Dragonborn Human/Elf

[SangoProduction]

OK. What does a human give up when becoming a dragon born.

What about the Elf?

I am caught between the two and can't decide!.....mostly because I can't find that darned section where it specifically spells out what types of stuff you lose from your previous race.

[Rubik]

OK. What does a human give up when becoming a dragon born.

What about the Elf?

I am caught between the two and can't decide!.....mostly because I can't find that darned section where it specifically spells out what types of stuff you lose from your previous race.Humans and elves both lose all of their racial traits except their type, subtype, and (for the elf) ability adjustments.

Not a good trade-off. There are much better choices for the dragonborn template, such as warforged or lesser aasimar/tiefling.

[SangoProduction]

Humans and elves both lose all of their racial traits except their type, subtype, and (for the elf) ability adjustments.

Not a good trade-off. There are much better choices for the dragonborn template, such as warforged or lesser aasimar/tiefling.

OK, thanks.

[Rubik]

OK, thanks.You still count as your previous race for qualifying for feats, PrCs, and racial options, so a dragonborn human is still human and still qualifies for Able Learner and the chameleon PrC, for instance. And since most of a warforged's racial abilities are gained from the living construct subtype, they keep all of those abilities even when becoming dragonborn. The only things a warforged loses are its slam attack and armor plating, both of which can be replaced with a feat, if you want them. That's why warforged are one of the best races to take the dragonborn template.

[BowStreetRunner]

When someone becomes Dragonborn they lose almost everything from their former race. If you are thinking about creating a Dragonborn character, the better question to ask is what does the Dragonborn gain from their former race.

Type and Subtype: as a Dragonborn keeps its original Type and Subtype, merely adding the Dragonblood subtype, the qualities that come from Type and Subtype are worth considering. However, before you go changing a Warforged into a Dragonborn, make sure you consult your DM. There is a passage on page 8 of RoD that states "Each one enters the world as a halfling, an elf, a human, or a member of some other humanoid race with all that race’s propensities and traits." In the racial traits section it also lists them as Humanoids with the Dragonblood subtype. Even if your DM doesn't allow you to choose a non-humanoid base creature though, there are subtypes like Aquatic that confer useful abilities.
Racial Hit Dice: these are kept too, although I haven't seen a build that really leveraged this aspect of the race.
Ability Modifiers: The Dragonborn confers +2 CON and -2 DEX, but combined with the original modifiers you can come up with some combinations that are otherwise hard to find. For instance, a Spellscale-Dragonborn has +2 CHA, -2 DEX which is rare as most races with a CHA bonus have a CON penalty.
Size and Powerful Build: whether you are going for small or large sizes dragonborn, there are plenty of options out there. Powerful build may be desirable too, but you keep your LA so that is a tradeoff.
Speed: this includes all modes of movement, so races with a fly, swim, climb, or other speed keep those.
Languages: not a huge benefit, but sometimes it helps for a prerequisite or something.
Favored Class: if your DM is still enforcing multiclass XP penalties, this can be a nice bonus.
Level Adjustment: unfortunately this kills a lot of combinations. Since many of the features that caused the race to get a LA are lost, you may be able to convince your DM to waive this in some cases though.
That's it, everything else you lose.

[SangoProduction]

Hmm....so they lose proficiency with those martial weapons? That's odd.

[Thurbane]

I have previously pondered for a Dragonborn Human, there may be certain feats that you take as your Human bonus feat, that will still bestow some kind of benefit even after they are lost when you take Dragonborn.

In my game, for example, I'd allow a character to retain the 5 skill points from Open Minded. Whether or not that is RAW is highly debatable.

...but as others have said, there are better candidates for Dragonborn than Elf or Human.

[Troacctid]

Elves are actually a great candidate for Dragonborn, since their racial abilities are so crappy that you're not really giving much up, and the resulting stat adjustments tend to be favorable. For instance, Dragonborn Gray Elf has -2 Str, +2 Int. That's a fantastic set of racial adjustments for an Int-based caster. Alternately, Dragonborn Fire Elf is +2 Int, -2 Cha, which is also fantastic for a Wizard. At the same time, you're also getting your choice of natural flight, a breath weapon to help you out at low levels (Entangling Exhalation makes you a monster at low levels if you can afford the feat), or, if you liked the Elf's enhanced senses, you can get them back with interest. Any of those three is easily superior to what you'd normally get as an elf.

I'd estimate that at least 50% of my elf characters go Dragonborn, probably more. Unless you need the weapon proficiencies for something, there's not much reason not to.

Human is also solid for Dragonborn if you have an extra feat from your class that you don't want. (Remember that when a human undergoes the rite of rebirth, they don't necessarily lose the same feat they chose as their human bonus feat--they can pick any feat to give up.) Human Dragonborn is excellent for a Dragonfire Adept, for example, since instead of losing your human bonus feat, you just lose Dragontouched, which wasn't doing anything anyway.


Hmm....so they lose proficiency with those martial weapons? That's odd.

This can be beneficial, as it allows you to lose feat prerequisites, effectively "delaying" feats for a later level. Say you're a Desert Elf Warlock and you want your first three feats to be Obtain Familiar, Celestial Familiar, and Extra Invocation. Well, that's a problem, because none of those feats can be taken at 1st level. Luckily, all you have to do is take Bladebearer of the Valenar as your 1st level feat, Obtain Familiar as your 3rd level feat, then become a Dragonborn afterwards. When you lose proficiency with the scimitar, you lose the prerequisite for Bladebearer of the Valenar, and you replace it with a new feat. Since you now qualify for Celestial Familiar, boom, swap in that instead, and you've effectively used your 1st level feat slot for a 3rd level feat.

[Rubik]

Elves are actually a great candidate for Dragonborn, since their racial abilities are so crappy that you're not really giving much up, and the resulting stat adjustments tend to be favorable. For instance, Dragonborn Gray Elf has -2 Str, +2 Int. That's a fantastic set of racial adjustments for an Int-based caster. Alternately, Dragonborn Fire Elf is +2 Int, -2 Cha, which is also fantastic for a Wizard. At the same time, you're also getting your choice of natural flight, a breath weapon to help you out at low levels (Entangling Exhalation makes you a monster at low levels if you can afford the feat), or, if you liked the Elf's enhanced senses, you can get them back with interest. Any of those three is easily superior to what you'd normally get as an elf.But I miss having those six bonus feats to DCFS later!


Human is also solid for Dragonborn if you have an extra feat from your class that you don't want. (Remember that when a human undergoes the rite of rebirth, they don't necessarily lose the same feat they chose as their human bonus feat--they can pick any feat to give up.) Human Dragonborn is excellent for a Dragonfire Adept, for example, since instead of losing your human bonus feat, you just lose Dragontouched, which wasn't doing anything anyway.You miss out on a lot of skill points, though. The only time I've ever felt like I had enough skill points, my Int was in the fifties, my hit dice were in the low thousands, and I literally didn't have enough skills to toss points into.


This can be beneficial, as it allows you to lose feat prerequisites, effectively "delaying" feats for a later level. Say you're a Desert Elf Warlock and you want your first three feats to be Obtain Familiar, Celestial Familiar, and Extra Invocation. Well, that's a problem, because none of those feats can be taken at 1st level. Luckily, all you have to do is take Bladebearer of the Valenar as your 1st level feat, Obtain Familiar as your 3rd level feat, then become a Dragonborn afterwards. When you lose proficiency with the scimitar, you lose the prerequisite for Bladebearer of the Valenar, and you replace it with a new feat. Since you now qualify for Celestial Familiar, boom, swap in that instead, and you've effectively used your 1st level feat slot for a 3rd level feat.That's clever. I'd never considering doing that. Maybe you're onto something.

Or maybe you could use DCFS, maybe?

[Darrin]

OK. What does a human give up when becoming a dragon born.


Mostly the bonus skill points. They also lose the human bonus feat, but if you read the text carefully, there's a way to mitigate that:



If your original race granted you a nonspecific bonus feat (such as the one gained by a human at 1st level), any feat can be lost, so long as it is not a prerequisite for another feat you have.


This means if you have a feat you gained as a class feature, you can lose that instead. So a human ranger 3 could lose either Track or Endurance and keep his human bonus feat.

There's also the option to trade one of your existing feats for Dragon Tail or Dragon Wings. The human ranger that lost Endurance, for example, could swap Track for Dragon Wings. If he takes the breath weapon option, he's one feat away (Improved Dragon Wings) from having the equivalent of the flight aspect as well.

Here's a list of classes and ACFs that grant bonus feats at low levels:


Archivist 1: Scribe Scroll
Artificer 1/2: Scribe Scroll, Brew Potion
Barbarian 1: Toughness/Improved Grapple/Great Fortitude (Bear Totem), Blind-Fight (Dragon Totem), Run (Lion Totem), Roofwalker (Cityscape ACF)
Bard 1: Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Bola Flail (Ghostwalk)
Bard 3: swap Inspire Competence for Soothe the Beast (ECS Music of Creation)
Beguiler 5: Silent Spell
Cleric 1: Various domains grant bonus feats, or go Cloistered and three Devotion feats to choose from.
Divine Mind 1: Wild Talent (yeah, very iffy)
Duskblade 2: Combat Casting
Dragonfire Adept 1: Dragontouched
Dragon Shaman 2: Skill Focus
Druid 1: Track (Simple Druid variant, Unearthed Arcana)
Druid 2: Sandskimmer (Sandstorm variant)
Druid 4: Heat Endurance (Sandstorm variant)
Druid 4: Strong Stomach ACF (Cityscape WE)
Favored Soul 3: Weapon Focus
Fighter 1: Exotic Shield Proficiency (Races of Stone variant rule)
Healer 2: Skill Focus
Hexblade 4: bonus feat
Knight 2: Mounted Combat
Marshall 1: Skill Focus
Monk 1/2: Yeah, let me know when that Stunning Fist thing ever actually works.
Paladin 4/8/11/14: Bonus Feat (Complete Champion, Holy Warrior ACF)
Psion 1: bonus feat
Ranger 1: Track
Ranger 3: Endurance
Ranger 4/8/11/14: Bonus Feat (Complete Champion, Champion of the Wild ACF)
Rogue 1/2: Fighter Bonus Feat variant (Unearthed Arcana)
Samurai 1: EWP Bastard Sword
Soulknife 1: Weapon Focus, Wild Talent
Sorcerer 1: Draconic Heritage (RotD sub level) or MWP/Weapon Focus (Stalwart Sorcerer ACF)
Swashbuckler 1: Weapon Finesse
Warblade 5: bonus feat
Warmage 7: Sudden Empower
Wizard 1: Scribe Scroll
Wu Jen 1: bonus feat




What about the Elf?


Elves lose their weapon proficiencies, immunity to sleep/paralysis, low-light vision, racial skill bonuses, and the auto-check on secret doors.

Most elves have a Con penalty and a Dex bonus, so Dragonborn tends to flatten out their ability scores. However, some sub-races have different ability score adjustments. Dragonborn results for:

Aquatic Elf (UA): +2 Con, -2 Int
Arctic/Desert Elf (UA): -2 Str, +2 Con
Savage Progression Drow (online (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040213a)): +2 Int
Fire Elf (UA): +2 Int, -2 Cha
Grey Elf (MM): -2 Str, +2 Int
Painted Elf (Sandstorm): +2 Con, -2 Int
Snow Elf (Frostburn): +2 Con, -2 Cha
Wild Elf (MM): +2 Con, -2 Int
Wood Elf (MM) +2 Str, -2 Int

[Nifft]

This means if you have a feat you gained as a class feature, you can lose that instead. So a human ranger 3 could lose either Track or Endurance and keep his human bonus feat.
That's a really important distinction, and it looks like it's the intended reading.

@SangoProduction - what class are you thinking about?

[Ruethgar]

Also note that all of the PHB classes, except Sorcerer, Wizard, and Monk, get at least one bonus feat from proficiency that is redundant with their class features and every non-PHB class gets one bonus feat that may or may not be redundant.

This means the aforementioned Human Ranger 3 can keep Track and Endurance and instead get rid of Shield and Light armor proficiency feats while still being proficient with shields and light armor via class features.

[BowStreetRunner]

Also note that all of the PHB classes, except Sorcerer, Wizard, and Monk, get at least one bonus feat from proficiency that is redundant with their class features and every non-PHB class gets one bonus feat that may or may not be redundant.

This means the aforementioned Human Ranger 3 can keep Track and Endurance and instead get rid of Shield and Light armor proficiency feats while still being proficient with shields and light armor via class features.

I'm not following your logic on how this is supposed to work.

[Ruethgar]

The special section of the armor and shield proficiency feats say that various classes get them as bonus feats, but those classes also have proficiency granted by their weapon and armor proficiency class features making the bonus proficiency feats completely redundant and pretty much only useful for DCS and Dragonborn.

So the Ranger gets Light Armor and Shield Proficiency twice, once from their proficiency class feature and once from getting the feats as bonus feats. Getting rid of the feats causes no loss in proficiency.

[Andezzar]

I don't either, proficiency with all simple and possibly martial weapons aren't feats but class features.

[BowStreetRunner]

The special section of the armor and shield proficiency feats say that various classes get them as bonus feats, but those classes also have proficiency granted by their weapon and armor proficiency class features making the bonus proficiency feats completely redundant and pretty much only useful for DCS and Dragonborn.

So the Ranger gets Light Armor and Shield Proficiency twice, once from their proficiency class feature and once from getting the feats as bonus feats. Getting rid of the feats causes no loss in proficiency.

I'm pretty sure the Proficiency class feature is how they get them as bonus feats. Just because it is mentioned in the feat section doesn't mean that is where the ability comes from. It is just referencing the Proficiency class features, not duplicating them.

In other words, just because the fact that you get a bonus feat is mentioned in two different places doesn't mean the feat is granted twice. Receiving it once from your class and once from your race, or once from a class and again from a prestige class would count. I would even consider that a multiclass Fighter/Paladin could give up his Heavy Armor proficiency from Fighter and keep it from Paladin. But under no circumstances would I accept the argument that since a Fighter's proficiency is mentioned under class features and again under the feat description that it would mean they have the same feat twice. Not at all.

[Ruethgar]

I'm pretty sure the Proficiency class feature is how they get them as bonus feats. Just because it is mentioned in the feat section doesn't mean that is where the ability comes from. It is just referencing the Proficiency class features, not duplicating them.
Except that none of the Proficiency class features say you get the proficiency feats as bonus feats, simply that you have proficiency. Were the proficiency class features to add the proficiency feats as you suggest, then Andezzar's concern would come into effect as all of the weapon proficiency feats would also become bonus feats. But by RAW, only the armor and shield feats are granted as bonus feats and do so separate from the proficiency class features.