[3.5] De-powered pit fiend CR

[WalkingTheShade]

So, near the end of the '90s 2e module Fires of Dis, the party has to fight a recently de-powered pit-fiend (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/devil.htm#pitFiend).
In the old module, the party is supposed to be composed of 4 to 6 characters of 5th to 9th level.
I'm going to run it for a 3.5 game, with 4 or 5 ECL 8 characters, with below average CO.


he's lost all of his spell-like abilities (including gate and teleport without error), his regenerative power, his fear aura, and his immunity to non-magical weapons.
I'm translating that in 3.5 terms as losing:

All SLAs
Summon devil ability (Sp)
Regenaration (Ex)
Fear Aura (Su)
Damage reduction 15/good and silver

That leaves 18 outsider HD, SR 32, some combat feats, 6 attacks a round, Constrict (Ex) on tail slap, Poison (Ex) and Disease (Ex) on bite.

In the original module, the pit-fiend fights until reduced to one third of his HP. (Entailing, in 3.5, 150 damage before ending the fight: doable.)

My concern is that as is, the de-powered pit-fiend will defeat the party, @)!#$£ their corpses and devour whatever remains afterwards.
What I'm the most worried about is the Poison DC 27, that is near impossible at ECL 8 and that instant kills.

First question is: supposing it makes sense, how would you CR such a beast? For experience gain purposes, mainly.

Second order of questions is: how would you make the fight more balanced, while keeping the general flavor? The goal being to make it a brutal and difficult boss fight.

Here's the (non-exclusive) options I've thought of:

Giving the party a couple more allies for this fight.
Dramatically dropping the beasts STR and CON, reducing its damage output and poison DC.
Reducing it's HD.


The order of magnitude, regarding the last two options, is still an open question.

Edit: Here's what I got to:
This pit fiend has just fallen to the ground after having his wings burnt out by hellfire.

Size/Type: Large Outsider (Evil, Extraplanar, Lawful)
Hit Dice: 18d8+90 (171 hp)
Initiative: +9
Speed: 40 ft. (8 squares)
Armor Class: 29 (-1 size, +5 Dex, +15 natural), touch 14, flat-footed 24
Base Attack/Grapple: +18/+30
Attack: Claw +25 melee (2d8+8)
Full Attack: 2 claws +25 melee (2d8+8) and bite +23 melee (2d6+4 plus poison) and tail slap +23 melee (1d8+4)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./10 ft.
Special Attacks: Constrict 1d8+16, improved grab
Special Qualities: darkvision 60 ft., immunity to fire and poison, resistance to acid 10 and cold 10, fast healling 5, see in darkness, spell resistance 18, telepathy 100 ft.
Saves: Fort +16, Ref +16, Will +21
Abilities: Str 27, Dex 21, Con 21, Int 26, Wis 26, Cha 26
Skills: Balance +7, Bluff +29, Climb +29, Concentration +29, Diplomacy +10, Disguise +29 (+31 acting), Hide +22, Intimidate +31, Jump +35, Knowledge (arcana) +29, Knowledge (nature) +10, Knowledge (the planes) +29, Knowledge (religion) +29, Listen +29, Move Silently +26, Search +29, Spellcraft +31, Spot +29, Survival +8 (+10 on other planes, +10 when tracking), Tumble +28
Feats: Cleave, Great Cleave, Improved Initiative, Iron Will, Multiattack, Power Attack, Quicken Spell-Like Ability (fireball)
Challenge Rating: 11
Alignment: Always neutral evil

Combat
This pit fiend’s natural weapons, as well as any weapons it wields, are treated as evil-aligned for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.

Constrict (Ex)
A pit fiend deals 1d8+16 points of damage with a successful grapple check.

Improved Grab (Ex)
To use this ability, a pit fiend must hit with its tail slap attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity.
If it wins the grapple check, it establishes a hold and can constrict.

Poison (Ex)
Injury, Fortitude DC 24, initial damage 1d6 Con, secondary damage death. The save DC is Constitution-based.

[Fouredged Sword]

Yeah, it's depowered. Slap negative levels on that thing until it feels reasonable. 5 or so should reduce some of it's more unbeatable numbers back to reasonable levels.

Does the party have any advance notice that they are going to fight the pit fiend? If so, consider a few potions of delay poison (ensuring they don't die once hit) and neutralize poison (to actually purge the poison before the hour/level duration expires)

[WalkingTheShade]

Does the party have any advance notice that they are going to fight the pit fiend?
They get some clues. Now, they might not see it coming.
How would you CR it with 5 less HD?

[Fouredged Sword]

Each HD is roughly worth 1CR for outsiders.

[Essence_of_War]

Missing its regen power, I would also have it be de-fanged and de-tailed to give you a really nice visible indication of "de-powered". Possibly even having its wings broken as well so it can't use them in combat. That eliminates the constrict, the poison, the improved grab, and a big chunk of the full-attack routine.

If you chop it down to around 10 HD, give it a -10 or so to Str/Dex/Con, and maybe chop off 10 points of Natural Armor, you're sort of in the right neighborhood for "big-bag-of-HP-bad-guy".

[WalkingTheShade]

Missing its regen power, I would also have it be de-fanged and de-tailed to give you a really nice visible indication of "de-powered". Possibly even having its wings broken as well so it can't use them in combat. That eliminates the constrict, the poison, the improved grab, and a big chunk of the full-attack routine.
I thought about the wings too, going with a "fallen devil" theme. I actually like the fact that it has a LOT of attacks, it makes it really scary to fight one on one.


If you chop it down to around 10 HD, give it a -10 or so to Str/Dex/Con, and maybe chop off 10 points of Natural Armor, you're sort of in the right neighborhood for "big-bag-of-HP-bad-guy".
I think that's more or less what I'll go for.

[Essence_of_War]

Yeah taking the wings too might be a little overboard, but you could keep it in your back pocket if need be. Claw/claw/wing/wing is rough, but with a big hit to str and total HD it won't be quite as bad. And the really scary stuff is the bit/tail with all the associated nonsense. Plus it does punish them a little bit if their game plan is to just stand and strike with it. It should keep a whiff of fear about it, just not be an obvious TPK :smallsmile:

Edit to add: Do you know what your typical party member to-hits are? When you're considering how to adjust the natural armor, make sure that the person with the highest attack modifiers has at least a decent chance to hit-it.

[Flickerdart]

If all you want is a CR12 encounter, just take a CR12 devil (or another creature such as a dragon that has all the right things already) and say it's a pit fiend.

[WalkingTheShade]

Edit to add: Do you know what your typical party member to-hits are? When you're considering how to adjust the natural armor, make sure that the person with the highest attack modifiers has at least a decent chance to hit-it.
Thanks, I'll take that into consideration. I was actually thinking it the other way (best AC in the group VS pit fiend's to-hit).


If all you want is a CR12 encounter, just take a CR12 devil (or another creature such as a dragon that has all the right things already) and say it's a pit fiend.
Thank you. That makes a lot of sense. I think I'll start with an Adult Black Dragon (CR 11) then customize it a bit.