How would a party face function in combat?

[Masakan]

wow 2 threads in less than 5 mins...but i just needed to get some insight on this...if someone is the party face. I.E the diplomat, how would they function or contribute in combat?

[ComaVision]

There's not really a limit on the ways. Lots of classes use Charisma as a spellcasting stat, most classes with lots of skill points have combat abilities. I recently played a DFI bard with a dip in marshal that was the party face.

[Masakan]

There's not really a limit on the ways. Lots of classes use Charisma as a spellcasting stat, most classes with lots of skill points have combat abilities. I recently played a DFI bard with a dip in marshal that was the party face.
So it really just depends on how you wanna go about it.

[Red Fel]

There's not really a limit on the ways. Lots of classes use Charisma as a spellcasting stat, most classes with lots of skill points have combat abilities. I recently played a DFI bard with a dip in marshal that was the party face.

This.

The fact is, if you designed a character to be the social animal party face and nothing else, you done goofed. It's fine in a socially-oriented campaign, but D&D/PF is primarily a combat engine, and if you can't function in combat and combat is a regular occurrence, you're dead weight. Now, some Diplomancers manage to use social rolls to prevent combat, and that's fine, but where it can't be prevented, you'd better have a backup plan.

And as ComaVision mentions, many classes do. There are precious few classes for whom "Roll Diplomacy" is their only class feature. Bards can be faces and a dozen other things. Sorcerers and Beguilers can be faces while still laughing at the non-caster classes. Paladins can be faces and intercept arrows on behalf of the party, and if they'd do it promptly and terminally I'd much appreciate it.

But if you design a character to do a single thing to the exclusion of all others - whether it's social rolls or anything else - you really don't have room to complain if that thing doesn't come up as often as you'd like.

[Strigon]

So it really just depends on how you wanna go about it.

Exactly.
But, in general, you won't be a frontline combatant; you'll stay out of the way of your tougher foes, and look for places where you can use your special abilities. The 2 most common face classes are Bard and Rogue; as a Rogue, you'll want to stick to the side, flank the opponents and use your sneak attacks for extra damage.
As a bard, you'll mostly want to use buffs, but they're flexible enough that that won't be your only option.

Basically, just look at the classes that help you be a party face; most of the classes have very obvious methods of helping in combat.

[Deophaun]

The fact is, if you designed a character to be the social animal party face and nothing else, you done goofed.

A Dragonfire Adept with the baleful geas invocation might be able to pull it off.

[Masakan]

Exactly.
But, in general, you won't be a frontline combatant; you'll stay out of the way of your tougher foes, and look for places where you can use your special abilities. The 2 most common face classes are Bard and Rogue; as a Rogue, you'll want to stick to the side, flank the opponents and use your sneak attacks for extra damage.
As a bard, you'll mostly want to use buffs, but they're flexible enough that that won't be your only option.

Basically, just look at the classes that help you be a party face; most of the classes have very obvious methods of helping in combat.

I figured as much....is it possible to be a skirmisher as the party face?

[ComaVision]

I figured as much....is it possible to be a skirmisher as the party face?

Certainly. I actually can't think of any role that couldn't be done in addition to party face.

[Ruethgar]

I made a party face recently with two levels of ghost and two Dungeoncrasher Commander level so he can always smash with his force of personality. Baring the that, he also dipped Marshal and can bolster moral via Commander, planning on Bard and is getting three Leadership feats.

[Red Fel]

A Dragonfire Adept with the baleful geas invocation might be able to pull it off.

Eh, that's not so much "I'm the party face" as "I'm Lelouch vi Britannia." It's not so much "I roll Diplomacy" as "I am the Master, you will obey me." It's not so much a neat trick as it is disgustingly awesome and why didn't I think of this sooner.

Ahem.


I figured as much....is it possible to be a skirmisher as the party face?

Abso-bloody-lutely. "Party face" isn't a class, it doesn't require a particular feat or spell or alignment. It's a role, and it's one that anybody with skill ranks and passable Charisma can perform. Your Fighter can be the party face. Your Barbarian can be the party face. (In fact, Charisma is great to have on a Barbarian.) Heck, your Monk can be the party face - it's not like he's doing anything else productive, right?

And the role of party face can shift. While in the Elven Magic School, your High Elf Wizard can take the diplomatic lead, even if he dumped Cha in favor of Int. While in the Orc warcamp, your Orc Barbarian might want to take the lead, if only because they'll never listen to a sissy squishy Elf. While at the Royal Gala, your Rogue might take the lead, because after all, she's been preparing for this moment all her life. It can vary based on circumstance.

[Masakan]

Eh, that's not so much "I'm the party face" as "I'm Lelouch vi Britannia." It's not so much "I roll Diplomacy" as "I am the Master, you will obey me." It's not so much a neat trick as it is disgustingly awesome and why didn't I think of this sooner.

Ahem.



Abso-bloody-lutely. "Party face" isn't a class, it doesn't require a particular feat or spell or alignment. It's a role, and it's one that anybody with skill ranks and passable Charisma can perform. Your Fighter can be the party face. Your Barbarian can be the party face. (In fact, Charisma is great to have on a Barbarian.) Heck, your Monk can be the party face - it's not like he's doing anything else productive, right?

And the role of party face can shift. While in the Elven Magic School, your High Elf Wizard can take the diplomatic lead, even if he dumped Cha in favor of Int. While in the Orc warcamp, your Orc Barbarian might want to take the lead, if only because they'll never listen to a sissy squishy Elf. While at the Royal Gala, your Rogue might take the lead, because after all, she's been preparing for this moment all her life. It can vary based on circumstance.

To be fair Lelouch is pretty charismatic in his own right, the geass just makes things easier.

[Cirrylius]

I recently played a DFI bard with a dip in marshal that was the party face.
I was just thinking about this build a few days ago. Out of curiosity, how well do they synergize/gestalt/optimize?

[ComaVision]

I was just thinking about this build a few days ago. Out of curiosity, how well do they synergize/gestalt/optimize?

The thing about Marshal is that you only need one level. Motivate Charisma means double Cha to Diplomacy, and the free Skill Focus (Diplomacy) doesn't hurt. I used the Chaos Music feat to avoid any damage to my bardic music progression but you wouldn't need that in gestalt. It's also more costly if you're focusing on spellcasting but I went in to Warblade.

[Masakan]

The thing about Marshal is that you only need one level. Motivate Charisma means double Cha to Diplomacy, and the free Skill Focus (Diplomacy) doesn't hurt. I used the Chaos Music feat to avoid any damage to my bardic music progression but you wouldn't need that in gestalt. It's also more costly if you're focusing on spellcasting but I went in to Warblade.

Chaos Music?

[ZamielVanWeber]

You may be able to party face as well just by doing it. My DM uses modified diplomacy rules so actual role playing as part of diplomacy is important.

[Cirrylius]

The thing about Marshal is that you only need one level. Motivate Charisma means double Cha to Diplomacy, and the free Skill Focus (Diplomacy) doesn't hurt.

Heh. Maybe put your ranks into Perform (Barking Orders) if you prefer the martial look :smallbiggrin:

[ComaVision]

Chaos Music?

It's essentially Practiced Spellcaster for Bardic Music.

[Vhaidara]

Certainly. I actually can't think of any role that couldn't be done in addition to party face.

Honestly, skills in general are just not defining of a character. My Bloodrager in Pathfinder Society functions not only as a full on melee beatstick, but is also the party face half the time (good Cha, a level enough head, and some basic training in the relevant skills), AND is a backup library (1 rank in each Knowledge, going to be supplemented by a dip into Lore Oracle for the class skill bonus).

Also, I would like to offer the possibility of: nothing useful! One of the most enjoyable characters I ever played was an gnome bard. He would diplomance around, but when the fight started, he would just start singing about the past exploits of his companions (highly embellished). And occasionally shoot a crossbow he had no real training with.

Best part was that he got a reputation, to the point that one boss literally Leap Attacked over our frontline to gib me in round 1. He was using merciful weapons (GM felt dirty using an ubercharger on the party, since I was the highest OP), but it put him in a position to be flanked by EVERYONE ELSE. So I guess I was the backup tank.

[Eisfalken]

If the party face is good at skill-based deception, lean heavy on Bluff (to feint in combat), Intimidate (to demoralize opponents), and Sense Motive (to 'read' the enemy intentions).

If you're doing physical combat, you want to use lots of tricky attacks that impose penalties, or loads of sneak attack and skirmish to get bonus damage. If you do spellcasting, well... you probably have pretty good bonus spells if your Cha-based, and they're harder to resist too.

Check out the skill tricks in Complete Scoundrel; you can make a mighty effective melee guy with some of those Bluff tricks. Get some feats that key off of feinting and/or demoralizing folks, and you should do very nice.

[Ashtagon]

Sorcerer spams charm person?

[Grod_The_Giant]

Honestly, skills in general are just not defining of a character.
Agreed. "Party face" really just means "invested a couple points in social skills." . I mean, there are spells and items and even the odd feat that can make you better, but you don't really need them. Just talk and make the odd skill check when the DM remembers dice.

Or I guess you could work on adding Charisma to various things- maybe take Charming the Arrow and a Battle Dancer dip or something.

[Flickerdart]

Any buffoon can be a party face and also fight. But it takes a little bit of effort to fight as the party face - either using your faceness as part of your fighting, or using fighting to benefit others' opinions of your party. Ideally, both at once.

The most obvious application of this is Intimidate - Trophy Collector lets battles directly affect how good your check is later, and has lots of in-combat uses. The spells sadism and masochism boost your checks based on damage taken and received respectively. So you could, for example, fireball 6 orcs for 20 damage each, and in the next round enjoy a +12 to your Intimidate as you convince their chief to back down.

[mabriss lethe]

As for a Combat Face: I love at least dipping Binder for Naberius