Fighter/Eldritch Knight build information

[psychopomp23]

Hi everyone,

I'm currently in my first 5th edition game and i decided to make a Fighter. We are now level 2 and i started looking at the Eldritch Knight archetype. Our quest should have us finish around lv. 8 so i'm trying to look at what i should do in my futur levels.

Race: Half elf
Lv. 2 Fighter/BG Soldier Fighting Style(Two-Weapon Fighting)
HP: 25

Current stats (we rolled 4d6 and re-rolled 1's and took the 3highest die)
Str: 16
Dex: 17
Con:18
Int: 15
Wis:13
Cha:16

Our DM allowed us to have a feat to start the game. so i picked 'Dual Wielder'
My range attack is with a Longbow and short with Lance and Rapier.

Here's what i was thinking so far.
Lv. 3 Eldritch Knight

Cantrips: Blade Ward, Greenflame blade
Lv.1: Earth Tremor, Shield and Magic missile

Lv. 4 Raise my Dex (to 18) and INT (to 16)
Level 1:

Lv. 5 Extra attack (sweet)

Lv. 6 Not sure if i should choose a feat or raise a stat by 2

Lv. 7
Lv.2 Melf's acid arrow

Lv.8
Lv.2 ???

Our party consist of a Ranger (bow) and a Cleric so i'm in between the 'tank' or 'striker' of the team. I don't necessary want to use attack spells and i'm looking something add damage or help me not getting hit. I was hoping i could get mirror image but i'm not sure if it's a good idea or if it's possible. Any help would be appreciated. Thank you

[This be Richard]

1. Lances can only be wielded one-handed on horseback and give disadvantage against targets within 5 feet. With your current two-weapon build, you'd probably want to go dual rapiers... though it could make casting complicated to have both of your hands occupied. You might consider switching to sword and shield, picking up the dueling or defense fighting styles, and taking War Caster as your starting feat.

2. You might want to take a pass on Blade Ward. I'm not a huge regular on these boards, but in what time I've spent here, I've never seen anyone say good things about it. It eats up your action until you get War Magic at level seven (at which point it will still eat up your action, but at least you'll still be able to attack once), and that's an awfully steep price to pay.

3. At level six, I would recommend bumping a stat. That +5 is hard to compete with.

4. At level eight, you should be able to take mirror image as one of your out-of-school spells. It seems like a good pick to me, but I'm no expert.

[psychopomp23]

1. Lances can only be wielded one-handed on horseback and give disadvantage against targets within 5 feet. With your current two-weapon build, you'd probably want to go dual rapiers... though it could make casting complicated to have both of your hands occupied. You might consider switching to sword and shield, picking up the dueling or defense fighting styles, and taking War Caster as your starting feat.

I didn't even saw that in the PHB! I could switch it for another rapier. I don't think my DM would allow me to change the rest since we've already started the campaign


2. You might want to take a pass on Blade Ward. I'm not a huge regular on these boards, but in what time I've spent here, I've never seen anyone say good things about it. It eats up your action until you get War Magic at level seven (at which point it will still eat up your action, but at least you'll still be able to attack once), and that's an awfully steep price to pay.

What would you suggest instead of Blade Ward?


3. At level six, I would recommend bumping a stat. That +5 is hard to compete with.
Between dex and con which would you choose? (they'll be my 18 stats)



4. At level eight, you should be able to take mirror image as one of your out-of-school spells. It seems like a good pick to me, but I'm no expert.

That's good, i really like the effect that it does and can easily make you avoid at least one hit.

[Goodberry]

Forget about Int and take Resilient(Dex) feat at level 4. You're not really casting spells that rely on saves/attack rolls. At 6 take +2 Dex.

[Joe the Rat]

Ditto on Warcaster. You'll need it to cast while dual-wielding (other than GFB). Swapping Blade Ward for a ranged attack cantrip would save you the trouble of weapon-switching as you move from ranged to melee, plus the cool factor of shooting ice (which slows) or spectral skeletal hands (which prevent healing/regeneration) from the end of your rapier. The gravy here is being able to throw GFB as an opportunity attack. They run, you swing at them for smite-like damage, and possibly singe one of their buddies.

I'm also a fan of Shocking Grasp, but that's more of a "get out of melee free" cantrip (target can't take reactions, so no opportunity attack against you), and does double-load you on the melee-range cantrips.

[psychopomp23]

You're right about the resilient dex feat, I think I'll do that. I'm still not sure about choosing to many range attack with the INT dc. Shocking grasp looks interesting tho. Thanks for the suggestions. Any other concerning non evo and abj spells I could choose?

[Person_Man]

I personally consider Eldritch Knight to be a terrible sub-class. Your spell progression and spell selection are literally the slowest in the game, and your signature sub-class ability (the ability to cast a cantrip + make 1 attack) can't be used with one of your signature class abilities (Extra Attack 2 and 3 and 4). Also, IIRC the cantrip + 1 attack ability can't be used with Two Weapon Fighting, but I'm away from my book right now and can't say for sure. The EK sub-class also has the semi-required Feat tax of Warcaster, which other sub-classes wouldn't need. And if you use spells with a Saving Throw, it requires that you put more Ability Score points into Int, which makes you MAD. You might want to consider Battlemaster instead.

If you do stick with EK or the standard "Gish" concept in general, then consider multi-classing into an Int or Cha based full caster. Fighter 2 is an excellent start to many builds, and EK Fighter 5 or 6 is not a terrible choice if you want to rely on melee attacks + buffs from a full caster class. But beyond that, the sub-class is just a mess.

[bid]

I'm also a fan of Shocking Grasp, but that's more of a "get out of melee free" cantrip (target can't take reactions, so no opportunity attack against you), and does double-load you on the melee-range cantrips.
Yada yada disengage. You're much better with mage hand or another utility cantrip.

[Daishain]

Any other concerning non evo and abj spells I could choose?

1st level: I loves me some Find Familiar for both flavor and scouting purposes. If other casters in the group have a familiar, the mechanical benefits go down a bit. and I would probably suggest Silent Image or a utility option like Feather Fall in that case.

2nd level: toss up between Misty Step and Mirror Image. Blur is also a contender but takes concentration. If in a campaign with limited access to magic weapons, Magic Weapon can be a godsend.

3rd level: HASTE!

4th level: lots of possibilities at this level. Polymorph is probably the most versatile, just don't cast it on enemies. I'm sure you can think of things to do with Greater Invisibility. And finally, Evard's black tentacles gives you your first good AOE control option if such is needed


Note: I'm not as pessimistic about the subclass as personman, an EK can indeed make an effective character. However, it does have its weaknesses. If your DM is willing to consider homebrew material, there are a couple of 'fixes' located on these forums for use. Some go too far the other way and are overpowered, but others are useable.

[Mara]

EK is not a bad subclass. It is arguably the strongest fighter variant.

[MrStabby]

EK is not a bad subclass. It is arguably the strongest fighter variant.

I think this depends on level and if it is multiclassed. BM is very front-loaded so probably takes it at low levels and with multiclassing. EK is certainly pretty solid though.

[psychopomp23]

Thanks everyone for the suggestions!

[Citan]

Hi everyone,

I'm currently in my first 5th edition game and i decided to make a Fighter. We are now level 2 and i started looking at the Eldritch Knight archetype. Our quest should have us finish around lv. 8 so i'm trying to look at what i should do in my futur levels.

Race: Half elf
Lv. 2 Fighter/BG Soldier Fighting Style(Two-Weapon Fighting)
HP: 25

Current stats (we rolled 4d6 and re-rolled 1's and took the 3highest die)
Str: 16
Dex: 17
Con:18
Int: 15
Wis:13
Cha:16

Hi!
You're lucky to have such good stats, I envy you. ^^
To answer your questions.
1. Lance: already taken care of.
2. Same: Blade Ward is good on paper but requires action. I'd suggest rather Mage Hand (always funny things to do with it) or a ranged attack cantrip (I second Joe the Rat propositions).
3. If you want to up a stat, DEX without hesitation: it's your main stat for attack and defense, especially since you don't plan to rely on attack spells.
4. Mirror Image is great, especially with a maxed DEX. Also, it's non-concentration so stackable with something else. Otherwise, Misty Step is always nice. Invisibility is a contender in another category, as well as Enlarge/Reduce (much more situational though).

Also, Melf's Acid Arrow is nice, but if you want a more versatile spell I'd suggest Scorching Ray. It's fire, so you will have a few dozen enemies it's useless against (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?379165-MM-Resistances-Immunities-Vulnerabilities-and-Damage).
For all others, it's an attack that is versatile (either concentrate against a single enemy or disperse), scales good (one more ray per level), and may have better chance to do at least some damage (since you make a roll for each attack, instead of betting everything on a single roll).

@Person_Man: while I prefer EK multiclassed beyond level 11 to get some nice combinations, I really wonder if you really tried to understand and play the class.
Madness? Well, clearly not more than basic Barbarian or Paladin, arguably less depending on how you make the build.
Warcaster tax? Depends on build and spell choice. It's always nice to have, not always a mandatory passage.
Also, the core ability imo is not the bonus attack when casting a spell, but the fact that you can give disadvantage to an enemy on a saving throw (which largely compensates a non-maxed INT) which comes at 10.
Spell progression? Sure, it's scarce, but you are still a martial at core, so it shouldn't be a problem (you STILL get 4 attacks per turn at the end). 11 spells isn't something to sneer at. :)
I love Battlemaster because I love manoeuvers, and it's a resource easy to use and track. But I don't see how EK could be considered inferior considering how many things it can have for him.

Also, if you played it and really felt underpowered, ask your DM if you can give it a try with spellpoints system. You will feel much better, since you can spend the "mana resource" much more efficiently.

[tieren]

I wouldn't recommend going into EK if your intent is to cast damage spells.

As has been mentioned the progression is way too slow, by the time you can cast fireball for instance your base fireball is doing piddling damage compared to everyone else.

However, I do like EK for the abjuration spells. Think about shield for instance, cast as a reaction and can negate a hit, thats pretty handy for a tanky front line fighter guy. Mechanically keep your damage coming from your weapon attacks and use your spells for defense and buffs, keep your cantrips for utility and you can end up with a really decent character mechanically and conceptually.

[eastmabl]

For a melee-friendly spells, try to focus on spells which target a saving throw. If you're in melee, there's no penalty in using them. Compare Burning Hands and its Dex saves to Melf's Acid Arrow, where you suffer disadvantage on attacks if you're stuck in melee.

Now, if you want to be an archer EK, that becomes a different story - melee is something you want to avoid generally.

[psychopomp23]

You're lucky to have such good stats, I envy you. ^^

Yeah i know! It's been a while since i had rolled such good stats but my other two friends got even better stats!


2. Same: Blade Ward is good on paper but requires action. I'd suggest rather Mage Hand (always funny things to do with it) or a ranged attack cantrip (I second Joe the Rat propositions).

I think i'll take Shocking grasp and mage hand as cantrips


3. If you want to up a stat, DEX without hesitation: it's your main stat for attack and defense, especially since you don't plan to rely on attack spells.

True, thanks.


4. Mirror Image is great, especially with a maxed DEX. Also, it's non-concentration so stackable with something else. Otherwise, Misty Step is always nice. Invisibility is a contender in another category, as well as Enlarge/Reduce (much more situational though).

Great to know that my idea of Mirror image was a good one.



Hi!
Also, Melf's Acid Arrow is nice, but if you want a more versatile spell I'd suggest Scorching Ray. It's fire, so you will have a few dozen enemies it's useless against.
For all others, it's an attack that is versatile (either concentrate against a single enemy or disperse), scales good (one more ray per level), and may have better chance to do at least some damage (since you make a roll for each attack, instead of betting everything on a single roll).

Scorching Ray makes sense; a chance to hit multiple targets or one many times.



Also, if you played it and really felt underpowered, ask your DM if you can give it a try with spellpoints system. You will feel much better, since you can spend the "mana resource" much more efficiently.
Since this campaign isn't proprably going to go over lv. 8 i don't think i'll really feel underpowered but spellpoints could be a good suggestion in case it does happen.

[psychopomp23]

I wouldn't recommend going into EK if your intent is to cast damage spells.

As has been mentioned the progression is way too slow, by the time you can cast fireball for instance your base fireball is doing piddling damage compared to everyone else.

However, I do like EK for the abjuration spells. Think about shield for instance, cast as a reaction and can negate a hit, thats pretty handy for a tanky front line fighter guy. Mechanically keep your damage coming from your weapon attacks and use your spells for defense and buffs, keep your cantrips for utility and you can end up with a really decent character mechanically and conceptually.

My intent is really more like what you said at the end aka surviving with more buff and slaying with my weapons. From what i've read here (and on the forum) i agree that the damage dealing is lower then a full casting class but that makes sense.

[psychopomp23]

For a melee-friendly spells, try to focus on spells which target a saving throw. If you're in melee, there's no penalty in using them. Compare Burning Hands and its Dex saves to Melf's Acid Arrow, where you suffer disadvantage on attacks if you're stuck in melee.

Now, if you want to be an archer EK, that becomes a different story - melee is something you want to avoid generally.


I only plan to use range attack (bow or spell) when they'll be too far away to reach with my rapiers :)

[tieren]

My intent is really more like what you said at the end aka surviving with more buff and slaying with my weapons. From what i've read here (and on the forum) i agree that the damage dealing is lower then a full casting class but that makes sense.

Thats good.

Don't miss the best aspect of that idea, which is you do not need Int, at all, it can literally be a dump stat, as long as you're not making attack rolls or saves against your spell DC it is moot, and there are still plenty of decent spells to choose from (like shield, mirror image, tiny hut, etc...).

[djreynolds]

#1. You have awesome stats. But really you need war caster asap, coupled with your proficiency in con you'll never fail saves all that often. Plus you can use a spell on a opportunity attack.

#2 Your stats are so good, I would wait on upping them. I might be inclined to take elemental adept for a cantrip purposes. Normally I wouldn't suggest this, but your stats are awesome and you can afford this.

#3 Do not be afraid after level 12 of EK, to go with wizard. You have your 3 attacks, plate armor + shield + rapier is a great combo coupled with stoneskin is very tanky. Now you'll have plenty of spell utility. Also abjuration will give you access to arcane ward for more protection

#4 When it comes time for archery, haste is a great spell but your ranger can fill this, unless he's the strength type. But the key is using that cantrip after attacking and elemental adept will help with some resistance. So go ahead and melee.

Enjoy. Mirror image is non concentration, so you want this spell.

[mealar]

Question about war magic, my guys a melee ek and wondering if it's actually that useful.
If you want to hit something at range you won't get the melee attack, unless there's someone in melee in which case the spell has disadvantage. And if you use a melee spell like shocking grasp it won't be as much dmg as you don't add your modifier (my guy has rapier so it's the same dice).
So just wondering does it actually help my dmg or just for being able to cast bladeward and still get an attack?

[Mara]

Question about war magic, my guys a melee ek and wondering if it's actually that useful.
If you want to hit something at range you won't get the melee attack, unless there's someone in melee in which case the spell has disadvantage. And if you use a melee spell like shocking grasp it won't be as much dmg as you don't add your modifier (my guy has rapier so it's the same dice).
So just wondering does it actually help my dmg or just for being able to cast bladeward and still get an attack?

Bladeward is the big draw of the feature.

You can also range cantrip and make one weapon attack. So for an EK it lets you cast a cantrip, draw a javelin and throw it. Which is more range damage than you would normally do if you were low dex high strength. Throwing weapons seems to be hard in 5e since you only have one use object action to draw one.

[MrCeeJ]

I personally consider Eldritch Knight to be a terrible sub-class. Your spell progression and spell selection are literally the slowest in the game, and your signature sub-class ability (the ability to cast a cantrip + make 1 attack) can't be used with one of your signature class abilities (Extra Attack 2 and 3 and 4). Also, IIRC the cantrip + 1 attack ability can't be used with Two Weapon Fighting, but I'm away from my book right now and can't say for sure. The EK sub-class also has the semi-required Feat tax of Warcaster, which other sub-classes wouldn't need. And if you use spells with a Saving Throw, it requires that you put more Ability Score points into Int, which makes you MAD. You might want to consider Battlemaster instead.

If you do stick with EK or the standard "Gish" concept in general, then consider multi-classing into an Int or Cha based full caster. Fighter 2 is an excellent start to many builds, and EK Fighter 5 or 6 is not a terrible choice if you want to rely on melee attacks + buffs from a full caster class. But beyond that, the sub-class is just a mess.

I think you're forgetting some main points about EK. It's not supposed to be a frontline fighter AND full caster. It is a utility sub-class that allows you to give and take damage on the front lines, while casting utility spells and some ranged spells if a target is too far away.

I agree that before Booming Blade and Green flame blade came along, EK was a harder sell. Now, however, I believe the class is made to be built around those two cantrips, especially once you hit level 7. BB and GFB upgrade in damage at the same points that you would receive your extra attacks, and depending on what weapons you're using, could cause the same amount of damage as would a second or 3rd attack. For instance:

Level 5 EK, using BB or GFB instead of Extra Attack, would do the same damage if wielding a long sword (1d8 on top of your weapon attack). The only thing you miss out on is the potential of rolling a critical for the second attack. I use a great sword and I still don't mind the trade off because of the added effects from both depending on the situation.

At level 11 EK, your cantrip damage increases by an additional 1d8, just like your 3rd attack if using a longsword.

You get the idea. EK's aren't supposed to be fire bolt-slingin', blade swingin', mage-tanks. You're still a powerful front-line fighter, just with some magical tools. BB and GFB allow you to get past any physical damage resistance by adding some magic damaged to your attacks and don't take away from missing out on your extra attacks.

Once you hit 7, you get your war magic which does the magic damage, plus you weapons damage and then you get another swing. It keeps up pretty well.

I do believe that if you think you're going to be swinging a sword and casting the most powerful spells in the game, then you have the wrong idea of what an EK is.

[Specter]

Forget TWF, when War Magic comes around it will be nigh useless since your bonus action will be occupied. Go dueling or defense for happiness.

Also, your 3rd level off-school spell could be better spent with Find Familiar (advantage/scouting) or Fog Cloud (for a panic button/diversion). More info on my guide below.

And Mirror Image/Blur can be obtained at level 8 for extra defense.

[Sir cryosin]

Ask your DM if you can respec your character. You didn't understand all options and how things work. Your lv 2 right now Any DM should be find with it. Now if tour only going to 8 ek is nice. You want to go sword and shield or greatsword cantrips you want are greenflame blade and minor illusion, at lv 7 you can cast GFB and bonus action attack. So your not missing out on your 2 attacks but gaining a extra d8 damge front the spell. Now if you go sword and shield your feat you want to change to warcaster and pick the dueling fighting style. Now for greatsword your feat you'll want lucky,great weapons master, Sentinel, magic initiative, or anything that meets your fancy. Spell choices are shield, expeditious retreat, and any that the other people mention.