarian is not just standing there looking for the Rogue, he's in a heightened state of activity; he's pumped, he's agitated, he's possibly shouting and biting his shield, beating his chest and tearing his hair because he's got no target to vent his aggression on. These are all things easily observable from quite a distance. The Rogue, on the other hand, is quite calm, steady, observing, waiting for the macho bravado to quiet for just a moment and he's damned near the best person in the world at reading another persons emotional state.

Denying the Rogue, who can routinely read people that are closed books to anyone else, a chance at second guessing his target, because you consider it too far away would be on the harsh end of GMing in my book.

[Osrogue]

I'm not so sure a Monk could hit-and-run a Barbarian easily, per se. He's not quite fast enough to plain outrun him without Ki and if he's spending Ki on speed, he's not able to spend it on offensive options.

If the Barbarian gets a chance to lock the Monk down with a Grapple, the Monk is toast. The Monks save-or-die/suck effects are all physical saves (Str/Dex/Con), which the Barbarian is good at.

If the Monk gets lucky, he might put the screw on a Barbarian with hit-and-run, but he needs to be lucky. I wouldn't call it a sure win by a long stretch.

A Monk is better off going 4-elements Monk and using Hold Person to achieve the same thing an Arcane Trickster might (with less reliability; the Monk only gets 6 uses, the AT has 7).

How is a monk not outrunning a Barbarian?

[-Jynx-]

For reference, at 200' a 6-foot-tall character can be visually observed with the same degree of detail you'd get observing a 1.8-inch-tall character at 5' away.

Do keep in mind that this isn't real life. You can draw some amount of realism from RL but Dnd fantasy does allow for a degree of super human and examining someones body language is far from unreasonable from that distance. If you want to be picky most MODERN crossbows I think can only shoot at what 200ft? Even then that's max distance for a decent shot. Said rogue can do that at 320ft with a simple crossbow. So I mean....

[Alikat]

How is a monk not outrunning a Barbarian?

A lvl 5 wood elf eagle barbarian with the mobility feat can move 165 feet a round. Double dash, 35+10+10.

[Xetheral]

I'll give you that it's shaky ground, but I'd err on the other side of the coin to you and allow it.

The Rogue is doing nothing but observing the Barbarian, waiting for an opportune moment to strike, knowing that he has to take a breather at some point. He can nail a target at 100yrds with the same ease as he can at 10ft...he's that good. I'm sure he can second guess his target at the same range.

Consider; on a sports field, players regularly guess the intentions of their opponents from similar distances. They don't need to read their facial expressions; that amount of detail is not required. They only need to read body language; the way they're moving, how often they pause or in this case, possibly, slump with exhaustion at maintaining such a high level of adrenaline for an extended period.

Consider also; the Barbarian is not just standing there looking for the Rogue, he's in a heightened state of activity; he's pumped, he's agitated, he's possibly shouting and biting his shield, beating his chest and tearing his hair because he's got no target to vent his aggression on. These are all things easily observable from quite a distance. The Rogue, on the other hand, is quite calm, steady, observing, waiting for the macho bravado to quiet for just a moment and he's damned near the best person in the world at reading another persons emotional state.

Denying the Rogue, who can routinely read people that are closed books to anyone else, a chance at second guessing his target, because you consider it too far away would be on the harsh end of GMing in my book.

Reading where a moving target is going to be based on body language is one thing--trying to tell the difference between actually-in-a-Rage and just normal-angry-at-the-Rogue strikes me as hard to do even if you were 5 feet away, let alone 200. It's not like Thog turning a different shade of green: Rage is primarily a mental state, even if particular barbarians may express that state physically. Heck, I had a player of a barbarian who would regularly activate rage symbolically in social situations just as a hilarious way to roleplay, and those around her were none the wiser. If someone had cared, would I let them try to figure it out? Sure, but only if they were close enough to see telltale signs.

But maybe I am on the harsher end. *shrugs* Gauging where one is on a spectrum is hard when one DMs far more than one plays.

[Mellack]

Then just give the rogue a spyglass on a cord. He can use it to watch and then let it go as a free action.

[Mara]

Skills do things in my campaigns. That high insight rogue may be able to guess what you are thinking from 200ft away.

The barbarian is never not raging since nothing stops you from entering a rage while raging.

[Doof]

Skills do things in my campaigns. That high insight rogue may be able to guess what you are thinking from 200ft away.

The barbarian is never not raging since nothing stops you from entering a rage while raging.

So that's your secret... he's ALWAYS angry!

-Bruce Banner

[Alikat]

Skills do things in my campaigns. That high insight rogue may be able to guess what you are thinking from 200ft away.

The barbarian is never not raging since nothing stops you from entering a rage while raging.

That's how I see it too. To compare to video game logic, "14mins left on this 60minute buff? Better refresh it now while I notice."

[JellyPooga]

How is a monk not outrunning a Barbarian?

Monk can outrun a Barbarian, but can't hit-and-run whilst staying out of reach.

Monk has 60ft speed. That means he can go 30ft in, hit, then run away 30ft. That's not fast enough to get away from the Barbarian with his 40ft speed unless the Monk can reduce the Barbarians speed somehow (e.g. knock him prone), but the Monks methods of slowing the Barbarian are Str and Con Saves...both things a Barbarian is superlative at.

The Monk can double his speed using Ki and go 60-hit-60, which will do the trick, but the Monk only has 20 Ki points and probably wants to save as many of those for offensive options like Stunning Fist as he can. Once he stops spending Ki to Dash, he can get locked down by the Barbarian in a Grapple and pounded into the ground.

[PoeticDwarf]

With SPBI, can you defeat a 20th level barbarian. Its tougher than I thought it would be.

without getting your caster's involved, nor druid, wizard, cleric, bard, warlock, sorcerer

But paladins and eldritch knights are a go.
Multi-classing and feats are good
No magic weapons or armor, for now...... I'll need help with what is appropriate, my apologies
No mounts

27 point buy in
So 15,15,15,8,8,8. I'll go half-orc. +2 strength, +1 con.

17 Str
16 con
15 dex
8 chr
8 wis
8 int

4th level GWM (my feat of choice)
8th level 19 str
12th level 18 con
16th level 20 str 16 dex
20th level 20 con

that's 24,16,24,8,8,8

or whatever you want for the barbarian to leave him competitive, same with feats

Totem 3rd bear, totem 6 bear, totem 14 wolf-nothing says you can't

20 AC no armor, no shield but has one on his back
285 hit points, max hit points 1st, 7 hit points 2-20, or just max for both adversaries.
40 speed,
+6 proficiency
3 initiative
+13 great axe, +13 hand axe (2), +13 javelin (2), +13 long sword sheathed
4 brutal critical with half orc
sailor background
athletics 13, perception 5, survival 5, intimidation 5, nature 5
strength & con save 13
dex 3
int, wis, char, -1

Just for fun.

Easy game, play a 18 open hand monk - 2 wizard, even with the high con save of a barbarian, you have divonation level 2 wizard feature and if you survive some rounds you will just get the barbarian on 0hp.

[SharkForce]

Monk can outrun a Barbarian, but can't hit-and-run whilst staying out of reach.

Monk has 60ft speed. That means he can go 30ft in, hit, then run away 30ft. That's not fast enough to get away from the Barbarian with his 40ft speed unless the Monk can reduce the Barbarians speed somehow (e.g. knock him prone), but the Monks methods of slowing the Barbarian are Str and Con Saves...both things a Barbarian is superlative at.

The Monk can double his speed using Ki and go 60-hit-60, which will do the trick, but the Monk only has 20 Ki points and probably wants to save as many of those for offensive options like Stunning Fist as he can. Once he stops spending Ki to Dash, he can get locked down by the Barbarian in a Grapple and pounded into the ground.

a small assortment of ranged (or rather, thrown) weapons also happen to be monk weapons. it will take time, but is definitely possible.

[Osrogue]

Monk can outrun a Barbarian, but can't hit-and-run whilst staying out of reach.

Monk has 60ft speed. That means he can go 30ft in, hit, then run away 30ft. That's not fast enough to get away from the Barbarian with his 40ft speed unless the Monk can reduce the Barbarians speed somehow (e.g. knock him prone), but the Monks methods of slowing the Barbarian are Str and Con Saves...both things a Barbarian is superlative at.

The Monk can double his speed using Ki and go 60-hit-60, which will do the trick, but the Monk only has 20 Ki points and probably wants to save as many of those for offensive options like Stunning Fist as he can. Once he stops spending Ki to Dash, he can get locked down by the Barbarian in a Grapple and pounded into the ground.

Unless he's a shadow monk, in which case he's fine as long as they fight in dim conditions, and until then, he has the mobility advantage.

[Lolzyking]

The way I see it it doesnt matter for an open hand monk, they get first hit thanks to sanctuary and they have a small handful of ways to nearly instakill the barbarian such as the grapple suplex obtained by a 1 level dip of Druid or the obvious quivering Palm


Example suplex long strider + jump prepared, then stunning strike into a free grapple and then you jump as high as you can and drop him

If fight is on a cliff or mountain even better

[numerek]

The way I see it it doesnt matter for an open hand monk, they get first hit thanks to sanctuary and they have a small handful of ways to nearly instakill the barbarian such as the grapple suplex obtained by a 1 level dip of Druid or the obvious quivering Palm


Example suplex long strider + jump prepared, then stunning strike into a free grapple and then you jump as high as you can and drop him

If fight is on a cliff or mountain even better

he has +13 to constitution saves and you can have a max dc of 19 so he only fails on 5 or below hardly a good start to your instakill. quivering palm is also constitution save.

[MeeposFire]

I don't think stunning fist is worth it in this context. Chances of working is too low, it lasts only one round, and you have no allies to take advantage of it in this situation. Quivering palm costs more but at least if he did fail the save the fight is over and if he passes you do get some extra damage which is worth something.

[Ardantis]

Did anyone try a Frenzy Barbarian?

EDIT: It's midnight, I'm not crunching the numbers now, but I'm pretty sure with Retaliatiion a Path of the Berserker Barb would win the fight hands down. Like, HANDS down.

[Slipperychicken]

Sketchy the Wine-Tempter

-EK level 20
-Intelligence at 20.
-Prestidigitation as a known spell (casted on the Torpor poison to make it look and taste like a delicious beverage)
-Suggestion as a known spell (he can get it at 8th, 14th, or 20th level. Let's say 8th for argument's sake)
-Longstrider as a known spell (same deal as suggestion)
-Several backup component pouches in case one or more get disarmed or sundered
-A large quantity of Torpor poison (60 doses should be enough; 90 to be sure) inside one or more wine-bottles. If only one dose applies per chug, then Sketchy also takes a shot-glass with him. Torpor renders the target incapacitated for 4d6 hours, with no clause to rouse him upon receiving damage.

Assuming that Sketchy survives to act (he can use Lucky to get 2d20 for initiative, pre-buff with Mirror Image if desired, and is a level 20 fighter). he casts Suggestion (Wisdom DC 19, duration = concentration up to 8 hours): "We should take a break from all this fighting and have ourselves a drink! You should immediately stop fighting and drink all my magically-delicious torpor poison new beverage!". He crosses his fingers and hopes the barbarian doesn't nat-20 his save (if he does, then Sketchy will use Action Surge* and cast it again. He can repeat this next turn if he needs to), then watch the barbarian down enormous quantities of the poison. The barbarian will most likely roll a 1 eventually (sixty doses leaves a 95.4% chance to get at least one nat 1, ninety doses means 99.01%). Once the barbarian finally rolls his nat 1 and is incapacitated, Sketchy immediately casts Longstrider and sets to work stabbing him for 4d6 hours until the barbarian is finally defeated. If the barbarian tries to flee at 40 feet per round (incapacitation does not explicitly prevent movement, only actions, reactions [and bonus actions]), then Sketchy will easily keep up and enjoy opportunity attacks.

Chance for the barbarian to fail at least one save against Suggestion: ( 1-[5%^2 = 0.25%]) = 99.75%
Chance for the barbarian to fail at least one save against poison: ([1- .95^60]=95.4% for sixty doses. [1-.95^90]= 99.01% for ninety)
Chance for barbarian to KO or die from a full 4 hours (2400 rounds) of impetuous pummeling from a level 20 fighter: Certain

Total chance for the barbarian to KO or die: (0.9975 to fail suggestion * 0.9901 to succumb to poison) = 0.9876 = 98.76%. For sixty doses, this number is 94.76%


*Action Surge does not incur the limitation of one spell per round; that only applies if you cast a spell as a bonus action. PHB 202, and Sage Advice confirmed it.
**Drinking torpor poison does not inflict damage, and enjoying what looks and tastes like a lovely beverage is not "obviously harmful" like throwing yourself on a spear is. As such it will never shake the barbarian from his suggestion
***A creature incapacitated by torpor poison is not roused by damage or shaking. This means Sketchy may stab him with impunity once he fails a save.

[TheTeaMustFlow]

Sketchy the Wine-Tempter

-EK level 20
-Intelligence at 20.
-Prestidigitation as a known spell (casted on the Torpor poison to make it look and taste like a delicious beverage)
-Suggestion as a known spell (he can get it at 8th, 14th, or 20th level. Let's say 8th for argument's sake)
-Longstrider as a known spell (same deal as suggestion)
-Several backup component pouches in case one or more get disarmed or sundered
-A large quantity of Torpor poison (60 doses should be enough; 90 to be sure) inside one or more wine-bottles. If only one dose applies per chug, then Sketchy also takes a shot-glass with him. Torpor renders the target incapacitated for 4d6 hours, with no clause to rouse him upon receiving damage.

Assuming that Sketchy survives to act (he can use Lucky to get 2d20 for initiative, pre-buff with Mirror Image if desired, and is a level 20 fighter). he casts Suggestion (Wisdom DC 19, duration = concentration up to 8 hours): "We should take a break from all this fighting and have ourselves a drink! You should immediately stop fighting and drink all my magically-delicious torpor poison new beverage!". He crosses his fingers and hopes the barbarian doesn't nat-20 his save (if he does, then Sketchy will use Action Surge* and cast it again. He can repeat this next turn if he needs to), then watch the barbarian down enormous quantities of the poison. The barbarian will most likely roll a 1 eventually (sixty doses leaves a 95.4% chance to get at least one nat 1, ninety doses means 99.01%). Once the barbarian finally rolls his nat 1 and is incapacitated, Sketchy immediately casts Longstrider and sets to work stabbing him for 4d6 hours until the barbarian is finally defeated. If the barbarian tries to flee at 40 feet per round (incapacitation does not explicitly prevent movement, only actions, reactions [and bonus actions]), then Sketchy will easily keep up and enjoy opportunity attacks.

Chance for the barbarian to fail at least one save against Suggestion: ( 1-[5%^2 = 0.25%]) = 99.75%
Chance for the barbarian to fail at least one save against poison: ([1- .95^60]=95.4% for sixty doses. [1-.95^90]= 99.01% for ninety)
Chance for barbarian to KO or die from a full 4 hours (2400 rounds) of impetuous pummeling from a level 20 fighter: Certain

Total chance for the barbarian to KO or die: (0.9975 to fail suggestion * 0.9901 to succumb to poison) = 0.9876 = 98.76%. For sixty doses, this number is 94.76%


*Action Surge does not incur the limitation of one spell per round; that only applies if you cast a spell as a bonus action. PHB 202, and Sage Advice confirmed it.
**Drinking torpor poison does not inflict damage, and enjoying what looks and tastes like a lovely beverage is not "obviously harmful" like throwing yourself on a spear is. As such it will never shake the barbarian from his suggestion
***A creature incapacitated by torpor poison is not roused by damage or shaking. This means Sketchy may stab him with impunity once he fails a save.

That idea is much cooler and more interesting than my idea, which was:


Be an Archery-based Vengeance Paladin.
Use Avenging Angel.
Fly up out of javelin range.
Laugh.

[CNagy]

The way I see it it doesnt matter for an open hand monk, they get first hit thanks to sanctuary and they have a small handful of ways to nearly instakill the barbarian such as the grapple suplex obtained by a 1 level dip of Druid or the obvious quivering Palm


Example suplex long strider + jump prepared, then stunning strike into a free grapple and then you jump as high as you can and drop him

If fight is on a cliff or mountain even better

Assuming you can get the grapple, why drop him? Just crash straight down with him. And then jump again. And crash again. Repeat until your movement is completely used up. Your monk class feature will prevent you from taking damage, but the barbarian will take damage and when you take damage from a fall you go prone. In this case, prone and grappled. You get advantage to attack him and he gets disadvantage to attack you, or he uses his action to break free of the grapple but has 0 movement and can't stand up the same turn. Kick him in the ribs a few more times with advantage and then get away and look for your next opening.

[Osrogue]

Did anyone try a Frenzy Barbarian?

EDIT: It's midnight, I'm not crunching the numbers now, but I'm pretty sure with Retaliatiion a Path of the Berserker Barb would win the fight hands down. Like, HANDS down.

Equal effective health.
Equal effective attack bonus
Equal effective ac
Equal effective damage
Twice as many attacks

Yeah, it would win.
Would also overcome the regenerative abilities of a champion with defensive duelist, who can also defeat the bear barbarian.

[Mellack]

Wouldn't an aarakocra with a longbow of almost any class beat him? Just fly up out of javelin range and keep shooting.

[JellyPooga]

An Oath of Ancients Paladin might have a shot at out-attrition-ing the Barbarian. I haven't run the numbers, but Elder Champion heals 10hp per round for a minute, Stoneskin gives you resistance to damage, plus the heals the Paladin has access to, in addition to better nova-damage...as I say, I might rate his chances.

[MadBear]

Let's see a vengeance paladin will probably have resilience in CON, so having haste up for the fight is a smart choice, as is adding in polearm master for an additional attack. In the case of fighting the barbarian, having a quarterstaff and shield seem better (22AC with haste) to help reduce damage compared to having reach. The soul of vengeance would allow you to always retaliate. At level 20, you also have a single action, 100hp heal.

So I we have 2 character's who are both making 3 attacks per round. Both will make reaction attacks. The Barbarian has resitance, but the Paladin has the burst damage from smites. The Paladin also has a decent self heal available when needed.

A vengeance paladin will also have banishment available. So in a pinch assuming you're ahead in the initiative count, you could cast banishment. Heal yourself. Drink a few potions (assuming they're allowed), and then when the Barbarian returns (out of rage), you cast hold person, and proceed to smack him in the face with an autocritting smite.

Overall, I'd give the edge to the Vengeance paladin, but only because he'd literally spend all of his spell slot resources into the fight. The barbarian would be more tanky overall.

Finally, the Paladin if in real trouble could just sprout his wings, and fly above the barbarian with 120ft movement speed (60 base+ haste).

To really know how'd it'd go though, you'd need to have a stat'd out barbarian so that we'd know what it had AC + attack wise.

[Mechaviking]

Short Answer: Barbarian wins

Long answer: ...Read on

[Warning] A LOT OF NUMBERS


You probably need another half-orc to beat a half-orc ;D

So here goes

The Character:
Half-Orc Champion fighter 12/Shadow Monk 8
Starting stats:
Str 16, Dex 13, Con 16, Int 8, Wis 13, Cha 9
Fighting Styles: Defense & great weapon
Weapon of choice Great Axe, Armor of choice full plate
12 levels of fighter and 8 monk levels give us 6 Ability increases, so Strength 20, Con 20, GWM and Insert feat of choice here(probably lucky, maybe tough).
AC: 19 HP: 216

The Tactic:

In dim light or darkness we endlessly kite by jumping 60´ as a bonus action after each of our 3 attacks, leaving the Barbarian super frustrated throwing pesky javelins at us, we outdamage him and eventually wear him down.

[Afterthought = Several hours of math later]

Hmm scratch that I guess the barb can ready action to beat us up when we go into melee.

In daylight we take him on in one on one combat and adjust our tactics to his, we use our bonus action for an extra attack when we crit otherwise we use it for the dodge action via KI point.

The Math:

Fighter Damage:

His weapon does (7,5 Base GWFS), Strength(5) and his crits are (2x7,5=15)

+11 vs AC 20, 30 attacks over 10 rounds:

No GWM, No Advantage: 60% to hit, 18 hits, 3 Crits, 1,8 extra hits = 19,8 hits + 3 Crits
No GWM, Advantage: 84% to hit, 25,2 hits, 5,7 Crits 4,788 extra hit = 29,988 hits + 5,7 Crits
GWM, No Advantage: 35% to hit, 10,5 hits, 3 Crits, 1,8 extra hit = 12,3 hits + 3 Crits
GWM, Advantage: 57,75% to hit, 17,325 hits, 5,7 Crits 4,788 extra hit = 22,113 hits + 5,7 Crits

Damage

No GWM, No Advantage: 146,25(292,5 Pre Resistance) Alive
No GWM, Advantage: 230,175(460,35 Pre Resistance) Alive
GWM, No Advantage: 152,69(305,38 Pre Resistance) Alive
GWM, Advantage: 274,69(549,38 Pre Resistance) Alive


Hmm not quite dead but what happens to us? I´m starting to think that a straight lvl 20 champion might be better considering we have only the 10 bonus actions over 10 turns and when we crit we have to wager our life on his dice, but we get 4,3 dodges so maybie well live.

It is at this point that I notice that we only have 7(No advantage) or 4(Advantage) Bonus actions to spare for bonus action dodges, meaning we can hedge our bets and can ditch 5 Monk levels for rogue levels to use our reaction to reduce the damage of one of his attacks in half that´ll cut the damage by a quarter, but we´ll lose 1 ability increase or just alltogether ditch monk and go rogue for simply for the quarter redutction(Note: At this point I haven´t done the math for partial disadvantage rounds)

So GWM is only worth it with advantage :D, so I guess we grab it so he wont chance it.(Not that he needs it :D).


Let´s see how the barbarian does:

His weapon does (6,5 Base), Strength(7), Rage(4), his crits are few but add (5x6,5=32,5!!!), we can effectively cancel crits with luck

+13 vs AC 19, 20 attacks over 10 rounds:

No GWM, No Advantage: 75% to hit, 15 hits, 0,05 Crits 0,038 extra hit = 15,05 hits + 0,038 Crit
No GWM, Advantage: 93,75% to hit, 18,75 hits, 0,1 crit, 0,107 extra hits = 18,857 hits +0,107 Crit
GWM, No Advantage: 50% to hit, 10 hits, 0,05 Crit, 0,038 extra hit = 10,038 hits + 0,05 Crit
GWM, Advantage: 75% to hit, 15 hits, 0,1 crit, 0,107 extra hit = 15,107 hits + 0,1 Crit

No GWM, No Adv, 7 Turns dodge: 12,375 Hits, 0,335 Crits(Negated by luck)
No GWM, Adv on 6 Turns, Dodge 4 Turns: 17,25 Hits, 1,57 Crits(Again Negated by luck)
GWM, No Adv, 7 Turns Dodge: 6,5 Hits, 0,335 Crits(Luckereeno)
GWM, Adv on 6 Turns, Dodge 4 Turns: 13 Hits, 1,57 Crits(Luckylucky)

Damage

No GWM, No Advantage: Lucky= 264,6; No Lucky=308,13
No GWM, Advantage: Lucky= 333,48; No Lucky=423,5
GWM, No Advantage: Lucky= 277,67; No Lucky=321,25
GWM, Advantage: Lucky= 418,7; No Lucky=516,11

[Afterthought number2 = after more thinking]

Starting to think that a ranged build might work better...

Hits With Bonus action [Dodge] when Able

No GWM, No Adv, 7 Turns dodge: 216,6; -0,6
No GWM, Adv on 6 Turns, Dodge 4 Turns: 301,9; -Alot
GWM, No Adv, 7 Turns Dodge: 178,8; Alive
GWM, Adv on 6 Turns, Dodge 4 Turns: 357,5; Dead as a doornail

So yeah, First Idea didn´t work out to hot as you can see. I didn´t want to throw barbarian in there as a multiclass but it looks like you have to be a barbarian to survive a barbarian.
Dodge and lucky do however provide A LOT of mitigation effectively nullifying crits, I wonder if we can throw rogue in there for some extra mitigation and maybie survive. 1 level of barbarian and you survive this easy.

Let´s be glad pc don´t have to cagematch each other a lot. Hope you learned something :D I did.

[HoarsHalberd]

Aaracokra ranger or fighter. Longbow. Picks up Sharpshooter feat. Spends every turn twanging away from maximum range with a longbow from above. Barbarian can do nothing but run and hide. Or if he has a longbow, try and hit with disadvantage against a 17 AC. I think the best bet would be Eldritch knight to get Magic Weapon as a 4th level spell to speed up the process. Now it ignores resistance and gets a +2 to hit and damage. Barbarian slowly, but surely, dies.

[SharkForce]

Aaracokra ranger or fighter. Longbow. Picks up Sharpshooter feat. Spends every turn twanging away from maximum range with a longbow from above. Barbarian can do nothing but run and hide. Or if he has a longbow, try and hit with disadvantage against a 17 AC. I think the best bet would be Eldritch knight to get Magic Weapon as a 4th level spell to speed up the process. Now it ignores resistance and gets a +2 to hit and damage. Barbarian slowly, but surely, dies.

bear totem barbarian actually resists magic weapons too. only thing that goes through is psychic.

you'd still win, but magic weapon won't speed it up nearly as much as you might think.

[Mechaviking]

bear totem barbarian actually resists magic weapons too. only thing that goes through is psychic.

you'd still win, but magic weapon won't speed it up nearly as much as you might think.

Regular barbarian woukld be fine, he resists physical damage weather its magical or not.

[Vogonjeltz]

A lvl 5 wood elf eagle barbarian with the mobility feat can move 165 feet a round. Double dash, 35+10+10.

The Barbarian of this thread (djreynolds Barbarian) doesn't have mobility.


Monk can outrun a Barbarian, but can't hit-and-run whilst staying out of reach.

Monk has 60ft speed. That means he can go 30ft in, hit, then run away 30ft. That's not fast enough to get away from the Barbarian with his 40ft speed unless the Monk can reduce the Barbarians speed somehow (e.g. knock him prone), but the Monks methods of slowing the Barbarian are Str and Con Saves...both things a Barbarian is superlative at.

The Monk can double his speed using Ki and go 60-hit-60, which will do the trick, but the Monk only has 20 Ki points and probably wants to save as many of those for offensive options like Stunning Fist as he can. Once he stops spending Ki to Dash, he can get locked down by the Barbarian in a Grapple and pounded into the ground.

Sure he can. If the Barbarian wants to deal damage at all, he must close to melee. Provided the Monk starts in melee range and has mobility, he can make all his attacks and then proceed to move his speed away (70 feet). This exceeds the Barbarian's speed, even assuming a unarmored wood elf with mobility (55). At this point the Monk can simply sit at range and plink away, the only way for the Barbarian to close distance is dashing, and that precludes attacking but would allow the Monk to attack, and then move well out of range again.

[Firechanter]

Okay, I haven't read the entire thread, so please excuse me if the same things have already been said. So let me think, what would my Vengeance Pala do, as currently planned?

At Level 20 I plan him to have: Str 20, Cha 18-20, GWM, Resilience (Con), 164HP.

Well, at level 20, we can Fly for one hour. Need I say more?

Also, the Pala uses spells that target Wis. The Save DC is 19 whereas the Barb still saves on -1 just like on level 1 --> Barb needs a Natural 20 to save. And even if he does save once, the Pala has a _lot_ of spell slots for Hold Person to go through.

Let the Barb win Initiative, no problem. Upon approaching our Avenging Angel, he will become Frightened 95% of the time. Without Advantage, he's not going to incapacitate us in the first round. Our Paladin, on his turn, casts Hold Person -- End Encounter.

And even if that for some reason doesn't fly -- we do. You're an Angel, just fly up and stay outside the Barb's Ranged Attack range until he runs out of Rages. Pepper him with arrows in the meantime -- your Hit and Damage may suck, but you just need to wear him down by attrition.
If the Barb hits you back enough so it hurts, you just fly out of range entirely and use your magic to heal yourself. You have 100HP Lay On Hands and an even larger amount via spell slots.

So long story short... completely disregarding magic items, I see the Barbarian rolling over like a kitten, and no two ways about it.

[Vogonjeltz]

Okay, I haven't read the entire thread, so please excuse me if the same things have already been said. So let me think, what would my Vengeance Pala do, as currently planned?

At Level 20 I plan him to have: Str 20, Cha 18-20, GWM, Resilience (Con), 164HP.

Well, at level 20, we can Fly for one hour. Need I say more?

Also, the Pala uses spells that target Wis. The Save DC is 19 whereas the Barb still saves on -1 just like on level 1 --> Barb needs a Natural 20 to save. And even if he does save once, the Pala has a _lot_ of spell slots for Hold Person to go through.

Let the Barb win Initiative, no problem. Upon approaching our Avenging Angel, he will become Frightened 95% of the time. Without Advantage, he's not going to incapacitate us in the first round. Our Paladin, on his turn, casts Hold Person -- End Encounter.

And even if that for some reason doesn't fly -- we do. You're an Angel, just fly up and stay outside the Barb's Ranged Attack range until he runs out of Rages. Pepper him with arrows in the meantime -- your Hit and Damage may suck, but you just need to wear him down by attrition.
If the Barb hits you back enough so it hurts, you just fly out of range entirely and use your magic to heal yourself. You have 100HP Lay On Hands and an even larger amount via spell slots.

So long story short... completely disregarding magic items, I see the Barbarian rolling over like a kitten, and no two ways about it.

Barbarians have unlimited rages at 20.

[JellyPooga]

Sure he can. If the Barbarian wants to deal damage at all, he must close to melee. Provided the Monk starts in melee range

Let me stop you there. If the Monk starts in melee range, the Barbarian has a very good chance of winning Initiative (Feral Instinct) and grappling the Monk (Advantage on Str checks; Rage). Monk goes nowhere.

Let's assume the Monk doesn't get grappled right off the bat...


and has mobility, he can make all his attacks and then proceed to move his speed away (70 feet). This exceeds the Barbarian's speed, even assuming a unarmored wood elf with mobility (55). At this point the Monk can simply sit at range and plink away, the only way for the Barbarian to close distance is dashing, and that precludes attacking but would allow the Monk to attack, and then move well out of range again.

Why would the Barbarian Dash to get next to the Monk and allow him to rinse and repeat? If the Monk is "plinking away" with a thrown or ranged weapon, so is the Barbarian and the Barbarian has more HP and Damage Resistance. Monk loses.

If the Monk runs in to melee the Barbarian, he isn't fast enough (without spending Ki) to get in, attack and get far enough away that the Barbarian can't just waltz up and hit him for six.

[Vogonjeltz]

Let me stop you there. If the Monk starts in melee range, the Barbarian has a very good chance of winning Initiative (Feral Instinct) and grappling the Monk (Advantage on Str checks; Rage). Monk goes nowhere.

Let's assume the Monk doesn't get grappled right off the bat...



Why would the Barbarian Dash to get next to the Monk and allow him to rinse and repeat? If the Monk is "plinking away" with a thrown or ranged weapon, so is the Barbarian and the Barbarian has more HP and Damage Resistance. Monk loses.

If the Monk runs in to melee the Barbarian, he isn't fast enough (without spending Ki) to get in, attack and get far enough away that the Barbarian can't just waltz up and hit him for six.

Because the Barbarian doesn't get any benefit on ranged weapon attacks, and the monk has deflect missiles which reduced damage done by minimum of 21 points and a maximum of 35

In addition: if the monk is open hand, let's also assume they have tranquility up, which the Barbarian is only winning on a 20

Or way of shadow in which case they cast darkness and shadow step.

Or elements could cast hold person to paralyze the barbarian or gaseous form to escape them, or Thunderwave to push them, or fist of unbroken air to push them, or gust of wind to push them, or wall of stone to force the barbarian away, breaking the grapple.

[JellyPooga]

Because the Barbarian doesn't get any benefit on ranged weapon attacks, and the monk has deflect missiles which reduced damage done by minimum of 21 points and a maximum of 35

Yes, the Monk can reduce the damage of one attack to 0 every turn, but the Barbarian has two attacks.

The Barbarian can use a Longbow, for 1d8 damage. The Monk, assuming he's taken Crossbow Expert, can get two attacks with a Light Crossbow for the same damage. If he hasn't got Crossbow Expert, he's doing less (base) damage. Reasonably speaking, you can't carry enough thrown weapons to win this fight by "plinking", so the Monk isn't using Martial Arts on this one.

So what we have is the Barbarian with one 1d8 attack going through per round and the Monk with two 1d8 attacks going through. Barbarian has DR, reducing the Monks damage by half. So they're "plinking" for about the same damage each round.

Guess who has more HP?

[Vogonjeltz]

Yes, the Monk can reduce the damage of one attack to 0 every turn, but the Barbarian has two attacks.

The Barbarian can use a Longbow, for 1d8 damage. The Monk, assuming he's taken Crossbow Expert, can get two attacks with a Light Crossbow for the same damage. If he hasn't got Crossbow Expert, he's doing less (base) damage. Reasonably speaking, you can't carry enough thrown weapons to win this fight by "plinking", so the Monk isn't using Martial Arts on this one.

So what we have is the Barbarian with one 1d8 attack going through per round and the Monk with two 1d8 attacks going through. Barbarian has DR, reducing the Monks damage by half. So they're "plinking" for about the same damage each round.

Guess who has more HP?

The monk can throw one of the barbarians arrows back, so that's technically 3 attacks per round. Also, the monk is more likely to have high dexterity, the Barbarian likely went with high strength.

[JellyPooga]

The monk can throw one of the barbarians arrows back, so that's technically 3 attacks per round. Also, the monk is more likely to have high dexterity, the Barbarian likely went with high strength.

Depending on how much the monk has in Con, it could go either way. If, somehow, the Monk has a massive Con score, he'll probably win a plinking match. The Monk has a few other tricks too, but the Barbarian has Relentless Rage. The Monk probably hasn't got Crossbow Expert either (unless he's being designed specifically to kill a Barbarian in 1-vs-1 deathmatch), which drops his base damage a little, but I'll admit it's closer than I first imagined.

If we modify the Barbarian slightly and take Eagle Totem at 3rd, he gets Bonus Action: Dash all day, every day. This would prevent a Monk or a Rogue having a speed advantage. The Monk could spend Ki to get one, but...limited resource.

It occurs to me that in a martials only combat, the Barbarian is probably better off with Eagle Totem than Bear.

[Firechanter]

Barbarians have unlimited rages at 20.

Okay. So what? He is still helpless against Hold Person. Or anything else that targets Wis. Or Fly.

By the way, I'd also rage without end on level 20 if I were defeated by a 1st-level spell. :p

[Longcat]

How does your Paladin get access to Fly without multiclassing into a casting class? Those are banned for the purpose of this challenge.

Though the "martial" mortal combat has been turned into a big farce anyway. Nearly all contenders rely on spells to avoid a straight up fight with the Barbarian, with most others turning to kiting or permanent stealth. I'd like to see how this challenge would turn out if the arena was a 20'x20'x10' room with no cover and a permanent antimagic field.

[Firechanter]

The Vengeance lvl 20 class feature?

Of course you can now add constraints designed to help the Barbarian / nix the other classes' features, but that's moving the goalposts. Then you're comparing the Barbarian with all features vs parts of other classes, and where's the point in that?

[Longcat]

Ah, the Vengeance Level 20 feature. In that case, the Barbarian should take shelter under a roof while the Paladin is flying, as both of their ranged attacks will likely suck.

The point of the modification would be to make the challenge about the actual "martial mortal combat". So far, the vast majority of submissions are violating the spirit of a "martial mortal combat" by resorting to spellcasting or other tactics that are designed to avoid actual "martial combat". Sure, they defeat the Barbarian, but none of them do so through "martial mortal combat".

[Firechanter]

Well, if you want to preclude any kind of magic use, the challenge reverts to "Fighter vs Barbarian". I believe we have a few threads about that already.

[djreynolds]

This is great discussion. The barbarian gets some ridiculous class features. I really miss combat expertise from 3.5. It was very beneficial, and gave that battle-master feel.

I'm open to any magic really, other than full caster types. Stoneskin seems a must for anyone going toe-to-toe. For those who say martials are weak, forget facing that buffed up cleric in 3.5 with every spell running at once. Concentration really limits spell usage to a degree.

It is definitely a war of attrition.

[NNescio]

Ah, the Vengeance Level 20 feature. In that case, the Barbarian should take shelter under a roof while the Paladin is flying, as both of their ranged attacks will likely suck.

The point of the modification would be to make the challenge about the actual "martial mortal combat". So far, the vast majority of submissions are violating the spirit of a "martial mortal combat" by resorting to spellcasting or other tactics that are designed to avoid actual "martial combat". Sure, they defeat the Barbarian, but none of them do so through "martial mortal combat".

Well, what else do you expect when the thread OP deliberately put air quotes over the word "martial"?

[djreynolds]

Because I'm unsure if anyone can defeat a 20th level barbarian toe-to-toe. Maybe that crazy monk/rogue/fighter hybrid could?

Its definitely a tough fight. With SPBI, its really gonna be tough. You need a way to mitigate the barbarian's strength, literally. Its real tough to shove him around but you still have to defend from that. And you must find away to eat away his massive hit points.

I only have hybrid classes in my mind. Mostly involves shield and finesse weapon, defensive duelist, plate armor, and expertise in athletics and acrobatics, survivor, and shield master. Champion 18/rogue 2, defensive duelist, is a poor man's uncanny dodge for me but I need survivor. I need defensive style and duelist style. I need a maxed strength and really good dex score and maxed con and perhaps toughness to boot. Cunning action will be needed to break away and force the barbarian to reengage and get AoO. Shield master allows me the very slim chance to prone the barbarian. And I'd take athletics, only here, just to be able to get up. But with 6 feats, because I lost my 19th, it will be tough even with 15/15/15/8/8/8 to max out strength and grab athletics and defensive duelist, and then max out strength and con (assuming I take half-orc or mountain dwarf) I'm taking shield master over sentinel because its 1 on 1 battle or maybe even toughness.

[Malifice]

Any reason why an action surging BM Fighter with a Greatsword and GWM would struggle?

I mean, sure the Barb has a lot of HP, but by god he'll be taking a ton of damage over those first two action surges.

God help him if he recklessly attacks before the BM drops his second action surge.

[djreynolds]

Any reason why an action surging BM Fighter with a Greatsword and GWM would struggle?

I mean, sure the Barb has a lot of HP, but by god he'll be taking a ton of damage over those first two action surges.

God help him if he recklessly attacks before the BM drops his second action surge.

I think the question is, how would you play the barbarian in this? Are you holding off your reckless attacks until he action surges or uses up hit superiority dice? Can you disarm him or trip up the battle-master? Did the battle-master dip 2 levels of rogue? Is the battle-master strong enough to land that one trip and then try to disarm the barbarian with advantage, when the barbarian, AFB, is getting a possible 24 on his strength save and possibly with advantage from rage?

I have no answers, its why I left it to the pros.

I wish, I wish that the battle-master could use his superiority dice for more than just damage, but on skill and save checks. Like disarm, you would add 1d12 vs the barbarian's strength check.

[Malifice]

I think the question is, how would you play the barbarian in this? Are you holding off your reckless attacks until he action surges or uses up hit superiority dice? Can you disarm him or trip up the battle-master? Did the battle-master dip 2 levels of rogue? Is the battle-master strong enough to land that one trip and then try to disarm the barbarian with advantage, when the barbarian, AFB, is getting a possible 24 on his strength save and possibly with advantage from rage?

The BM is doing some serious damage. God help you if he's a Half Orc too, and packing a greataxe.

In the first two rounds you cop 16 attacks dealing 1d12+15 each (with an extra 6d12 damage from sup dice to spread arand). an extra 2d12 if any crit, and up to two bonus action attacks from GWM on a crit. Re-roll 1's and 2's.

Thats gonna hurt like hell, rage or no rage.

[Firechanter]

Well, this goes to show that a one-trick pony is a bad idea, especially in a 1-on-1. The sample Barb put absolutely everything in melee offense, and is caught pants-down by anything with a Will Save.
If the Barb sacrificed one ASI on Resilience(Wis) and didn't dump Wis, he'd lose a bit of Con and Dex, but relying on Wis-Save debuffs to neutralize him would no longer be a reliable strategy.

[djreynolds]

Well, this goes to show that a one-trick pony is a bad idea, especially in a 1-on-1. The sample Barb put absolutely everything in melee offense, and is caught pants-down by anything with a Will Save.
If the Barb sacrificed one ASI on Resilience(Wis) and didn't dump Wis, he'd lose a bit of Con and Dex, but relying on Wis-Save debuffs to neutralize him would no longer be a reliable strategy.

Feel free to changed up the barbarian however you choose, not a problem. I definitely agree with you. Heck even frenzy gives some will stuff. But definitely resilient wisdom, go ahead.

I though this would be a fun thread for guys and gals.

A much more positive vibe

[JellyPooga]

Feel free to changed up the barbarian however you choose, not a problem. I definitely agree with you. Heck even frenzy gives some will stuff. But definitely resilient wisdom, go ahead.

I though this would be a fun thread for guys and gals.

A much more positive vibe

Hmm, I considered the OP build a fairly poor use of standard point-buy. How about this instead;

(7)Str: 14+2 = 16
(4)Dex: 12
(9)Con: 15+1 = 16
(0)Int: 8
(5)Wis: 13
(2)Cha: 10

Feats/ASI
4th: +2 Str
8th: +2 Str
12th: +2 Con
16th +2 Con
19th: Resilient (Wis)

Final Stats - Str 24, Dex 12, Con 24, Int 8, Wis 14, Cha 10
Saves: Str +13, Dex +1, Con +13, Int -1, Wis +8, Cha +0

Totem Spirit: Eagle - Bonus Action (Dash), better mobility
Aspect of the Beast: Eagle - Flavour text
Totemic Attunement: Wolf - Bonus Action knock Prone

Salient Improvements
- Eagle Totem means Kiting now doesn't work; he's the fastest single-classed piece on the board with any endurance (Monk 18/Rogue 2 is the only thing faster as far as I can tell).
- Wis Save Proficiency means Save-or-die magic isn't a win-button against him
Drawbacks
- AC is lower. This isn't much of a problem as the to hit bonus of your opponent is likely high enough to hit you regardless.
- No Bear Totem. Paladins can mess you up with Smite damage.

Thoughts?

[zylodrizzt]

I think its worth pointing out that u can take bear totem at 3rd and take eagle totem 3rd at 6th level as well.

[Mara]

What is meant by SPBI?

[Coidzor]

What is meant by SPBI?

Standard Point Buy something or other?

[JellyPooga]

I think its worth pointing out that u can take bear totem at 3rd and take eagle totem 3rd at 6th level as well.

You can't get both the 3rd level Eagle and the 3rd level Bear. You can have 3rd level Eagle and 6th level Bear (and whatever you like at 10th), but you can't select an earlier level ability as your 6th level choice.

[Vogonjeltz]

Okay. So what? He is still helpless against Hold Person. Or anything else that targets Wis. Or Fly.

By the way, I'd also rage without end on level 20 if I were defeated by a 1st-level spell. :p

Well, you said in your previous post which I was quoting:


You're an Angel, just fly up and stay outside the Barb's Ranged Attack range until he runs out of Rages.

I'm saying, he won't run out of rages. I wasn't critiquing the use of Hold Person, I think that's basically going to win the fight because this Barbarian's weakness is wisdom saves.

[zylodrizzt]

Your right u can't get bear totem and eagle totem lvl 3. I misread the 6th level ability. However I believe we should shore up the barbarian build to account for all the builds that beat him. I will have one later after a bit of research.

[Firechanter]

Hmm, I considered the OP build a fairly poor use of standard point-buy. How about this instead;

(7)Str: 14+2 = 16
(4)Dex: 12
(9)Con: 15+1 = 16
(0)Int: 8
(5)Wis: 13
(2)Cha: 10

Feats/ASI
4th: +2 Str
8th: +2 Str
12th: +2 Con
16th +2 Con
19th: Resilient (Wis)

Final Stats - Str 24, Dex 12, Con 24, Int 8, Wis 14, Cha 10
Saves: Str +13, Dex +1, Con +13, Int -1, Wis +8, Cha +0

Totem Spirit: Eagle - Bonus Action (Dash), better mobility
Aspect of the Beast: Eagle - Flavour text
Totemic Attunement: Wolf - Bonus Action knock Prone

Salient Improvements
- Eagle Totem means Kiting now doesn't work; he's the fastest single-classed piece on the board with any endurance (Monk 18/Rogue 2 is the only thing faster as far as I can tell).
- Wis Save Proficiency means Save-or-die magic isn't a win-button against him
Drawbacks
- AC is lower. This isn't much of a problem as the to hit bonus of your opponent is likely high enough to hit you regardless.
- No Bear Totem. Paladins can mess you up with Smite damage.

Thoughts?

I agree that this would be a much more well-rounded build. You could still argue about using Eagle3 or Bear3, but let's stick with this build for the time being.
For the record, this Barb would have 287HP, attack 2x at +13, and hit for 1d12+11.
I think he would benefit from GWM, but for that he'd have to give up another ASI, so let's skip this for the moment.

Again, I look at a fight against the same Vengadin as before.

Still disregarding any magic items, this would go against the Pala's AC of 18, all with advantage, so 96% hit chance, for an average of... 33 per round? Not more? Maybe I am missing something. Well, this isn't counting crits but I'm too lazy to calculate those now. Note that each individual hit is very unlikely to disturb any Concentration the Paladin might be maintaining.

The Paladin attacks with just +11 vs AC 18, but also with Advantage --> 91% hit chance (without Power Attack), average DPR 24 Slashing, plus possible Smites, plus possible buffs (e.g. Haste to add a 3rd attack).
Would Power Attack pay off? Reduces Hit Chance to 70% per attack, but total average increases to 32 (plus X). So this would be the go-to method when all else is expended.

Against this New And Improved Barb, Hold Person (or any other Wis Save spell) is very questionable: Paladin uses an Action to cast the spell, then the Barb gets _two_ chances to make his save before the Pala can actually attack. So the odds of actually catching the Barb paralyzed for just one round is down from >90% to 25%.

So _if_ this actually happens, the Paladin can land 3 Critical Hits, probably using maximum Smites every time -- that's a total of 90 points Slashing (so, getting halved) plus 162 (3x 6d8 x2 for Crit) points of Radiant damage (not halved without Bear3). So that should take off a huge chunk (around 207) off this Barb's HP in one go.

If it happens a second time, the Pala will need to revert to lower spell slots, but still well over 100dmg should get through -- and game over.
However, the odds of catching the Barb paralyzed for two rounds is just 12,5%.

But the Paladin has another spellcasting trick up his sleeve:
Once the Pala's Hit Points get dangerously low, he could cast Banishment on the Barb (Material component: soap. Or a book) -- which is a Cha save, so 90% chance it will go through. Then the Paladin has a full minute to heal up, using LoH and any spell slots he wants to invest. When the Barb returns after 1 minute, he'll be up against a freshly healed and, possibly, buffed Paladin again.

A nice "Finishing Move" would be Banishing Smite - which can be combined with a Divine Smite - for +5D10 Force damage (avg +27,5). If he manages to time this to a point where the Barb has <50HP left after the attack, the Barb gets another timeout.

(I am unsure as to whether the Barb could Ready an Action for "when I return to the combat zone" -- he might not even know what is happening to him, much less that he will return a minute later.)

All in all, it's nowhere near such a foregone conclusion as with the Wis-dumping Barb. Some lucky rolls could swing the fight either way. Even if the dice fall just as is to be expected, I'm not sure at all who would win -- at any rate, the Pala probably needs to pull every trick he can to stand a chance.

[1Forge]

Dex based fighter spend each turn dodging rage attacks then use superiority die to disarm your opponent. After its disarmed Wai on it with two light clubs

[1Forge]

Well first tea and biscuits... But I suppose if that fails you could:

Dex based fighter spend each turn dodging rage attacks then use superiority die to disarm your opponent. After its disarmed use rope to hamper its movement till you've effectively tied it up. One turn later its rage ends and you knock it out.

#lawfullgood

Or you could idk be a devotion paladin and instantly decimate it with your aura of awsome.

[CNagy]

So it turns out the first prestige class for 5e is pretty much the Anti-Barb.

Champion 18/Rune Scribe 2, Stein rune, Defense and GWF style, crit 18-20, three attacks: Maul with Crushing Brand dealing 2d6+5 (or more with GWM), low chance of knockdown but more importantly bypasses immunity/resistance to bludgeoning damage.

If you want to be on the safer side, drop two levels of Champion, add 2 levels of Rogue and Expertise in Athletics.

[Mechaviking]

I forgot to math the single action surge my fighter build, so the build may be able to kill him in one round, but would destroy me in the process.

rough math tells me that, a Champion fighter at 20 is at least doing 50% more damage than my build(48 attacks instead of 30 and crits on an 18 netting him at least 6 crits, with barbarian reckless that goes up to 12 giving him that many extra attacks as well.

So that´s roughly sixty attacks, more than enough to kill anything that bleeds.

How to survive that is the big question, heavy armor expert gives us a flat 60 hp(20 attacks reduced by 3) and we can burn one on lucky to effectively negate crits and increase the chance of winning initiative.

Only question is when you receive said damage and when you deal yours out.

I´ll do the math real quick since I´m used to it, I´ll post it later.

[Math Update]

Part 2:

20 Strength, GWM, FS GW & Def.

Avg Great axe damage is 7,5, Strength is +5, Crits are an extra 15 damage(half orc).

+11 vs AC 20, 48 attacks over 10 rounds:

GWM, No Advantage: 35% to hit, 16,8 hits, 7,2 Crits, 2,52 extra hits = 19,32 hits + 7,2 Crits
GWM, Advantage: 57,75% to hit, 27,72 hits, 13,32 Crits 5,775 extra hits = 33,5 hits + 13,32 Crits

GWM, No Advantage: 271,35(542,7 Pre Resistance) Dead
GWM, Advantage: 481,78(963,55 Pre Resistance) Dead

Survivability: 224 Hps(no toughness)

Barb, same stats as before

GWM, No Advantage:Heavy armor master= 217,67 Lucky= 277,67; No Lucky=321,25
GWM, Advantage: Heavy Armor master=358,7 Lucky= 418,7; No Lucky=516,11

So yeah half-orc greataxe greatweapon fighter can kill of the Barbarian, if he goes all out he kills him even harder, didn´t bother with the non GWM attacks since the previous posts math showed that gwm is always worth it and most of the fighters damage is directly tied to that anyways.

About 5 rounds in the fighter starts regening 10 hp´s per round, but the lose condition remains the same, also those extra crit for barb are pretty worthless, in this exchange.

It takes the fighter 6 rounds to kill the barb (5,916 rounds according to math, but probably just 5 since we get 8 attacks in the fyrst two rounds), in that time the barb does 215,22 Damage, fighter regenerates 30 hp´s and lives.

So there I´m done I have proven that it is possible in martial combat in a box.

Do I get a medal? Are we done here?

Aside from that this was a good excersize.

[Hudsonian]

I haven't done extensive math or anything. But I think a barb 14/Fight 6 or a Fight 17/ barb 3 could do it pretty efficiently as well. Half-Orc for savage attack.

strength build, GWM instead of fighting style Berserk/Champion paths.

4 attacks every round, take reckless attack every time. It doesn't really matter if you get knocked prone, they have advantage anyway.

Both sides get halved damage so that's not an issue. Fighter is a little easier to hit but also gets WAY more crit % total per round.

The original post has more hitpoints, but this build doles probably 3/4 as much DPR and cancels out the other guys rage with his own. (a little less rage damage, but the extra attack actually means this build has more rage damage all around)

Actually come to think of it... In a toe to toe fight, I think a berserker Barb would take a totem barb any day. (non-magical weapons)

[Hudsonian]

I haven't done extensive math or anything. But I think a barb 14/Fight 6 or a Fight 17/ barb 3 could do it pretty efficiently as well. Half-Orc for savage attack.

strength build, GWM instead of fighting style Berserk/Champion paths.

4 attacks every round, take reckless attack every time. It doesn't really matter if you get knocked prone, they have advantage anyway.

Both sides get halved damage so that's not an issue. Fighter is a little easier to hit but also gets WAY more crit % total per round.

The original post has more hitpoints, but this build doles probably 3/4 as much DPR and cancels out the other guys rage with his own. (a little less rage damage, but the extra attack actually means this build has more rage damage all around)

Actually come to think of it... In a toe to toe fight, I think a berserker Barb would take a totem barb any day. (non-magical weapons)

[Shojiteru]

Not sure if this has been done, but here is one tha would defeat the barbarian, no damage taken.

Aaracokra
Monk
8 str
16 dex (going 20)
14 con
10 int
16 wis (going 20)
10 cha.
Ac 16 start, 20 end. It and hp dont matter.
Mobile feat

Hit barbarian and fly straight up or just move straight back. Next turn since he couldnt go 105 feet in 1 turn or whatever was left, go back and hit him then leave. This effectively will kill him eventually. Even if the battle lasts days. He has no choice but to fight since running would merely help the monk. First round hit would be only potential damage so better make it count then mock the barbarian and dont use a single ki point, there is no time limit. The longer, the better.

[Shojiteru]

Actually come to think of it... In a toe to toe fight, I think a berserker Barb would take a totem barb any day. (non-magical weapons)

The totem barb would just have to last 1 minute then the beserker is exausted. A few more minutes, the beserker killed himself.

[Malifice]

Not sure if this has been done, but here is one tha would defeat the barbarian, no damage taken.

Aaracokra
Monk
8 str
16 dex (going 20)
14 con
10 int
16 wis (going 20)
10 cha.
Ac 16 start, 20 end. It and hp dont matter.
Mobile feat

Hit barbarian and fly straight up or just move straight back. Next turn since he couldnt go 105 feet in 1 turn or whatever was left, go back and hit him then leave. This effectively will kill him eventually. Even if the battle lasts days. He has no choice but to fight since running would merely help the monk. First round hit would be only potential damage so better make it count then mock the barbarian and dont use a single ki point, there is no time limit. The longer, the better.

Heard of the ready action?

I'd ready an action to grapple the winged fool as soon as he enters my reach. Make an opposed Str (athletics check). I get +13 (with advantage) and can't sore less than 24.

[Kane0]

The totem barb would just have to last 1 minute then the beserker is exausted. A few more minutes, the beserker killed himself.

The first level of exhaustion is disadvantage on ability checks, but other than grappling becoming a bigger issue he could go for another minute of rage before the exhaustion becomes a real problem.


Heard of the ready action?

I'd ready an action to grapple the winged fool as soon as he enters my reach. Make an opposed Str (athletics check). I get +13 (with advantage) and can't sore less than 24.

Don't monks get an opt out of being grappled?

[Malifice]

Don't monks get an opt out of being grappled?

Nope. They get grappled like the rest of us.

[Shojiteru]

Nope. They get grappled like the rest of us.

They can be grappled if they lose the first turn but after that, if you run away and see the barbarian readying for you to come back, who says you have to go back right away? After you attack him, have a short break so you can be elemental monk. The barbarian is readied so you can take an hour.

1st turn, monk wins. Hits then runs.
Barbarian readies.
Monk obviously sees he is not being chased and sees the barbarian ready so this turn, he readies movement to move about 20 feet when the barbarian gets closer.
After barbarian moves, move in and hit.

What if he is eagle, you ask. Eagle moves 80 feet, monk would be ahead of the dwarf on the barbarians back.

Remember, a fight isn't a 1 minute thing. It could last days of both people staring at eachother with readied actions to see who moves first. The disciplineda nd well trained monk or angry barbarian? Remember angry means impatient so from rp viewpoint, how would you justify an angry "savage" to wait for someone to come to him rather than go to them? The monk can be strategic while the barbarian is inclined less to

[djreynolds]

Are you guys done talking about how you are going cook and eat this barbarian yet?

The monks ability, AFB, mind you, forces a dexterity save for the Open Hand on their trip but the push is strength. This trip attack coupled with some dips of battlemaster and rogue for cunning action could set up the whole mountain vs the viper, which is very cool. I'm not sure who first posted that, but thanks for the imagery.

[Shojiteru]

Are you guys done talking about how you are going cook and eat this barbarian yet?

The monks ability, AFB, mind you, forces a dexterity save for the Open Hand on their trip but the push is strength. This trip attack coupled with some dips of battlemaster and rogue for cunning action could set up the whole mountain vs the viper, which is very cool. I'm not sure who first posted that, but thanks for the imagery.

I would personally go shadow and pure monk so its pure vs pure but yea. Meat for dinner!

[Malifice]

Barbarian readies.
Monk obviously sees he is not being chased and sees the barbarian ready so this turn, he readies movement to move about 20 feet when the barbarian gets closer.
After barbarian moves, move in and hit.

And as soon as your movement is complete (and before your attack is resolved) my readied action is triggered (its trigger was once you enter my reach) and you're now almost certainly grappled.

[Shojiteru]

And as soon as your movement is complete (and before your attack is resolved) my readied action is triggered (its trigger was once you enter my reach) and you're now almost certainly grappled.

Yur readied action would be over because you stopped focusing on it and moved. Any intelligent creature would wonder why the angry barbarian is not chasing them and trying to destroy them. Thats when you look back and see he is ready. Thats when you ready. Now just wait until he moves from being impatient and then your ready is triggered. I would have no problem sitting at the table passing my turn back and forth until someo.e gives. Could be fun.

[djreynolds]

Because the class feature of the Open Hand Monk forces a dexterity save on the trip, this could be somewhere to build on. I would have to take 2 levels of rogue though, cunning action will save Ki points here, and expertise in acrobatics and athletics to escape grapples.

It is a tough fight to be sure. And feats like defensive duelist and a battle-master's parry would be a boon to survival. But it boils down to Ki points and damage and I'm unsure the monk can deliver that all day.

For a monk I would definitely take 5 levels of rogue for uncanny dodge or defensive duelist, mind you though crits hit no matter what, so uncanny dodge might be better in that regard because you AC is so high only crits might get through. This build would rely on stunning strikes and landing hits.

[Malifice]

Yur readied action would be over because you stopped focusing on it and moved. Any intelligent creature would wonder why the angry barbarian is not chasing them and trying to destroy them. Thats when you look back and see he is ready. Thats when you ready. Now just wait until he moves from being impatient and then your ready is triggered. I would have no problem sitting at the table passing my turn back and forth until someo.e gives. Could be fun.

What? You don't lose a readied action when you move.

Where are you getting that from?

As soon as you get close to the barb, he takes his readied action. In this case to grab you.

[Shojiteru]

What? You don't lose a readied action when you move.

Where are you getting that from?

As soon as you get close to the barb, he takes his readied action. In this case to grab you.

You lose a readied action when you do anything not applying to you being ready.
Yu dont understand. Wen the barbarian has the readied action, then the monk will never go to him. Simple as that. He isnt a magnet. I keep going straight 500'. When he gives up, then go back and hit him so he has to ready his action again. After that, try to ready acfion and it will start all over.
You cant rest while action is ready so the monk can rest while waiting for that readied action to stop because you wont wait hours.

[Shojiteru]

A.barbarian is difficult to beat, true, but remember... dont think muscle, think brains. If you cant out fight him, out think him. A level 1 can beat a level 20 if that level 1 has 20 INT.

[Malifice]

You lose a readied action when you do anything not applying to you being ready.

No, you dont.

On your turn you can freely take the readied action and move.


Yu dont understand.

No, you dont.


Wen the barbarian has the readied action, then the monk will never go to him. Simple as that.

How the heck does the monk know what the barbarian is planning on doing? Can it read minds now?


You cant rest while action is ready so the monk can rest while waiting for that readied action to stop because you wont wait hours.

What the hell are you talking about?

[Hudsonian]

The totem barb would just have to last 1 minute then the beserker is exausted. A few more minutes, the beserker killed himself.

A: Lvl 20 barbs can rage as long as they feel like.

B: barb/fight crossover has to get in one hit every 10 rounds. And that includes getting hit. AND if he gets hit, he hits back, hard.

If you think you could reasonably expect a barbarian to have any desire to kite another barbarian I expect the DM would find ways to make your character get totally wasted with no help from the enemy. Seriously, none of that build says "run away from danger" mindset.

Edit:
Just thought I'd mention that on a 10% chance to crit, the barb/fight would roll 4d12 instead of 1d12. While the fight17/barb3 has a 15% chance of 3d12. That's with the added bonus of having twice the attack rolls. Meaning that they both have a 40%/60% chance to crit EVERY round and if they get melee attacked it goes to 50% for the barb/fight.

Add advantage (Reckless Attack) and you've got 99% chance that in 10 roles one of them is going to be a crit. (No guarantees, it's a dice and the dice gods don't allow it.)

[Slipperychicken]

A.barbarian is difficult to beat, true, but remember... dont think muscle, think brains. If you cant out fight him, out think him. A level 1 can beat a level 20 if that level 1 has 20 INT.

See the build I posted, Sketchy the Wine-Tempter (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19963049&postcount=94). He has 20 int and uses magic to trick the barbarian into drinking lots of Torpor poison, then beats him senseless once he's incapacitated. The tactic has like a 98% chance of working because the barbarian is so bad at wisdom saves.

[Shojiteru]

A: Lvl 20 barbs can rage as long as they feel like.

B: barb/fight crossover has to get in one hit every 10 rounds. And that includes getting hit. AND if he gets hit, he hits back, hard.

If you think you could reasonably expect a barbarian to have any desire to kite another barbarian I expect the DM would find ways to make your character get totally wasted with no help from the enemy. Seriously, none of that build says "run away from danger" mindset.

Edit:
Just thought I'd mention that on a 10% chance to crit, the barb/fight would roll 4d12 instead of 1d12. While the fight17/barb3 has a 15% chance of 3d12. That's with the added bonus of having twice the attack rolls. Meaning that they both have a 40%/60% chance to crit EVERY round and if they get melee attacked it goes to 50% for the barb/fight.

Add advantage (Reckless Attack) and you've got 99% chance that in 10 roles one of them is going to be a crit. (No guarantees, it's a dice and the dice gods don't allow it.)

A barbarian level 20 has rage that lasts 1 minute. after it is over they can restart infinately. For beserker, means in 6 minutes, he will die of exaustion. Infinate rage and doesnt end early doesnt mean the 1 minute timeblimit disappeared.

[Shojiteru]

No, you dont.

On your turn you can freely take the readied action and move.



No, you dont.



How the heck does the monk know what the barbarian is planning on doing? Can it read minds now?



What the hell are you talking about?

How far can a barbarian go if it uses an action to ready an attack? Not far. Also, the monks readied action is move when barbarian moves so when yhe barbarian moves closer with readied action then monk moves away.

Tis is the best part. The monk DOES know what the barbarian is doing. A 20 wisdom and +11 insight means he can read what the barbarian is doing through body language. Not only about lies but also intent. Also, you have to be stupid to .ot realize that an ANGRY BARBARIAN is ANGRY. If they dont charge forward and attack blindly, SOMETHING IS WRONG. CHECK THAT OUT IMMEDIATELY.
That's like watching a hardened killer run away screaming like a girl. Something is up and it's not normal. The Wise monk would instantly spot this. Also, if the barbarian chases the monk for more than 1 minute, he needs to redo his rage. Infinaty, of course, but it will be a turn with less movement and let the monk get away. Now the barbarian needs to think if letting the monk mock him is getting him angry enough to rage again.

[Shojiteru]

See the build I posted, Sketchy the Wine-Tempter (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19963049&postcount=94). He has 20 int and uses magic to trick the barbarian into drinking lots of Torpor poison, then beats him senseless once he's incapacitated. The tactic has like a 98% chance of working because the barbarian is so bad at wisdom saves.

I love that idea. I would even go for a lower level under 20 to do that. Like 1. I would be hilarious to see a level 1 kill a 20 barbarian. If he loses initiative, he dies sure but if he wins then wins the 98%(not sure i remember how you had initiative won, it may lower win % in this case) but if he loses initiative, he just lost to a level 1. *may need rolled stats to make that possible though to roll 18 and +2 bonuses* nonetheless funny wins

[Malifice]

How far can a barbarian go if it uses an action to ready an attack? Not far. Also, the monks readied action is move when barbarian moves so when yhe barbarian moves closer with readied action then monk moves away.

Tis is the best part. The monk DOES know what the barbarian is doing. A 20 wisdom and +11 insight means he can read what the barbarian is doing through body language. Not only about lies but also intent. Also, you have to be stupid to .ot realize that an ANGRY BARBARIAN is ANGRY. If they dont charge forward and attack blindly, SOMETHING IS WRONG. CHECK THAT OUT IMMEDIATELY.
That's like watching a hardened killer run away screaming like a girl. Something is up and it's not normal. The Wise monk would instantly spot this. Also, if the barbarian chases the monk for more than 1 minute, he needs to redo his rage. Infinaty, of course, but it will be a turn with less movement and let the monk get away. Now the barbarian needs to think if letting the monk mock him is getting him angry enough to rage again.

The barbarian moves 40' and readies an action. Or vice versa it doesn't really matter.

On your turn when you enter his reach (like you said you would in your OP and you have no reason not to seeing as you can't read the Barbs mind) he reaches out and grabs you. He gets a str (athletics) check at plus +13 with advantage, with a minimum result of 24. I assume you oppose it with a dex (acrobatics) check at +11 - assuming you have the acrobatics skill and many monks do.

Barring some very unlucky rolls from the Barb, you're now grappled. Your movement becomes zero so you also fall to the ground if you were flying. You can then attack the barb if you still want to (with disadvantage due to being prone), or you can use your action to escape. It's your call.

On the barbs turn he probably shoves you prone (if you're not already) with his first Attack with another Str athletics check (if he succeeds you can't get up unless you break the grapple seeing as your movement is now zero) rendering you prone and grappled, uses his free object interaction to draw his battle axe, and starts to cave your head in with it (at advantage) while screaming in your face. Better hope he doesn't get a critical with his advantage or its 6d8 plus 12 damage.

On your turn you can either attack him with disadvantage (seeing as you're prone), use your action to try and escape. As a monk your damage isn't the best and he's raging so takes half anyway - and he comes to the party with D12 HD and a con of 24.

Unless you can break his meaty grasp he's eating Kentucky fried Aaracrocka for dinner tonight.

[Firechanter]

See, here we run into a problem with this kind of thought experiment: results vary with context and environment. So far, there is nothing specified, so we are assuming the encounter to take place on an infinite featureless plane with no rules of engagement.

One reasonable rule however is: the show must go on. If a combatant leaves the area and does not return within, say, one or two minutes, the duel counts as forfeit.

Imagine this thing as a kind of Gladiator fight in an arena, with a bloodthirsty audience cheering on the ranks. xD

[djreynolds]

It could be anywhere you like. But the obvious thing is most classes will have to have some technique or tactic or advantage or terrain to go and fight the barbarian.

I mean there is nothing wrong with resorting to hit and run tactics or even flying if the spell is there or naturally.

Hiding and sneaking could be done. Archery could be done tree top to tree top.

But going toe-to-toe is really tough. I can't wrap my brain around it. I mean I think the fighter could be built with almost similar hit points or close to, but it is just the damage reduction that is tough to get around. You could pick a certain champion build and he if got some many critical hits he could win easy, but there is the same thing where could get none. How many shield spells does the eldritch knight have as his disposal.

Unlimited rages, and the cap stone, and the damage reduction and indomitable strength are just unfair almost without resorting to mounts or wizard buddies.

A lot of "love" went into making the class. Same with paladins.

[Firechanter]

But going toe-to-toe is really tough. I can't wrap my brain around it. I mean I think the fighter could be built with almost similar hit points or close to, but it is just the damage reduction that is tough to get around. You could pick a certain champion build and he if got some many critical hits he could win easy, but there is the same thing where could get none. How many shield spells does the eldritch knight have as his disposal.

Unlimited rages, and the cap stone, and the damage reduction and indomitable strength are just unfair almost without resorting to mounts or wizard buddies.

A lot of "love" went into making the class. Same with paladins.

Well, looking at Fighter vs Barb, things are at first looking much more favourable for the Barb:
- about 60 more HP (but see below)
- which count twice to due Rage-induced Damage Resistance
- +2 higher Attack bonus and +6 higher damage per hit (from 24 Str and Rage) -- so, +13 Attack and 1d12+11 dmg
- due to higher Str, any Shove actions are likely to end in favour of the Barbarian

Now let's see, what can a Fighter hope to do about it?

- 4 Attacks per round, or 8 Attacks with Action Surge, 2 times
- Second Wind (1d10+20HP)
- Fighting Style: Dueling is +2, GWF roughly +1,3 dmg per hit on avg.
- Eldritch Knight can also get DR via Stoneskin; Concentration checks should be Auto-Save except on Crits
- EK might cast Mirror Image right before engaging to eat the first couple of attacks
- easily 2-3 feats, as VHuman even more.

Possible feat choices include:
-- Great Weapon Master
-- Polearm Master
-- Heavy Armour Master (if we stick to "no magic items")
-- Shield Master
-- Tough (+40HP)
-- Lucky

Especially Lucky might really turn the tide if you use it right -- for instance when you are Prone, you try to Shove the Barb right back, and turn your Disadvantage into a 3-Dice Advantage. Now the odds are good for your remaining 3 attacks to hit home with Power Attack (if you have it).
But the real reason why I'd consider Lucky is to negate the _murderous_ damage the Barb would churn out on a Crit (5d12+11). This would definitely ruin our Concentration, and if we lose Stoneskin it would all go downhill from there. So just pop out a Luck point and turn the Crit into a regular hit or even a miss.

Let's take for example a VHuman GWF Eldritch Knight /w Str20, Con20:
Feats: GWM, HAM, Tough, Lucky
AC 18, 264HP +1d10+20 Second Wind
Attack +11 x4, dmg 2d6*+5 = 13,3; DPR vs AC19 /w DR = 17 (without Action Surge), or use GWM if Barb is Reckless.
Special Spells: Mirror Image, Stoneskin (C)

Now here's the kicker: the Barb's expected DPR against this Fighter is just 2x 0,8 * (17,5-3 / 2) = 11,6!
The Barb is actually losing the Damage Race against the Eldritch Knight, and by a margin.

So... the Barb looks really fearsome, yes. But a well-skilled Fighter should be able to send him packing, all without offensive magic or kiting tactics.
Note that this really relies on the "no magic gear" rule -- as soon as magic weapons are in, Stoneskin is useless, but not Barb DR. If magic gear is in the game, we have to think of something else.

[djreynolds]

Well, looking at Fighter vs Barb, things are at first looking much more favourable for the Barb:
- about 60 more HP (but see below)
- which count twice to due Rage-induced Damage Resistance
- +2 higher Attack bonus and +6 higher damage per hit (from 24 Str and Rage) -- so, +13 Attack and 1d12+11 dmg
- due to higher Str, any Shove actions are likely to end in favour of the Barbarian

Now let's see, what can a Fighter hope to do about it?

- 4 Attacks per round, or 8 Attacks with Action Surge, 2 times
- Second Wind (1d10+20HP)
- Fighting Style: Dueling is +2, GWF roughly +1,3 dmg per hit on avg.
- Eldritch Knight can also get DR via Stoneskin; Concentration checks should be Auto-Save except on Crits
- EK might cast Mirror Image right before engaging to eat the first couple of attacks
- easily 2-3 feats, as VHuman even more.

Possible feat choices include:
-- Great Weapon Master
-- Polearm Master
-- Heavy Armour Master (if we stick to "no magic items")
-- Shield Master
-- Tough (+40HP)
-- Lucky

Especially Lucky might really turn the tide if you use it right -- for instance when you are Prone, you try to Shove the Barb right back, and turn your Disadvantage into a 3-Dice Advantage. Now the odds are good for your remaining 3 attacks to hit home with Power Attack (if you have it).
But the real reason why I'd consider Lucky is to negate the _murderous_ damage the Barb would churn out on a Crit (5d12+11). This would definitely ruin our Concentration, and if we lose Stoneskin it would all go downhill from there. So just pop out a Luck point and turn the Crit into a regular hit or even a miss.

Let's take for example a VHuman GWF Eldritch Knight /w Str20, Con20:
Feats: GWM, HAM, Tough, Lucky
AC 18, 264HP +1d10+20 Second Wind
Attack +11 x4, dmg 2d6*+5 = 13,3; DPR vs AC19 /w DR = 17 (without Action Surge), or use GWM if Barb is Reckless.
Special Spells: Mirror Image, Stoneskin (C)

Now here's the kicker: the Barb's expected DPR against this Fighter is just 2x 0,8 * (17,5-3 / 2) = 11,6!
The Barb is actually losing the Damage Race against the Eldritch Knight, and by a margin.

So... the Barb looks really fearsome, yes. But a well-skilled Fighter should be able to send him packing, all without offensive magic or kiting tactics.
Note that this really relies on the "no magic gear" rule -- as soon as magic weapons are in, Stoneskin is useless, but not Barb DR. If magic gear is in the game, we have to think of something else.

Great build, stoneskin is huge as well as this competes with the barbarians damage reduction and is more useful than haste is, for competing concentration spells. And mirror image will save a lot of hits from landing and throwing up the shield spell for +5 as a reaction is great as well. But will he run out of spell slots. But your build advice is spot on and I might lean on polearm master just for the bonus action attack and use a lot shield spells and I would actually forget GWM as I just want hits that will land. HAM is actually helpful here too.

My build is actually weird. It involves actually a half orc champion til 18th level and 2 levels of rogue for expertise in athletics and acrobatics and cunning action. I took for feats defensive duelist, and though I'm a strength build I use a rapier and shield. I also took athletics, for the 5 feet of movement to get out of prone quicker. And then I took shield master. And the rest in strength and con for 20 in each. It barely works out feat wise and you end up with 15 in dexterity needed for initiative which I should win once in a blue moon and 8's in wis, dex, chr.

Now expertise is important in athletics to get some use of the bonus action out of shield master but retain that +2 AC. Defensive duelist is a free poor man's shield spell but gives me 1d8+5 with the rapier, so once a turn I'll get some extra defense. Cunning action is used in the hopes of hitting and then disengaging away a little and when the barbarian gives chase I'll pick up AoO's as he comes back in. He could always take the sentinel feat and I would give up an ASI in con for mobile.

18 champion for survivor, I'll need hit points and grab defensive style and duelist for 1d8 +5+2. For me it is about attrition. When the barbarian comes out of rage, my shieldmaster bonus shove now is up against his basically 24 strength save because of indomitable might, but without advantage. If I knock him down and win initiative that next round, then I action surge with advantage if he hasn't moved yet, but more than likely he will have movement left over because he's just standing there and clobbering me.

It will be tough drag down fight to be sure.

[Firechanter]

Great build, stoneskin is huge as well as this competes with the barbarians damage reduction and is more useful than haste is, for competing concentration spells. And mirror image will save a lot of hits from landing and throwing up the shield spell for +5 as a reaction is great as well. But will he run out of spell slots. But your build advice is spot on and I might lean on polearm master just for the bonus action attack and use a lot shield spells and I would actually forget GWM as I just want hits that will land. HAM is actually helpful here too.

Yeah, GWM is not that essential actually. As for spell slots, a handful of them will suffice -- the Fighter has essentially the same amount of Hitpoints but has higher DPR, so technically he doesn't need any spellslots as long as Stoneskin is still up. And for that matter, even if a Crit should get through, for an expected ~44 damage, that doesn't even auto-wreck Concentration, we still have a 50% chance to save. But again, thanks to Lucky we won't need to take that chance.

At first I was also a bit worried about the Barbarian resorting to Grapple, but then I realized that in 5E, being Grappled doesn't really prevent you from anything except moving, and actually the Grappled character can still use a Greatsword whereas the Grappler cannot, because he needs a free hand. So the Barb would kinda be shooting his own foot.


My build is actually weird. It involves actually a half orc champion til 18th level and 2 levels of rogue for expertise in athletics and acrobatics and cunning action. I took for feats defensive duelist, and though I'm a strength build I use a rapier and shield. I also took athletics, for the 5 feet of movement to get out of prone quicker. And then I took shield master. And the rest in strength and con for 20 in each. It barely works out feat wise and you end up with 15 in dexterity needed for initiative which I should win once in a blue moon and 8's in wis, dex, chr.

Now expertise is important in athletics to get some use of the bonus action out of shield master but retain that +2 AC. Defensive duelist is a free poor man's shield spell but gives me 1d8+5 with the rapier, so once a turn I'll get some extra defense. Cunning action is used in the hopes of hitting and then disengaging away a little and when the barbarian gives chase I'll pick up AoO's as he comes back in. He could always take the sentinel feat and I would give up an ASI in con for mobile.



Have you done the math? Expertise is certainly good to have, and with Shield Master you'd compensate the lost 4th attack. (Conversely, Shield Master without Expertise would make no sense in this scenario.)
I don't really see how you are hoping to generate AoOs with a rapier. You'd need a Glaive and Polearm Master. Sentinel would also do absolutely nothing for you - it won't be the Barbarian trying to Disengage. As it stands,
As for Defensive Duelist -- yeah, it's a free +6AC against one attack per round, so let's check it out in direct toe-to-toe:
Attack +13 vs AC20/26 = 0,7 + 0,4 = 1,1 hits per round --> 19,25 DPR (not using Reckless) if he can reach you.
Your DPR in toe-to-toe fight would be, at +11 vs 19: 3x (11,5/2)* 0,65 = 11 DPR --> you'd be losing the damage race fast, at least for the first half of your HP.

So you basically want to reduce his Movement by knocking him over, so that he can't hit you back in at least some of the rounds.
You can use your Bonus Action Shove every round, but still you're up against his (+13 / Advantage, Min 24) with your +17. ATM I'm not sure what the odds are, I'll have to see if I can do the calculations. As a rough assumption, I'd say you have about 30% chance (but this is just a wild guess at this moment) each time.

If you move smartly, dance like a fly, bite like a mosquito, you reduce his DPR by 30% (to ~13,5), while increasing your own to 15,75 (due to Advantage). Crits not included on both sides.

Also, when your Survivor Ability kicks in, you effectively further reduce his DPR by 10. So now things are looking up. Actually, even if you don't use Shove at all (or can't prevent him from attack you every round), it might just be enough. But yeah, the fight would drag on forever.

[djreynolds]

You know you're right. I can only get the AoO if he's trying to leave my space or with polearm master if he is encroaching. Brain fart, I was thinking if I left I could snag one as he came back to me but it "only" works with polearm master and glaive.

I need that shield, though you know cunning action disengage could work with polearm master as I escape and he gives chase then. I could drop the shield master then and just use cunning action bonus to disengage and force him back to me. This could actually work better for the EK who's shield spell will last a round and you just do this disengagae in the middle of your attacks. But does casting the shield spell eat up my reaction for an AoO? You still have stoneskin.

Still the Champion build is still valid with the rapier and defensive duelist and shield master, so I could lose the cunning action of the 2nd level rogue and just take the 1 level for expertise and squeeze in another feat such as toughness or HAM. I still think the expertise is huge versus the 4th attack just for the chance to prone the barbarian here and again is big. And survivor is a must.

Perhaps, I have heard charger can be used in conjunction with the dash of cunning action. I wonder.

[Mara]

A duelist EK with stoneskin, warcaster, and a shield should be able to win here. If you spend all other slots on shield that's 10 rounds of 25 AC. Action surge puts you ahead two rounds in DPR. You don't need int here. You will have 20 strength and 20 con with 3-4 feats. So Vhuman can grab heavy armor master/athlete and then 3 more feats. So warcaster toughness and grappler (for defense). I believe HAM applies after resistance so you should be good here. Your effective health is 528. +11 on concentration saves and advantage. 10 rounds of the barbar needing a 12 or better to-hit.

[djreynolds]

EK is a great build chassis. No doubt.

I'm still working on my champion 18/ rogue 2.

[MeeposFire]

Not sure about the hit chance here but is duelist the way to go? After resistance we are talking about 1 damage per hit which I am not sure is worth it. Defensive may help more depending on what the barb's hit chance is. Of course it is less exy but against a barb it might be the better option.

Oh wait I bet there is no magical equipment here and level 20 characters so defensive may not be worth it.

[Hudsonian]

A barbarian level 20 has rage that lasts 1 minute.

You have a point, but the other barbarian would have to stay out of range completely for 10 rounds.

Also, the builds would still be uneven toe to toe without frenzied rage. (Note: I say that based off of the completely ridiculous assumption of 1on1 combat without magical weapons and no spells. In a party I'd much rather have the totem barb by my side because of the bonuses I get just from his presence.)

[Firechanter]

How many Items of the different rarity levels can actual level 20 characters reasonably be expected to have? And which ones, considering there is no MagicMart?

[djreynolds]

I know this is a team sport, and the wizard owes me one wish after 19 levels of saving his bacon. But this is just hypothetical.

The barbarian's offense is his defense. I don't understand it, but winning with a champion or battle master is more work.

[Vogonjeltz]

See the build I posted, Sketchy the Wine-Tempter. He has 20 int and uses magic to trick the barbarian into drinking lots of Torpor poison, then beats him senseless once he's incapacitated. The tactic has like a 98% chance of working because the barbarian is so bad at wisdom saves.

How is this thread still going on? We covered by page 2 that anyone with a thing that targets Wisdom saves is going to wreck the Barbarian.

[Firechanter]

In the meantime, we have switched to a different Barbarian build that actually did not dump Wis, and bought Resilient(Wis) for a total +8 Wis Save. So now we're trying to wreck that one.

[Mara]

Wouldn't a monk with empty body just kind of wreck face here?

She would be resistant to all damage and have advantage on all attacks plus being invisible cancels out reckless attack.

She has 5 minutes to kill the barbarian so 150d10+250

[Firechanter]

Wouldn't a monk with empty body just kind of wreck face here?

She would be resistant to all damage and have advantage on all attacks plus being invisible cancels out reckless attack.

Spontaneous reaction:
http://www.polyvore.com/cgi/img-thing?.out=jpg&size=l&tid=50162759

Good idea, but let's see how far it will really take her.
A Monk that level will have AC20 and, at best, 163HP. Martial Arts gives her a total of 3 attacks per round in melee.

The Monk attacks with Advantage (due to being Invisible), so +11A vs AC19 -> 88% Hit Chance per attack, d10+5 x3, for an average 13,9 DPR (after Damage Resistance).
The Barb attacks normally (Reckless and Invis cancel out), so +13 vs AC20 -> 70% Hit Chance per attack, d12+11 x2, for an average 12,25DPR (after DR)

So things are still looking bleak for the Monk - she's doing a bit more damage than she receives, but the Barb has 75% more HP.

What I don't know off hand: do the Martial Arts bonuses also count for ranged (thrown) attacks? If yes, she could forgo the bonus attack and slowly whittle him down, provided she has a big bag of 100 daggers or whatever. Then she could throw from 20' and then change position, potentially making it very hard for the Barb to track the square she end her turn in. But here things are getting situational again -- like, can the Barb track her via noise (Perception) or, well, tracks on the ground (Survival)? I'd rather not think too hard about that. ^^

[JNAProductions]

The monk also has Quivering Palm.

[Firechanter]

Against what, a +13 Save? I wouldn't bank on that.

[SharkForce]

Against what, a +13 Save? I wouldn't bank on that.

for DC 19, you're failing that save about one in four times. so long as the monk can survive long enough, it isn't really all that improbable.

[JNAProductions]

It also does a LOT of damage on a successful save.

[Firechanter]

10d10 times 1/2 -> around 27 pts average.
And it eats through the Ki points you need to stay invisible... but granted, I suppose you could afford trying it twice or thrice.

It might just work, with a bit of luck, but it's far from failsafe. But I suppose that's how a duel between 2 like-levelled characters should be.

[djreynolds]

Open Hand can force the barbarian to take a dexterity save on their trip, that is where the monk must focus. Its cheesy like using "Vega" in Street Fighter but one area that could be focused on. And the barbarian will have advantage on that save because he can see the monk trying to trip him.

The eldritch knight is always a good build just because of spells. The battle master, which I personally love, will have a tough time because of indomitable might, and the champion will have to really abuse the survivor class feature to win but is possible but could take a year.

Its a tough fight to be sure, and it just shows how well made the barbarian is and with the Sword Coast Adventures coming out, is only going to get better.

But this is a fight in a fish bowl and hypothetical.

But I love the talk

[SharkForce]

the barbarian won't see the monk trying to trip him. the monk will be invisible.

[Firechanter]

That doesn't matter much. Invisible just means you attack with Disadvantage.

[SharkForce]

That doesn't matter much. Invisible just means you attack with Disadvantage.

that's a pretty big deal for starters (it cancels out the largest DPR boost the barbarian actually has), but the claim was made that the barbarian would have advantage on the save because he could see the trip attempt. my point is that the barbarian cannot in fact see the trip attempt, because the one doing the tripping is invisible, and whether you are aware of their location or not you still cannot see an invisible thing.

[Firechanter]

1. What is the Monk hoping to achieve by tripping the Barbarian? She already gets advantage on her attacks because she's invisible. The Barbarian's Reckless Advantage and Invis Disadvantage already cancel out; you can't stack Disadvantages.
2. Besides, nowhere in the rules does it say or even _remotely_ imply the Barb has to _see_ the source of the attack to get advantage on their saves. That's pure speculation and requires a DM ruling that definitely isn't RAW. After all, if you normally have to save against invisible attackers, you don't have Disad on the Save, either.

And for that matter, at the ACs in question, Advantage or not is not such a big deal for the Barbarian. Hitting AC20 with his +13 Attack would be 91% with Advantage or 70% without Advantage. Yes it is a difference, but not the end of the world, as long as the Barb can avoid getting actual Disad, which is the case.

[SharkForce]

1. What is the Monk hoping to achieve by tripping the Barbarian? She already gets advantage on her attacks because she's invisible. The Barbarian's Reckless Advantage and Invis Disadvantage already cancel out; you can't stack Disadvantages.
2. Besides, nowhere in the rules does it say or even _remotely_ imply the Barb has to _see_ the source of the attack to get advantage on their saves. That's pure speculation and requires a DM ruling that definitely isn't RAW. After all, if you normally have to save against invisible attackers, you don't have Disad on the Save, either.

And for that matter, at the ACs in question, Advantage or not is not such a big deal for the Barbarian. Hitting AC20 with his +13 Attack would be 91% with Advantage or 70% without Advantage. Yes it is a difference, but not the end of the world, as long as the Barb can avoid getting actual Disad, which is the case.

1) as i recall, taking away half the barbarian's movement was the goal. so that the barbarian can subsequently be kited.

2) actually, it very clearly goes well beyond implying the barbarian has to be able to see the threat. "you have advantage on dexterity saving throws against effects that you can see..." (from the barbarian's uncanny dodge ability, bolding mine) very clearly indicates you must be able to see the effect to get advantage on your saving throws. it even elaborates that you cannot benefit from the ability at all if you are blind. if you cannot see the trip attack (and regardless of whether you are aware of the invisible monk's location or not, you still cannot see the monk or the trip attack), you do not get advantage on your saving throw against it.

[Firechanter]

You're still strong whether you can see anything or not. The description of Invis says nothing about forcing Disad on Saves either. UD applies to DEX Saves which is an entirely different story. You are just making rules up.

[djreynolds]

The champions survivor feature might be the key. Its just the barbarian with unlimited rage is relentless. Obviously you'd tweak your barbarian vs an eldritch knight, paladin, etc. Resistance is just too powerful. Be nice if critical hits were not affected by it but oh well.

My champion has three critical hits to his name, and he is level 10. I'm not kidding, it's sad. One of them I was not even there, my kid was playing my character while I was sick in the car. The first was on a goblin, it was dead by the first strike.

[Mara]

I submit ele monk with mist stance. She uses quivering palm until she has 6 ki left then she flies up with a parachute/kite/glider using gust of wind. Then she uses mist stance to short rest out of range for an hour to get all her ki back and then repeat the previous tactic.

She needs the mobile feat to avoid OAs while she is delivering QPs. Ideally she should only gets attacked by javelins and only when she is using actions to use QP.

Even if he passes every save eventually he'll be knocked to 0.

[Firechanter]

If we start allowing 20th century items that are not on the PHB equipment list, that opens up all kinds of shenanigans. The Barb might just get on his Zeppelin and shoot down the Monk with rockets.

[Mara]

If we start allowing 20th century items that are not on the PHB equipment list, that opens up all kinds of shenanigans. The Barb might just get on his Zeppelin and shoot down the Monk with rockets.
Kites were flown by 549AD.

[SharkForce]

You're still strong whether you can see anything or not. The description of Invis says nothing about forcing Disad on Saves either. UD applies to DEX Saves which is an entirely different story. You are just making rules up.

no, you just haven't taken the time to read and understand what you're even talking about before you start telling other people they're wrong.

the statement was made that the (open hand) monk could force dexterity checks but that the barbarian would have advantage because he could see it (implying uncanny dodge was the source), as that is the only source of advantage the barbarian has for dex saves and also the only reason to mention being able to see the attack as a requirement.

all of this is exactly in line with my statements.

[Firechanter]

Kites were flown by 549AD.

Carrying people? This I highly doubt.
But show me the page number with at least a price tag in the PHB and I will concede.




the statement was made that the (open hand) monk could force dexterity checks but that the barbarian would have advantage because he could see it (implying uncanny dodge was the source), as that is the only source of advantage the barbarian has for dex saves and also the only reason to mention being able to see the attack as a requirement.


Oh! Dex Saves! I thought the monk was trying to shove the Barb with Athletics. I missed the Open Hand ability.

Yeah then you're right, the Barb doesn't get Adv on bis save.
However, he doesn't need to allow himself to be kited. He can also just get up and move 20' in the other direction (assuming plenty of open ground in the first place) and ready his action against the monk.

[JoeJ]

However, he doesn't need to allow himself to be kited. He can also just get up and move 20' in the other direction (assuming plenty of open ground in the first place) and ready his action against the monk.

How much open ground are we assuming? Barbarians aren't great at ranged combat.

[Firechanter]

That has never been established. But if we are talking about more confined quartiers, there'll be no kiting anyway.

[Mechaviking]

A half orc champion fighter can destroy the barbarian in 6 rounds(look at my second math post).

Also, math proved that power attacking is always a good idea regardless of the barbarians choice of reckless or not(again but first post).

That said, the EK supertank looks pretty cool and viable to boot :D

[recapdrake]

Personally I would submit rather than open hand monk, sun soul monk. Talk about kiting, at level 20 your movement speed is 70 (if you take variant human and...may the silver flame have mercy on my soul for saying this but if you take mobile with your bonus feat) and you can just blast the barbarian down with no resistance ki blast damage

[djreynolds]

How much open ground are we assuming? Barbarians aren't great at ranged combat.

Barbarians will have an adequate dexterity, 16 at least. So they can fight from range with effect. The area is hypothetical. But remember a barbarian can run at 40, and can dash and dash and have resistance to damage. They can lay prone when needed, "I'm up, they see me, I'm down." Good old infantry tactics. Ranged is a good way to fight a barbarian, but what is your archer's back-up for when the barbarian catches up to you.

I didn't include a space. I'm not forcing you to go toe-to-toe with a barbarian or stopping you.

[JoeJ]

Barbarians will have an adequate dexterity, 16 at least. So they can fight from range with effect. The area is hypothetical. But remember a barbarian can run at 40, and can dash and dash and have resistance to damage. They can lay prone when needed, "I'm up, they see me, I'm down." Good old infantry tactics. Ranged is a good way to fight a barbarian, but what is your archer's back-up for when the barbarian catches up to you.

I didn't include a space. I'm not forcing you to go toe-to-toe with a barbarian or stopping you.

No backup is needed. Rogue 2/Champion Fighter 18 with Dex 20, archery style, sharpshooter, and a longbow. Starting at maximum range, which is 600'. He can move 60' per round and still get his full three attacks. If the barbarian dashes he can still only move 80', so it will take him 30 rounds to catch up. Even with resistance, the barbarian is dead. If he lies prone then he's not getting any closer. If the barbarian flees he can escape, but he's still lost the fight.

[djreynolds]

No backup is needed. Rogue 2/Champion Fighter 18 with Dex 20, archery style, sharpshooter, and a longbow. Starting at maximum range, which is 600'. He can move 60' per round and still get his full three attacks. If the barbarian dashes he can still only move 80', so it will take him 30 rounds to catch up. Even with resistance, the barbarian is dead. If he lies prone then he's not getting any closer. If the barbarian flees he can escape, but he's still lost the fight.

My build focuses on that rogue2 champion 18, but I use a shield, rapier and defensive duelist, athletics feat, and shield master. I have expertise in athletics and maxed out strength and con. I took athlete feat, crazy, but I'm sure I'll be getting up a lot. My dex is actually high, but I'm using plate anyhow. The whole idea is to find time to stick and move, use my bonus action to disengage or shove with shield master, "if" I can prone him I action surge then. Otherwise I hope to disengage and regenerate with survivor and land critical hits and nibble away at his monstrous hit points and damage resistance.

[Malifice]

The champions survivor feature might be the key. Its just the barbarian with unlimited rage is relentless. Obviously you'd tweak your barbarian vs an eldritch knight, paladin, etc. Resistance is just too powerful. Be nice if critical hits were not affected by it but oh well.

My champion has three critical hits to his name, and he is level 10. I'm not kidding, it's sad. One of them I was not even there, my kid was playing my character while I was sick in the car. The first was on a goblin, it was dead by the first strike.

Dip Champion 3 for 19-20.

Your crit chance (factoring in advantage/ reckless) is 19.1% with every single attack. Your chance of a nat 20 with advantage is 9.8%.

On a great axe using half orc barbarian, who routinely reckelessly attacks, Champ 3 is totally worth it.

A crit triggers your GWM extra attack(assuming you have it), and a bucketload of extra d12 from the crit (at Half orc barb 17, an extra +5d12)

Taking GWS (to re-roll the 1 and 2's on your axe d12), gaining action surge and second wind is all just added gravy.

[djreynolds]

Dip Champion 3 for 19-20.

Your crit chance (factoring in advantage/ reckless) is 19.1% with every single attack. Your chance of a nat 20 with advantage is 9.8%.

On a great axe using half orc barbarian, who routinely reckelessly attacks, Champ 3 is totally worth it.

A crit triggers your GWM extra attack(assuming you have it), and a bucketload of extra d12 from the crit (at Half orc barb 17, an extra +5d12)

Taking GWS (to re-roll the 1 and 2's on your axe d12), gaining action surge and second wind is all just added gravy.

Definitely a viable addition to any build.