Optimization: Mirror Tank

[BootStrapTommy]

There are two kinds of tanks. We'll call them sponges and mirrors.

Sponge tanks are the most common. They're the Moon Druids and Barbarians of the world, who can take a beating by virtue of simply having the HP to do so.

The other kind of tank is the mirror, who tanks not by taking damage, but by not taking it at all.

I want to make such a tank, but in order to do it, I realized I need a few criteria met:

-Obviously, a mirror has high AC. Maximizing AC would be important. Heavy armor and shields are thus important.

-Good saves. Dex, Con, and Wis are the three big ones. A good mirror should be proficient in all three.

-Decent health. If the mirror fails to stop the attack (crits auto hit), they should not die. So no d6 Wizard's or Sorcs.

The question is, what is the optimal build for this kind of tank?

A Variant Human Battle Master/Rogue with Shield Master and Resilience (Wisdom) comes to mind, but what would improve on that? What are other options?

[djreynolds]

EK Knight or even AT at 7th level get mirror image, which is not concentration. My mountain dwarf Abjuror already uses it and uses the shield spell as a reaction, because he gets no shield. And he tanks all the time.

So EK 7th level can take mirror image as his choose spell and take protection from evil, which is concentration and better than blade ward vs certain types of monsters only. He can wear plate and grab shield master for evasion, and take resilient wisdom. So that's 4 saves. Also really needs war caster as soon as possible. He can take sentinel.

And when no one is looking, grab arcane trickster if your campaign is going to high level at least to 6th level and snag 4 expertise athletic, perception, insight, and acrobatics and uncanny dodge at 5th and cunning action.

At 4th level, stoneskin becomes available to add resistance. And all you need is 13 in dexterity to grab defensive duelist, yes its competing for you reaction with uncanny dodge but not getting hit is the name of the game.

Also with defensive duelist you may find you only need 2 levels in rogue and can skip uncanny dodge, and can take wizard the rest of the way.

EK12/AT8 or EK12/rogue 3/wizard 5. 3 attacks, expertise at least 2 skills, cunning action when misty step can't be used, shield master, resilient wisdom and war caster. Defensive duelist if you can with ASI going to str and int, min dex of 13. Or go the dex route and just have 10 in strength and be a dwarf.

[JellyPooga]

stuff

I'll suggest the Eldritch Knight 8/Arcane Trickster 12, if only for Reliable Talent.

Plate Armour, Shield, Shield Spell, Prot.vs E/G, Mirror Image...it's a solid package. You don't get to play with any 3rd or 4th level spells with this build, due to the way multiclassing spellcasting classes works, but you can still use the higher level slots.

A total of 7 Feats/ASI's to play with. I'd go with (in no particular order);
- Alert
- Resilient (Wis)
- Defensive Duelist
- Lucky
- Shield Master
- War Caster
- ASI of your choice

As for Race, I'd probably go with Stout Halfling; Lucky, Brave and Stout Resilience makes for a very durable character and you get good Racial Ability Score mods (+2 Dex. +1 Con).

[Santra]

Oath of the ancients Paladin with shield master. Cha to all saves, d10 hit die, plate armor, and resistance to spells.

[Malifice]

Paladin 6 (for the cha to saves, heavy armor, shields, defensive style) is the baseline.

Human. Resilient Con. Now you have 3 good saves that all add charisma including the big 3 (str, wis, con). Grab shield master at 4th (for pseudo evasion) to help out dex saves.

From there take lore bard. Cutting words turns a hit into a miss. Pilfer shield, haste, counterspell and mirror image as spells to ensure you never get hit. As a bonus you also get tons of spell slots for smiting. Finally - take expertise in athletics to protect yourself against any shove/ push/ grapple shenanigans.

Take lucky and pump charisma to 20.

If they can get past your mirror images, an AC of 30+isn't beyond you (forcing re-rolls of those pesky Nat 20s, or reducing the roll by 1d10 on any other result).

[JellyPooga]

Oath of the ancients Paladin with shield master. Cha to all saves, d10 hit die, plate armor, and resistance to spells.

Good call. I'd still want to throw in some Arcane Trickster in there to grab the likes of Shield and Mirror Image for your spell list and Uncanny Dodge and Expertise (in Athletics, if nothing else; high Athletics is an essential defence against grapples and shoves).


Paladin 6 (for the cha to saves, heavy armor, shields, defensive style) is the baseline.

I'd take Paladin to 7 for Aura of Warding.

[Santra]

Don't forget Absorb Elements from Elemental Evil. Resistance to non-spell elemental damage that boosts your weapon damage is pretty damn good.

[Citan]

Hi!

Interesting topic, have thought a bit about it...
I'd say...
Paladin 6: all armor proficiencies, armored fighting style, +CHA to saves,
Lore Bard 6: Cutting Words and Magic Secrets to get some spells (Mirror Image, Armor of Agathys, Blur, Blink, Misty Steps) OR
Draconic Sorcerer 5 to get permanent 18 AC and Shield, Mirror Image, Blink, Haste etc) OR
Abjuration Wizard 5 to get nearly all these spells and even more (probably the best choice if you can multiclass and don't have max DEX).

DEX-based build anyways but you can don heavy armor and suffer speed penalty, or take Warlock for free Mage Armor and "resist magic" familiar.

Finesse weapon + Shield
Fighting Style Armored (+ Mariner if you multiclass Fighter for some reason).
Feats: Defensive Duelist (against melee attacks), Shield Master (against dex spells), Resilient Constitution (obvious). Mobile (disable AOO) and Inspiring Leader (up to 25 THP) can be good also but you probably can't afford everything since you have to max DEX (and CHA if possible).

Permanent armor: 18 (Heavy Armor/Mage Armor/Draconic) + 2 (shield) and +1 if Armored.
Start of Fight, cast Mirror Image, Armor of Agathys (if available), and either Blur or Shield of Faith.
You can even stack Blink if you know it and find it necessary, but I'd say it's overkill in most cases.
Or cast Aid beforehand if you think you're gonna be hurt.

You now have from +5 (max CHA) to +11 (CHA+max proficiency) to all saving throws (+13 against DEX), you have images with 15 AC (not great but decent), to which you can add Blink if really needed.

For tough fights, stack Aid and concentration Shield of Faith, for base 22 AC (or Blur if you cast Mirror Image and consider that Blur also affects attacks against the images. Not sure about this).
In case of emergencies, you have costless reactions against melee attacks and many spells, you can also get +5 AC with Shield.

Build comes online early enough and you can cope with only Shield Master as feat if needed.

I think it's pretty viable, like a paladin with spells on steroids. :)

[BootStrapTommy]

Was prepared for thread crapping. But you guys have performed admirably.

I'm iffy about the EK/AT build and the paladin/bard, they seem to have MADD. EK/AT (Dex, Con, Wis, & Int) and pali/bard (Dex, Con, Wis, & Cha). Though either work pretty well.

Kinda like the idea of paladin/rogue (Shadowbane Inquisitor FTW). Can survive with Dex, Con, and Wis. Resilience Con, Shield Master, maybe Defensive Duelist and War Caster. Nice repertoire of defensive spells.

[JellyPooga]

I'm iffy about the EK/AT build and the paladin/bard, they seem to have MADD. EK/AT (Dex, Con, Wis, & Int) and pali/bard (Dex, Con, Wis, & Cha). Though either work pretty well.

Neither Eldritch Knight or Arcane Trickster need Intelligence for this kind of build. Int helps their Spell Save DC and Spell Attack; if they're only using their spell slots for buffs, they don't need Int...at all. Dump it to 8 if you want.

As for the Pally/Bard, Charisma makes up for any lack in Dex, Con or Wis for Saves. 12's in Dex/Con/Wis and 20 in Cha is more than achievable and is better than a non-Pally with 20's in all three.

[BootStrapTommy]

As for the Pally/Bard, Charisma makes up for any lack in Dex, Con or Wis for Saves. 12's in Dex/Con/Wis and 20 in Cha is more than achievable and is better than a non-Pally with 20's in all three.Good point. Though one might chose to at least have good Dex, to ensure at least passable weapon damage...

Anyone got suggestions on the Pali/Bard builds?

[Shaofoo]

Your best bet is pure Barbarian, they can reach the highest AC with Unarmored Defense plus they got shield proficiency for added AC. Also Rage gives you resistance to damage (especially if you go Bearbarian). If you really care about saving throws just go Resilience twice or I would only bother to only go for Dex Resilience for the ability score increase. And also they have the highest HP.

Basically pure Barbarian is what you seem to look for.

[BootStrapTommy]

Your best bet is pure Barbarian, they can reach the highest AC with Unarmored Defense plus they got shield proficiency for added AC. Also Rage gives you resistance to damage (especially if you go Bearbarian). If you really care about saving throws just go Resilience twice or I would only bother to only go for Dex Resilience for the ability score increase. And also they have the highest HP.

Basically pure Barbarian is what you seem to look for. Some problems here...

MADD. Str, Dex, Con, & Wis. To max AC 22, you have to max two stats, Dex and Con. Suboptimal, given the class is lacking if you fail to max out Str. Especially if you need to eat ASI for Resilience feats. And if you neglect Wis, you become the first caster you encounter's bitch.

A class with a Fighting Style, meanwhile, caps at AC 21, sans any maxxed stats, saving room for feats. And the Pali only needs to max out Cha in order to field ridiculous saves.

The dependence on high stats really does the Barb in for me...

[JellyPooga]

Your best bet is pure Barbarian, they can reach the highest AC with Unarmored Defense plus they got shield proficiency for added AC. Also Rage gives you resistance to damage (especially if you go Bearbarian). If you really care about saving throws just go Resilience twice or I would only bother to only go for Dex Resilience for the ability score increase. And also they have the highest HP.

Basically pure Barbarian is what you seem to look for.

Can't take Resilient twice. I agree, however, that a Barbarian dip gives you a lot of what you might want for tanking; Rage for Resistance to damage and Danger Sense is almost as good as Dex Save Proficiency.

Barbarian (Bear) 3/Pally (Ancients) 7/Bard (Lore)10 is a solid "mirror-tank". 1st level = Barbarian

Here's the list:
Save Prof: Str, Con
Rage (Bear Totem): Resistance to all damage whilst Raging
Danger Sense: Advantage on Dex Saves
Aura of Protection: +Cha to Saves
Aura of Warding: Resistance to spell damage
Expertise (x4): Athletics, Perception, Stealth and (any 1)
Cutting Words: Retroactive attack roll reducer
Magical Secrets (x4): Shield, Mirror Image, (any 2)
Spellcasting (Effective Level 13)

Only three Feats/ASI's, though, so choose wisely; Resilient (Wis), +2 Cha, +2 Cha is what I'd go with, but I'd be tempted to switch one or both of the +2's for Lucky and/or Shield Master.

I'd still go with Halfling, probably Lightfoot for the Cha bump.
Using PB;
(7)STR: 14
(4)DEX: 12+2 Racial =14
(4)CON: 12
(0)INT: 8
(3)WIS: 11 (+1 Resilient =12)
(9)CHA: 15+1 Racial =16 (+2 ASI +2 ASI =20)

Half Plate Armour and Shield (AC:15+2 Dex+2 Shield+1 Defence FS =20)
- Shield spell +5, Shield of Faith +2 = AC:27 without sweating
Saves (lvl.20): Str +13, Dex +7* (Adv.), Con +12, Int +4, Wis +12, Cha +10
(Halfling) Lucky avoids botching Saves on a 1
Resistance to all Spell damage and all damage in Rage (unless there's some non-magical Psychic damage out there...)
Athletics +14 (Adv. in Rage)

*Shield Master ups Dex Save to +9 and grants effective Evasion

[Corran]

Haven't read all the answers so far (plan to do it), so sorry if this was already mentioned.
In term of boosting your AC, you need the following:
1) plate armor (so preferably start as a class who has proficiency with heavy armors)
2) shield (like above)
3) Defense fighting style

All of the above combined sets your AC to 21, which is as good as it can get (as far as I know).

4) Blur (that will be your concentration spell)
5) Mirror Image
6) The spell Shield and enough spell slots to use it as much as you need to.

All 1-6 can be achieved by a fighter1/wizard (abj)3, or by a paladin2/sorcerer3 build.

For good saves the paladin's aura of protection (at paladin level 6) is the first thing that comes to mind. Taking the resilient feat would also come very handy. Cant think of an efficient way for you to get proficiency with all 3 important saving throws.

Edit 1: Make sure you are proficient in con saves, as they determine whether you will keep concentration on blur/ protection from evil.

Anyway, those are the first things that come to mind, hope that's helpful, and sorry if they were already mentioned.

Edit 2: Protection from evil works exactly like blur when facing undead/fiends/etc, and it offers some extra protection against those types. So good to have. Paladins have it on their spell list.

[BootStrapTommy]

Only three Feats/ASI's, though, so choose wisely; Resilient (Wis), +2 Cha, +2 Cha is what I'd go with, but I'd be tempted to switch one or both of the +2's for Lucky and/or Shield Master.
Scrap Resilient for Shield Master. You're a Pali, silly. You're already proficient in Wisdom saves!


I'd still go with Halfling, probably Lightfoot for the Cha bump.
Using PB;
(7)STR: 14
(4)DEX: 12+2 Racial =14
(4)CON: 12
(0)INT: 8
(3)WIS: 11 (+1 Resilient =12)
(9)CHA: 15+1 Racial =16 (+2 ASI +2 ASI =20)
If you are gunna have Half-Plate and want good Dex saves, why not trade that 14 Str in for a higher Dex or Wis (since no Resilient)

[JellyPooga]

Scrap Resilient for Shield Master. You're a Pali, silly. You're already proficient in Wisdom saves!

I'd start as Barbarian for Str and Con proficiency. Better than Wis and Cha, I think. There's probably more effects (on the whole) that target Str saves than Cha and your Charisma is high anyway. Going Pally first means you'll miss out on a good Str Save (and would want Resilient for Con), going Barbarian first means you get a good Str and Cha save.


If you are gunna have Half-Plate and want good Dex saves, why not trade that 14 Str in for a higher Dex or Wis (since no Resilient)

Str 13 is required for the multiclass, so may as well set it at 14 and enjoy the +2 mod!

[Shaofoo]

Can't take Resilient twice. I agree, however, that a Barbarian dip gives you a lot of what you might want for tanking; Rage

Forget dip, I want a full blown Barbarian, for the added Con above 20 and infinite rage. I think near perma resistance to all but psychic damage is good.

The barbarian does best in most of the check list items and trying to multiclass dilutes it because it locks you out of the Barbarian capstone.

The only think you'll miss out is in saving throws but I personally think that is a minor quibble.

GO Vuman for Resilience Dex or Shield Master, point in Dex and Con and use all ASI for stat increases or sacrifice an ASI for the other feat. Use a Raiper and a Shield.

You lose out on the big parts of Rage but you still gain the resistances.

[JellyPooga]

Forget dip, I want a full blown Barbarian

Full blown Barbarian is one of the best tanks, sure, but the OP is after what he's called a "mirror-tank". Paladin straight up wins for Saves, so I'd call it essential for the build he's looking for. For the highest AC and/or not-getting-hit, you need magic; Shield (spell), Shield of Faith, Mirror Image, Blur, to name a few. Straight Barbarian doesn't quite cut it as a "mirror".

[Shaofoo]

Full blown Barbarian is one of the best tanks, sure, but the OP is after what he's called a "mirror-tank". Paladin straight up wins for Saves, so I'd call it essential for the build he's looking for. For the highest AC and/or not-getting-hit, you need magic; Shield (spell), Shield of Faith, Mirror Image, Blur, to name a few. Straight Barbarian doesn't quite cut it as a "mirror".

There are three items, AC, Saves and HP.

Barbarian wins on AC and HP while Paladins wins on Saves

A Paladin could have a higher AC with spells but spells are on a limited resource. You can't depend on them all the time. I would use spells as a last resort, not as a first resort. Barbarians can eventually have infinite rages so saying he has a permanent resistance to all by psychic damage is feasible while you can't say the same for Paladin magic.

Plus Barbarians gets advantages on Dexterity saving throws, can actually survive being knocked down to 0 HP immediately, and can even force disadvantage on attack rolls not made for them.

A Paladin makes a great tank and has a lot of other things that a Barbarian doesn't have (damage and heals for one) but the Barbarian wins the contest of the mirror tank. A tank should have sustainability and spells don't give that sustainability.

[Corran]

A tank should have sustainability and spells don't give that sustainability.
I respectfully disagree. I played a fighter2/warlock2/sorcererX in my HotDQ campaign and he tanked magnificently (I was also the only tanky character of the group, everyone else was ranged except from a squishy monk who wasn't targeted a lot thanks to DM's discretion. AC 21 (was higher after some point due to magic itmes) along with blur (protection from evil), mirror image (when I felt it was really necessary) and shield spell (in the rare occassions that something could hit my AC) was all I needed. Moreover, the warlock levels gave me 2 extra spell slots (of 1st level) per short rest, to just spam shield if I ever needed to (although I took the warlocks levels mainly to boost my dpr and nova). Granted, my dex and wis saves were my weak points, though if I remember correctly I grabbed resilient(wis) at level 8 (maybe it was +2 to cha, I am not sure, but I remember I was debating which of those 2 I should get).

[Shaofoo]

I respectfully disagree. I played a fighter2/warlock2/sorcererX in my HotDQ campaign and he tanked magnificently (I was also the only tanky character of the group, everyone else was ranged except from a squishy monk who wasn't targeted a lot thanks to DM's discretion. AC 21 (was higher after some point due to magic itmes) along with blur (protection from evil), mirror image (when I felt it was really necessary) and shield spell (in the rare occassions that something could hit my AC) was all I needed. Moreover, the warlock levels gave me 2 extra spell slots (of 1st level) per short rest, to just spam shield if I ever needed to (although I took the warlocks levels mainly to boost my dpr and nova). Granted, my dex and wis saves were my weak points, though if I remember correctly I grabbed resilient(wis) at level 8 (maybe it was +2 to cha, I am not sure, but I remember I was debating which of those 2 I should get).

Warlock 2, you can have 2 spell slots regained on a short rest instead of a long one. That ups sustainability considerably. Not having to worry if you need to save your Shield for the day take a load that other tank spell casters can't ignore. Conservation of spell slots is a thing since you can't predict how much you need throughout the day, warlock helps alleviate that because those spells can come back much earlier than long rest spells.

[CNagy]

Paladin of the Ancients 8/ Arcane Trickster 12 or vice versa.
Half Elf. Strength-based. Full plate, shield, and Defense style (AC 21 long before the Barbarian ever gets there).
2 ASIs gets you to 20 Cha. 2 ASIs gets you 20 Str. That leaves 2 floating, 3 if you only put Str to 18. 4 if you leave it at 16. Possible feat options include Defensive Duelist, Resilient Constitution, War Caster, Tough etc.

+5 to all Saves, resistance to all magic damage, 1/2 damage reduction for those unavoidable critical hits, Evasion coupled with the Paladin aura is nigh immunity to Dex-based spell damage. Spell caster level is 8, so you've got plenty of spell-slots for a half-caster type, which you use on spells that require no concentration or saving throw. Mirror Image makes you harder to hit. Blur has concentration but gives every attacker disadvantage; good for groups and longer lasting than the Shield spell. Sneak Attack (6d6 or 4d6) reduces the need to spend spell slots on Smiting (make them a special occasion just for crits and giggles).

So AC is high, Saves are high, Hit Points are lower than some of the alternatives but you are packing a 40 point Heal as an action and Blade Ward when you need to physically tank for a couple of rounds as a delaying tactic.

[Person_Man]

I would add the suggestion of Pact of Chain Warlock (probably with a with a Fiend Patron).


Using the rules in the Monster Manual, the Imp or Quasit Familiar will grant you passive Advantage on Saves vs Magic at 3rd level.
Your spell list includes Counterspell, which auto-scales up to 5th level. In my opinion, Counterspell is more important than the Paladin's Auras (unless your DM spams magic against you in every battle), because you get to choose which spell to negate, and it works automatically against equal or lower level spells (and has a fairly good probability of success against higher level spells). Whereas with the Paladin's passive Auras, you're still being hit (even if you're only taking 50% damage and/or have a high probability of passing a Save).
Your spell list includes Armor of Agathys, which adds temporary hit points for 1 hour (without the need for Concentration) and more importantly (for this concept) a creature that hits you with a melee attack while you have the hit points takes the same amount of Cold damage. So after the first time they hit you, this spell strongly discourages enemies from attacking you again.
Your Familiar can fly, can be Invisible, and you have a telepathic bond, making them the ultimate scout, allowing you to avoid combat when you don't want to fight and set up ambushes when you do. Your Invisible Familiar can deliver touch spells for you, so you don't even have to be on the battlefield.
Darkness + Devil's Sight. Darkness imposes Disadvantage on attacks, Sight lets you see through it.
Repelling Blast pushes enemies away from you.
Your Fiend Patron adds more temp hit points, bonus to Save, and Resistance vs one damage type.
There are a bunch of other spell options I'm too lazy to index, like Misty Step, Mirror Image, Greater Invisibility, etc. Suffice to say, you get a lot of defensive options that prevent enemies from ever hitting you in the first place.
Your one "weakness" is an AC that will be in the 16-18 range (and potential MAD if you need to have high Dex + Con + Cha). But this can be solved by with a 1 level dip into Fighter or Ranger or Paladin (probably Fighter for the Con Save Proficiency), which will give you heavy armor + Defensive Fighting style for AC 21. If you want to go crazy, you can also pick up the Defensive Duelist Feat, though I would generally prefer to preserve my Reaction for Counterspell.

[Santra]

Thinking about it straight monk nets you 20AC (with 20 dex and wis), proficiency in all saves, the ability to go invisible and resistant to all non-force damage for a minute at a time, Immunity to disease poison charm and frightened, you can spend 1ki point to immediately retry a failed saving throw, evasion, and deflect missiles. Add in Open hand subclass and you have a lay on hands style self heal and stunning strike to shut down the most dangerous bad guys so they cant deal damage in the first place.

Two levels of fighter on top of that gets you the fighting style:Mariner for +1 ac and a swimming speed and climbing speed as well as action surge.

[JakOfAllTirades]

I don't have time to post a full build, but one other spell I've found useful for "mirror tanking" is Blink. Half the time, your enemies can't even target you!

This effectively doubles the lifetime of spells like Mirror Image and Armor of Agathys that get worn down by enemy attacks. If my spell choices didn't make it obvious <snort!> my character's a Warlock (BladePact) and he's come through many a combat unscathed. I wouldn't hesitate to recommend BladeLocks for "mirror tank" builds.

[tatsuyashiba]

There are two kinds of tanks. We'll call them sponges and mirrors.
-Obviously, a mirror has high AC. Maximizing AC would be important. Heavy armor and shields are thus important.

-Good saves. Dex, Con, and Wis are the three big ones. A good mirror should be proficient in all three.

-Decent health. If the mirror fails to stop the attack (crits auto hit), they should not die. So no d6 Wizard's or Sorcs.

The question is, what is the optimal build for this kind of tank?


Gnomes have advantage versus spell saves to Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma. Against moderate DCs, that's equivalent to a +5 bonus.

Don't rule out Wizards or Sorcerers with d6 hit die so quickly. You can start Level 1 in Fighter or Barbarian (for full 10 or 12 HP initially). Also gives you Con/Str saves, Armor/Shield, Second Wind or Rage. Constitution should be one of the top 2 or 3 stats for Wizards and Sorcerers anyway. The Tough feat effectively raises your hit die from a d6 to a d10, the same as a fighter. Some Wizard spell schools provide additional sources of HP - Abjuration via Arcane Ward, Necromancy via regaining HP with kills. Draconic Sorcerer gets an extra HP every level.

For a high AC tank - I don't think there is good synergy with Mirror Image. Mirror image gives you 3 duplicates that each have a 25% chance to be hit (so on a 6 or above, the attack targets one of your three duplicates instead of you). You roll to determine if an attack targets a duplicate regardless of your own AC. The AC for the duplicates is only equal to 10+Dex. Any hit destroys your duplicate. My Fighter 1 / Wizard 3 has an AC 20 (Half Plate, Shield, Defensive Fighting Style, +2 Dex bonus), 25 if he pops the level 1 Shield abjuration spell. I'm tanking maybe 4-6 attacks a round on a central choke point. My 3 AC 12 duplicates would be killed off in one round. Whereas Blur imposes Disadvantage on all the attacks I can see, lasts as long as my concentration, and synergizes well with my super high AC (via Shield spell) and Arcane Ward (to absorb damage without needing to make concentration checks). The problem is Blur eats up my concentration. Dodge action is attractive when I need super tanking, and might be easier to pull off with an Action Surge (requiring 2nd level of Fighter).

Also - you might consider a build with 2 levels of Rogue, so you can Dodge every round.

[Santra]

Also - you might consider a build with 2 levels of Rogue, so you can Dodge every round.
Cunning action only allows the dash, disengage, or hide actions. Not dodge.

[tatsuyashiba]

Cunning action only allows the dash, disengage, or hide actions. Not dodge.

Damn! Good catch! I guess that makes Monk and Ki points super awesome.

[SharkForce]

Thinking about it straight monk nets you 20AC (with 20 dex and wis), proficiency in all saves, the ability to go invisible and resistant to all non-force damage for a minute at a time, Immunity to disease poison charm and frightened, you can spend 1ki point to immediately retry a failed saving throw, evasion, and deflect missiles. Add in Open hand subclass and you have a lay on hands style self heal and stunning strike to shut down the most dangerous bad guys so they cant deal damage in the first place.

Two levels of fighter on top of that gets you the fighting style:Mariner for +1 ac and a swimming speed and climbing speed as well as action surge.

also bonus action dodge. that's super important too. when something has a 50/50 chance of hitting you in the first place, dodging makes that 25% chance... if you can actually pull off "only hits on a crit", you got from 5% to 0.25%, which is pretty amazing :)

takes a while to come online, though. unless you're rolling and roll amazing... then you can have AC 19 at level 1. which particular subclass of monk you go is not currently terribly relevant to how tanky you are, though. if elements monk added options for a few more of the interesting buffs mentioned above (say, a water-themed ability that casts mirror image at a reasonable cost instead of an inflated one, for example) that could change, though.

[Fwiffo86]

We are using a swarm tank (see below) in our game.

Level 10, Eldritch knight 4, Necromancer 6

He loves to use zombies as a wall defense. Keeps lots of people occupied. Not too concerned about damage, but we aren't using feats either. Works amazing. Grim harvest keeps him up while the zombies sometimes prove difficult to drop in the first place with that fortitude.

[BootStrapTommy]

Paladin of the Ancients 8/ Arcane Trickster 12 or vice versa.
Half Elf. Strength-based. Full plate, shield, and Defense style (AC 21 long before the Barbarian ever gets there).
2 ASIs gets you to 20 Cha. 2 ASIs gets you 20 Str. That leaves 2 floating, 3 if you only put Str to 18. 4 if you leave it at 16. Possible feat options include Defensive Duelist, Resilient Constitution, War Caster, Tough etc. To optimize Fullplate, you only need a 15 Str. Since Dex is a nice save, and Defensive Duelist a nice feat, leaving Str there in favor of Dex might make more sense.


I'd start as Barbarian for Str and Con proficiency. Better than Wis and Cha, I think. There's probably more effects (on the whole) that target Str saves than Cha and your Charisma is high anyway. Going Pally first means you'll miss out on a good Str Save (and would want Resilient for Con), going Barbarian first means you get a good Str and Cha save.
Str Saves are more common. But Cha saves are like Con saves. Banishment effects and such, which render you completely useless...

[JellyPooga]

Str Saves are more common. But Cha saves are like Con saves. Banishment effects and such, which render you completely useless...

Using the stat array I proposed, at lvl.20;
Pally first, you'll have Str +7, Cha +16
Barbarian first, it's Str +13, Cha +10

It's swings and roundabouts, but +10 is enough to regularly deal with threats vs. that stat. +7 is edging towards shaky ground. +16 is probably overkill. I'd prefer the +13/10 to +7/16 myself, but opinions differ.

[bid]

Str 13 is required for the multiclass, so may as well set it at 14 and enjoy the +2 mod!
Even with halfling, I might prefer Wis14 to Str14.

No, the biggest problem of mirror-tank is how to keep the mobs on you.

[CNagy]

To optimize Fullplate, you only need a 15 Str. Since Dex is a nice save, and Defensive Duelist a nice feat, leaving Str there in favor of Dex might make more sense.

An extra point or two in a Dex save--which is primarily magic direct damage (1/2 off due to aura) that is save for half (another 1/2 off due to Evasion) doesn't equal being able to hit more often in my experience. Let's get extreme: an enemy Sorcerer hits you with a Meteor Swarm! It does average damage and you fail your Dex save for 120 damage, 60 fire and 60 bludgeoning. Except first your aura cuts that down to 60. And then Evasion cuts that down to 30. So... yeah, you just took 30 damage and that's not nothing except it is when you are talking about taking a Meteor Swarm to the face. Normally, taking 30 damage from Meteor Swarm after *passing* the Dex save means that the caster rolled 40 dice that totaled up 60. That's all 1s and 2s in equal measure.

Without changing anything, you still pass that save 40% of the time (assuming DC19). 40% chance of 0 damage, 60% chance of greatly diminished damage. The Ancients Trickster doesn't need to pay much attention to his Dex save. That said, for Dex saves that aren't save for 1/2 (and thus don't trigger evasion) you could forgo a Str ASI for Shield Master, instead. +2 (at least) to Dex saves vs. spells that target you specifically cover things like Disintegrate (fail for 25-50 damage, 37.5 average), and the free shove adds a nice option for creating your own Sneak Attack opportunities when you don't have allies nearby.

Your Str saving throw is more valuable than Dex in this build, because as a tank the last thing that you want (well, one of them) is to get physically moved around the battlefield against your will which is basically what failing Str saves does. If you get blasted backwards into the back line, you've failed at your role.

[Shaofoo]

Some problems here...

MADD. Str, Dex, Con, & Wis. To max AC 22, you have to max two stats, Dex and Con. Suboptimal, given the class is lacking if you fail to max out Str. Especially if you need to eat ASI for Resilience feats. And if you neglect Wis, you become the first caster you encounter's bitch.

A class with a Fighting Style, meanwhile, caps at AC 21, sans any maxxed stats, saving room for feats. And the Pali only needs to max out Cha in order to field ridiculous saves.

The dependence on high stats really does the Barb in for me...

You said you wanted high survivability and you can get it, you will do less damage but you never said that damage was a thing.

Also if you want to skip over Bearbarian you can also be immune to charm and frightened while you are raged if you go Beserker which I think is what is the biggest effects that a bad Wis save can bring.

I still say pure Barbarian is your best bet based on what you want but if there are some added qualities that you do not disclose then I can't help you.