Psion (Telepath) without Thrallherd: Viability?

[Endarire]

Thrallherd is a logical PrC for any Telepath, but it's nuts. Really. How viable is full Telepath (or Telepath19/Psionic Mindbender1) without Thrallherd?

Any special notes to players or/and GMs?

[Draconium]

Thrallherd is a logical PrC for any Telepath, but it's nuts. Really. How viable is full Telepath (or Telepath19/Psionic Mindbender1) without Thrallherd?

I would say they're similar to a Sorcerer or (maybe) a Wizard specializing in Enchantment. They can be very powerful, but they lose much of their power when faced with any of the many monsters with immunity to mind-affecting effects.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Decently well. Identifying monsters means your charm and dominate are ultimately stronger than their magic counterparts due to coming online earlier. Just pack Dispel Psionics for Mind Blank.

You also get easy access to schism which is never a bad thing. I honestly would play a telepath over a kineticist.

[AmberVael]

Its absolutely fine, if not better than taking lots of thrallherd levels and losing significant amounts of manifesting. The Telepath discipline list may not be quite as potent as some of the others, but it does have its upsides and even if you went without any powers from a discipline list, the general list has enough that the psion would still be solidly tier 2.

Special notes: Like other tier 2 characters, a telepath may break your game if not carefully considered and/or controlled.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Very solidly T2.

The class still has full access to the psion/wilder list which, while certainly not as powerful as the sorc/wiz list, is quite solid. While telepathy is probably the least powerful of the six, it's still pretty solid, more so than enchantment because of the -nice- buffs.

[Psyren]

Any special notes to players or/and GMs?

Pick some non-telepathy powers so you can handle constructs and undead. The Psion Handbook by Saeomon should give you all kinds of great choices.

[ComaVision]

My girlfriend is playing a Tibbit Telepath in the game I'm currently GMing and mostly just plays around with Astral Construct gained via Hidden Talent. Particularly since most of the group is new, that's a fair contribution without touching the rest of the fairly extensive power list available.

[noob]

Also telepaths can get all the faculties with psionic surgery(forgot the base name) at the expense of XP.

[molten_dragon]

Its absolutely fine, if not better than taking lots of thrallherd levels and losing significant amounts of manifesting.

Straight telepath is perfectly viable, but under no circumstances is it better than thrallherd.

You only give up two manifesting levels as a thrallherd, but in return you get two extra characters to play!

[Flickerdart]

Much like an enchanter, a telepath who only manifests on his enemies is a sucker:


Schism is an amazing power. Cast it on yourself! Share it with your crystal! Break action economy into small, easily digestible pieces.
Mind switch and its true friend is a no-frills way of getting your sexy mind into an equally sexy body. Dump your physical scores and then usurp something that has them in spades. Your enemy is immune to telepathy? Let's see how immune it is to a dragon's natural attack routine.
Mind seed has limited usefulness, but it's hilarious. Much like dominate it should be cast well before you require minions to aid you, and can be used on guys that don't have mind-affecting defenses.
Psychic chirurgery is every psion's best friend. In addition to being a super-awesome restoration/dispel/break enchantment/whatever, it also lets you greatly expand your powers known. Just go around teaching it to other psions in exchange for a power from them - even a discipline power they possess!

[Pippin]

but in return you get two extra characters to play!
Have you actually tried it? Frankly, I'm not sure I see how this could be fun in a group. If I were to play a Thrallherd, personally, I would try to make a deal with my DM. I don't bring my thrall(s) into the game, and in return, the DM's okay with me charming/dominating my thrall(s), so that I have more than the maximum allowed at my disposal at a time, when I'm alone without the group (= for TO shenanigans, but I would never use these terms when making the offer).

[AmberVael]

Straight telepath is perfectly viable, but under no circumstances is it better than thrallherd.

You only give up two manifesting levels as a thrallherd, but in return you get two extra characters to play!

You know, for some reason I've always thought Thrallherd had half-progression manifesting. Not sure where I got that idea. Its definitely not as bad as I was thinking.

That said? I still might just go for straight telepath over Thrallherd. More characters is strong but so is faster manifester progression, even if the loss doesn't sting as much as with a spellcaster.

[Nifft]

It depends on several things:

- Does your DM approve of ~you~ building your own Thralls?

- Does your DM want to make your Thralls, but your DM is also a pretty cool person who is going to generally give you nice toys?

- Does your group optimize to the point that having disposable full-casting meat-shields will be relevant but not overpowered?

- Are you willing to share control of your Thralls with other players, so they can have fun even when you control all aLl ALL GLORY TO THE HYPNO PSION.

- ALL GLORY TO THE HYPNO PSION.

- Ahem. Anyway, a Thrallherd can be a really fun PrC, but the basic Psion class is a plenty strong T2 all by itself. If you would feel happy as a Sorcerer, you can probably play a straight Psion without regret.

[molten_dragon]

Have you actually tried it?

Yeah, I've played one in a campaign. I thought it was fun. They're not for everyone though, it is a lot of work since you're playing multiple characters.

I'll note that the campaign I played it in was very high-op. Everyone's character was silly powerful.

[Rubik]

It depends on several things:

- Does your DM approve of ~you~ building your own Thralls?

- Does your DM want to make your Thralls, but your DM is also a pretty cool person who is going to generally give you nice toys?The player explicitly gets to choose race and class combination, and the thrall(s) follow(s) your every command. Psychic Reformation is a thing and rebuilding quickly is easy, so even if you don't get exactly what you want, you still get exactly what you want.

[Nifft]

The player explicitly gets to choose race and class combination, and the thrall(s) follow(s) your every command. Psychic Reformation is a thing and rebuilding quickly is easy, so even if you don't get exactly what you want, you still get exactly what you want.

Can you show me where it says that?

Here's what I see:


Thrallherd (Ex)

A thrallherd who has just entered the class sends out a subtle psychic call for servants, and that call is answered. Essentially, the character gains something akin to the Leadership feat, but with some important differences.

Those who answer a thrallherd’s call are not referred to as cohorts and followers, but rather as thralls and believers, respectively. They do not appear because they admire the character and want to serve her, but because a hidden psychic resonance connects the thrallherd and her servants.

As with the Leadership feat, a thrallherd has a Leadership score that determines the highest-level thrall and believers she can attract. A thrallherd’s Leadership score is equal to her character level + her Cha modifier + her thrallherd level. (Note that her thrallherd level is counted twice.) This score is not affected by any of the modifiers mentioned in the Leadership feat.

As with the Leadership feat, the called thrall’s level is limited, even if the character’s Leadership score would indicate a higher-level thrall. Unlike with the Leadership feat, the level limit of a thrall is equal to the character’s total level minus 1 (not level minus 2, as is true for cohorts).

A thrallherd cannot take the Leadership feat; if the character already has it, the feat is lost and replaced by this ability; those who were previously cohorts and followers go their separate ways, and those who are more mentally pliable show up later to take up roles as thralls and believers. A thrallherd’s first thrall and believers arrive within 24 hours of her entry into this class; likewise, lost thralls and believers are replaced within 24 hours.

Use this table instead of the one with the Leadership feat to determine the level of a thrallherd’s thrall and the number of believers of various levels a thrallherd can attract.


Thanks!

[Rubik]

Can you show me where it says that?

Here's what I see:


Thrallherd (Ex)

A thrallherd who has just entered the class sends out a subtle psychic call for servants, and that call is answered. Essentially, the character gains something akin to the Leadership feat, but with some important differences.

Those who answer a thrallherd’s call are not referred to as cohorts and followers, but rather as thralls and believers, respectively. They do not appear because they admire the character and want to serve her, but because a hidden psychic resonance connects the thrallherd and her servants.

As with the Leadership feat, a thrallherd has a Leadership score that determines the highest-level thrall and believers she can attract. A thrallherd’s Leadership score is equal to her character level + her Cha modifier + her thrallherd level. (Note that her thrallherd level is counted twice.) This score is not affected by any of the modifiers mentioned in the Leadership feat.

As with the Leadership feat, the called thrall’s level is limited, even if the character’s Leadership score would indicate a higher-level thrall. Unlike with the Leadership feat, the level limit of a thrall is equal to the character’s total level minus 1 (not level minus 2, as is true for cohorts).

A thrallherd cannot take the Leadership feat; if the character already has it, the feat is lost and replaced by this ability; those who were previously cohorts and followers go their separate ways, and those who are more mentally pliable show up later to take up roles as thralls and believers. A thrallherd’s first thrall and believers arrive within 24 hours of her entry into this class; likewise, lost thralls and believers are replaced within 24 hours.

Use this table instead of the one with the Leadership feat to determine the level of a thrallherd’s thrall and the number of believers of various levels a thrallherd can attract.


Thanks!The thrallherd ability is noted as being as the Leadership feat except for the differences described there. Leadership notes that the character can explicitly influence what kind of cohort (ie, thrall) he gets.

And if he gets something he doesn't want, he can get a different one in 24 hours, so just keep trying.

[Nifft]

The thrallherd ability is noted as being as the Leadership feat except for the differences described there. It doesn't actually say that. It says this:


Essentially, the character gains something akin to the Leadership feat, but with some important differences. (emphasis mine)

There are rules which use the language you've described, but this is NOT one of them.

[Psyren]

XPH gives a bit more context:


Thrallherds manipulate the minds of others as if they were clay in the hands of a sculptor. Some creatures are more susceptible than others to the thrallherd’s unconscious, but continual, call to service. And so they come, eager to be led, happy to follow, and completely under the thrallherd’s control. In this way, thrallherds keep a minor menagerie of enthralled servants that are anxious to do their will.

So you can order them to stand there and let you Reform them; you could probably even order them to Retrain entirely if PHB2 is in play.

(Keep in mind that I generally ban Thrallherd as I find the class to be too abusive.)

[Draconium]

It doesn't actually say that. It says this:

(emphasis mine)

There are rules which use the language you've described, but this is NOT one of them.

Going by the definition of those terms, though, one can assume that it works as a Leadership feat, except where it is described. That's not exactly what it was saying, but it's close, so that's how most people probably interpret it.

[Rubik]

Akin: "similar in quality or character."

Going by that, the sentence says:


the character gains something similar to the Leadership feat, but with some important differences.And then it proceeds to lay out those differences.

In other words, the thrallherd ability is "like Leadership, except..."

[Nifft]

The player explicitly gets to choose race and class combination, and the thrall(s) follow(s) your every command. Psychic Reformation is a thing and rebuilding quickly is easy, so even if you don't get exactly what you want, you still get exactly what you want. Except when you can't, of course, because base ability scores, racial hit dice, and LA are things which can't be Reformatted away.


So you can order them to stand there and let you Reform them; you could probably even order them to Retrain entirely if PHB2 is in play. Sure. But the former costs XP, and the latter takes time. If you're in a dungeon and you need a meat-shield today, you either have to play along with what you get, or you have to do without.

You want to be on the same page as your DM about how that feature works.

It's still a great PrC either way, but you don't want an unpleasant surprise if your assumptions turn out invalid.


Going by the definition of those terms, though, one can assume that it works as a Leadership feat, except where it is described. That's not exactly what it was saying, but it's close, so that's how most people probably interpret it.
Exactly. It's not explicit, and there are people who read it differently. So, check with your DM before assuming you can or can't do this thing.

Hopefully, you can do it. If not, then you're still probably fine.

[Psyren]

It's still a great PrC either way, but you don't want an unpleasant surprise if your assumptions turn out invalid.

Oh definitely, I'd never try to spring a Thrallherd (especially one with a customized thrall) on any DM.

And the XP/time argument can actually work in the player's favor, it lets the DM charge the player a little extra for getting a custom thrall (making a "yes" slightly more likely.)

[Nifft]

Oh definitely, I'd never try to spring a Thrallherd (especially one with a customized thrall) on any DM.

And the XP/time argument can actually work in the player's favor, it lets the DM charge the player a little extra for getting a custom thrall (making a "yes" slightly more likely.)

Heh, now I'm picturing Thralls as NPCs who made terrible life choices which they now wish to undo.

"I'm a Mystic Theurge. I didn't know any better! Oh gods, can anyone fix me?"

[Rubik]

If I were to use the thrallherd PrC, I'd go one of two routes. Either I'd use the thrall as my own body via being a possessing ghost or fiend of possession, or I'd use it as a mount or animal companion. Druids already gain the benefits of both via wild shape and their animal companion; I don't see doing the same with my thralls as being any different, honestly.

[Grod_The_Giant]

If you do go Telepath, don't forget that Mind's Eye substitution level for literal telepathy at 5th.

[Rubik]

If you do go Telepath, don't forget that Mind's Eye substitution level for literal telepathy at 5th.I'm really surprised that psionics doesn't actually have access to actual telepathy, outside of the ACF. I mean, it's a cornerstone of psychic powers.

[Psyren]

I'm really surprised that psionics doesn't actually have access to actual telepathy, outside of the ACF. I mean, it's a cornerstone of psychic powers.

No actual telekinesis either :smallfurious:

[Rubik]

No actual telekinesis either :smallfurious:Spellcasters should have gotten Telekinetic Thrust, etc, while psions should've gotten the Telekinesis spell with additional augments for adding additional abilities in what it can do. Instead...

[Psyren]

Agreed. At least the Psychic got it...

[Troacctid]

I'm really surprised that psionics doesn't actually have access to actual telepathy, outside of the ACF. I mean, it's a cornerstone of psychic powers.

Mindlink is a Telepath power, and why doesn't the ACF count? It is actual telepathy.

[Rubik]

Mindlink is a Telepath power, and why doesn't the ACF count? It is actual telepathy.Mindlink isn't actual telepathy. It's mind-affecting and only affects one creature at a time, which makes it pretty much useless when addressing multiple people, unlike actual telepathy. Also, it doesn't work for effects such as Mindsight.

And I said outside the ACF. Because it is actual telepathy. But it's not part of the XPH, and it's telepath-only, and telepaths are definitely not my favorite type of psion.