Remind me why half elves are a bad race again?

[Masakan]

I'm just going over it again and I am seeing little to no downsides.
Sure not the best features in the world...but far from horrible.

[Thurbane]

That's the problem. No downsides, no upsides, just...meh. A few little bonuses here and there.

They don't get the weapon proficiencies, immunities, detect secret doors and trance ability of their Elf side; and don't get the bonus feat and skill points of their Human side.

They aren't the worst LA +0 race out there, but they are incredibly underwhelming, and quite bland IMHO.

[Masakan]

That's the problem. No downsides, no upsides, just...meh. A few little bonuses here and there.

They don't get the weapon proficiencies, immunities, detect secret doors and trance ability of their Elf side; and don't get the bonus feat and skill points of their Human side.

They aren't the worst LA +0 race out there, but they are incredibly underwhelming, and quite bland IMHO.
So the problem is they are painfully average huh?

[LTwerewolf]

So the problem is they are painfully average huh?

Name something they can do better than someone else.

[VoxRationis]

Simply put: They don't have the versatility of a human and they don't have the useful specialization of most other races. They don't have a bonus feat, or a bonus skill, like humans do. They don't have ability score adjustments that make you better at what you do, like a lot of other races. They trade half their racial elf bonuses to Spot, Search, and Listen for a bonus to the more situational Diplomacy and Gather Information. "Diplomancy" is a powerful tool, and a racial bonus to it, if you intend on abusing the skill, is nothing to scoff at, but a human, if they really want to, can just sink their bonus feat into Skill Focus (Diplomacy) or whatever gives Dip and something else a +2, and do just as well (regarding racial features alone, that is).

[Thurbane]

About the only thing Half-Elves have going for them is the Sociable Personality feat, which is pretty solid for Diplomancy - although once you pump bonuses on skills, the base roll becomes less important.

[Platymus Pus]

Name something they can do better than someone else.

Be an elf and a human at the same time.

[Vaern]

One of my favorite jokes...

Just one. Turns out they're useful for something after all.


Be an elf and a human at the same time.
I once had a cleric cohort who was reincarnated as an elf. Got all of the elf perks. Kept the bonus feat for starting as human. Clearly wins at being an elf and a human at the same time vs. a half-elf.

[Platymus Pus]

I once had a cleric cohort who was reincarnated as an elf. Got all of the elf perks. Kept the bonus feat for starting as human. Clearly wins at being an elf and a human at the same time vs. a half-elf.

Not at being a bastard child of both though.

[Troacctid]

Lack of upside is a downside, due to opportunity cost.

Let me put it this way. There is no "downside" to taking levels of Warrior (the NPC class)--it doesn't decrease your stats or anything. In fact, it increases your stats: you gain BAB, you gain HP, you gain skill points, your base saves improve, you even gain feats every three levels and ability score increases every four levels, and the whole package comes with armor and weapon proficiencies to boot. Would you say that Warrior is, in any way, a remotely acceptable class for a PC to take levels in?

[ekarney]

Most of them suck. If you're determined to play one, play a Deepwyrm Half Drow. They're probably the best mechanically of all the half-elves.

[tadkins]

At least they're much better in Pathfinder? xD

[Necroticplague]

I'm just going over it again and I am seeing little to no downsides.
Sure not the best features in the world...but far from horrible.

You're focusing on the wrong the wrong part. The reason they're bad is that they don't have any real upside. As you pointed out yourself, their racial abilities aren't very good. They don't have any weaknesses, but neither do humans. And humans have the ever-coveted bonus feat, and skill points that can be useful in literally every build. The reason a half-elf is considered a bad race is because, for every character, they're better off being some other race than half-elf. They lack the versatile "useful for pretty much anything" of humans, and the "we're bad at something things, but really good at others" of pretty much every other race.

[Doc_Maynot]

I usually run the Half-Human (Half-elf raised in elven lands instead of human lands). The DMG variant that trades the skill bonuses in Diplomacy and Gather Info with all straight bows, Longsword and Rapier. Gives me some options to DCS later.

[Vhaidara]

Be an elf and a human at the same time.

I can do that! Both fluffwise and mechanically.

Fluffwise, Human and Elf, with a bit of fluffy text about one parent not being of your mechanical race. Also, any Planetouched (Aasimar, Tiefling, Mechanitrix, etc) have unspecified parentage (it's 2+ generations back that they have outsider ancestry).

Mechanically, Changeling (via Racial Emulation) and Mongrelfolk.

[TheTeaMustFlow]

I usually run the Half-Human (Half-elf raised in elven lands instead of human lands). The DMG variant that trades the skill bonuses in Diplomacy and Gather Info with all straight bows, Longsword and Rapier. Gives me some options to DCS later.

You have a DM who allows DCS? I thought they were mythical, like non-annoying Kender.

[Grod_The_Giant]

So the problem is they are painfully average huh?
Not even. They just... don't do anything. Look at what they get: a few piddling skill bonuses, low-light vision (which I've never seen become relevant in an actual game), immunity to sleep and a +2 verses Enchantment spells. That's, like... maaaaaybe one thing worth having. They're not going to actively harm your character, but you might as well be playing without a race.

[tadkins]

Not even. They just... don't do anything. Look at what they get: a few piddling skill bonuses, low-light vision (which I've never seen become relevant in an actual game), immunity to sleep and a +2 verses Enchantment spells. That's, like... maaaaaybe one thing worth having. They're not going to actively harm your character, but you might as well be playing without a race.

New Race: The Raceless

[kalasulmar]

Two favored classes in Pathfinder could be a pretty good thing for certain builds.

The classes limited by race and level caps aspects of early editions still screams at me when these questions come up. I guess your first systems stay with you no matter how old you get.

[Doc_Maynot]

You have a DM who allows DCS? I thought they were mythical, like non-annoying Kender.


Level 5-30
32 PB.
All officially licensed and published 3.5 and Dragon Magazines allowed.
3.0 and 3rd Party available on request after looking through it.
I really don't have much in the way of houserules other than when building a character you can't spend more than half your WBL on a single item.
I typically run in the T1-T3 Range


My group typically plays at a higher power level. They typically keep the same rules as above even when I'm not DMing

[LudicSavant]

So the problem is they are painfully average huh?

No. The downside is the relative lack of upsides.

To put it another way, it's not enough to be better than nothing, because essentially every race offers features that are better than nothing. It would be like saying "well, I don't see why it's a bad feat, it's not like it gives me a penalty." In the case of good races, like Humans, it's quite a lot better than nothing. In the case of bad races, like half-elves, it's like you just gave up a feat (and/or some other features) for no particular reason.

To pick a half elf is only barely better than if you could forego racial features altogether, and that's awful.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

Others have already covered the base stats, bonuses, and opportunity cost issues here. About the only thing they do have going for them are their racial substitution levels and maybe one or two half-elf only feats. That being said, a lot of races have some good substitution levels, too, so unless you're barking up that particular class, you may still be better elsewhere.

[Necroticplague]

The downside is the relative lack of upsides.

Excellent way to put. By picking the race, you're giving up the benefits you could have by being another race. So it has an opportunity cost. And it doesn't give enough for its opportunity cost.

[nyjastul69]

One of the upsides of being a half-elf is that their favored class is any. If you choose to house rule this limitation away half-elves lose a great deal of value as a race.

[ericgrau]

They are a bad race. They are not a horrible race.

Immunity to sleep: a rare effect past level 2
A save bonus against enchantment: uncommon
low light vision: lighting often isn't tracked and this is minor even when it is
A +1 to 3 skills and a +2 to 2 more skills: skills are severely underused and a handful of +1s and +2s are minor even when they are used.

Total: Almost nothing. A +2 to a stat and a -2 to another stat is worth more all by itself. It seems a lot simpler but at least it will get used far far more often than all of the above put together. I didn't list elven blood because I've never used it or even seen or heard of it used in person or in a forum in all my years of gaming. At least not as far as I can remember.

Can you play one without sucking? Sure no problem. Missing out on any useful racial benefits isn't a big deal in D&D. Class and feat selection matter far more.

[Vhaidara]

One of the upsides of being a half-elf is that their favored class is any. If you choose to house rule this limitation away half-elves lose a great deal of value as a race.

That's just not right. Because their obvious competition on that front is human (one of the best races in the game) and illumian (again, very good race, and this time it's actually an interesting one)

[Necroticplague]

One of the upsides of being a half-elf is that their favored class is any. If you choose to house rule this limitation away half-elves lose a great deal of value as a race.

An advantage that humans also get. Still suffers from the "why not go human instead?' problem.

[ericgrau]

Regarding quotation below and ^


One of the upsides of being a half-elf is that their favored class is any. If you choose to house rule this limitation away half-elves lose a great deal of value as a race.

I forgot about favored class any since it is so uncommon to use. This is actually a little useful in core. Is everything else put together worth a core feat?... actually it might be if your DM is strongly into skills and lighting. That might make them ok.

In core feats aren't as good so half-elves make a lot more sense there... if you get detailed enough with the skill and lighting rules.

Seems like splatbook feats, a poor understanding of rules details, and house ruling away multi-classing xp penalties (and a poor understanding of those rules too) killed the half-elves.

Here's a quick summary:
- Taking a 10 on stealth skills and tracking lighting makes low light vision handy. Using skills properly makes them more useful. Though I suppose half-elves make good diplomancers too if you use the rules improperly.
- Enforcing multi-classing xp penalties is not equivalent to killing puppies. If you do the math combined with the accelerated xp rules they add up to precisely -1 level that gradually appears after about 10 levels It would be 5, but part-time accelerated xp before being a full level behind doubles that time. And if you fix the problem any time during those levels accelerated xp makes it go away. That's actually a pretty fair penalty to encourage single classing or following your race.

[Sacrieur]

Name something they can do better than someone else.

Be a half-elf.

[nyjastul69]

That's just not right. Because their obvious competition on that front is human (one of the best races in the game) and illumian (again, very good race, and this time it's actually an interesting one)

I was not speaking to half-elves value in regard to humans. Human is a superior choice for almost all builds. I was speaking to the inherent value of half-elves vs. all races. If you house rule out xp penalties for multi-classing, then there are much better choices. Any RAW analysis must take this into consideration.

ETA: Not right? WTF? Who made you judge? There is no question I'm right. Or more succinctly, correct. Right and wrong are moral descriptors.

[LudicSavant]

Is everything else put together worth a core feat?

No. And it's certainly not worth a core feat and an extra fully trained skill.

[ericgrau]

No. And it's certainly not worth a core feat and an extra fully trained skill.

Your best option for a core feat is a +1 to something commonly used or a +4 to something with an uncommon use. Power attack doesn't work well without splatbook feats. Magic item crafting might save a few thousand gp at a fairly high level unless you get crazy down time. A few +1s and +2s plus low light vision isn't bad, assuming your DM lets you use them often.

I did forget about those skill points. Those are probably a lot more useful on, say, a fighter or sorcerer, but not that useful on a rogue who already has plenty of trained skills and can do almost nothing with a 10th one (um, let's get forgery?). And would be better with a higher max on his main skills. So half-elf bard or rogue is ok in core with a good DM. Maybe ranger.

Outside of core you need to deal with feat power-creep and an extreme number of prestige classes that make base multi-classing less attractive.

[Solaris]

Lack of upside is a downside, due to opportunity cost.

Let me put it this way. There is no "downside" to taking levels of Warrior (the NPC class)--it doesn't decrease your stats or anything. In fact, it increases your stats: you gain BAB, you gain HP, you gain skill points, your base saves improve, you even gain feats every three levels and ability score increases every four levels, and the whole package comes with armor and weapon proficiencies to boot. Would you say that Warrior is, in any way, a remotely acceptable class for a PC to take levels in?

Excellently put.

About the only thing that can be said in their favor is they don't make your character worse, like half-orc does.


You have a DM who allows DCS? I thought they were mythical, like non-annoying Kender.

DCS as in Dragonlance Campaign Setting?
Why not allow it?

[ryu]

Excellently put.

About the only thing that can be said in their favor is they don't make your character worse, like half-orc does.



DCS as in Dragonlance Campaign Setting?
Why not allow it?

Dark chaos shuffle. Google embrace the dark chaos and shun the dark chaos.

[LudicSavant]

Your best option for a core feat is a +1 to something commonly used or a +4 to something with an uncommon use. Power attack doesn't work well without splatbook feats. Magic item crafting might save a few thousand gp at a fairly high level unless you get crazy down time. A few +1s and +2s plus low light vision isn't bad, assuming your DM lets you use them often.

I did forget about those skill points. Those are probably a lot more useful on, say, a fighter or sorcerer, but not that useful on a rogue who already has plenty of trained skills and can do almost nothing with a 10th one (um, let's get forgery?). And would be better with a higher max on his main skills. So half-elf bard or rogue is ok in core with a good DM. Maybe ranger.

Outside of core you need to deal with feat power-creep and an extreme number of prestige classes that make base multi-classing less attractive.

Power Attack works just fine without extra feats to support it (in fact, I get power attack alone more often than not in non-core builds. Why would I need something like Leap Attack if I already do a coupla hundred damage in a hit?). Improved Initiative isn't something that comes up rarely, and it's actually kind of a big deal. Things like Combat Reflexes and Stand Still can be pretty significant. Something as simple as Spell Focus means your save or loses succeed more often.

The skill bonuses of the Half Elf are eclipsed by the superior skill bonuses of the Human. Moreover, the comment about the Rogue not having any use for a 10th skill is just silly; Rogues have 29 class skills in the PHB. And let me tell you, there are more than 9 choices on there superior to Forgery.

So then there's the question of how much Low-Light Vision, a +2 bonus to saves vs enchantments, and immunity to Sleep is worth.

Everyone knows elves don't sleep, so they're probably not going to cast Sleep on you... but that's good, because Sleep is bad. But there are other choices that are just as bad for you, really. I'd say this counts for very little.

You can grab Low-Light vision for your human (in addition to other bonuses) for the duration of the whole dungeon crawl for the cost of a level 1 scroll or two, and people still don't even usually bother, so that's basically nothing. If you ever care about Low-Light Vision, you can get it for hours (in addition to other useful bonuses!) for a handful of gp.

So it mostly comes down to a +2 bonus to saves vs enchantments... up against grabbing Improved Initiative or Power Attack or Combat Reflexes or Spell Focus or Stand Still or Skill Focus: UMD or Mounted Combat or Up the Walls or Deep Impact or Natural Spell or Augment Summoning or Improved Grapple or Quicken Spell or Silent Spell or Still Spell or Extend Spell or Scribe Scroll or Point Blank Shot. And so on.

[Vhaidara]

Rogues need the following skills to do the job of "Rogue" (scouting ahead for traps, providing the fighter with a flank buddy)
Hide, Move Silently, Spot, Listen, Search, Disable Device, Open Lock, Tumble
That's 8 for the expectation of the Rogue role. Now lets look at some other things you expect the "Rogue" to do
Sleight of Hand (picking pockets), Bluff (lie to the police), Gather Information/Knowledge (Local) (what's going on around town?), Appraise (how much is the loot worth?), Climb (Second Story man), Use Rope (Someone should have invested in it, why not the high Dex guy with all those points?), and Use Magic Device (often advertised as their strongest class feature)

EDIT: Also, better comparison for the mind affecting saves vs a feat: How about Iron Will?

[Grod_The_Giant]

Rogues need the following skills to do the job of "Rogue" (scouting ahead for traps, providing the fighter with a flank buddy)
Hide, Move Silently, Spot, Listen, Search, Disable Device, Open Lock, Tumble
That's 8 for the expectation of the Rogue role. Now lets look at some other things you expect the "Rogue" to do
Sleight of Hand (picking pockets), Bluff (lie to the police), Gather Information/Knowledge (Local) (what's going on around town?), Appraise (how much is the loot worth?), Climb (Second Story man), Use Rope (Someone should have invested in it, why not the high Dex guy with all those points?), and Use Magic Device (often advertised as their strongest class feature)
This. Skills in 3.5 are terrible. (Though, admittedly, still better than something like Traveler)

[Psyren]

They're quite strong in PF, and I believe in 5e as well. But in 3.5 they definitely got the short end of the stick.

[Rubik]

Be an elf and a human at the same time.An elf with Human-Blooded or Human Heritage is far superior. You use one of the elf's six racial bonus feats for it, and you still have five left over, as well as a number of other elf bonuses.

[Platymus Pus]

Two favored classes in Pathfinder could be a pretty good thing for certain builds.

The classes limited by race and level caps aspects of early editions still screams at me when these questions come up. I guess your first systems stay with you no matter how old you get.
So it's more favored to gestalt rules?

[Nihilarian]

An elf with Human-Blooded or Human Heritage is far superior. You use one of the elf's six racial bonus feats for it, and you still have five left over, as well as a number of other elf bonuses.where is the elf getting six racial bonus feats?

I can't seem to find Human-Blooded, but elves don't qualify for Human Heritage

[VoxRationis]

If I understand correctly, he's referring to the elf's weapon proficiencies, plus some splatbook shenanigans which allow you to play around with them.

[Rubik]

where is the elf getting six racial bonus feats?They gain six weapon proficiency feats at level 1. Combine with Embrace the Dark Chaos and Shun the Dark Chaos.


I can't seem to find Human-Blooded, but elves don't qualify for Human Heritage"I have human in my ancestry" is pure fluff, as humans can breed with pretty much anything. If a human and an elf can breed, they produce a half-elf. If a half-elf and an elf breed, it's fully possible that the offspring takes after his elf half (as he's 3/4 elf, and 1/4 human). If he has a kid with another elf, the offspring is 1/8 human and 7/8 elf, which almost certainly results in being fully elf, mechanically. But since you've got a human as your ancestor, you qualify for Human Heritage.

The same goes with any other race out there.

[VoxRationis]

"I have human in my ancestry" is pure fluff, as humans can breed with pretty much anything. If a human and an elf can breed, they produce a half-elf. If a half-elf and an elf breed, it's fully possible that the offspring takes after his elf half (as he's 3/4 elf, and 1/4 human). If he has a kid with another elf, the offspring is 1/8 human and 7/8 elf, which almost certainly results in being fully elf, mechanically. But since you've got a human as your ancestor, you qualify for Human Heritage.

The same goes with any other race out there.

I'm not sure if some splatbook talks about this in 3.5, but older editions made it clear that any amount of human ancestry prevented a line from "going back" to full elfdom. In any case, claiming an infinitesimal part of human blood is present in your character for some mechanical purposes (specifically those which allow you to qualify for extra feats) but not other mechanical purposes is... dubious at best.

[Nihilarian]

They gain six weapon proficiency feats at level 1. Combine with Embrace the Dark Chaos and Shun the Dark Chaos.

"I have human in my ancestry" is pure fluff, as humans can breed with pretty much anything. If a human and an elf can breed, they produce a half-elf. If a half-elf and an elf breed, it's fully possible that the offspring takes after his elf half (as he's 3/4 elf, and 1/4 human). If he has a kid with another elf, the offspring is 1/8 human and 7/8 elf, which almost certainly results in being fully elf, mechanically. But since you've got a human as your ancestor, you qualify for Human Heritage.

The same goes with any other race out there.the prerequisites for Human Heritage don't say "I have human in my ancestry", they say "Half-human race or human-descended race". It doesn't matter if your great great great grandfather was a human, if you use the stats for an elf you're not a member of a "human-descended race".

I missed the Dark Chaos Shuffle, though.

[Draconium]

In any case, claiming (Blank) is present in your character for some mechanical purposes (specifically those which allow you to qualify for extra feats) but not other mechanical purposes is... dubious at best.

It's also what a lot of optimization is based around, from what I've seen. Optimization doesn't care about silly things like "morality." :smalltongue:

[Windrammer]

I'm just going over it again and I am seeing little to no downsides.
Sure not the best features in the world...but far from horrible.

It's not that they have any overt disadvantages, they just don't have anything. Every other race in the PHB gets something useful... Stat bonuses, special abilities, proficiencies, immunities, etc. Half Elves have nothing, there is virtually no mechanical incentive to play them. It's pure flavor.

[nyjastul69]

It's not that they have any overt disadvantages, they just don't have anything. Every other race in the PHB gets something useful... Stat bonuses, special abilities, proficiencies, immunities, etc. Half Elves have nothing, there is virtually no mechanical incentive to play them. It's pure flavor.

Favored class: Any is a mechanical incentive.

[Windrammer]

Favored class: Any is a mechanical incentive.

Humans get Favored Class: Any, and a Bonus Feat. What's the mechanical incentive of choosing Half Elf while the Human option is present?

[nyjastul69]

Humans get Favored Class: Any, and a Bonus Feat. What's the mechanical incentive of choosing Half Elf while the Human option is present?

There is none. If the discussion focuses only on humans and half-elves as races, humans are superior. If the discussion focuses on humans and all races, I find humans to also be a superior choice. If the discussion focuses on half-elves as compared to all races, half-elves have more value, assuming one is following the rule of course.

[daremetoidareyo]

They are a bad race. They are not a horrible race.

... I didn't list elven blood because I've never used it or even seen or heard of it used in person or in a forum in all my years of gaming. At least not as far as I can remember.

Can you play one without sucking? Sure no problem. Missing out on any useful racial benefits isn't a big deal in D&D. Class and feat selection matter far more.

You can use that elvenblood trait as a half drow to get access to lots of stuff restricted to drows, which are mechanically superior to half elves to such a degree that they typically have level adjustment.

[Susano-wo]

There is none. If the discussion focuses only on humans and half-elves as races, humans are superior. If the discussion focuses on humans and all races, I find humans to also be a superior choice. If the discussion focuses on half-elves as compared to all races, half-elves have more value, assuming one is following the rule of course.


And humans are one of the other races. So for something to be of value, there has to be an aspect that makes it mechanically superior to another race while not being eclipsed by any race. So, having another race [human] that can do practically everything that half elf can do means that it is not a good choice. Therefore favored class is not important, unless you want class dips, and, say, the half elf's minor boosts.

You have to want:

low-light vision,
sleep immunity,
being counted as Elven for things,
or any two of: a slight edge in perception, a slight edge in diplomacy, or a bonus against enchantments (any one of which of which the human can do better on its own)


and want a non prestige class dip for favored class: any to even matter. That's why people are saying that human invalidated favored class any as a positive.

This is not to say no one should play them if they just want to be a half elf because they do, but mechanically, it is nigh useless

And, because I cannot resist: right and correct are synonyms. It would take a highly technical level of discussion for there to be any meaningful distinction between the two. Also, you seem to mean precisely (or some synonym thereof), not succinctly (which refers to brevity).

[nyjastul69]

And humans are one of the other races. So for something to be of value, there has to be an aspect that makes it mechanically superior to another race while not being eclipsed by any race. So, having another race [human] that can do practically everything that half elf can do means that it is not a good choice. Therefore favored class is not important, unless you want class dips, and, say, the half elf's minor boosts.

You have to want:

low-light vision,
sleep immunity,
being counted as Elven for things,
or any two of: a slight edge in perception, a slight edge in diplomacy, or a bonus against enchantments (any one of which of which the human can do better on its own)


and want a non prestige class dip for favored class: any to even matter. That's why people are saying that human invalidated favored class any as a positive.

This is not to say no one should play them if they just want to be a half elf because they do, but mechanically, it is nigh useless

And, because I cannot resist: right and correct are synonyms. It would take a highly technical level of discussion for there to be any meaningful distinction between the two. Also, you seem to mean precisely (or some synonym thereof), not succinctly (which refers to brevity).

A race does not need to be mechanically superior to have value. Anyhow, my only point is that discussing the value of half-elf as a race must include favored class as a point of value. It hadn't been mentioned prior to my first post in this thread.

[Grod_The_Giant]

A race does not need to be mechanically superior to have value. Anyhow, my only point is that discussing the value of half-elf as a race must include favored class as a point of value. It hadn't been mentioned prior to my first post in this thread.
Must it? Multiclass xp penalties are probably the most ignored rule in 3.5, and even if they're not they're hardly relevant to every-- or perhaps even most-- builds.

[Troacctid]

A race does not need to be mechanically superior to have value. Anyhow, my only point is that discussing the value of half-elf as a race must include favored class as a point of value. It hadn't been mentioned prior to my first post in this thread.

Discussing the relative merits of Warrior vs. Aristocrat must include skills and BAB as points of value. Both classes are still unplayably bad.

[ryu]

A race does not need to be mechanically superior to have value. Anyhow, my only point is that discussing the value of half-elf as a race must include favored class as a point of value. It hadn't been mentioned prior to my first post in this thread.

And yet there is a reason half elf and half orc are so rare to see play isn't there? If you want variety the most efficient way to do it is to ignore some LA or racial hit die rules. WotC literally made those rules because it detests people playing things that aren't basically human, or even things that are basically human without being manifestly inferior.

[Thurbane]

There's no doubt Humans are on the top-end of LA +0 races. I think Strongheart Halflings, Lesser Planetouched, Warforged and Whisper Gnomes are pretty solid, too (although two of those options comes from that great big La La Land of Optimization called the Forgotten Realms).

If you can swing Phrenic (or another +2 LA template combo) on an Incarnate Construct Warforged, then that's possible the best LA +0.

But all being said and done, I can find no real reason to play a Half-Elf (other that RP) even in core only.

[Susano-wo]

A race does not need to be mechanically superior to have value. Anyhow, my only point is that discussing the value of half-elf as a race must include favored class as a point of value. It hadn't been mentioned prior to my first post in this thread.

It has to not be mechanically inferior to have mechanical value. As I said, everyone should feel free to play a half-elf if they want, and its not going to make the character nonviable, but that still doesn't make the favored class:any bonus a worthwhile consideration for playing the race, given the other race that gets that also greatly eclipses the half-elf mechanically.

Again, to reiterate, I have seen people play half elves, and "gasp," they were perfectly viable! But the discussion is of the half elf mechanically.

RE: why WotC made favored class rules. I see no evidence that they did it because they hate non-humans, but it seems more likely that they were trying to enforce a jack of all trades angle to humans, and curb what they saw was a potential for the new multi-class system to be abused

[Coidzor]

Because the only thing Half-Elves are actually good for is game-breaking Diplomancy builds.

[Vhaidara]

Because the only thing Half-Elves are actually good for is game-breaking Diplomancy builds.

Illumian does it better.

[ryu]

It has to not be mechanically inferior to have mechanical value. As I said, everyone should feel free to play a half-elf if they want, and its not going to make the character nonviable, but that still doesn't make the favored class:any bonus a worthwhile consideration for playing the race, given the other race that gets that also greatly eclipses the half-elf mechanically.

Again, to reiterate, I have seen people play half elves, and "gasp," they were perfectly viable! But the discussion is of the half elf mechanically.

RE: why WotC made favored class rules. I see no evidence that they did it because they hate non-humans, but it seems more likely that they were trying to enforce a jack of all trades angle to humans, and curb what they saw was a potential for the new multi-class system to be abused

I wasn't talking about favored classes. I said LA and racial hit die. You know those things that turn straight-classed but unusual races into bricked versions of whatever they're trying to play?

[Platymus Pus]

Throw a human and half-elf of the same age into a vortex of aging time.
Tell me which one dies first.

[Thurbane]

Throw a human and half-elf of the same age into a vortex of aging time.
Tell me which one dies first.

Well if that's the criteria, I'll take Elf, thanks. :smallwink:

[Rubik]

Well if that's the criteria, I'll take Elf, thanks. :smallwink:Warforged always wins that bet. No eating, no drinking, no breathing, and no death from old age -- and they even have bonus Con to help the inevitable venerability.

[Troacctid]

Illumian does it better.

No, that one actually is unique to half-elves (or changelings pretending to be half-elves), since they're the only ones who get the substitution level.

[ryu]

Throw a human and half-elf of the same age into a vortex of aging time.
Tell me which one dies first.

The elf. There's a feet that grants immunity to aging. A feat the human has an extra slot for.:smallamused:

[Solaris]

Dark chaos shuffle. Google embrace the dark chaos and shun the dark chaos.

Oh, that. I know what it is, just didn't connect the acronym to the term.
It's one of the few tricks so insane that I don't think even I would let a player pull it.

[Der_DWSage]

A race does not need to be mechanically superior to have value. Anyhow, my only point is that discussing the value of half-elf as a race must include favored class as a point of value. It hadn't been mentioned prior to my first post in this thread.

While it doesn't need to be superior, I'd argue that it at least needs to fill a niche that hadn't yet been filled. The Half-Orc has that, as another race that's rarely played due to how it gets somewhat screwed-few races grant a bonus to strength. And if you need a +STR race from core alone, there you go.

The Half-Elf, on the other hand, is pretty much an inferior Elf. You can argue Favored Class:Any until you're blue in the fact, and I'll only agree that it makes Half-Elf an inferior Human, or inferior to any build that intends to stay single-classed or use only prestige classes in addition to a base class.

So yeah, Half-Elves are a bad race. Not necessarily because their bonuses are few and poor, but because they don't have a niche that someone else hasn't covered. They can't even claim the 'no drawbacks' niche, because Humans and Illumians already took that one.

[ryu]

Oh, that. I know what it is, just didn't connect the acronym to the term.
It's one of the few tricks so insane that I don't think even I would let a player pull it.

Eh. By the time it's easy and cheap to do it's not going to make that huge a difference unless you're using the hole of magical joy and wonder to give yourself iron will to shuffle away for 3000 GP a pop for cheap feats. In which case it's actually pretty hilarious and one of the most compelling reasons to pick neutral alignment.

[Necroticplague]

No, that one actually is unique to half-elves (or changelings pretending to be half-elves), since they're the only ones who get the substitution level.

Soothing Voice, right? Something that emulates a Mind-effecting spell, and thus everyone and their dog is immune to?

[Thurbane]

While it doesn't need to be superior, I'd argue that it at least needs to fill a niche that hadn't yet been filled. The Half-Orc has that, as another race that's rarely played due to how it gets somewhat screwed-few races grant a bonus to strength. And if you need a +STR race from core alone, there you go.

Don't get me started on Half-Orcs. A race that gets hosed for daring to have a bonus to that most OP of stats - Strength!

Later on they must have realized how stupid that is: Darfellan, Skarn, and Neanderthal. Bonus to Strength, no net ability penalty, and racial features beyond just Darkvision.

[Platymus Pus]

The elf. There's a feet that grants immunity to aging. A feat the human has an extra slot for.:smallamused:

Oh sure if you feel like wasting an epic level feat.

[Coidzor]

Warforged always wins that bet. No eating, no drinking, no breathing, and no death from old age -- and they even have bonus Con to help the inevitable venerability.

If warforged can even become venerable. I think they just stop at middle-aged. :smallconfused:

[Draconium]

If warforged can even become venerable. I think they just stop at middle-aged. :smallconfused:

I actually had the table for the Eberron races vital statistics open when I saw this. They do stop at middle-age, at age 150. The others just have a dash through them.

[ryu]

Oh sure if you feel like wasting an epic level feat.

Oh I didn't say it was optimal in any way. Just pointing out that even in a contest that hilariously contrived the human is still better.

[Rubik]

Wedded to History? It's a good feat -- certainly better than the epic feat which grants you, what, an extra year or so? Polymorph Any Object reverts your body to young adult. Much cheaper to buy a couple of scrolls to turn yourself into a phasm or something.

[ryu]

Wedded to History? It's a good feat -- certainly better than the epic feat which grants you, what, an extra year or so? Polymorph Any Object reverts your body to young adult. Much cheaper to buy a couple of scrolls to turn yourself into a phasm or something.

I didn't go straight to spells because feats are more thematic for the argument at hand.

[LudicSavant]

While it doesn't need to be superior, I'd argue that it at least needs to fill a niche that hadn't yet been filled. The Half-Orc has that, as another race that's rarely played due to how it gets somewhat screwed-few races grant a bonus to strength. And if you need a +STR race from core alone, there you go.

The Half-Elf, on the other hand, is pretty much an inferior Elf. You can argue Favored Class:Any until you're blue in the fact, and I'll only agree that it makes Half-Elf an inferior Human, or inferior to any build that intends to stay single-classed or use only prestige classes in addition to a base class.

So yeah, Half-Elves are a bad race. Not necessarily because their bonuses are few and poor, but because they don't have a niche that someone else hasn't covered. They can't even claim the 'no drawbacks' niche, because Humans and Illumians already took that one.

You could just be a full-blooded orc instead. If we count the whole d20srd as "core" then we have water orcs, too.

[Platymus Pus]

Wedded to History? It's a good feat -- certainly better than the epic feat which grants you, what, an extra year or so? Polymorph Any Object reverts your body to young adult. Much cheaper to buy a couple of scrolls to turn yourself into a phasm or something.

Wedded to history only gets you the background.
You have to pick the right background for it to even work.
Even qualifying to be an elder character is determined by life expectancy, you're supposed to live thousands of years.
A kobold at age 100 would qualify, a human that is age 100 shouldn't.
Getting the feat at first level with a reasonable DM who knows what it actually requires by looking at the non-core magazine it comes from...

You'd have to do things like writing background for the campaign several thousand years before it began and whys a level 1 character could even GET in such a position of stasis or whatever for that long.
Would be a real pain, I'd rather just go half-elf or elf. Humans tend to be short lived unless they are high level spellcasters who cease being human (which you won't be level 1, it's not meant for it), it's meant more for elves and long lived creatures level 1.

[Solaris]

I have campaign backstories that run back into geological timescales and trace major geological, geographical, evolutionary, and for the latter parts anthropological trends and events through the length of it.
In my defense, I'm a science major.

A player is welcome to have his character's roots in one of the many periods of the campaign's ancient history or prehistory. Heck, he can even say that he used to be somebody impressive, but the eons of stasis or whatever are what reduced him down to 1st level. That'd be pretty cool if done well.

[Platymus Pus]

I have campaign backstories that run back into geological timescales and trace major geological, geographical, evolutionary, and for the latter parts anthropological trends and events through the length of it.
In my defense, I'm a science major.

A player is welcome to have his character's roots in one of the many periods of the campaign's ancient history or prehistory. Heck, he can even say that he used to be somebody impressive, but the eons of stasis or whatever are what reduced him down to 1st level. That'd be pretty cool if done well.

In a world of magic if the person was that impressive they wouldn't be level 1 from stasis. They'd simply shape change into something that'd live long. If they were from an age of magic that couldn't they wouldn't understand things as they are in the future easily, they couldn't access the same spells as everyone else easily as even the basics would drastically be different.
You'd have to make illogical choices for someone really great or actually restrict your entire campaign's spells realistically. Anything that extends life easily, taken from everyone or some weird restriction on the universe that everything dies at normal age they started with no matter what and his character is special just because he found a way with stasis.

Though I guess in a science based campaign it'd work pretty well. Like say someone from a world of science awakening to a world of magic. Though still plagued with not knowing what's going on.
A rather singular idea, just to not effect everything. The other idea would be ala The Nameless One from Torment, but that's far more than just that feat.
I just find just grabbing that feat to be rather problematic in that grabbing that feat itself is a large penalty for everyone involved if you're doing a serious campaign in that you really have to work around it.

But enough about that, I find avoiding sleep effects in itself like a feat. Because it prevents me from being coopdegraced along with the entire party while being on watch.:smalltongue:
Though I think of the PF half elf when I think half elf.
Thinking about it, half-elves are meant to be human rangers with elf flavor. A reason to not picking elf would be that int isn't that important and taking a hit to con sucks for a martial class like ranger.
Ancestral Arms is the extra feat if you don't care about the skill boost from Adaptability. You're probably going to use an exotic weapon of some kind for the entire game already may as well get it out of the way.

[DixieDevil]

I've always figured Half-Elves were there for the guy that didn't want to play an Elf but thought Humans were boring.

[VoxRationis]

You could just be a full-blooded orc instead. If we count the whole d20srd as "core" then we have water orcs, too.

But we don't count the whole d20srd as core. The SRD has Unearthed Arcana content. If we were to include that, we'd have mutually contradictory damage systems.

[LudicSavant]

But we don't count the whole d20srd as core. The SRD has Unearthed Arcana content. If we were to include that, we'd have mutually contradictory damage systems.

So you could just be a full-blooded orc instead.

[ShurikVch]

Windwright Captain (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20050803a&page=3)

[TheifofZ]

So half elves are better at not dying of old age than humans. But that's going to come up once in almost never, and plenty of other races are ALSO better at not dying of old age, but are still better at being generally better than a half elf. Quite a few notably eclipse the half elf's age limits. Starting with Elf, which we all acknowledge as being mechanically superior to their half-kin in every way that matters except the racial level for diplomacy.