Glide Speed 30

[SangoProduction]

On Dragonborn, in Races of the Dragon, takings the Wings allows you to glide at speed 30, and it says you can move 20 feet horizontally for every 5 feet you descend.

Now, what does this mean? Does this mean you can move 10 feet down, and only move 30 feet horizontally, because of the glide speed, or does this mean you can move 30 feet down, if you find a 3 story building to leap off of, and race across the town, moving 100 feet per second (actually, it would just be a single move action, so closer to 200 f/s, but still)?

[OldTrees1]

It means:
You have a Fly speed of 30ft with Average Maneuverability. (reference the fly rules for extra details like the cost to turn)

Except:
1) You can't gain altitude
2) You lose 5ft of altitude per 20ft of travel(rounded up)

So you can move
Move: 20ft forward/down and 5ft down
Move: 30ft forward/down and 10ft down
Double Move: 40ft forward/down and 10ft down
Double Move: 60ft forward/down and 15ft down

Most use the glide speed to travel forward since traveling down is not as valuable.

[SangoProduction]

It means:
You have a Fly speed of 30ft with Average Maneuverability. (reference the fly rules for extra details like the cost to turn)

Except:
1) You can't gain altitude
2) You lose 5ft of altitude per 20ft of travel(rounded up)

So you can move
Move: 20ft forward/down and 5ft down
Move: 30ft forward/down and 10ft down
Double Move: 40ft forward/down and 10ft down
Double Move: 60ft forward/down and 15ft down

Most use the glide speed to travel forward since traveling down is not as valuable.

That works, thanks.

[Andezzar]

Unfortunately it does not work that way. If you move 30 ft forward and 10 ft down you move about 31.6 ft which is more than the 30 ft allowed per move action. So have fun with the Pythagorean theorem to find out how much ground the dragonborn can mover per move action.

[LTwerewolf]

Unfortunately it does not work that way. If you move 30 ft forward and 10 ft down you move about 31.6 ft which is more than the 30 ft allowed per move action. So have fun with the Pythagorean theorem to find out how much ground the dragonborn can mover per move action.

It's a sure good thing the game doesn't work that way huh?

[Andezzar]

While OldTree1's houserule surely makes things easier, it is not covered by the rules. Speed does not have directionality. No matter in what direction a creature moves, it cannot cover more than its speed in a single move action.

[LTwerewolf]

And in d&d you round down to the first increment, just like everywhere in the entire game. It amuses me how many people try to make things way more complicated than they are. It's the exact reason diagonal rules exist. It's the same here, just in a 3d model.

[torrasque666]

While OldTree1's houserule surely makes things easier, it is not covered by the rules. Speed does not have directionality. No matter in what direction a creature moves, it cannot cover more than its speed in a single move action.
You wouldn't make someone who was falling only move their move speed every round, would you? Because then most people would never fall more than 30 ft a round, but the falling rules make this seem to happen instantaneously (ie, over the course of one round) or at 150 ft the first round and 300 all following ones. Seems odd when the fat slow guy who can only move at maybe 15 ft per round due to armor and flaws takes 2-4 rounds to fall off a 60ft cliff while the quick agile guy moving at 60ft a round (say.... 40ft racial, barbarian dip and quick trait) falls that same distance in 1 round. I'll say this again, fat guy falls 60 ft in 12-24 seconds, skinny guy falls 60 ft in 6. Doesn't make sense, even with magic and all that.

[Andezzar]

And in d&d you round down to the first increment, just like everywhere in the entire game. It amuses me how many people try to make things way more complicated than they are. It's the exact reason diagonal rules exist. It's the same here, just in a 3d model.You round down to the next integer. 31 ft still is more than 30 ft.


You wouldn't make someone who was falling only move their move speed every round, would you? Because then most people would never fall more than 30 ft a round, but the falling rules make this seem to happen instantaneously (ie, over the course of one round) or at 150 ft the first round and 300 all following ones. Seems odd when the fat slow guy who can only move at maybe 15 ft per round due to armor and flaws takes 2-4 rounds to fall off a 60ft cliff while the quick agile guy moving at 60ft a round (say.... 40ft racial, barbarian dip and quick trait) falls that same distance in 1 round. I'll say this again, fat guy falls 60 ft in 12-24 seconds, skinny guy falls 60 ft in 6. Doesn't make sense, even with magic and all that.Falling has nothing to do with it. A gliding character is not falling, he is making a controlled descent. That descent cannot cover more than 30 ft. Also falling takes place over the whole round, gliding only on the character's turn.

[LTwerewolf]

You ignored the part about how the game has already dictated how diagonal movement works, still making you incorrect. Movement is not dictated by 1 ft movement, but by 5 ft movement. Otherwise you would have problems when running into "move half your move speed" effect which are all over the place. It's not a problem there nor is it one here.

[Andezzar]

If you use the rules for diagonal movement, you still come to the same conclusion: you cannnot move 30 ft forward and 10 ft down/left/right with a 30 ft speed:



S
5
10









15









25
30
E35


A creatures is in the starting Square (S), the End Square (E) is 30 ft to the right and 10 ft down. As you can see it takes 35 ft of movement to get there. That is not possible with a speed of 30ft and one move action.

[OldTrees1]

If you use the rules for diagonal movement, you still come to the same conclusion: you cannnot move 30 ft forward and 10 ft down/left/right with a 30 ft speed:



S
5
10









15









25
30
E35


A creatures is in the starting Square (S), the End Square (E) is 30 ft to the right and 10 ft down. As you can see it takes 35 ft of movement to get there. That is not possible with a speed of 30ft and one move action.

You grok movement correctly, but you are missing that the altitude loss from Gliding is in addition to its 30ft movement speed. It really is Fly 30ft and also lose some altitude.

PS: Also remember that flying down doubles speed and flying up(not permissible for gliding) halves speed for most maneuverabilities. This tidbit almost forces you to stay locked to the 5ft grid otherwise you have weirdness like "Fly up at 45 degrees for 1 foot and Fly down at 1 degree for double your speed = roughly double speed horizontally".



S
5/30
10/30









25/60









35/60
22.5/30
E27.5/30

[Andezzar]

You grok movement correctly, but you are missing that the altitude loss from Gliding is in addition to its 30ft movement speed. It really is Fly 30ft and also lose some altitude.Please show me where it says that the downward component of the movement is free. I get the de facto free 5ft down because you double only every second diagonal movement, but the description of the wings aspect does not say that the downward movement generally is free.


PS: Also remember that flying down doubles speed and flying up(not permissible for gliding) halves speed for most maneuverabilities. This tidbit almost forces you to stay locked to the 5ft grid otherwise you have weirdness like "Fly up at 45 degrees for 1 foot and Fly down at 1 degree for double your speed = roughly double speed horizontally".



S
5/30
10/30









25/60









35/60
22.5/30
E27.5/30


Where do you get the 22.5 feat from? in the square before it you have already traveled 35 ft. That makes no sense. Also note that the speed is doubled when you fly down, not when you fly diagonally.

The flying rules are pretty much a mess.

[OldTrees1]

Please show me where it says that the downward component of the movement is free. I get the de facto free 5ft down because you double only every second diagonal movement, but the description of the wings aspect does not say that the downward movement generally is free.

The description of the Wings aspect describes your Speed and Maneuverability (as per Fly 30ft Average), and only then adds on the extra effect of the altitude decline per movement used. It does not specify the altitude decline per movement used is part of the movement used for determining the altitude decline per movement used. Thus RAW it is not. Furthermore it makes no sense to have something calculated from itself and thus it is not RAI either.

I will quote the book later(AFB).


Where do you get the 22.5 feat from? in the square before it you have already traveled 35 ft. That makes no sense. Also note that the speed is doubled when you fly down, not when you fly diagonally.

The flying rules are pretty much a mess.

When flying down (including down diagonally) the Fly rules double your movement speed. Hence the 25/60 and 35/60. Then when you continue horizontally you are back to normal movement speed so 5ft more of horizontal would be 35/60 + 5/30 = 22.5/30.

[Curmudgeon]

The description of the Wings aspect describes your Speed and Maneuverability (as per Fly 30ft Average), and only then adds on the extra effect of the altitude decline per movement used. It does not specify the altitude decline per movement used is part of the movement used for determining the altitude decline per movement used. Thus RAW it is not.
Problems:

Gliding does not grant a Fly speed.
If vertical movement is not part of your movement, then you would have no control over when it happens. If it is under your control, it's part of your 30' movement.

[legomaster00156]

Far as I'm aware, there actually are no official rules on "glide speeds", so everyone is basically guessing what it means.

[OldTrees1]

Problems:

Gliding does not grant a Fly speed.
If vertical movement is not part of your movement, then you would have no control over when it happens. If it is under your control, it's part of your 30' movement.

Problems:

I never said it gave a Fly speed(except in my linguistic shorthand in post #2), I said it defines Glide speed/maneuverability in reference to Fly speed rules with the addition of the involuntary altitude decline.
The ability defines when it happens(as triggered effects do) and does not grant you control over whether it happens or not. This does not require it to be part of the 30ft of the Glide Speed in the same manner other effects are not part of their causes.

[Andezzar]

The description of the Wings aspect describes your Speed and Maneuverability (as per Fly 30ft Average), and only then adds on the extra effect of the altitude decline per movement used. It does not specify the altitude decline per movement used is part of the movement used for determining the altitude decline per movement used.It does not say that it is free either. Going your full speed forward and a certain distance down violates the definition of speed (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/glossary&term=Glossary_dnd_speed&alpha=S). It only happens to work for descents equal to or smaller than 10 ft (or 5 if the doubling does not apply), because of the way diagonals are calculated. As soon as the descent is greater than 5 ft effectively it does not work.


When flying down (including down diagonally) the Fly rules double your movement speed. Hence the 25/60 and 35/60. Then when you continue horizontally you are back to normal movement speed so 5ft more of horizontal would be 35/60 + 5/30 = 22.5/30.How can you reduce your movement from 35 ft to 22.5 by moving a further 5 ft? That makes no sense.


The ability defines when it happens(as triggered effects do) and does not grant you control over whether it happens or not. This does not require it to be part of the 30ft of the Glide Speed in the same manner other effects are not part of their causes.
You have it backwards. The dragonborn (and other creatures with a glide speed) purposely descends and through that descent he gains the ability to move forward. He does not move forward and is then forced to go down:
A dragonborn can use her wings to glide, negating damage from a fall from any height and allowing 20 feet of forward travel for every 5 feet of descent. Dragonborn glide at a speed of 30 feet with average maneuverability.

[OldTrees1]

It does not say that it is free either. Going your full speed forward and a certain distance down violates the definition of speed (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/glossary&term=Glossary_dnd_speed&alpha=S). It only happens to work for descents equal to or smaller than 10 ft (or 5 if the doubling does not apply), because of the way diagonals are calculated. As soon as the descent is greater than 5 ft effectively it does not work.

How can you reduce your movement from 35 ft to 22.5 by moving a further 5 ft? That makes no sense.

It does not say that it is free, but if it were not free then you would have the self-referential calculation X = (C+X)/4. Obviously that is not RAI and we already showed that it is not RAW(since it does not say so).

35/60 < 22.5/30 as per Math(Fractions).


Edit:
Thanks for the quote. Being AFB is hard.
As you can see in that quote, the descent is from slowed Falling(which never cost movement before).

[LTwerewolf]

This is using the same logic as "dead isn't a defined term therefore you can do whatever you want to while dead." It's pretty clear, both in RAW and RAI (a rarity) and people just try to make everything more complicated because it makes them feel smart. OP has his answer, any further argument is for the sake of argument. Andezzar is not going to be swayed by any argument known or unknown regardless of validity.

[Andezzar]

The number of feet a creature can move when taking a move action.As soon as the speed goes back to 30 ft, the creature already has moved more than its speed. You cannot express the traveled distance in fractions of the creature's speed. You cannot divide a distance (ft) by a velocity (ft/move action) and get a distance.

[OldTrees1]

As soon as the speed goes back to 30 ft, the creature already has moved more than its speed. You cannot express the traveled distance in fractions of the creature's speed. You cannot divide a distance (ft) by a velocity (ft/move action) and get a distance.

30ft / (60ft/move action) = 0.5 * Move action so you still have half your move action remaining for more movement.

That said LTwerewolf is right that neither of us will succeed at convincing the other. Feel free to continue to explain your position but we should not argue for the purpose of convincing the other at this point.

[Ruethgar]

I've always read it as you are falling but can move 30ft as if you had fly to a max of 7.5ft fallen for 30ft flight equivalent per turn.