That Damn Crab?

[Nashira]

I keep hearing about this thing, what is it and why is it so seemingly infamous?

[ComaVision]

Holy ****! Did you see that stupid Giant Crab linked from Skip's Tirade about how only through Zen can Item Prices be determined through the power of a rigid formulae? Here it is again (half way down the page): (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fw/20040221a)
Giant Fvcking Crabs! Scroll about halfway down page!

OK, what do we notice?

First of all, it's CR three. And it's a bruiser. But it's also a fast bruiser - land speed of 40 and has a swim speed. It's got real bruiser status - large size and a 13.5 point attack. Two 13.5 point attacks.

Secondly, unlike other CR 3 bruisers, its relatively weak Will save means precisely ****, because it's a Vermin, and immune to anything a 3rd level party can dish out with a Will save.

Finally, we note that it has improved grab and a grapple bonus of 19. Also, it has 66 hit points and an AC of 19.

So how does combat with it work out? Like this, every damn time:

Round One: Giant Crab charges 80 feet and reaches out and touches someone (10' reach) for a +12 attack bonus. Then it does 13.5 damage. Then it Grapples, which it wins, and inflicts another 13.5 damage of constriction.

Round 2: Having just inflicted 27 points of damage on a 3rd level character in one round, it hurls the bloody carcass over its head and repeats the process with some other hapless 3rd level PC who happens to be within its 90 foot charge range.

Round 3: Having dispatched 2 PCs, it takes out the third PC.

Round Four: Assuming that the final character has not gotten a rush of brains to the head and hid, the Crab finishes off the last player character and dances around.

Motherfvckers! What the hell CR mismanagement is that ****!? This isn't one of those "It's a huge ass scorpion, dumbass, don't melee it!" problems - this is CR 3. You don't have any choice.




En garde, bitches.

-Frank

MOD EDIT: The original link no longer worked. It has now been updated.

There you go OP.

[AvatarVecna]

"That Damn Crab" is the Monstrous Crab (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fw/20040221a) (scroll down a bit), and it is CR 3. It's tactics are to use the surprise round to charge out of the ocean right at the party, attacking and grappling one; the next round, they retreat underwater and kill their catch.

Sound easy enough to deal with? Well it 80 ft charge distance, 10 ft reach, +10 to hit and deal 1d8+9 damage, grapple +19, and deals 1d8+9 to a target it successfully grapples, so that surprise round means it can hit you if you're within 90 ft of the water; it will hit, it will grapple you, and it will deal 2d8+18 damage to you. And if the party can't hit its AC 19 enough times to deal 66 damage to it, it retreats back into the sea.

Oh yeah, and most of the tactics that make brutes like this super-easy to defeat, the ones that focus on mental manipulation? They don't work because it's mindless.

[Essence_of_War]

I keep hearing about this thing, what is it and why is it so seemingly infamous?

http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fw/20040221a


Monstrous Crab
Large Vermin (Aquatic)
Hit Dice: 7d8+35 (66 hp)
Initiative: +2
Speed: 40 ft. (8 squares), swim 30 ft. (6 squares)
Armor Class: 19 (-1 size, +2 Dex, +8 natural), touch 11, flat-footed 17
Base Attack/Grapple: +5/+19
Attack: Claw +10 melee (1d8+9)
Full Attack: 2 claws +10 melee (1d8+9)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./10 ft.
Special Attacks: Constrict 1d8+9, improved grab, powerful claws
Special Qualities: Amphibious, darkvision 60 ft., vermin traits
Saves: Fort +10, Ref +4, Will +2
Abilities: Str 22, Dex 14, Con 21, Int --, Wis 10, Cha 2
Skills: --
Feats: --
Environment: Temperate coastal
Organization: Solitary, pair, or swarm (6-10)
Challenge Rating: 3
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: 8-10 HD (Large), 11-21 HD (Huge)
Level Adjustment: --

This massive creature scuttles about with surprising speed and grace for its size. Its shell is brightly colored in shades of deep orange to bone white, and its twin claws are both sharp and large enough to behead a horse with one slice.

Monstrous crabs are scavengers, and they feed upon the reeking bodies of dead sea creatures that wash up on shore. Despite this, they aren't above attacking still-living creatures upon sight, since monstrous crabs are always hungry.

They're a WotC web supplement monster. 66 HP. A scary attack routine that includes improved grab, constrict, a really high grapple, reach. And they are CR 3. Because lolz. Good luck killing one of these with a 4 man ECL 3 party. Good luck killing one of these as a "challenging" or "Difficult" encounter for an ECL 1/2 party. This is a TPK on a stick if you throw it at a party that is expecting an Ogre (also CR 3).




Constrict (Ex): With a successful grapple check, a monstrous crab can crush a grabbed opponent, dealing 1d8+9 points of bludgeoning damage.

Improved Grab (Ex): If a monstrous crab hits an opponent that is at least one size category smaller than itself with a claw attack, it deals normal damage and attempts to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. If it gets a hold, it also constricts on the same round.

Powerful Claws (Ex): A monstrous crab always applies 1.5 times its Strength modifier to damage inflicted with its claws. Additionally, it gains a +4 racial bonus on grapple checks.

[AvatarVecna]

About the only Core way to give the party a chance against this thing is Glitterdust: if the wizard has it prepared (because Sorcerers don't have level 2 spells at Sorcerer 3), and That Damn Crab fails its Will save (which it actually has to make for this spell), the spell blinds it for 3 rounds. That gives everybody 50% miss chance against its attacks, it has to move at half speed and has to guess at what squares to target with its attacks, and it's AC is lowered to a more manageable 15. This isn't a perfect thing, because it can still make the save, and it can still retreat into the sea with its grappled target in two rounds, and it still has 66 HP, but it gives you a chance at least.

[danzibr]

There you go OP.
Ahhhh this is the best laugh I've had in a while.

EDIT: I'm suddenly tempted to make a "campaign" where the players are encouraged to make optimized characters expecting to do battle with inappropriately CR'ed creature. Throw stuff like Allips and this at them.

[PsyBomb]

Ahhhh this is the best laugh I've had in a while.

EDIT: I'm suddenly tempted to make a "campaign" where the players are encouraged to make optimized characters expecting to do battle with inappropriately CR'ed creature. Throw stuff like Allips and this at them.

Don't forget the Runehound! There was a build challenge a while back for a 1-20 build able to solo several threats, and THAT one took out 75% of all comers. I beat it with a VoP Totemist abusing Touch of Golden Ice, but yeesh. Thank goodness it was Evil.

Yeah, TDC is worse by a decent bit. Mindless and True Neutral make it a real pain to find a weakness.

[AvatarVecna]

There's a CR 9 creature (the Adamantine Horror) that gets Disintegrate, Disjunction, and Implosion as at-will SLAs.

[Troacctid]

Note that it is an older version of the monster; it was reprinted in Stormwrack with a more appropriate CR.

[Vhaidara]

There's a CR 9 creature (the Adamantine Horror) that gets Disintegrate, Disjunction, and Implosion as at-will SLAs.

The best part about that is its Organization. It doesn't come solo, only with a hoard of minions you have to wade through to reach it. While it's imploding you.

[AvatarVecna]

The best part about that is its Organization. It doesn't come solo, only with a hoard of minions you have to wade through to reach it. While it's imploding you.

Those minions are why it's CR 9: it's not supposed to be encountered on its own, it's supposed to be a mob to go against a high-level party. On its own, though, it's just a brutal "balanced encounter" for a CR 9.

[Vhaidara]

Those minions are why it's CR 9: it's not supposed to be encountered on its own, it's supposed to be a mob to go against a high-level party. On its own, though, it's just a brutal "balanced encounter" for a CR 9.

Actually, is CR covered for creatures that cannot be encountered alone? Because the really terrifying thought (and the one I could totally see WotC following) is that it is CRed with the minions included. As in, at level 9, you should be able to beat this, and all of its minions, while consuming only 20-25% of daily resources.

Oh, that's the other thing to remember: CR = Level = 20-25% of resources consumed. As in you should be able to fight 3-4 of these before running out of steam.

[AvatarVecna]

Actually, is CR covered for creatures that cannot be encountered alone? Because the really terrifying thought (and the one I could totally see WotC following) is that it is CRed with the minions included. As in, at level 9, you should be able to beat this, and all of its minions, while consuming only 20-25% of daily resources.

Oh, that's the other thing to remember: CR = Level = 20-25% of resources consumed. As in you should be able to fight 3-4 of these before running out of steam.

CR only takes that particular monster into account...at least, it's supposed to. The entire group is a good challenge for a high-level party, but individually...

[Threadnaught]

Ahhhh this is the best laugh I've had in a while.

EDIT: I'm suddenly tempted to make a "campaign" where the players are encouraged to make optimized characters expecting to do battle with inappropriately CR'ed creature. Throw stuff like Allips and this at them.

I had the Stupid and Lame (http://www.goblinscomic.org/01282011/) idea after seeing the thread of inappropriately CRed monsters danzibr.


Looks like Maiming Strike could be useful against the Crab, but that is entirely build dependent.
Shivering Touch (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/lesserSpellName.htm) may help a little, 3-18 Dexterity Damage (average 10.5), not perfect, it still has an average of 3.5 (heh) Dex remaining after the Spell, but that's doable, also its AC should drop by about 2-7 (average is 5.5) and if its Dex goes all the way down to 0, melee characters get +11 to hit it.
I think I damn near just killed this thing.

I knew prepping Shivering Touch (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/lesserSpellName.htm) would come in handy. :smallamused:

[Vhaidara]

Yes, but threadnaught, you ignore the point I made: If you're level 3, and it's CR 3, you are supposed to fight 3-4 of them in a day.

[AvatarVecna]

I had the Stupid and Lame (http://www.goblinscomic.org/01282011/) idea after seeing the thread of inappropriately CRed monsters danzibr.


Looks like Maiming Strike could be useful against the Crab, but that is entirely build dependent.
Shivering Touch (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/lesserSpellName.htm) may help a little, 3-18 Dexterity Damage (average 10.5), not perfect, it still has an average of 3.5 (heh) Dex remaining after the Spell, but that's doable, also its AC should drop by about 2-7 (average is 5.5) and if its Dex goes all the way down to 0, melee characters get +11 to hit it.
I think I damn near just killed this thing.

I knew prepping Shivering Touch (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/lesserSpellName.htm) would come in handy. :smallamused:

Shivering Touch is a 3rd level spell, so it kicks in at 5th level. At 3rd level, you've got access to Lesser Shivering Touch, but that only does 1d6 Dex damage. At best, that's a -3 to AC, which is still worse than Glitterdust (although for a level lower).

[Psyren]

Secondly, unlike other CR 3 bruisers, its relatively weak Will save means precisely ****, because it's a Vermin, and immune to anything a 3rd level party can dish out with a Will save.

Point of order here - you can fool it with a Silent Image if you're clever. It's mindless and doesn't have scent. so if you throw up a wall it will have to roll to disbelieve, and then only if it saw you first. It also has low initiative.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Looks like Maiming Strike could be useful against the Crab, but that is entirely build dependent.
Shivering Touch (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/lesserSpellName.htm) may help a little, 3-18 Dexterity Damage (average 10.5), not perfect, it still has an average of 3.5 (heh) Dex remaining after the Spell, but that's doable, also its AC should drop by about 2-7 (average is 5.5) and if its Dex goes all the way down to 0, melee characters get +11 to hit it.
I think I damn near just killed this thing.

I knew prepping Shivering Touch (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/lesserSpellName.htm) would come in handy. :smallamused:

Yes, let's walk our squishy caster self into melee range with the crab that has 10ft reach. What's it going to do, use an AoO? Our mighty d4 HD will protect us.

You're just making it easier for the crab to kill you. Even if you manage to get into touch range, you have about 50/50 chance your touch attack will miss at that low a level.
Even if it hits it's unlikely to disable the crab completely, leaving you standing in melee range with a critter that can kill you with one hit.

[Threadnaught]

Yes, but threadnaught, you ignore the point I made: If you're level 3, and it's CR 3, you are supposed to fight 3-4 of them in a day.

Nah, not ignoring, just trying to find a way to take out one, dealing up to 18 Dex damage over 3 rounds seems good. There's no good solution to beating this thing at level 3, ever.

If all the Charisma damaging options weren't Mind Affecting, that'd work, but it's immune.
Yes, let's walk our squishy caster self into melee range with the crab that has 10ft reach. What's it going to do, use an AoO? Our mighty d4 HD will protect us.

You're just making it easier for the crab to kill you. Even if you manage to get into touch range, you have about 50/50 chance your touch attack will miss at that low a level.
Even if it hits it's unlikely to disable the crab completely, leaving you standing in melee range with a critter that can kill you with one hit.

For getting into range there's Spectral Hand, if you're not feeling lucky and are able to react quickly enough to hit the beast.
It can't do anything about the Hand, so as long as you have the Spell in effect (get lucky), you can hit it with a Touch Attack. It doesn't get a save, it has no Spell Resistance, it takes 3-18 Dex Damage, cross your fingers that it collapses before you die.

Glitterdust is the same strategy. Cast this Spell and cross your fingers not to die.

[AvatarVecna]

Glitterdust is the same strategy. Cast this Spell and cross your fingers not to die.

I would like to point out that Glitterdust at least has range without casting another spell.

[Bucky]

Yes, but threadnaught, you ignore the point I made: If you're level 3, and it's CR 3, you are supposed to fight 3-4 of them in a day.

Or as the main encounter for the day at level 2.

[sleepyphoenixx]

For getting into range there's Spectral Hand, if you're not feeling lucky and are able to react quickly enough to hit the beast.
It can't do anything about the Hand, so as long as you have the Spell in effect (get lucky), you can hit it with a Touch Attack. It doesn't get a save, it has no Spell Resistance, it takes 3-18 Dex Damage, cross your fingers that it collapses before you die.

Glitterdust is the same strategy. Cast this Spell and cross your fingers not to die.

Let's stay realistic. At level 3 you likely won't even prepare Spectral Hand. Even if you do, it lasts 3 minutes so it's unlikely to be up.

I can buy not getting surprised. The thing doesn't have hide after all.
I can buy winning initiative, since many wizards trade Scribe Scroll for Improved Initiative and get at least some Dex.
But at level 3 the only buffs you're going to have up in a random encounter are going to be hour/level ones, and not many at that.
Anything that requires more than one round to implement means you're likely dead before you can use it.
Anything that has a greater than 50% chance to fail is a last resort, not a strategy.

So yeah, Glitterdust is a realistic option. It targets will, which is the crabs weak save. It's a staple spell, so chances are a wizard will have it prepared. The only problem is that it will only last 3 rounds even if it works, which is likely not enough time to kill the crab unless your party is highly optimized, but it gives you time to come up with something more.

Entangle is another good option. Every druid prepares Entangle. It targets reflex, which is a little higher than will but still more likely to work than not (barely). Even if the crab makes the save it can only move at half speed, and the big area means you get another chance the next round.
The only downside is that it requires plant life, which could be a problem in the crabs preferred habitat.
You can also use Impeding Stones (Cityscape) which shares many of the good attributes of Entangle and only requires a stone or earth surface.

Make your meatshields carry a net or two (if they don't have the Int to do it on their own). It's a pretty good supplement for Glitterdust, it's cheap and easy to use even without EWP and it's a generally useful bit of gear to have on hand.
After that stay at range and kill it with bows and crossbows, because it's only going to break the net on a 19 or 20 and even that takes a full round.

The point is that you need to find a way to kill it without special preparation, because it's likely not a boss encounter. You just run into a crab and try not to die with what you have on hand.

[Threadnaught]

Let's stay realistic.

The only realistic option I can see it, rolling a new character.


So yeah, Glitterdust is a realistic option.

It's optimistic. Glitterdust is a 2nd level Conjuration Spell, DC at least 12, on that the Crab needs a roll of 10 or higher (55%). Let's say +2 Intelligence Race with maximum roll/point buy for Intelligence that's another +5, Crab needs 15, still doable (30%). Except the Wizard may have a +2 Intelligence Item, so Crab needs 16 (25%). Okay not bad, but the Crab still has a 25% chance of being unaffected, that's far too much when it still has a 50% chance of hitting/killing someone within the 75% failure chance. Feat selection, let's blow our two Feats on Spell Focus Conjuration and Greater Spell Focus Conjuration, Crab needs 18 or higher to save (15%).

No my way isn't better, it's worse but can be used for assassination/kidnapping outside of combat.


The point is that you need to find a way to kill it without special preparation, because it's likely not a boss encounter. You just run into a crab and try not to die with what you have on hand.

All we have is special preparation or luck.
Because there's no reasonable way to beat it if it's thrown at a level 3 party.

[Vhaidara]

It's optimistic. Glitterdust is a 2nd level Conjuration Spell, DC at least 12,

Point of order, minimum DC 13. Base 12, and requires a 12 casting mod to cast.

[ExLibrisMortis]

I feel like awakening this crab and putting a level of crusader on it. It'll be a great all-round soldier, very nice with Martial Spirit and Crusader's Strike.

[Thurbane]

If you want to be a real RBDM, what templates could you throw on it without pumping it's CR into reasonable levels?
Rat B*stard DM

[LudicSavant]

There's a CR 9 creature (the Adamantine Horror) that gets Disintegrate, Disjunction, and Implosion as at-will SLAs.

Oh, Monster Manual II. If it's not Adamantine Horrors for Team Monster, it's Warbeasts and Desmodu Hunting Bats for Team Adventurer.

[sleepyphoenixx]

It's optimistic. Glitterdust is a 2nd level Conjuration Spell, DC at least 12, on that the Crab needs a roll of 10 or higher (55%). Let's say +2 Intelligence Race with maximum roll/point buy for Intelligence that's another +5, Crab needs 15, still doable (30%). Except the Wizard may have a +2 Intelligence Item, so Crab needs 16 (25%). Okay not bad, but the Crab still has a 25% chance of being unaffected, that's far too much when it still has a 50% chance of hitting/killing someone within the 75% failure chance. Feat selection, let's blow our two Feats on Spell Focus Conjuration and Greater Spell Focus Conjuration, Crab needs 18 or higher to save (15%).

No my way isn't better, it's worse but can be used for assassination/kidnapping outside of combat.

All we have is special preparation or luck.
Because there's no reasonable way to beat it if it's thrown at a level 3 party.

There is no certainty at level 3 no matter what you use.
Druids have it easier in this case, since both Entangle and Impeding Stones have a 40ft radius, require a new save every round, last 1 minute/level and halve speed even on a successful save. Unless you're spectacularly unlucky or stupid that means you can at least flee. If you aim right you have 3-4 chances for the thing to fail a save before it reaches you, and once it does you can kill it at range.

If you can get a net on it without dying (tricky, but not impossible) chances are you can kill it before it manages the strength check to break out. If you're lucky one of your martials took EWP:Harpoon, but that's hardly something to count on. Once its speed is halved and it can no longer charge it's just a matter of staying at range and shooting it until it dies.

[martixy]

While we're on this topic: What other wildly mis-CRed monsters do we have?
TDC, Allips, there was a shadow thingie...? Or was it the actual "Shadow" creature?

And on that note, what are the most mis-CRed templates?

[ericgrau]

About the only Core way to give the party a chance against this thing is Glitterdust: if the wizard has it prepared (because Sorcerers don't have level 2 spells at Sorcerer 3), and That Damn Crab fails its Will save (which it actually has to make for this spell), the spell blinds it for 3 rounds. That gives everybody 50% miss chance against its attacks, it has to move at half speed and has to guess at what squares to target with its attacks, and it's AC is lowered to a more manageable 15. This isn't a perfect thing, because it can still make the save, and it can still retreat into the sea with its grappled target in two rounds, and it still has 66 HP, but it gives you a chance at least.
Actually with a +2 will save against a DC of probably 15-17 glitterdust works pretty well. It has no listen check to speak of, just a +0 from wisdom against DC 20 so it's unlikely to find PCs except by extreme luck.

Other than glitterdust spamming it is way too powerful though. Even with glitterdust it might go before at least 1 PC who rolls low on initiative and grab a party member before being blinded. And if you don't know what you're fighting you might be reluctant to get your ally inside the glitterdust. He doesn't need sight to figure out the general direction of the water. So with careful planning, knowing exactly what this is and being willing to sacrifice 1 ally without hesitation, you'll probably only lose that 1 party member. He'll probably retreat into the water either after being blinded, or blinded and hurt a bit. Plus you can't damage it very fast. So you won't actually kill it. But you'll survive and be able to flee without getting chased down. Btw this is a glitterdust from a level 3 wizard so you have 3 rounds to hide. Get a move on.

EDIT: Come to think of it doing nothing then running away while your first lost ally is suffocating works just as well, so glitterdust isn't that useful.

EDIT 2: Nevermind. If you at least beat the crab's initiative you can glitterdust to buy your low initiative roll allies a chance to run.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Glitterdust is the only option a typical party will likely have, and it just won't last long enough. Especially if the party stays at range rather than pin their lives on that 50% miss chance in melee...PCs are still going to die.

In the original thread, someone noted that if you knew in advance about it, the entire party could get horses that are faster than the crab, use ranged attacks, and kite it to death. That would be an effective way for literally any class combination party to deal with it, but only if you can prepare for it. Most likely any humanoid who's ever seen TDC hasn't survived to tell about it, and if they did, they have a better chance against it than the party anyway.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Well, there is the mount spell, roughly the best first-level summons in the game, based on its duration. While the crab is eating the horse, you can kill it - it's flat-footed in a grapple.

[AvatarVecna]

Well, there is the mount spell, roughly the best first-level summons in the game, based on its duration. While the crab is eating the horse, you can kill it - it's flat-footed in a grapple.

This is all based on the assumption that you already had Mount cast when the crab attacked.

1) The crab would deal an average of 24.85 damage to the light horse, or 26.1 damage to the pony; either way, the odds of them surviving the crab's initial charge, attack, and grapple combo is extremely low, so at most they've saved you from a single round of attacks from the crab.

2) TDC's AC is only 2 points lower while grappling, so it's not a huge advantage.

3) Creatures summoned via spells of the Summoning sub-school disappear when they die, so the crab still has no dinner, and will still attack the rest of the party.

Conclusion: this spell, assuming you had it cast pre-encounter, has saved you from suffering the crab's assault during the surprise round, assuming the crab attacked it instead of the party members (a fair assumption).

[Karnith]

1) The crab would deal an average of 24.85 damage to the light horse, or 26.1 damage to the pony; either way, the odds of them surviving the crab's initial charge, attack, and grapple combo is extremely low, so at most they've saved you from a single round of attacks from the crab.
It is worth noting that TDC can't use its Improved Grab ability on a light horse, because the horse is Large. The horse would still get grappled to death, but it wouldn't die immediately.

[AvatarVecna]

It is worth noting that TDC can't use its Improved Grab ability on a light horse, because the horse is Large. The horse would still get grappled to death, but it wouldn't die immediately.

That's fair, although there's still a chance to kill the horse with the first attack (not great odds, but still).

[ExLibrisMortis]

If you say glitterdust buys you a 70% shot at 3 turns, mount buys you a 100% shot at 1-2 turns, assuming, of course, that you can put the horse right in between the whole party and the crab. It's not super, but it's an okay way to trade actions with the crab, at the cost of a 1st-level spell slot per turn (roughly). Maybe you should put the mount first, then glitterdust after that, so it's less immediately troubling if the crab saves.

[AvatarVecna]

That would definitely be the optimal strategy, but it requires that a 3rd level Wizard have both spells prepared (a decent assumption), and that losing your mount and a 2nd level spell to give your team a chance to defeat this crab is a better idea than keeping your horse and spell slot and just running away, which kinda depends on the wizard in question.

[Thurbane]

Just wondering if any other low level spells help even the odds: Ray of Enfeeblement, Grease, Summon Swarm, Blindness/Deafness, Summon Monster II, Sound Burst, Enlarge Person, Entangle, Summon Nature's Ally II, Soften Earth & Stone (not sure if this works on sand?)...

[ericgrau]

Glitterdust, entangle and so forth have a 50:50 chance of being viable depending on whether or not you beat both its initiative and its save. It may only have a +2, but most likely you only have a +1 to +3 too. Or if you took improved initiative, then you might not have taken greater spell focus. Etc. Otherwise it nabs an ally on its turn and anything else you do is moot because you can flee while your ally is drowning anyway.

Having 2+ party members with such a tactic increases your odds.

Contrary to what I thought before, it does make sense to cast one of the above instead of fleeing immediately because it's highly unlikely that the entire party will beat the crab's initiative. At least 1 ally will probably roll low.

[Thurbane]

I thought Blindness/Deafness might be a better option than Glitterdust (same range, permanent duration) - but I forgot that it's a Fort save; so +10 instead of +2.

[georgie_leech]

If you want to be a real RBDM, what templates could you throw on it without pumping it's CR into reasonable levels?
Rat B*stard DM

Not quite what you were asking for, but this made me think of Fax's ungodly monstrosity. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?57301-That-Pseudonatural-Paragon-Damn-Crab!)

[ericgrau]

Just wondering if any other low level spells help even the odds: Ray of Enfeeblement, Grease, Summon Swarm, Blindness/Deafness, Summon Monster II, Sound Burst, Enlarge Person, Entangle, Summon Nature's Ally II, Soften Earth & Stone (not sure if this works on sand?)...
-RoE: Not much since he'll still average a +6 or +7 to hit and the grapple check is nearly an auto pass
-Grease: 50:50 chance of a passed save and even then it only delays him 1 round as he crawls out of it. So not much use.
-Summon Swarm: Not at all: Casting time too long so you lose an ally and then he leaves. Then the swarm, which you don't control, attacks a PC. Nasueated limits him to a move action even if he fails the DC 12 fort save (only on a 1) after grabbing an ally. Which is fine by him since he only wanted to move anyway.
- Blindness/Deafness. Similar to glitterdust but yeah the fort save kills it. In spite of the permanent duration he has plenty of time to flee. Maybe you can count it as a kill since he might eventually starve to death with permanent blindness and a poor listen check. But this spell is rarely prepared because it is usually inferior to glitterdust. Turns out even now it's inferior.
- Summon monster/nature's ally II: Likewise casting time too long, ally dies and you are able to flee before the summon arrives, making it moot. Even then it has too little damage and hp to do much. It may often die and wink out before the crab can even drag it away.
- Enlarge person: Again casting time too long to be useful at all, also even if you do somehow manage to cast it, it makes you easier to hit and he still laughs at your grapple check.
- Sound burst: +10 fort save makes it unlikely.
- Entangle: Beaches usually don't have rooted plants. Scratch everything nice I said about this before.
- Soften Earth and Stone: Sandy is technically a soil type but I think most DM's will say "no sand is not earth because sand is not a kind of dirt".

So I guess that leaves glitterdust to help maybe half the time or a little under that. Good thing it's a popular spell.

Web could be better because it can slow him down even on a passed save. But you need 2 opposing vertical terrain features nearby for it to work.

[Platymus Pus]

- Soften Earth and Stone: Sandy is technically a soil type but I think most DM's will say "no sand is not earth because sand is not a kind of dirt".

So I guess that leaves glitterdust to help maybe half the time or a little under that. Good thing it's a popular spell.


Except sand is dirt. I'd slap the DM.

[AvatarVecna]

Except sand is dirt. I'd slap the DM.

I think the problem in reality would be less "Sand isn't dirt" and more "how are you softening sand, exactly? It's already sand."

[ryu]

I think the problem in reality would be less "Sand isn't dirt" and more "how are you softening sand, exactly? It's already sand."

Sand is still made of rock. Harder than dirt. It's just in small enough particles with no connection that you mistakenly think it's soft.

[Blackhawk748]

If you want to be a real RBDM, what templates could you throw on it without pumping it's CR into reasonable levels?
Rat B*stard DM

I used this as the basis for the Death Crab, which i used as the boss of The Forge of Fury module. Party of three, a Human Spirit Shaman, a Rankki Hobgoblin Barbbarian/Ranger, and a Half Orc Swashbuckler/Rogue all at 5th level. It was the first time i killed a PC, and that was only because they rolled bad for two rounds.

What The Death Crab was is a Half Troll That Damn Crab. The party spotted it hiding in the water, chugged some potions, (Blur, Enlarge Person, Shield, several of the Animal Stat ones) and then moved into its charge range. This stopped it from being able to grapple and upped their damage output. It was still a brutal fight, and the Barbar went down after a series of bad rolls, like if he had hit with his last attack he wouldnt have died.


Just wondering if any other low level spells help even the odds: Ray of Enfeeblement, Grease, Summon Swarm, Blindness/Deafness, Summon Monster II, Sound Burst, Enlarge Person, Entangle, Summon Nature's Ally II, Soften Earth & Stone (not sure if this works on sand?)...

Enlarge Person is crazy useful, as is Shield if you can get both on your beatstick, as Enlarge makes him immune to Imp Grab (which is a big deal) and the Shield spell boots the beatsticks AC (which i assume to be around 18-19) to about on par with the Crabs. Basically a fully buffed Barbarian can go toe to toe with the crab, but that means its not really CR 3.

[AvatarVecna]

Sand is still made of rock. Harder than dirt. It's just in small enough particles with no connection that you mistakenly think it's soft.

Oh yes absolutely. But the best you'll get is mud a few feet deep at the edge of the ocean. That might pose an issue for people used to moving on solid ground, but a giant crab moves through deep wet sand all day as part of living in the ocean. It's a perfectly reasonable call to make as a DM that the crab isn't as affected by this spell as most would be, partly because of its size and partly because of its natural environment.

Plus, even if it wasn't a reasonable call to make, it's the one that screws over the players; this call is being made by the same hypothetical DM who likely only knows about this crab from online discussions about how brokenly powerful it is, and is using it anyway. The second-most dependable assumption we can make (besides the crab's stats) is that the DM is doing this to screw over his players in some way.

[Platymus Pus]

I think the problem in reality would be less "Sand isn't dirt" and more "how are you softening sand, exactly? It's already sand."


When this spell is cast, all natural, undressed earth or stone in the spell’s area is softened. Wet earth becomes thick mud, dry earth becomes loose sand or dirt,
It'd just become loose sand.

I'd suggest the PF spell
Mire of Stone and Earth (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/3rd-party-spells/rite-publishing---3rd-party-spells/m/mire-of-stone-and-earth)

[ericgrau]

Yeah, the sand that is already soft and perhaps not even truly earth. And at worst you'd be halving the crab's speed due to loose sand, and as said such a thing affecting a crab is questionable.

I also noticed that spell is significantly weaker than I thought. Casting it on the most common dungeon floor type, stone, doesn't hinder enemies at all. It only makes digging easier and then only for a depth of 1 to 4 feet. It's pretty much only useful in wilderness dirt.

[Vizzerdrix]

Just wondering if any other low level spells help even the odds

The cantrip Stick, and a handful of black sand?

Hmm... Now I want to see what I could build that can handle TDC. I'm sure I could take it with alchemicals, I just need to remember what ones I'm thinking about. :smallconfused:

[ksbsnowowl]

While we're on this topic: What other wildly mis-CRed monsters do we have?
...
there was a shadow thingie...? Or was it the actual "Shadow" creature?

And on that note, what are the most mis-CRed templates?

There is a Shadow Creature template (Manual of the Planes, but the 3.5 version is in Lords of Madness).

The problem with the template stems from the fact that WotC simplified the concealment rules from 3.0 -> 3.5

The 3.0 version grants the shadow creature 9/10 concealment (40% miss chance) in anything but full daylight.
In 3.5 there is typically only concealment and total concealment. Just like the Shadow Mastiff if the MM1, the Shadow Creature template was changed to grant total concealment in anything but full daylight. The problem is, total concealment equals auto-succeeding on Hide checks, all the time, and since you are supernaturally creating your own concealment, you can auto-succeed at Hiding, even while standing next to a foe and attacking him.

You can't be targeted by spells, the only way to even know where you are standing is to have Arcane Sight active on one of the PC's (the Shadow Blend ability is Supernatural, and thus produces an aura that will tell the Arcane Seer what square you are in). Glitterdust doesn't even work, because all it's really doing is imposing a –40 penalty to Hide checks... but you still auto-succeed at Hide.

All that, plus more, for +2 CR.

[Frosty]

What is the new, updated CR for the monstrous Crab?

[ksbsnowowl]

What is the new, updated CR for the monstrous Crab?

CR 4

But it also has half the hit points (36, due to one less HD, and a MUCH lower Con score), lower AC (18 instead of 19), and a lower grapple modifier (+17 instead of +19; less HD for less BAB, and slightly lower Str). Its claw attacks are similarly lessened, and damage is 1d8+5 for the claws, and 2d8+5 for the constriction (as opposed to 1d8+9 for the claws, and 1d8+9 for the constriction for TDC).