how to destroy a level 19 wizard?

[PERFECTBUILD]

wat is the best way to destroy a level 19 wizard with spells as teleport if you are a non caster

[Khedrac]

Find a game system where that is a mere beginner...

This is the General Roleplaying forum, and without context your question is meaningless.
There are at least 5 versions of D&D that this could apply to and a lot of other game systems (e.g. Rolemaster), and possible answers totally depend on which game you play.

I would suggest either reposting in the correct sub-forum or asking a moderator to move the thread.

[noob]

the best way is to find one who is willing to be destroyed in exchange of being paid and who can resurrect itself.

[Mastikator]

Put a blade through his temple when he's sleeping.

[LibraryOgre]

No matter how subtle the wizard, a knife between the shoulder blades will severely cramp his style. -Vlad Taltos, Jhereg.

Moved to 3.x. If the OP was referring to another system, PM me and I'll move it there.

[FocusWolf413]

In order: Disjunction, Antimagic Field, Wish (if the other spells didn't debuff him), let your dps handle it.

[ExLibrisMortis]

As a non-caster, UMD is your best bet. Get scrolls of Mordenkainen's disjunction and dimensional anchor, use them in that order on the same round, and fight the wizard without his buffs.

[ben-zayb]

Bribe the DM to veto the destruction of that cheating optimizer Wizard 19. That only works if you and the DM aren't casters IRL, though.

Alternatively, take Leadership and get an equally (or more) powerful T1.

[DMVerdandi]

If you don't want to touch magic at all, either by using items or proxy, which would be truly acting to your original intent, the best answer is we don't know.

If you got lucky this would be a goofy wizard with really low WIS, that prepared spells just to make children smile. He can be killed, mostly...

But just regular standard low level spells are just scary against such a guy.

I guess the real way to win, would be like... somehow making it into this wizards personal space, and attacking from range, either through some sort of trap, or sniping.


However, for a prepared caster that uses intelligence, just from a logical standpoint, wizards would optimize. And grossly. It costs them almost nothing to do so, and it is priceless for them. Cast a couple of spells that take like on average 6 seconds, many can last all day, and can protect you from... well would-be "mage-slayers" and the like.
Accounting for 10-minute spells and such, MAX prep time to give the middle finger to the opposition, one hour.


Taking one hour out of your day to cheat death is golden. Not doing it would be like... well it would be like having magic and not using it to be practically unkillable. Just stupid. Especially considering items like ring of sustenance exist. Like, there are SO many hours in a day for a standard wizard.

They have no qualms against using magic items, minions, guilds, and more likely than anything, social prowess like politics, laws, and economics to completely and utterly crush opposition.


You think your steady sword hand is worth a lot, until that very mage offers up his services to your lord, to provide logistics through divination to help him annex surrounding territories.
See how quickly you lose the support of the kingdom you reside in.
Even worse if he bypasses that and goes straight for the Geas spell. Now you are actually fighting the kingdom itself.

Those kind of things are why they are dangerous. Not fireball. It's the ability to almost instantly possess resources that give them control over forces that one mundane man can't fathom, with the snap of their fingers.

So, I could say "get initiative" But that is so arbitrary and probably wrong that it's crazy.
Only plot inspired stupidity could realistically get someone that close. And they aren't stupid.

[Arbane]

Basically, it's impossible. A level 20 Wizard has already Won at D&D, and a level 19 Wizard is not sufficiently less omnipotent for it to make a difference.

Due to poor design, the only thing that beats magic in D&D3.X is More Magic.

[Windrammer]

wat is the best way to destroy a level 19 wizard with spells as teleport if you are a non caster

Start a grapple

[Myou]

Start a grapple

The wizard has teleport.

[legomaster00156]

Be a 20th-level Wizard. Counterspell until your opponent runs out of spells. You now have at least one spell remaining, not to mention a higher BAB and possibly high HP.

[daremetoidareyo]

Pay him to fight outsiders. Hire other wizards to planar bind other outsiders into hunting him.

[Malroth]

Thow yourself into a volcano and roll up a real character.

[Windrammer]

The wizard has teleport.

Not if you cover his mouth

[gooddragon1]

I'm suspicious of the vagueness of the question, the nature in which it is asked, and other things...


Not if you cover his mouth

Contingency (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/contingency.htm). He still has teleport. No feat investment needed.

My view of this scenario is that if this is another player you have anywhere from a good chance (if they have no idea how to play a wizard and prepared only damage dealing spells) to no chance (if they know how to play a wizard optimally). If it's a DM encounter, you should remind the DM that you are not casters and to take this into consideration when determining how effectively he should make the wizard act in combat. The point of the game after all is to have a challenging but potentially winnable encounter. If it is to party wipe you, there are better systems for that (like Paranoia I think).

[LudicSavant]

wat is the best way to destroy a level 19 wizard with spells as teleport if you are a non caster

Have a ridiculous amount of money. Pump UMD. Buy magic items that let you do high level magic too. Hope the wizard isn't very shrewd. Use stealth.

[TheifofZ]

Play a Rogue. Buy a Scroll of AMF.
Sneak and follow the wizard around until he falls asleep. No wizard is going to be casting spells to boost his Spot/Listen if he doesn't think he needs it, and a Rogue should be able to hit ~+30 hide/Move Silently without Magic Items. Activate AMF. Use Rope to tie him down and leave him Helpless. Coup-de-grace until he dies.

AMF negates all magic which turns him from a nigh omnipotent being into a fairly squishy critter. Not even Contingency spells activate inside it.
Use Rope to make him helpless so he can't run if he wakes up before he's dead. Rogue so you get sneak attack damage on the Coup De Grace; an average wizard will have a Fort of Base +6, Con +2 at best once he's been stripped of magic. That's +8. The Coup De Grace gets 11d6 damage, average is 38~.
That means the wizard needs to roll a 20 on his fort save to not die, and has been rendered helpless enough that the Rogue can make several more such attempts. After that, use one of several ways to make sure the wizard is dead for realsies, starting with finely dicing the corpse and keeping it very separate to negate the basic Revive magics. True Revive/Wish and other high level options don't necessarily require a body, and you need to make sure he really can't come back, not even as a spirit. Because if not, he will come back to life, find out who killed him, and return the favor.

[Telonius]

The question wasn't how to defeat him, it was how to destroy him. For that, it's completely dependent on the wizard, but you might start by figuring out what he loves most, what he fears most, and the line he believes he'll never cross.:sabine:

[Platymus Pus]

The question wasn't how to defeat him, it was how to destroy him. For that, it's completely dependent on the wizard, but you might start by figuring out what he loves most, what he fears most, and the line he believes he'll never cross.:sabine:

So sleep with his wife and have the wife murder him in his sleep?

[Malroth]

The question wasn't how to defeat him, it was how to destroy him. For that, it's completely dependent on the wizard, but you might start by figuring out what he loves most, what he fears most, and the line he believes he'll never cross.:sabine:

so, Being a wizard, Being a fighter, and Casting Tensers Transformation?

[Rubik]

It's really, stupendously difficult, but it is possible to come up with plans of attack that no wizard could conceivably defend against. Made doubly difficult since divination is a thing.

Who would expect their foe to have a spellblade equipped that allows said foe to redirect a casting of Tenser's Transformation onto them? The best part is, there's no defense against it, other than just not being there. However, it doesn't protect against Contingencies, Clones, and the like. But it's still a good way to screw a caster over in a big way.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Fighting a high level wizard as a noncaster is a monumental task if that wizard is run even half-way optimally. It is, however, doable -if- you've optimized your noncaster as a hunter of spellcasters.

If you haven't, then hope your allies, particularly the casters, are up to the task of shutting down or drawing fire from his most dangerous/frustrating abilities.

There are an array of commonly cited spells and tricks that wizards are likely to employ that are necessary to defend or deal with. Some of these can only be answered with other spell effects.

First and foremost, you've got to be able to reach the bastard. This means being able punch through or ignore the more powerful BFC spells. Most of these can be covered by a ring of freedom of movement but of particular note are such effects as wall of force and forcecage. For these you carry a rod of cancellation or two.

Then there are some of the nastier debuffs. For these you want to carry a rod of absorption and/or wear gear that defends specifically against the worst of them. For example, negative levels really suck so getting a protection from negative energy effect is a good idea.

Then there are his buffs. A staff or wand of the highest cl level dispelling effect you can afford can help to strip these away -most- of the time (damned circle magic).

Finally, you've got to keep him from escaping. This is the tricky part. A 17+ level wizard can be reasonably expected to have up foresight through most of the day so simply sneaking up on him is a non-option. What you have to do is this: find out what he wants or where he's going and get ahead of him by either beating him there or convincing him that what he wants or where he wants to be is the site of your intended ambush. For the site of the ambush you want to select somewhere indoors with as few points of ingress and egress as you can find and you want to prepare it by locking it down with dimension lock or similar. Low ceilings are your friends. This makes simply flying away or teleporting out difficult or even impossible and, for dim. lock, it also blocks summoning spells from being cast succesfully.

Now, you can't hard counter all of the things a wizard can do to you. Getting the necessary equipment to do so is just too expensive by far. Since this is the case, you only want to get hard counters to the stuff that absolutely shuts you down. Carry a weapon made of a special wood or crystal, make sure you've got that cancellation rod for force cage, resilient sphere, etc, get immunity to petrification, paralyzation, and instant death. For everything else, good saves, good touch AC, evasion and mettle if you can afford them, and roll the dice.

Special note for AMF; don't. Just... don't. It shuts down all of your equipment, leaving you in rather poor shape to deal with the flying magical machine raining conjured and telekinetically hurled death down upon you through your now pitiful defenses. An AMF is only useful if you're a grappler and he's a gish, otherwise just forget it.

If you go with the above, you've got a shot, not a great one but a decent shot.

[Orderic]

Several good answers already, but depending on how optimized the wizard is, none of these might actually work. A standard tactic for wizards of that level is to sit in a demiplane and send an astral projection out to deal with the world. This demiplane is, of course, locked against any planar travel.

I recommend praying to your local deity of magic and hope that they will shut of all the magic the wizard has.

[Rubik]

Several good answers already, but depending on how optimized the wizard is, none of these might actually work. A standard tactic for wizards of that level is to sit in a demiplane and send an astral projection out to deal with the world. This demiplane is, of course, locked against any planar travel.

I recommend praying to your local deity of magic and hope that they will shut of all the magic the wizard has.But of course. That's cheap and easy to do, and so it should basically be every high level wizard's go-to when it comes to doing...well...anything. But I was assuming that victory was actually possible, rather than impossible.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Several good answers already, but depending on how optimized the wizard is, none of these might actually work. A standard tactic for wizards of that level is to sit in a demiplane and send an astral projection out to deal with the world. This demiplane is, of course, locked against any planar travel.

I recommend praying to your local deity of magic and hope that they will shut of all the magic the wizard has.

I recently discovered a little gem in the wu jen list for this; greater spirit binding can be used to bind the astral form of an otherwise non-spirit creature. Acquire a silver sword, yank him to you and go to town.

[molten_dragon]

A standard tactic for wizards of that level is to sit in a demiplane and send an astral projection out to deal with the world.

Is this really a standard tactic in actual games of D&D, or just in TO discussions? Because I've played a number of high-level D&D games over the years, and I've never once seen a DM allow this. I'm pretty sure no one I've played with has ever seen a DM allow this.

I think sometimes it's easy to forget that the kinds of tactics which are extremely common in forum discussions aren't necessarily as common in actual games.

In any case, to answer the OPs question.


wat is the best way to destroy a level 19 wizard with spells as teleport if you are a non caster

It depends a lot on how optimized the wizard is. If this is the type of wizard to sit on a demiplane, do all his adventuring through astral projection, have half a dozen contingent spells set to protect him from almost anything, and spend half his spell slots every day using divination to figure out who might be coming after him, then without similarly powerful magic yourself, there's no way to win.

If, on the other hand this is a fairly mediocre high-level wizard, then it's possible, though still difficult. Your best bet would be to build something that can kill him before he even realizes you're a threat. A rogue would be a good choice. Optimize heavily for stealth and breaking and entering skills, then sneak into wherever he lives and stick a dagger in his eye while he's sleeping. Or build a barbarian that can do enough damage to one-shot him and just walk up to him randomly on the street and lop his head off.

More details would let us give you a better answer.

[Dragonfan]

Trick the wizard into casting Antimagic field.

[Malroth]

Anti Melee field is a much more accurate description of the spell, Mages have many many ways of casting inside one or simply escaping before being affected while non casters loose all their buffs and equipment properties that allow them to fight back. Really If the magic user is unoptimized enough where swording him is even remotely possible he should not be slain rather cherished as the treasure he is to set an example for all future wizards and if he is played intelligently then simply go home and hope you have no value as a permanent mind-thrall.

[Curmudgeon]

Trick the wizard into casting Antimagic field.
Why bother? A Wilderness Rogue with an Antimagic Torc (Underdark, page 73) can just sneak up hidden and provide the Antimagic Field themselves. The Rogue grapples the Wizard, and because they can Hide while attacking (in any sort of natural setting), sneak attacks with Crippling Strike and Staggering Strike while preventing the Wizard from escaping. Being considered staggered lets the Wizard take only a single move/standard action each round; being grappled constrains the legal actions to a very short list; and in the meantime they're getting hit with sneak attack damage including maybe 6 points of STR damage each round. When the Rogue reduces the Wizard to 0 STR they're helpless and ready for coup de grace and (shortly thereafter) death.

[Malroth]

Foresight or Dire tortose means he can't be ambushed regardless of how stealthy you are so the best that happens is you activate his contigency teleport even if you somehow win initative

[TheifofZ]

The issue, of course, is that 'optimally optimized wizards' are a thought exercise.
Certainly, with the right combination of spells, a wizard is impervious to death by being unreachable, untargetable, unaffectable, and immune to everything.
But if the DM is using that, or a player is playing that, then it's not really a game anymore.
So lets assume the wizard is imperfect. Not sitting in a demiplane watching emptiness with nothing to do but occasionally refresh his spells just because he's afraid of death.
Lets also assume that he also doesn't just keep a giant Dire Tortoise on him at all times, or any other summoned beast. He has to blow a turn to summon in minions, because otherwise it just becomes a war of 'my minions are better.'
Second: AMF might be a 6th level spell, but I will straight up admit I don't have a doctorate in Wizard Spell/Feat Optimization, and have no idea how the 'prevents the functioning of magic or spells within its area' is so easily bypassed. Grab the Wizard to keep him from running out of it, and according to the wording, he can't do magic inside it.

[Aharon]

@OP
Stat up the wizard, then we can tell you how to maybe destroy him. Schrödinger's wizard (i.e., a wizard about whom we have no more information than "He's 19th level") can't be defeated, because he might have countermeasures for any conceivable plan. However, each fully statted out wizard is able to defend himself against almost all possible approaches, but there might be a few weaknesses left.

There is one brute force answer that works on all wizards, being "Assuming the use of the standard Great Wheel cosmology, arrange a fight within 100 miles of the spire, where absolutely no magic at all (not even Salient Divine Abilities) work."

Getting him there is an exercise left to the reader.

[Malroth]

Well Dire tortoise isn't summoned, Its a day to day travel form, All it takes is 1 previous ambush in his previous 18 levels of experience and the idea of "being immune to being surprised is good" and a shapechange modified by a greater metamagic rod of extend is a useful enough investment that it can be safely assumed to be up at almost all times. As for Antimagic field it's weaknesses are numerous. it's a 10 foot radius so unless the wizard casts it himself he will always be 1 free 5 foot step away from safety. Antimagic field also an emmination meaning it is blocked by any solid object between the user and the target Many wizards take advantage of this fact by the rather infamous "pointy hat trick" where the wizards cone shaped hat is actually a 5 foot wide metal cone shrunk to a cloth like consistency by a casting of shrink item which reverts to it's solid emmination blocking self instantly the moment magic is surpressed. At higher optimization levels there is a 5th level spell Invoke magic which allows casting of spells in Null magic areas as well as the prestigue classes Initate of Mystra , Dewemer keeper, And Initiate of the 7 fold veil all of which have built in hard counters to AMF.

[Curmudgeon]

Foresight or Dire tortose means he can't be ambushed regardless of how stealthy you are
How many times a day can the Wizard cast Foresight? There's no reason the dangers would be limited to 1/day. As for the Dire Tortoise, 2 levels of Scout mean the attacker also cannot be caught flat-footed, regardless of any monster characteristics. Since both would act in the surprise round, the Dire Tortoise sucky initiative would mean advantage to the attacker.

[ExLibrisMortis]

As long as you're not surprised, you can cast celerity (and then time stop), so any nonmagical way to win initiative isn't going to work all that well.

[Curmudgeon]

As long as you're not surprised, you can cast celerity (and then time stop), so any nonmagical way to win initiative isn't going to work all that well.
You can't cast anything if the guy with the Antimagic Torc is already within 10' when the surprise round starts.

[StreamOfTheSky]

The basic premise is usually:
1) Have a natural fly speed, like a Raptoran character. Boost it as much as is feasible w/o wasting too many resources on it.
2) Get AMF on yourself. UMD a scroll, have an arcane archer shoot you with it, be a gish yourself and cast it, whatever.
3) Fly to and grapple the wizard till he dies.

Having Hide in Plain Sight and Darkstalker feats along with maxed out hide and move silently is also a great way to get close before attacking. Mundane stealth isn't "seen through" by most divinations, those largely exist to counter other magic. If the enemy wizard has darkvision at all, by strict RAW a super inexpensive ring of the darkhidden means he just plain cannot see you. It's cheesy, but you're fighting GOD, so pull out all the stops. On that note, be sure to stop by the local apothecary for some dust of sneezing and choking...


Anti Melee field is a much more accurate description of the spell, Mages have many many ways of casting inside one or simply escaping before being affected while non casters loose all their buffs and equipment properties that allow them to fight back. Really If the magic user is unoptimized enough where swording him is even remotely possible he should not be slain rather cherished as the treasure he is to set an example for all future wizards and if he is played intelligently then simply go home and hope you have no value as a permanent mind-thrall.

I think there's a lot of interpretation involved with AMF, since it's so broad. Yes, instantaneous conjurations are no longer magical and continue to exist. But you still can't cast them from inside the area of AMF. And...in my opinion...if they rely on moving towards a target (like the Orb spells, the most common "AMF? Hah!" retort)...what is propelling them? Magic! So it seems to me, you could argue that once they enter the AMF, they'd stop moving and fall to the ground.
I lean very strongly on the side of "AMF blocks ALL line of effect" rulings.

[Rubik]

You can't cast anything if the guy with the Antimagic Torc is already within 10' when the surprise round starts.Tinfoil hat is a thing. It's cheap, it's easy, it's available at a ridiculously low level, and it gives wizards a reason to wear their pointy hats.

[ExLibrisMortis]

You can't cast anything if the guy with the Antimagic Torc is already within 10' when the surprise round starts.
Right, but:
That would set off a contingency for sure...
... if the wizard doesn't simply notice you before that, with Mindsight and so forth...
... or has the ability to cast in an AMF with Initiate of Mystra...
... or have an invisible prismatic sphere up, for the really paranoid ones...
... or the DM gives warning as per foresight: "if you are the subject of the spell, you would be warned in advance [...] if a creature were about to leap out from a hiding place (emphasis mine)...
... or if they're wearing a tinfoil hat, which is a fasion crime, but practical...
... or has a persistent invoke magic active, which is expensive, at 1000 gp per casting, but Supernatural Spell can fix that.

I'm sure I missed some.


...what is propelling them? Magic!
No, that's called momentum. Though I'll grant that orb of force is very weird, but then that's force.

[Rubik]

No, that's called momentum. Though I'll grant that orb of force is very weird, but then that's force.Well, magic propelled it at the target, but by the time it enters the AMF, the magic is already gone, and it's nothing but, as you said, momentum from there on out.

Of course, since Orbs of X are instantaneous conjurations, that means the orbs continue to exist after they're fired, so you can pick them up and use them again, assuming you're immune or resistant enough to not take damage from touching them.

[Curmudgeon]

Tinfoil hat is a thing.
Actually, in a game which has no facing, it isn't. There's no way in the game rules to maintain orientation so the hat is pointed up rather than sideways or down. Characters are constantly looking in all directions, including checking the ground for obstacles. The suddenly enlarged hat could be in any orientation, and much more likely to slam down on the wearer's shoulder or leg than to expand without hitting them.

[Rubik]

Actually, in a game which has no facing, it isn't. There's no way in the game rules to maintain orientation so the hat is pointed up rather than sideways or down. Characters are constantly looking in all directions, including checking the ground for obstacles. The suddenly enlarged hat could be in any orientation, and much more likely to slam down on the wearer's shoulder or leg than to expand without hitting them.Remember, anything not covered by the rules is expected to act like it does in the real world, RAW, so your point is groundless from the ground up.

[Curmudgeon]

Remember, anything not covered by the rules is expected to act like it does in the real world, RAW, so your point is groundless from the ground up.
That "act like it does in the real world" behavior is limited to natural laws.

Material Plane

The Material Plane tends to be the most Earthlike of all planes and operates under the same set of natural laws that our own real world does. This is the default plane for most adventures.
Your Wizard isn't going to keep their pointy hat in any particular orientation because there are no natural laws which make that happen.

[Rubik]

That "act like it does in the real world" behavior is limited to natural laws.

Your Wizard isn't going to keep their pointy hat in any particular orientation because there are no natural laws which make that happen.Huh. So is everything in your games spherical because they have no facing?

Because I've never played in a game like that.

[PERFECTBUILD]

Put a blade through his temple when he's sleeping.
the wizard is an elf, he does not have to sleep

[daremetoidareyo]

We're in schroedingers wizard territory now. The wizard has every spell and has already polymorphed themselves into any and every possible counter. Has anyone put together an average wizard by level to cut through these arguments yet?

[Rubik]

We're in schroedingers wizard territory now. The wizard has every spell and has already polymorphed themselves into any and every possible counter. Has anyone put together an average wizard by level to cut through these arguments yet?It's quite possible to do all of those things at once, and spontaneous casting as a wizard is doable, too. Spontaneously casting spells from your spellbook (or eidetic memory) isn't terribly hard. There are lots of options for it. (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=474.0)

[StreamOfTheSky]

Everyone always puts forth the ridiculous tinfoil hat counter. As if it would definitely expand out to perfectly plop down at the wizard's feet when the AMF reaches him, and that it's constantly remaining perfectly level and upright on his head prior to the AMF, necessary in order for it to do so. And that the foe couldn't just tip the thing over or stick a limb/weapon in as it's expanding to stop it from getting the base perfectly flat on the ground and covering the wizard.

As far as what I think of the validity of the "tinfoil hat defense"? It couldn't be more fitting that it involves tinfoil hats for its proponents, that's about as seriously as others should view it.
ie, outright mockery and condescension

[Aharon]

It's quite possible to do all of those things at once, and spontaneous casting as a wizard is doable, too. Spontaneously casting spells from your spellbook (or eidetic memory) isn't terribly hard. There are lots of options for it. (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=474.0)

Perhaps it is possible to do all the things mentioned up to now at once, but a real build will be constrained in some way - he can't have all possible configurations at once. For example, if some PO advice is followed (let's take incantatrix for persistent buffs), other options (spells from one school) are closed down.
(For example, the amount of metamagic he can use via having feats is limited, if DFCS is disallowed, and the amount of metamagic he can use via metamagic rods is limited by WBL, if cash loops are disallowed. If both are allowed, anything can be reproduced by non-magic characters via unlimited cash, and the discussion is moot).

[ExLibrisMortis]

If the base tinfoil hat doesn't work, the wizard can make a craft check at +enough to make a super gyroscopic hat that always falls down straight when un-shrunk.

Anyway, there are lots of possible counters to AMF, even versus AMF divebomb grapplers. AMF is unlikely to be enough to kill 'a 19th-level wizard' as mentioned by the OP, and the AMF counters take up so little build space that any other thing could be countered alongside the AMF. Until we have further details, this wizard will remain in superposition, and defend against everything.

[Rubik]

Perhaps it is possible to do all the things mentioned up to now at once, but a real build will be constrained in some way - he can't have all possible configurations at once. For example, if some PO advice is followed (let's take incantatrix for persistent buffs), other options (spells from one school) are closed down.

(For example, the amount of metamagic he can use via having feats is limited, if DFCS is disallowed, and the amount of metamagic he can use via metamagic rods is limited by WBL, if cash loops are disallowed. If both are allowed, anything can be reproduced by non-magic characters via unlimited cash, and the discussion is moot).Do note that metamagic rods are a thing, so there's that. And if you want more than one metamagic per rod, that's doable via rules in the MIC. Add 50% for the surcharge on additional metamagic feats on one rod. And since you're only restricted to using one metamagic rod per spell -- but metamagic feats per rod aren't limited...well...

[StreamOfTheSky]

Do note that metamagic rods are a thing, so there's that. And if you want more than one metamagic per rod, that's doable via rules in the MIC. Add 50% for the surcharge on additional metamagic feats on one rod. And since you're only restricted to using one metamagic rod per spell -- but metamagic feats per rod aren't limited...well...

I want a quote and page reference in MIC where it specifically says you can get two or more metamagic feats in the same rod by paying more.
Because otherwise, that's a pretty shameless abuse of the intent behind "only one metamagic rod use per spell" restriction.

[Rubik]

I want a quote and page reference in MIC where it specifically says you can get two or more metamagic feats in the same rod by paying more.
Because otherwise, that's a pretty shameless abuse of the intent behind "only one metamagic rod use per spell" restriction.Page 233 under "Improving Magic Items." The whole section. There are no restrictions whatsoever that would prevent metamagic rods working just like every other magic item in the game.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Page 233 under "Improving Magic Items." The whole section. There are no restrictions whatsoever that would prevent metamagic rods working just like every other magic item in the game.

It doesn't need to mention a restriction on metamagic rods, they already have it built in. The onus is on you to show where it says you can have a metamagic rod w/ 2+ feats on it AND apply both of them to the same spell. I won't argue that you can create a "metamagic rod of extend spell and sculpt spell" that gives you 3 uses per day each of the two feats. But the metamagic rods are....well, take it away d20srd (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/rods.htm#metamagicRods)...

Metamagic rods hold the essence of a metamagic feat but do not change the spell slot of the altered spell. All the rods described here are use-activated (but casting spells in a threatened area still draws an attack of opportunity). A caster may only use one metamagic rod on any given spell, but it is permissible to combine a rod with metamagic feats possessed by the rod’s wielder. In this case, only the feats possessed by the wielder adjust the spell slot of the spell being cast.

If I built an amulet of retributive healing (immediate 2/day to heal yourself the amount you heal someone else) and heartseeking (immediate 3/day, next attack hits touch AC....this one is grotesquely underpriced, as a side-note), the MIC rules you quoted would allow me to do so, easily. It would NOT let me use both effects with the same immediate action.
The metamagic rods are use-activated. You can only apply the rod once to a spell. You don't get to apply it to the same spell again.

[Rubik]

It doesn't need to mention a restriction on metamagic rods, they already have it built in. The onus is on you to show where it says you can have a metamagic rod w/ 2+ feats on it AND apply both of them to the same spell. I won't argue that you can create a "metamagic rod of extend spell and sculpt spell" that gives you 3 uses per day each of the two feats. But the metamagic rods are....well, take it away d20srd (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/rods.htm#metamagicRods)...


If I built an amulet of retributive healing (immediate 2/day to heal yourself the amount you heal someone else) and heartseeking (immediate 3/day, next attack hits touch AC....this one is grotesquely underpriced, as a side-note), the MIC rules you quoted would allow me to do so, easily. It would NOT let me use both effects with the same immediate action.
The metamagic rods are use-activated. You can only apply the rod once to a spell. You don't get to apply it to the same spell again.The restriction you're implying is due to the fact that you can only apply a single metamagic feat once. Multiple metamagic feats are fine.

And yes, it's use-activated -- as a non-action. Applying a second metamagic feat via the same rod is also a non-action. How many non-actions can you perform in a round? I'm fairly sure you can perform all of them, since they're not actually actions.

[Aharon]

The restriction you're implying is due to the fact that you can only apply a single metamagic feat once. Multiple metamagic feats are fine.

And yes, it's use-activated -- as a non-action. Applying a second metamagic feat via the same rod is also a non-action. How many non-actions can you perform in a round? I'm fairly sure you can perform all of them, since they're not actually actions.

Not getting into this, because it's not relevant to my point. I explicitly said that you can get metamagic via rods. That doesn't change the fact that, when playing with limited WBL, the amount is limited. Your interpretation sets this limit higher, because you can put more than one feat in a rod, but it's still limited and not "all metamagic feats ever printed", which is what the adorable quantum-wizard plays with :smallbiggrin:

[ericgrau]

Foresight or Dire tortose means he can't be ambushed regardless of how stealthy you are so the best that happens is you activate his contigency teleport even if you somehow win initative
Save the complication of getting into the specifics. <Insert contingency plan here> means nothing will ever work against the wizard that can prepare against everything.

Except I often hear about how foresight is so bad for a 9th level spell. Except when needed for a forum argument.

The real answer with perfect optimization and having all the right spells and contingencies prepared nothing will work in theory. In practice, lots of things could work. Good use of magic items and UMD are probably your best bet. The plan you dismissed should often work in practice.

Don't let another wizard thread devolve into if he does X the wizard could just do Y. It's pointless and meaningless. If he had the right spell and contingency prepared sure he'll succeed. So what? If he doesn't have the right ones then he won't succeed. He can't have everything. If he pulls some loop so that he can have everything, then let's just play with pun pun. If he casts a divination spell to find out what, it's a circular argument because he still needs to prepare the right divination to find out what will happen. There is no divination spell with the blanket effect "Tell me what I need to prepare to win" and 100% reliability.

Instead of specifics and theory, go to generalities and practice ; what may work most of the time. That's the way to meaningful tips. If such a thing has 1 or more counter, so does everything meaningful, unlike pun-pun, and pointing out that counter and stopping there as if that was all there is to it is utterly pointless.

[elonin]

This question is vague. On the other hand it bugs me with the "yes, but" that often crops up and makes full casters (tier 1's i'm looking at you) seem more powerful than they are. Also, that this is a mechanics only question. It's one thing to have a TO thread, but this question implies for use at a gaming table. As though somehow we're discussing a trading card game. Back to my point the replies are reductionist but also assume that all wizards are sleeping in their sanctums once they hit a high enough level. And I've read enough threads that there is no way any wizard is going to be able to cover all these situations mentioned. Wizards are versatile but they can't be ready for everything.

I do agree with the answers like kill them while they sleep or while memorizing spell slots. Or just gank them on the street.

[TheifofZ]

Well Dire tortoise isn't summoned, Its a day to day travel form, All it takes is 1 previous ambush in his previous 18 levels of experience and the idea of "being immune to being surprised is good" and a shapechange modified by a greater metamagic rod of extend is a useful enough investment that it can be safely assumed to be up at almost all times. As for Antimagic field it's weaknesses are numerous. it's a 10 foot radius so unless the wizard casts it himself he will always be 1 free 5 foot step away from safety. Antimagic field also an emmination meaning it is blocked by any solid object between the user and the target Many wizards take advantage of this fact by the rather infamous "pointy hat trick" where the wizards cone shaped hat is actually a 5 foot wide metal cone shrunk to a cloth like consistency by a casting of shrink item which reverts to it's solid emmination blocking self instantly the moment magic is surpressed. At higher optimization levels there is a 5th level spell Invoke magic which allows casting of spells in Null magic areas as well as the prestigue classes Initate of Mystra , Dewemer keeper, And Initiate of the 7 fold veil all of which have built in hard counters to AMF.

So whenever you play a wizard, you are polymorphed into a Dire Tortoise all day long while travelling? And you always PrC into either Initiate of Mystra, Dweomer Keeper, or Initiate of the 7 fold Veil?
... Because if not, then as was just stated, this has turned into Pun-Pun. If someone posits a What-if, and the immediate response is a specific set of spells and PrC abilities, then the immediate response is assuming that the wizard has all PrC classes leveled, and all spells prepared at the same time. This assumed wizard is therefor epic, and not, in fact, level 19.

[Malroth]

If i'm a lv 19 wizard Yes, extended shapechange and or extended foresight will be on any time i'm actually walking around town as well as all 4 elemental body spells, mage armor, false life, and any other hours or days per level buff i've got because it's easier to have them on than not. I might not be a Io7v or initiate of mystra but they're solid prestigue classes on their own and i at least gave them some thought even if antimagic field hasn't been invented yet. and if it has you can bet that i've got an invoke magic and a sanctum dimension door the moment lv 6 spells are CR appropiate for the same reason the Fighter has an Cold Iron backup weapon.

[Windrammer]

Contingency (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/contingency.htm). He still has teleport. No feat investment needed.

My view of this scenario is that if this is another player you have anywhere from a good chance (if they have no idea how to play a wizard and prepared only damage dealing spells) to no chance (if they know how to play a wizard optimally). If it's a DM encounter, you should remind the DM that you are not casters and to take this into consideration when determining how effectively he should make the wizard act in combat. The point of the game after all is to have a challenging but potentially winnable encounter. If it is to party wipe you, there are better systems for that (like Paranoia I think).

Assuming a Wizard contingencies for every conceivable threat every day. Contingency has better answers for this than teleport, and if we're talking about the full extent of hypothetical possibilities then nothing will beat a wizard.

[Sir Toast]

The 1st Way to Kill a Wizard
1. Choose the Deurgar Race
2. Choose a Rogue as your class.
3. Make your dexterity and intelligence very high.
4. Get exp and become level 19.
3. Max out your move silently skill at level 19.
4. Wait till the wizard is sneaking.
5. Move silently towards where the wizard is sleeping.
---With your 120 ft Darkvision you're for sure not going to trip on something (i.e. caltrops) in the dark and wake the wizard up. Racial Bonus in Move Silently, and Move Silently check the wizard most likely
--- With your Racial bonus in move silently, and heavy investment in the skill the wizard will most likely not get a high enough listen check against your move silently dc to hear you.
6. Coup de grace the wizard.
7. Laugh with satisfaction.

[Sir Toast]

The 2nd Way to kill a Wizard
1. Choose the Drow Race (for the +2 intelligence and +2 charisma).
2. Choose the Rogue Class.
3. Make Charisma your highest racial ability and a high intelligence.
4. Gather Experience Points and level up to level 19.
5. Invest all your skill ranks in the Use Magic Device Skill.
6. Get good magic items.
7. Fight magic with magic.
8. Defeat the Wizard

[LudicSavant]

The 1st Way to Kill a Wizard
1. Choose the Deurgar Race
2. Choose a Rogue as your class.
3. Make your dexterity and intelligence very high.
4. Get exp and become level 19.
3. Max out your move silently skill at level 19.
4. Wait till the wizard is sneaking.
5. Move silently towards where the wizard is sleeping.
---With your 120 ft Darkvision you're for sure not going to trip on something (i.e. caltrops) in the dark and wake the wizard up. Racial Bonus in Move Silently, and Move Silently check the wizard most likely
--- With your Racial bonus in move silently, and heavy investment in the skill the wizard will most likely not get a high enough listen check against your move silently dc to hear you.
6. Coup de grace the wizard.
7. Laugh with satisfaction.

The greatest countermeasures you've planned for are caltrops and a sleeping listen check? :smallsigh:

[Sir Toast]

The greatest countermeasures you've planned for are caltrops and a sleeping listen check? :smallsigh:

True..
But its a very vague question so I'm not assuming that theres any special countermeasures that this level 19 Wizard has.

[Hecuba]

If non-caster doesn't cover UMD shenanigans, they are the best option.
Otherwise, the task changes depending on the level of paranoia the wizard is displaying.

As long as they have not yet gone so far as to sequester themselves on a demiplane and use astral projection for in interacting with others, it is workable. The timeframe is problematic, but eventuallly Deep Cover from Spymaster or Z Spy should get you into their confidences well enough that when Foresight or similar goes off they don't immediately suspect you.

[Malroth]

Ideas that actually work, Foresight will go off the moment you decide "i'm going to stab him now" but if you've been his best friend for the last 10 years he's much more likely to simply suspect a Darkstalker rogue wearing an antimagic torc is sneaking up on him than the actual plan.

[daremetoidareyo]

Ideas that actually work, Foresight will go off the moment you decide "i'm going to stab him now" but if you've been his best friend for the last 10 years he's much more likely to simply suspect a Darkstalker rogue wearing an antimagic torc is sneaking up on him than the actual plan.

Nah-uh. Wizard is a CE orphan who never makes any friends that he trusts. Plus no one likes being near him, all he ever does is sit around in dire tortoise form, at RESTAURANTS even, where he spends all day making knowledge rolls to better craft contingency wordings, so he is quite unfriendable.

Orphan is mechanically superior than having a family to be hurt with. I don't understand why anyone wouldn't want to be an orphan.

[Rubik]

Nah-uh. Wizard is a CE orphan who never makes any friends that he trusts. Plus no one likes being near him, all he ever does is sit around in dire tortoise form, at RESTAURANTS even, where he spends all day making knowledge rolls to better craft contingency wordings, so he is quite unfriendable.

Orphan is mechanically superior than having a family to be hurt with. I don't understand why anyone wouldn't want to be an orphan.Ooh! Someone totally gets it!

[Melcar]

wat is the best way to destroy a level 19 wizard with spells as teleport if you are a non caster

Any higher level rogue, with the right feats and equipment!

[qube]

How to kill Shrodingers Wizard as non-caster
fight cheese with CHEESE.

1. max out dimplacy.
2. get the wizard to do all the fighting for you for now on
3. either he dies, or you become the new leader of the multiverse.


edit: idea 2: take the cohort feat, and use a more-cheezey wizard as cohort. (sure, he'd be lower level ... but at this point we're no longer talking spells, but amount of cheese)

[gooddragon1]

Assuming a Wizard contingencies for every conceivable threat every day. Contingency has better answers for this than teleport, and if we're talking about the full extent of hypothetical possibilities then nothing will beat a wizard.

Teleport is the most likely contingency I can think of that a wizard would ever use (barring craft contingency nonsense). In my case, it's not based on a status, it's based on my character projecting a command thought as an immediate action. Immediate actions (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#immediateActions) can be taken any time (even when it isn't your turn), and command thoughts (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/items/basics.htm#commandThought) are normally reserved for psionic items, but I don't see any reason why you'd have to be a psion to project one. They're special in that you have to do more than just think the thought apparently, it requires a degree of desire (I avoid the word concentration to make it so that you can do it even when you can't concentrate, but you really want to escape, though not just every day thinking). Haven't run into it being too convoluted yet so far.

[DMVerdandi]

Let's do this. Lets make a list of things that a wizard needs so that they can safely walk, so we can see exactly what is needed.
Let's hypothesize that enough wizards have been killed so that wizard/archivist guilds in fact have a self defense pamphlet and classes so that they can know what to do just in case someone tries any shenanigans. If these AMF using guys are commonplace, then the understanding that they exist should be too, thus the reaction.


Anybody feel free to add in.

FEATS

Extend spell
Persistent spell
Quicken spell
Invisible spell
Scribe scroll

Pretty easy to maintain. All wizards get bonus spells, so these are just what is best relegate them. Most of the time they are going to be used anyway, so it's just smart to say, sometime in your adventuring career, you are going to need a faster spell, a spell that lasts longer, a spell that lasts WAY longer, and something so that no-one sees what you are doing. FAIR.
Things like reserve feats and other general magic feats are also encouraged.

ALTERNATIVE CLASS FEATURES

Spontaneous Divination
Domain wizard

Domain wizard is good, and really you don't actually lose that much at all from it, but spontaneous divination is AMAZING. It's like taking power attack as a feat really. Just common sense. Wizards are supposed to be wise right? Taking spontaneous divination IN GAME at least amongst the guilds would be like...The use of computers. Like, no one would ever go back to not doing it if it was around.

EQUIPMENT

Metamagic rods
Eternal wands
Storage Item
fortifying bedroll [x3]
Ring of telekinesis
Caster Level Increases


Metamagic rods are obvious, but eternal wands are good for utility spells that you might just have a need for off the cuff. Scrolls are cheaper immediately, but if you end up just using the scrolls you have, you might as well just spend a little extra so that it restores the next day.
Cycle through the fortifying bedrolls so that you can take an hour to prepare. The good thing is that you don't need that 8 hours of doing nothing. You can actually do things and still prepare. You just shouldn't cast from your slots for 8.

Ring of telekinesis is good for throwing stuff.
Alchemical items are very good to throw as well.
SPELLS


Time Stop
Greater Dimension Jumper
Foresight
Instant Refuge#
Contingency#
Spell Engine
Greater Planar Binding#
Greater Celerity
Nerveskitter
Invoke Magic
An instantaneous conjuration spell [Placed in a spell-trigger item]#
Vigilant slumber
Fly
Chain Contingency# [3.0]



All of the spells with number signs don't actually have to be prepared daily, but either are contingent or only need to be cast once. Each Wizard has the ability to use planar binding and have an outsider of their choice at their beck and call.

Personally, I would say a Rakshasa and a Planetar angel as side-kicks is best, but since this is general, anyone anybody picks is fine. I say those two because they both get native spell casting, and the Rakshasa also gets detect thoughts. Planetar has delicious cleric spells.


Essentially you need 9 spells prepared to be able to have a solid defense up.
With a likely INT in the late 20s, you probably won't touch your main spells.

There is no need for a schrödinger's wizard. You can have like all your defenses up for a negligible cost.
That is just basic low level paranoia without cheese. It can get deep.
Not doing those things is dumb and wizards aren't dumb.

[Rubik]

Let's do this. Lets make a list of things that a wizard needs so that they can safely walk, so we can see exactly what is needed.
Let's hypothesize that enough wizards have been killed so that wizard/archivist guilds in fact have a self defense pamphlet and classes so that they can know what to do just in case someone tries any shenanigans. If these AMF using guys are commonplace, then the understanding that they exist should be too, thus the reaction.

Anybody feel free to add in.

FEATS

Extend spell
Persistent spell
Quicken spell
Invisible spell
Scribe scroll

Pretty easy to maintain. All wizards get bonus spells, so these are just what is best relegate them. Most of the time they are going to be used anyway, so it's just smart to say, sometime in your adventuring career, you are going to need a faster spell, a spell that lasts longer, a spell that lasts WAY longer, and something so that no-one sees what you are doing. FAIR.
Things like reserve feats and other general magic feats are also encouraged.

ALTERNATIVE CLASS FEATURES

Spontaneous Divination
Domain wizard

Domain wizard is good, and really you don't actually lose that much at all from it, but spontaneous divination is AMAZING. It's like taking power attack as a feat really. Just common sense. Wizards are supposed to be wise right? Taking spontaneous divination IN GAME at least amongst the guilds would be like...The use of computers. Like, no one would ever go back to not doing it if it was around.

EQUIPMENT

Metamagic rods
Eternal wands
Storage Item
fortifying bedroll [x3]
Ring of telekinesis
Caster Level Increases


Metamagic rods are obvious, but eternal wands are good for utility spells that you might just have a need for off the cuff. Scrolls are cheaper immediately, but if you end up just using the scrolls you have, you might as well just spend a little extra so that it restores the next day.
Cycle through the fortifying bedrolls so that you can take an hour to prepare. The good thing is that you don't need that 8 hours of doing nothing. You can actually do things and still prepare. You just shouldn't cast from your slots for 8.

Ring of telekinesis is good for throwing stuff.
Alchemical items are very good to throw as well.
SPELLS


Time Stop
Greater Dimension Jumper
Foresight
Instant Refuge#
Contingency#
Spell Engine
Greater Planar Binding#
Greater Celerity
Nerveskitter
Invoke Magic
An instantaneous conjuration spell [Placed in a spell-trigger item]#
Vigilant slumber
Fly
Chain Contingency# [3.0]



All of the spells with number signs don't actually have to be prepared daily, but either are contingent or only need to be cast once. Each Wizard has the ability to use planar binding and have an outsider of their choice at their beck and call.

Personally, I would say a Rakshasa and a Planetar angel as side-kicks is best, but since this is general, anyone anybody picks is fine. I say those two because they both get native spell casting, and the Rakshasa also gets detect thoughts. Planetar has delicious cleric spells.

Essentially you need 9 spells prepared to be able to have a solid defense up.
With a likely INT in the late 20s, you probably won't touch your main spells.

There is no need for a schrödinger's wizard. You can have like all your defenses up for a negligible cost.
That is just basic low level paranoia without cheese. It can get deep.
Not doing those things is dumb and wizards aren't dumb.I'd add in Magic Circle Against G/E/L/C, myself. It protects against a very large number of problems, and it knocks out most of the worst mind-affecting attacks while still allowing for mind-affecting buffs.

Also, you can only use a bedroll once every 2 days, regardless of how many you own. I'd go for a ring of sustenance, since that "refreshes the body and mind, so that its wearer needs only sleep 2 hours per day to gain the benefit of 8 hours of sleep." Refreshing your wizard spells is one of the benefits of 8 hours of sleep. Then every other day you refresh them all in 1 hour.

Also, Planar Bubble. Keeping that up means you're immune to wild magic and dead magic zones.

[daremetoidareyo]

Let's do this. Lets make a list of things that a wizard needs so that they can safely walk, so we can see exactly what is needed.
Let's hypothesize that enough wizards have been killed so that wizard/archivist guilds in fact have a self defense pamphlet and classes so that they can know what to do just in case someone tries any shenanigans. If these AMF using guys are commonplace, then the understanding that they exist should be too, thus the reaction.

There is no need for a schrödinger's wizard. You can have like all your defenses up for a negligible cost.
That is just basic low level paranoia without cheese. It can get deep.
Not doing those things is dumb and wizards aren't dumb.

Now, If we build a mundane that can handle this character, will it be accepted?

My first impression is to find a way to target the ref save in the surprise round. If he is planar binding anything, a diplomancer/bluffer build with bluff maximized can use epic rules to suggest via skill check for the planar ally to do deleterious things to the wizard.

We're gonna need to know how the contingency works, so we're gonna need to hire some mook assassins with high spellcraft skills to identify the contingent spell when they send a disposable mook to attack the wizard.

Depending on the displayed contingent spell, we will be able to work our system of attack out.

[Curmudgeon]

The plan can be improved. Firstly, you'll be a Wilderness Rogue 16/Scout 3 with Swift Ambusher. Scout has the best Uncanny Dodge: you cannot be caught flat-footed and that trumps Dire Tortoise. Wilderness Rogue lets you have Camouflage and Hide in Plain Sight (both Extraordinary). Use the Uncanny Bravery ACF to turn the redundant Rogue Improved Uncanny Dodge into a bonus vs. fear attacks and ignore Dragon Frightful Presence (which is Extraordinary) in case the Wizard has a Dragon guard. You'll have sneak attack of +8d6+19 (from Craven) and skirmish of +5d6, +5 AC. Staggering Strike adds the staggered condition to any sneak attack. Crippling Strike adds 2 STR damage to every sneak attack. You'll decrease the Wizard's possible actions and greatly increase the Concentration check DCs required to even attempt to cast a spell (which mostly won't work due to your Antimagic Torc), while rapidly changing the Wizard's status from dire to helpless. It's a belt+suspenders approach, reflecting the seriousness of the risk if the plan doesn't survive contact with the enemy.

As for Foresight, there's a simple answer: deposit (anonymously, in disguise and through intermediaries) a bounty of 100,000 gp, collectible by anyone who kills the Wizard. That's a sizable chunk of the normal level 19 WbL of 580,000 gp, but you can afford it; plus you might just out-source the whole problem. :smallbiggrin: There will be near-constant trips of Foresight because many warnings of impending danger or harm will result from this market solution. Saturate that warning system with real (but lesser) triggers.

If you can't use other magic items in conjunction with an Antimagic Torc your expenditures are greatly simplified. You'll get Tomes and Manuals for inherent ability boosts. You might buy some grafts, such as Feathered Wings for nonmagical flight. You can rent (buy, then resell) a Sparring Dummy of the Master when your Use Magic Device modifier gets to +20, and train (using Emulate a Class Feature for every class feature of a level 1 Monk) to gain the ability to take 10' steps in place of 5' steps. Maybe you can hire an NPC manifester for Matter Manipulation to increase the hardness of your adamantine light blade (the only kind you can use in a grapple) to 25; that way you can deliver poison while you're grappling the Wizard.

I could go through lots of contingencies and options (Death's Ruin ACF if the Wizard is Undead; and Aberration Blood + Inhuman Reach for extended natural reach plus a bonus to grapple checks), but the basic plan is sound: overcome the Wizard's magical attempts at being warned/getting to act first, then just be very stealthy and nonmagical (Nystul's Magic Aura on the Antimagic Torc so it's devoid of magic aura before it's activated). The Wizard, with planning, is at the top of the magic game. Play a different game to destroy them.

[Aharon]

FEATS

Extend spell
Persistent spell
Quicken spell
Invisible spell
Scribe scroll


Pretty easy to maintain. All wizards get bonus spells,

I assume you mean bonus feats? So you're going for wizard 19, without PrCs? Then, you've locked in 4 of the 10 feats you get already.



ALTERNATIVE CLASS FEATURES

Spontaneous Divination
Domain wizard

Domain wizard is good, and really you don't actually lose that much at all from it, but spontaneous divination is AMAZING. It's like taking power attack as a feat really. Just common sense. Wizards are supposed to be wise right? Taking spontaneous divination IN GAME at least amongst the guilds would be like...The use of computers. Like, no one would ever go back to not doing it if it was around.

You've locked in another feat (Spontaneous Divination instead of bonus feat), so you're at 5/10. You've also closed down the focused specialist route.



EQUIPMENT


Yes, pretty nice list. Adding costs of things would be nice. For example, the ring of telekinesis comes in at 75.000 gp, which is a pretty hefty chunk - 12% of your WBL.



SPELLS


GPB requires preparation and more spells - Magic Circle and Dimensional Anchor at the least, but also Debuffs to make sure the outsider fails its save (and actual strict RAW, the spell doesn't work at all).



There is no need for a schrödinger's wizard. You can have like all your defenses up for a negligible cost.
That is just basic low level paranoia without cheese. It can get deep.
Not doing those things is dumb and wizards aren't dumb.

I wouldn't call half of your feats and >>12% of your Wealth negligible.

[Flickerdart]

Step 0: Recognize that a hypothetical scenario has no DM, and that a real DM is susceptible to pizza-based bribes anyway.
Step 1: Be a kobold with Hidden Talent (compression). Acquire +99 modifier to Sleight of Hand and +79 to Escape Artist. The precise means are left as an exercise to the reader - a scroll of sadist is not a bad start.
Step 2: Use Sleight of Hand to move yourself 10 feet. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/skills.htm#sleightOfHand). Take a -20 penalty to do it as a free action.
Step 3: Repeat Step 2 to cover every single square in the world (this is a good time to use the pizza bribe). This will let you find the wizard and get close to him. It is helpful to have a high Hide modifier as well.
Step 4: Use Escape Artist to squeeze into a space 1/4 inch square (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/skills.htm#escapeArtist). An ear canal is plenty roomy at 0.3 inches in diameter, but there are more amusing orifices to choose from.

The wizard probably dies from having a kobold in his brain, but if not, do whatever you feel like.

[daremetoidareyo]

...Brilliant plan...

This is exactly why the schroedinger's wizard falls apart as soon as you ascribe stats to the wizard in question. They have limitations when they are held to a reasonable standard of construction, which is exactly what tier 1 supremacy advocates are frustrated by. The sandbox suddenly has concrete choices by which to abide, all of which can be compensated for through the mundane toolset assuming access to all of the same splat books, (it's just more complicated than being a caster). Any specific build can have an anti-build, which is why, it seems, there tends to be opposition to making a concrete build for a generic 19th level wizard; the lifted expectations of caster supremacy are dashed. This is exactly why some DM's refuse to stat gods. As soon as they're statted, they're killable, and some DMs like their cosmic beings to be undefeatable.

[ben-zayb]

The problem with those suggestions is that you are metagaming. If the wizard, the one rocking the 30s in INT and actually has the resources to do it rather easily, is metagaming too, then you are pretty much boned.

[ExLibrisMortis]

The plan can be improved. Firstly, you'll be a Wilderness Rogue 16/Scout 3 with Swift Ambusher. Scout has the best Uncanny Dodge: you cannot be caught flat-footed and that trumps Dire Tortoise. Wilderness Rogue lets you have Camouflage and Hide in Plain Sight (both Extraordinary). Use the Uncanny Bravery ACF to turn the redundant Rogue Improved Uncanny Dodge into a bonus vs. fear attacks and ignore Dragon Frightful Presence (which is Extraordinary) in case the Wizard has a Dragon guard. You'll have sneak attack of +8d6+19 (from Craven) and skirmish of +5d6, +5 AC. Staggering Strike adds the staggered condition to any sneak attack. Crippling Strike adds 2 STR damage to every sneak attack. You'll decrease the Wizard's possible actions and greatly increase the Concentration check DCs required to even attempt to cast a spell (which mostly won't work due to your Antimagic Torc), while rapidly changing the Wizard's status from dire to helpless. It's a belt+suspenders approach, reflecting the seriousness of the risk if the plan doesn't survive contact with the enemy.

As for Foresight, there's a simple answer: deposit (anonymously, in disguise and through intermediaries) a bounty of 100,000 gp, collectible by anyone who kills the Wizard. That's a sizable chunk of the normal level 19 WbL of 580,000 gp, but you can afford it; plus you might just out-source the whole problem. :smallbiggrin: There will be near-constant trips of Foresight because many warnings of impending danger or harm will result from this market solution. Saturate that warning system with real (but lesser) triggers.

If you can't use other magic items in conjunction with an Antimagic Torc your expenditures are greatly simplified. You'll get Tomes and Manuals for inherent ability boosts. You might buy some grafts, such as Feathered Wings for nonmagical flight. You can rent (buy, then resell) a Sparring Dummy of the Master when your Use Magic Device modifier gets to +20, and train (using Emulate a Class Feature for every class feature of a level 1 Monk) to gain the ability to take 10' steps in place of 5' steps. Maybe you can hire an NPC manifester for Matter Manipulation to increase the hardness of your adamantine light blade (the only kind you can use in a grapple) to 25; that way you can deliver poison while you're grappling the Wizard.

I could go through lots of contingencies and options (Death's Ruin ACF if the Wizard is Undead; and Aberration Blood + Inhuman Reach for extended natural reach plus a bonus to grapple checks), but the basic plan is sound: overcome the Wizard's magical attempts at being warned/getting to act first, then just be very stealthy and nonmagical (Nystul's Magic Aura on the Antimagic Torc so it's devoid of magic aura before it's activated). The Wizard, with planning, is at the top of the magic game. Play a different game to destroy them.
Well...

Foresight can't be 'saturated' - all you're going to do is making the wizard come after you, which is certainly a bad idea for a supposed ambusher.

In the actual fight, the wizard is not flat-footed, due to foresight, and therefore gets to cast celerity. The antimagic field never even reaches the wizard, both because of foresight's warning, and because it is certain to trip contingency, but even if it does, it doesn't stop celerity on account of a persistent invoke magic. The wizard will then kill the rogue, possibly after first leaving to get some specific items, or just to get the drop on the rogue.

The wizard is immune to critical hits and precision damage, naturally, through the four elemental heart spells, or by being a necropolitan, or by shapechange, or by a +1 buckler of heavy fortification. The wizard is also immune to damage, of course - veil of undeath plus the form of a solar, through shapechange. On the topic of shapechange:

Yep, Shadesteel Golems are probably the best general purpose form. Immunity to magic, perfect flight, medium size, acceptable strength and dex, a good list of immunities, and a few other useful abilities.

Beyond that, it really depends on what you want to do. Don't be a Dire Tortoise, shapechange into an Air Weird instead every few hours to use your Su at will Foresight ability.

The big thing with Shapechange is always having the perfect form for whatever you are facing. Whether that is a Lilitu so that you can UMD any item without a check, a Formian Queen for 50 mile telepathy, a Midgard Dwarf for magic item production, an Archon for at will Greater Teleport as an Su, a Chronotyryn for double actions and knowledge bonuses, etc.
Yeah. 50 mile telepathy with Mindsight is probably hard to sneak up on.

[Quertus]

The best way? Hard to say. There a few ways I can think of; not sure which is best:
* Remove his magic

* Attack him inside antimagic.
*Pay the Neogi for a Beholder slave to place him inside its antimagic cone.
*Hit him with dispel / M's D... via items/UMD?
*(Grapple | Remove spell component pouch) + be prepared to counterspell (via items/UMD?) what spells he can still cast
*Send him to Convince him to travel to a non-magical world.
*Convince him to cast M's D on someone carrying an artifact
*Remove his teleport option

*dimensional anchor (via items / UMD?)
*Alpha-strike damage + (stealth | ambush)
*Hire someone else to do it for you.
*Poison
*Disease (a fatal, antimagic-field-producing STD would be optimal)
*Get him addicted to something, like daytime television.

Because not all of these ways will work for all wizards (and none of these ways will work for at least one of my characters), hiring someone else to do it for you is probably your best option - if they fail, you are more likely to still be alive to try again.

To address the "Schrödinger's wizard" problem, I present the following (3e) wizard build, based on what I've seen so far in this thread, with emphasis on the OP's only "stat" - that the wizard has teleport.

Class: Wizard 18 / Tainted Sorcerer 1

Feats: Eschew Materials, Arcane Thesis (Wings of Flurry), Easy Metamagic (Empower), Empower Spell, Quicken Spell, Silent Spell, Still Spell

Items: Foci for Contingency, Focus for Foresight, Focus for Invoke Magic, Itemized gyroscopic pointy tinfoil hat of 95% AM coverage, Ring of Freedom of Movement, Ring of Spell Storing (teleport), Greater Metamagic Rod of Extend, some random artifact carried prominently to discourage use of M's D.

Dwoemers: Foresight, Mind Blank, Contingency ("If about to be the subject of a teleportation-preventing effect (antimagic, dimensional anchor, etc) that my pointy hat doesn't cover --> teleport"), psionic contingency ("If about to be the subject of an effect that would disable/destroy one or more of my items/dwoemers --> teleport"), chain contingency ("If one of my spells would be countered --> teleport, teleport, teleport"), researched-his-own-variant-of Contingency ("If I would be rendered unconscious by an external force --> teleport"), why-not-he-researched-yet-another-variant-of Contingency ("If I want to --> teleport"), Extended Shapechange (default: Dire Tortoise), Persistent Invisibility, <stat boosts, just because>

If this wizard gets to go, he can cast an infinitely-empowered silent stilled quickened Wings of Flurry to utterly destroy everything he doesn't want in a 30' radius, plus spend his standard action casting a save-or-die spell of choice, all at save DC's too high for most beings to even consider making. And he can shapechage to suit the situation (and he may have even taken Assume Supernatural Ability with one or more of his remaining feats). This makes not letting him get to go imperative, and puts the focus on his defenses.

Because the only thing the OP did stat out about the wizard is that he has teleport, this build is highly focused on teleporting as a defense. Although it currently holds teleport, the Ring of Spell Storing is used to allow the wizard to get dwoemers (like Psionic Contingency) from other casters that normally have a range of "self".

Can he be beaten by a non-caster? Certainly. Will it be easy? No. Is any solution that doesn't know his defenses likely to work? Probably not. And that is, in my opinion, the crux of the matter - if all you know is that you are up against a 19th-level wizard, you need to get some intel, need to be ready to improvise, or need to be prepared for failure.

[Flickerdart]

Am I the only one that sees the layout super screwed up after that post?

[Rubik]

Am I the only one that sees the layout super screwed up after that post?It mucked up for me, too.

[daremetoidareyo]

It mucked up for me, too.

Me three.

That tainted sorcerer level 19 is what did it.

Paranoid hypothetical caster just breached the 4th-wall threat to his supremacy.

Obviously, caster is LE, due to obvious spontaneous hacking of other realities, and apparent attempt to instill a favorable groupthink of the minds on this here forum to dissuade them from continuing to contemplate his demise.

Sure, you may think that was just a scripting error or something.

I think wizard 19 with teleport is one heck of a sneaky jerk, trying to undermine our discussion of his destruction.

[Quertus]

Me three.

That tainted sorcerer level 19 is what did it.

Paranoid hypothetical caster just breached the 4th-wall threat to his supremacy.

Obviously, caster is LE, due to obvious spontaneous hacking of other realities, and apparent attempt to instill a favorable groupthink of the minds on this here forum to dissuade them from continuing to contemplate his demise.

Sure, you may think that was just a scripting error or something.

I think wizard 19 with teleport is one heck of a sneaky jerk, trying to undermine our discussion of his destruction.

If the kid(s) across from me weren't *loudly* discussing the video games they're playing, I might feel bad for busting out laughing in the library from reading that post.

Fixed now?

[Aharon]

snip

Whoever is up against this guy wins by default. He has [large number bigger than threshold for whichever version of taint we're using] taint, so he dies as soon as he shapechanges into a dire tortoise, as his type is no longer undead and he isn't immune from the negative effects of taint anymore. :smallbiggrin:

Also, for the purpose of this discussion, I propose leaving infinite or near infinite numbers out and try to stay PO.

[Quertus]

Whoever is up against this guy wins by default. He has [large number bigger than threshold for whichever version of taint we're using] taint, so he dies as soon as he shapechanges into a dire tortoise, as his type is no longer undead and he isn't immune from the negative effects of taint anymore. :smallbiggrin:

While I considered making the build undead to protect from ability damage mentioned by a few posters, I decided this a) would leave him vulnerable to other attacks, and b) is usually noticeable, and the OP didn't say it was an "undead wizard", just a wizard.

But, since Taint drops your Wis... it can be difficult to RP just how wisely the character should avoid taint buildup. So the wizard could still take himself out.

Even without being undead... 18 wis, +4 level-up, +5 inherent, +4+ (X-times empowered) Owl's Wisdom / +6 item enhancement bonus, -25 from taint still leaves you with... 6+ Wisdom and Save DCs of 60+spell level, IIRC. Not much going to make those saves, even without adding in undead unlimited taint shenanigans.

edit - wait, he wouldn't die - he would just fall into a nightmare-filled coma. Unless being a giant tortoise somehow made him no longer quality for Tainted Spellcaster's immunity to negative con from taint.

[Aharon]

Could you clarify which rules basis you're working from? Multiple applications of the same metamagic feat only works in 3e, 3.5 has a clause forbidding that. And which Taint version do you refer to? The one in Unearthed Arcana lowers both Wis and Con, I think. There are alternate versions in Heroes of Horror and Oriental Adventures, AFAIK?

@Immunity to con-effect
i mixed up tainted sorcerer and tainted scholar, you're correct.

[Curmudgeon]

Foresight can't be 'saturated' - all you're going to do is making the wizard come after you, which is certainly a bad idea for a supposed ambusher.
The Wizard using Foresight is the one being saturated with many real threats every day. Foresight has a duration of only 10 min./level, so even 5 castings a day (which assumes the Wizard has an INT in the 36-43 range) at CL 20 will exhaust all level 9 daily spells and still provide Foresight for less than 70% of the day. As for the Wizard coming after the Rogue, how is that supposed to happen? The Rogue isn't (yet) attacking the Wizard; the attackers are motivated by reward money already on deposit with a bank/lawyer/advocate, so attacking the Rogue would do nothing. Plus the bank/lawyer/advocate has no idea who the Rogue is.

In the actual fight, the wizard is not flat-footed, due to foresight
Again, how is a level 19 Wizard going to have Foresight up all the time?

and therefore gets to cast celerity.
You're presupposing the surprise round starts before the Rogue gets to within 10' of the Wizard. Why?

[ryu]

The Wizard using Foresight is the one being saturated with many real threats every day. Foresight has a duration of only 10 min./level, so even 5 castings a day (which assumes the Wizard has an INT in the 36-43 range) at CL 20 will exhaust all level 9 daily spells and still provide Foresight for less than 70% of the day. As for the Wizard coming after the Rogue, how is that supposed to happen? The Rogue isn't (yet) attacking the Wizard; the attackers are motivated by reward money already on deposit with a bank/lawyer/advocate, so attacking the Rogue would do nothing. Plus the bank/lawyer/advocate has no idea who the Rogue is.

Again, how is a level 19 Wizard going to have Foresight up all the time?

You're presupposing the surprise round starts before the Rogue gets to within 10' of the Wizard. Why?

Because even the barest bones of optimization assumes the that the wizard is smart enough to buy a rod of extend and that mindsight is easily obtainable? Try asking hard questions next time.

[Curmudgeon]

Because even the barest bones of optimization assumes the that the wizard is smart enough to buy a rod of extend and that mindsight is easily obtainable? Try asking hard questions next time.
Extend Spell applied to Foresight at CL 20 still provides only 400 minutes of protection, while the Wizard needs 480 minutes of rest, then 60 minutes for spell preparation. That's 80-140 minutes of vulnerability.

As for Mindsight, that's not so easily obtainable.
Prerequisite: Telepathy special quality. Unless you're positing that every Wizard is nongood and dips into Mindbender? Even for those with Mindsight, Mind Blank + Nystul's Magic Aura on the Rogue will keep them outside the Wizard's telepathy range regardless of distance.

[ryu]

Extend Spell applied to Foresight at CL 20 still provides only 400 minutes of protection, while the Wizard needs 480 minutes of rest, then 60 minutes for spell preparation. That's 80-140 minutes of vulnerability.

As for Mindsight, that's not so easily obtainable. Unless you're positing that every Wizard is nongood and dips into Mindbender? Even for those with Mindsight, Mind Blank + Nystul's Magic Aura on the Rogue will keep them outside the Wizard's telepathy range regardless of distance.

For literally one casting. Do we even need to go over how easy it is to obtain more?

Further lets assume you even get within range of the wizard for the sake of argument. Did you know that free astral projection is just one effective casting of planar binding away? Suddenly you pull your little surprise trick and the wizard you were hunting just disappears before waking up a few rounds later in his own genesis plane. That is what it means to deal with a high level caster. Even if you somehow pierce their nominal defenses they still won't die. Even if they do die they still won't stay dead due to any number of fun death contingency planes like clone or nests of crafted contingent spells.

[Quertus]

Could you clarify which rules basis you're working from? Multiple applications of the same metamagic feat only works in 3e, 3.5 has a clause forbidding that. And which Taint version do you refer to? The one in Unearthed Arcana lowers both Wis and Con, I think. There are alternate versions in Heroes of Horror and Oriental Adventures, AFAIK?

@Immunity to con-effect
i mixed up tainted sorcerer and tainted scholar, you're correct.

I usually think in terms of Taint from Unearthed Arcana, although I first read it in Oriental Adventures. I considered both 3e and 3.5 in building this template (the OP didn't specify), although I didn't express it well. This is why his wisdom gets either +4 enhancement from Owl's Wisdom (3.5), or +??? from multiple-empowered Owl's Wisdom (3e)... or just +6 from an item. I guess his offensive spells would be slightly different in 3.5 as well... but then, the point of this build was supposed to be *hand wave* "yeah, don't let him take a turn - let's focus on his defenses".

... Tainted Scholar *doesn't* get an immunity to Taint's Con reduction?! Ouch. And here I was, thinking that it was an almost playable version of Tainted Sorcerer.

[Curmudgeon]

For literally one casting. Do we even need to go over how easy it is to obtain more?
How much casting is the Wizard going to get done if they can't get their mandatory rest? The very real warnings from Foresight (hundreds of folks hoping to claim the 100,000 gp bounty for killing the Wizard) will keep the Wizard from preparing spells, day after day.

Further lets assume you even get within range of the wizard for the sake of argument. Did you know that free astral projection is just one effective casting of planar binding away? Suddenly you pull your little surprise trick and the wizard you were hunting just disappears before waking up a few rounds later in his own genesis plane. That is what it means to deal with a high level caster.
It doesn't work at all like that.

You project your astral self onto the Astral Plane, leaving your physical body behind on the Material Plane in a state of suspended animation.
Lets leave aside that we're talking a Wizard, not a Psion who can manifest Genesis. With Astral Projection the physical body is left behind on the Material Plane, not in some demiplane. Your Wizard can't do what you claim.

[daremetoidareyo]

How much casting is the Wizard going to get done if they can't get their mandatory rest? The very real warnings from Foresight (hundreds of folks hoping to claim the 100,000 gp bounty for killing the Wizard) will keep the Wizard from preparing spells, day after day.


Nevermind the fact that your industrious rogue/scout also talked to some 7th level or so clerics of loki into using the sending spell into sending 25 words of high volume screams at 6 hour intervals or so. No save. (https://www.reddit.com/r/DnDGreentext/comments/3pbp5l/psychological_warfare/)

[ryu]

How much casting is the Wizard going to get done if they can't get their mandatory rest? The very real warnings from Foresight (hundreds of folks hoping to claim the 100,000 gp bounty for killing the Wizard) will keep the Wizard from preparing spells, day after day.

It doesn't work at all like that.

Lets leave aside that we're talking a Wizard, not a Psion who can manifest Genesis. With Astral Projection the physical body is left behind on the Material Plane, not in some demiplane. Your Wizard can't do what you claim.

Actually that's just the casting of astral projection. Literally nothing stops you from moving the location of your physical body after you've cast it. Nice try. Second genesis is also an arcane spell for the creation of a plane. Psions got a weaker version of this spell later in power form. Thirdly foresight only has to be a waking defense. All manner of fun things can be built into a demiplane to deter interlopers, and all manner of contingent defenses and minions as well.

As for the sending trick: Cute. That first requires familiarity with the wizard in question. You would first require clerics who had actually met the wizard or at least his projection, or possibly clones. That's before we even talk about defenses to it by the way.

[Malroth]

surprise round starts as soon as one party sees the other, since the assumption is the wizard is in town for whatever reason and isn't trying to avoid detection it begins as soon as the rogue decides "that's the guy"

[daremetoidareyo]

Actually that's just the casting of astral projection. Literally nothing stops you from moving the location of your physical body after you've cast it. Nice try. Second genesis is also an arcane spell for the creation of a plane. Psions got a weaker version of this spell later in power form. Thirdly foresight only has to be a waking defense. All manner of fun things can be built into a demiplane to deter interlopers, and all manner of contingent defenses and minions as well.

As for the sending trick: Cute. That first requires familiarity with the wizard in question. You would first require clerics who had actually met the wizard or at least his projection, or possibly clones. That's before we even talk about defenses to it by the way.

It's not that difficult to become familiar with someone that you want to kill. Unless your contention is that the wizard in question being sought for slaying has always been a projection, in which case, the difference is moot: You kill what you set out to kill. If I'm totally honest, this wizards entire schtick reads a lot more like convoluted ways to get dead x-men back to life than it does like wizard behavior.

[Curmudgeon]

Second genesis is also an arcane spell for the creation of a plane. Psions got a weaker version of this spell later in power form.
I think you've got that "weaker version" bit backward. The spell Genesis (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/spells/genesis.htm) has this restriction:
Effect: A demiplane coterminous with the Ethereal Plane, centered on your location
...
A character can only cast this spell while on the Ethereal Plane.
So you've got the difficulty of getting your physical body to the Ethereal Plane in order to reach the demiplane.

But that doesn't really matter, because Astral Projection makes the Wizard trivially easy to kill. The Rogue simply needs a Githyanki Silver Sword (Monster Manual, page 128) and one slice does the job.
If the cord is broken, you are killed, astrally and physically.

[ryu]

I think you've got that "weaker version" bit backward. The spell Genesis (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/spells/genesis.htm) has this restriction:
So you've got the difficulty of getting your physical body to the Ethereal Plane in order to reach the demiplane.

But that doesn't really matter, because Astral Projection makes the Wizard trivially easy to kill. The Rogue simply needs a Githyanki Silver Sword (Monster Manual, page 128) and one slice does the job.

Plane shift is a simple spell you silly billy.

Further the sword method requires that magic be active in the area as otherwise the sword has no magic and the projection disappears anyway. Do I seriously need to get into all the various counters for that strategy that are also part of standard defense?

Oh and for the sending poster: This is what happens when you give someone who doesn't want to die high level magic. They become especially good at not dying.

[Flickerdart]

The Rogue simply needs a Githyanki Silver Sword (Monster Manual, page 128) and one slice does the job.
Aren't silver swords supposed to be minor artifact grade weapons? A rogue that has one is probably too busy being murdered by Gith to worry about any wizards.

Edit: 3.0 said that silver swords were 98,350gp weapons and only +5 ones were artifacts. 3.5 lists no purchase price, only an enchantment equivalent for upgrading. Still, they are greatswords, which a rogue is rubbish at using in combat, and nothing suggests that the "cut silver cord" ability is part of the "anti-psionic ability" that's given a cost. So the only way to get one is to steal it from a githyanki, and then get rekt.

[ryu]

Aren't silver swords supposed to be minor artifact grade weapons? A rogue that steals one is probably too busy being murdered by Gith to worry about any wizards.

Also true. I just prefer to argue from the perspective of allowing as many opposed assumptions as possible while still showing them as insufficient to shift the argument. Even if the assumptions aren't reliable it still further improves the strength of the argument they're used against. If that doesn't work you've a trump card to play in showing just how many assumptions were allowed before popping them like bubbles.

[daremetoidareyo]

Might I suggest a different route.

How about a half elf/changeling rogue/marshal/mythic exemplar with a few other dips specializing in bluff/diplomancy/sense motive.

Epic skill usage for bluff is a simple 50+ roll to instill a suggestion for ten minutes. Totally easily handled by level 16. Wizards don't get sense motive natively. Suggest that he live a little and dispense with all of the silly protections, or anything that helps you towards your goal of smashing his face, like Quest giving him in return for decent remuneration. Bing bang boom. Teleport wizard 19 of total invulnerability is playdoh in your hands. Multiple bluff rolls may be necessary. The power of lies, dude, it's real. Works in an antimagic field.

With an item familiar, you can pump that sense motive up high enough to be detecting the dude's surface thoughts (at around 100+) which should be enough to counteract his very rational mechanistic arguments. If item familiar isn't allowed, you can use animal handling to rear 100s of mice to make unskilled aid another attempts to sense motive while taking up the squares around you for +2 per 10. If you had 100 mice aid you, it is a total of +50 to your sense motive roll. Heck you could train dozens of tiny humming birds to aid you in walking on clouds. Unskilled checks + tiny animals is a fun concept.

[noob]

The way to destroy a level 19 wizard is to find one which is willing to be destroyed it is the simplest way.
have an level 19 wizard ally and say him that for a gamble you need to kill a level 19 wizard and so that it would be nice if he made an ice assassin of itself and ordered him to let itself be killed by you.

[Curmudgeon]

Aren't silver swords supposed to be minor artifact grade weapons? A rogue that has one is probably too busy being murdered by Gith to worry about any wizards.
Nope, not artifacts. And the only mentions of their being special are just rumors.

It is rumored that each githyanki warrior has but one silver sword, and if the weapon is lost or stolen, the githyanki must seek it out at all costs or be killed by its superiors. That may be only a legend, but githyanki have been known to exact terrible revenge upon those who steal their silver swords or win them in battle.
So ease of acquisition would be up to each DM. Certainly those Githyanki killed in battle aren't going to be exacting any revenge on their conquerors.

[Flickerdart]

Nope, not artifacts. And the only mentions of their being special are just rumors.

So ease of acquisition would be up to each DM. Certainly those Githyanki killed in battle aren't going to be exacting any revenge on their conquerors.
"I'll just pull out my DM-fiated item" doesn't seem like a solid battle plan.

[ExLibrisMortis]

@daremetoidareyou: I believe suggestion remains mind-affecting, even if induced by Bluff, and the Fanatic attitude is explicitly mind-affecting. The wizard is using mind blank or protection from evil, so those two skill uses aren't too useful.

@Curmudgeon: The wizard will have foresight up exactly as is spelled out in Tippy's post I quoted: persistent shapechange to acquire (Su) foresight at-will. The wizard will naturally not be asleep for 480 minutes per night - they'll be resting, but as an elf or undead.

If the wizard is using circle magic or consumptive field (or both), an extended foresight could last 600 (extended 2 * CL 30 * 10 mins/level), 800 (extended 2 * CL 40 * 10 mins/level) or even 1200 (extended 2 * CL 60 * 10 mins/level) minutes per casting^. The figures are just examples, and can be higher or lower, of course, but you should be able to make do with one casting at night, and shapechange for the rest.


^ That's 1800 minutes if greater consumptive field can multiply CL 60 to get CL 90, but then you need to emulate a much higher-levelled spell. Although (Su) or (Sp) wish or miracle doesn't particularly care, of course.

[daremetoidareyo]

Possible maneuver for the curmuegeons antimagic torc rogue scout who has placed a 100k gp bounty, & requisitioned a bunch of sending spells to eat up sleep recovery time.

Pay someone to attack you for 10 damage within 30' feet of caster, for whatever reason, pimp out your disguise as much as possible. Use your combat panache feat to play dead in front of him. Combat panache removes any dex bonus to AC, allowing sneak attack to get through. Use that skill trick that lets you get up from prone as a free action. Skirmish/sneak hit with your morphic adaptive githyanki silver sword (it's crescent knives if dragon mag is allowed).

[Flickerdart]

Pay someone to attack you for 10 damage within 30' feet of caster, for whatever reason, pimp out your disguise as much as possible. Use your combat panache feat to play dead in front of him. Combat panache removes any dex bonus to AC, allowing sneak attack to get through. Use that skill trick that lets you get up from prone as a free action. Skirmish/sneak hit with your morphic adaptive githyanki silver sword (it's crescent knives if dragon mag is allowed).
This plan assumes that the wizard will walk up to some idiot that got ganked in front of him, for no reason. What stops him from just walking away - if indeed the wizard walks places?

[daremetoidareyo]

This plan assumes that the wizard will walk up to some idiot that got ganked in front of him, for no reason. What stops him from just walking away - if indeed the wizard walks places?

Who says the fight can't be brought within 30' of the wizard? the panache is an immediate action, which can be immediately followed by the rogues turn, unless initiative is rolled right then. Command word for anti magic torc is "Oof"

Who says that the perform skill can't be paired with animal handling to have the disguised rogues trained warbeast warhorse to kick him for that much damage after "acting" to be scared by the presence of the almighty wizard that the rogue was walking by. Did I forget to mention the luhix drug from BOVD is the preferred drug/poison of choice? (DC 25 death)

...All you need is a plausible reason to be walking a horse, or any skittish creature near said mage...

Maybe during a spell component shopping trip.

Let's be honest, it is a little Oceans 11. But as we can all agree, wizard 19 with teleport is a wily Bstard.

[Curmudgeon]

Plane shift is a simple spell you silly billy.
This is really annoying, but it might be worth the expenditure (since you'll get all the Wizard's loot when you destroy them). A Weirdstone (Player's Guide to Faerûn, pages 124-125) is fabulously expensive (250,000 gp) but blocks teleportation as well as astral and ethereal travel within 6 miles. Activate one of those nearby, including on the coterminous areas of the Ethereal or Astral Planes, and the Wizard's not going anywhere through the Astral plane without moving 6 miles away on the Material Plane first. This isn't a threat to the Wizard so Foresight won't provide any warning. Most evasion spells would just fail.
Spell Failure

If you ever try to cast a spell in conditions where the characteristics of the spell cannot be made to conform, the casting fails and the spell is wasted.

[ryu]

This is really annoying, but it might be worth the expenditure (since you'll get all the Wizard's loot when you destroy them). A Weirdstone (Player's Guide to Faerûn, pages 124-125) is fabulously expensive (250,000 gp) but blocks teleportation as well as astral and ethereal travel within 6 miles. Activate one of those nearby, including on the coterminous areas of the Ethereal or Astral Planes, and the Wizard's not going anywhere through the Astral plane without moving 6 miles away on the Material Plane first. This isn't a threat to the Wizard so Foresight won't provide any warning. Most evasion spells would just fail.

That's nice. Doesn't really matter though because it's a defensive measure at best and the wizard has no need to be within six miles of you when setting up his daily projection. The only requirement is some location on the prime at time of gaining the projection effect. That could be literally anywhere on the planet, the moon, or any number of other fun places randomly selected. Also if you find this annoying I recommend thinking several steps ahead in the argument. Examples of how to do this would involve asking yourself if there are any obvious solutions to your counterargument.

[daremetoidareyo]

That's nice. Doesn't really matter though because it's a defensive measure at best and the wizard has no need to be within six miles of you when setting up his daily projection. The only requirement is some location on the prime at time of gaining the projection effect. That could be literally anywhere on the planet, the moon, or any number of other fun places randomly selected. Also if you find this annoying I recommend thinking several steps ahead in the argument. Examples of how to do this would involve asking yourself if there are any obvious solutions to your counterargument.

This is more of a war of intellectual attrition. So one step at a time is fine, especially with each new thing being applied to wizard 19 with teleport locking him down into a single character build. Thinking more than one step ahead is actually worse than plodding through each fence thrown up in the caster's defense. You can get a weird stone within 6 miles of the wizard's base no problem. The problem is temporal, that wizard can start those weird projections much sooner than level 19. And I'm assuming that we're not hunting this wizard 19 with teleport for multiple levels.

The real fun is going to be getting those contingencies hammered out.

[elonin]

In the absence of persist Foresight isn't an all day spell. It's main benefit is just not being flat footed.

This might have been previously discussed, but does a warlock do the job? I played in a low optimization group that included a warrior type with the feat that makes concentration checks impossible.

Maybe leadership?

[Rubik]

The real fun is going to be getting those contingencies hammered out.Celerity is the best spell to set up for the Contingency spell, while Greater Celerity and Time Stop are ideal for Craft Contingent Spell, assuming they're applied to the wizard, rather than, say, a boatload of minions. Set them to go off when he's approached by an AMF, when he's about to enter a dead magic zone, and whenever he performs a specific free action that can be done between turns.

[Curmudgeon]

That's nice. Doesn't really matter though because it's a defensive measure at best and the wizard has no need to be within six miles of you when setting up his daily projection.
Actually I think the Weirdstone would sever the silvery cord if it was anywhere within 6 miles, seeing as the cord travels through the Astral Plane and the Weirdstone makes that impossible.
While you are on the Astral Plane, your astral body is connected at all times to your physical body by a silvery cord. If the cord is broken, you are killed, astrally and physically.

Also if you find this annoying I recommend thinking several steps ahead in the argument.
Huh? No, the discussion is fun. I just find the expense of the Weirdstone annoying.

[Rubik]

Actually I think the Weirdstone would sever the silvery cord if it was anywhere within 6 miles, seeing as the cord travels through the Astral Plane and the Weirdstone makes that impossible.

Huh? No, the discussion is fun. I just find the expense of the Weirdstone annoying.The silver cord isn't traveling through planes.

[dascarletm]

After that, use one of several ways to make sure the wizard is dead for realsies, starting with finely dicing the corpse and keeping it very separate to negate the basic Revive magics. True Revive/Wish and other high level options don't necessarily require a body, and you need to make sure he really can't come back, not even as a spirit. Because if not, he will come back to life, find out who killed him, and return the favor.

Use a Thinaunum (or however you spell it) blade from CWar to prevent resurrection.

[daremetoidareyo]

Celerity is the best spell to set up for the Contingency spell, while Greater Celerity and Time Stop are ideal for Craft Contingent Spell, assuming they're applied to the wizard, rather than, say, a boatload of minions. Set them to go off when he's approached by an AMF, when he's about to enter a dead magic zone, and whenever he performs a specific free action that can be done between turns.

Let's assume that those are a part of wizard 19 with teleport's repertoire, what do you do & how do you deal with the dazing effect?

Curmudgeon's build + combat panache luhix guy attacks. Here is my very unlikely to pull off scenario to address it. We need make a manually resetting sprayer trap, keyed to the command action of a horse kicking the rogue. The sprayer will spray quintessence in a cone facing the caster. Rogue says oof. antimagic field goes off. contingency celerity goes off. time stop is casted by wizard 19 with teleport. Caster takes all of those actions. But the effects of those actions are locked in the time stop by the quintessence. Maybe????


I mean I'm gambling a hypothetical rogue 16/scout 3's life on it. I'm going to assume that this obviously way too wealthy rogue did an experiment with this first.

With the leadership feat, might I suggest A zerth cenobyte cohort, I don't know, but he seems important to address the timestop shenanigans.

[ryu]

Actually I think the Weirdstone would sever the silvery cord if it was anywhere within 6 miles, seeing as the cord travels through the Astral Plane and the Weirdstone makes that impossible.

Huh? No, the discussion is fun. I just find the expense of the Weirdstone annoying.

Actually it's just a simple object linking other objects. It's not traveling any more than a length of rope can be said to travel between to objects it ties up. That phrasing is just a form of slang and pretty clearly not what weirdstone is referencing. Even assuming it would end the spell there's no reason to assume death of the wizard rather than the given text in the spell for when it ends forcefully.

Also I never said anything about material plane bases. You literally only need a random spot on the material plane from which to have the spell like ability of the nightmare used on you. This can be literally anywhere on the plane, but ideally the locations picked should be far away from any noticeable landmark, and damned hard to travel to by most means. Further you'll never ''run out'' of these locations because the universe doesn't have a finite size. Even if it did have a finite size you'd never be able to cover every sphere six miles in radius with weirdness because lolno those are expensive relative to wealth at this level.

On craft contingent spells: I was actually saving that for later. That's a significantly higher order of raw power than I've had to bring so far. After that you start seeing ambrosia farms and ice assassin minions with crafted spells on them.

[PoeticDwarf]

wat is the best way to destroy a level 19 wizard with spells as teleport if you are a non caster

NOTE, VERY IMPORTANT

This thread was for 5e forum:smalleek:, something went wrong.

[ZamielVanWeber]

NOTE, VERY IMPORTANT

This thread was for 5e forum:smalleek:, something went wrong.

OP posted in the wrong forum and Mark Hall was stuck taking an educated guess as to where the post actually belonged. I guess OP never said he wanted it in the 5 subforum.

That aside this has sparked an interesting discussion and I see no reason for this to stop it.

[daremetoidareyo]

What is the DC to slip a greater ring of counterspells onto someone's hand without them noticing?

[Curmudgeon]

What is the DC to slip a greater ring of counterspells onto someone's hand without them noticing?
It's an opposed check: you need to beat their Spot with your Sleight of Hand, with the DM likely adding circumstance modifiers.

[Flickerdart]

It's an opposed check: you need to beat their Spot with your Sleight of Hand, with the DM likely adding circumstance modifiers.
Why Sleight of Hand? The skill lets you:

Palm a coin-sized, unattended object
Hide an object on your person
Take something from another creature
Entertain an audience by juggling

Which one of these listed uses is "Spot vs Sleight of Hand to put a ring on it"?

[Rubik]

Which one of these listed uses is "Spot vs Sleight of Hand to put a ring on it"?The one where she tricks you into marrying her.

[daremetoidareyo]

Why Sleight of Hand? The skill lets you:

Palm a coin-sized, unattended object
Hide an object on your person
Take something from another creature
Entertain an audience by juggling

Which one of these listed uses is "Spot vs Sleight of Hand to put a ring on it"?

A skill use to take an item surreptitiously from another sentient being is just as applicable for the planting of an item upon that being. It's an obtuse position to suggest that secretly planting stuff through legerdemain doesn't fall within appropriate use of sleight of hand, just because this one particular use isn't amongst the enumerated options.

The description of the skill itself lends itself to applications other than those specifically listed with DCs. The description of the skill says that you can "perform some feat of legerdemain with an object no larger than a hat or a loaf of bread." Which can totally be planting evidence or slipping a magic ring onto someone. It fits directly into that clause.

Just like how that 14th amendment protects one to a right to privacy: it isn't specifically itemized, Nowhere anywhere in the constitution is there a mention of an individual right to privacy. But if you are deprived of privacy without due process of law, your constitutional rights have been breached. The whole idea of making the US a republic was to guarantee maximum freedom: the right to do anything, and those seeking to curtail it must justify those curtailments.

It's an unjustified curtailment to limit sleight of hand solely to the enumerated examples of use.

[Flickerdart]

It's an unjustified curtailment to limit sleight of hand solely to the enumerated examples of use.
The DM is always free to call for any skill to oppose any other skill. The players are limited to things actually written in the rules, without DM permission. The anti-wizard character is not the DM, and doesn't get to make that call.

The Constitution is not an RPG ruleset.

[daremetoidareyo]

The DM is always free to call for any skill to oppose any other skill. The players are limited to things actually written in the rules, without DM permission. The anti-wizard character is not the DM, and doesn't get to make that call.

The Constitution is not an RPG ruleset.

Regardless, the player is using slight of hand for legerdemain using an item that is smaller than a loaf of bread. It's totally covered by the description of the skill. The RPG ruleset covers this. The DM simply has to choose the DC and the modifiers.

[Flickerdart]

Regardless, the player is using slight of hand for legerdemain using an item that is smaller than a loaf of bread. It's totally covered by the description of the skill. The RPG ruleset covers this. The DM simply has to choose the DC and the modifiers.
Just because the skill's vague general description refers to handling small objects does not mean the skill can be used to do whatever you want with those objects. Because there are no rules that actually say you can do this, the DM is necessary to rule whether it's allowed at all, not merely how hard it is.

[dascarletm]

DC 20 to take "something" from the creature. Something is not defined. You take their finger (or nose - ha ha got your nose!) then put the ring on it.... duh.

Alternatively you just take the wizards "ability to use magic," or "class levels." Even if he meets your SoH, if you beat a 20 you take it anyway he just notices.

[Flickerdart]

DC 20 to take "something" from the creature. Something is not defined. You take their finger (or nose - ha ha got your nose!) then put the ring on it.... duh.

Alternatively you just take the wizards "ability to use magic," or "class levels." Even if he meets your SoH, if you beat a 20 you take it anyway he just notices.
The rest of the paragraph references "the item" twice. None of the things you listed are items.

[daremetoidareyo]

https://sketch.io/render/sketch5627ed3556ceb.png

https://sketch.io/render/sketch5627efff3721d.png

[dascarletm]

The rest of the paragraph references "the item" twice. None of the things you listed are items.

Shoot. My very serious argument has been bested! :smalltongue:

However, abandoning my facetious argument...

1. Is there a DnD definition of item? My preliminary search on the SRD found nothing.
2. Just because it is referred to as an item does not mean it is limited to be an item. Nowhere does it say you must steal an item, and not, say, a cricket resting in your mark's palm.


If you try to take something from another creature, you must make a DC 20 Sleight of Hand check to obtain it.
So far it can be anything falling under the definition of "something."


The opponent makes a Spot check to detect the attempt, opposed by the same Sleight of Hand check result you achieved when you tried to grab the item.
This doesn't strike me as laying out groundwork as to what is and is not appropriate to steal from a character. I can see your interpretation, but without verbage limiting our "something" to only "items" I believe that is only an interpretation.


An opponent who succeeds on this check notices the attempt, regardless of whether you got the item.
Same here.

Take this with a grain of salt as I'm only half-serious. :smallwink:

EDIT:

https://sketch.io/render/sketch5627ed3556ceb.png
Brilliant.

[Flickerdart]

1. Is there a DnD definition of item? My preliminary search on the SRD found nothing.
2. Just because it is referred to as an item does not mean it is limited to be an item. Nowhere does it say you must steal an item, and not, say, a cricket resting in your mark's palm.


So far it can be anything falling under the definition of "something."


This doesn't strike me as laying out groundwork as to what is and is not appropriate to steal from a character. I can see your interpretation, but without verbage limiting our "something" to only "items" I believe that is only an interpretation.

The general skill description, which some people believe has any sort of weight, reads "You can cut or lift a purse and hide it on your person, palm an unattended object, hide a light weapon in your clothing, or perform some feat of legerdemain with an object no larger than a hat or a loaf of bread." This clearly enumerates that you can operate on a purse, an object, or a weapon. Furthermore, the "take something" use requires that you "grab the item" and we can infer that it must be grabbed with your hand, since it's in the very name of the skill. As far as I know, it's impossible to pick up a level or a spell slot with your hand. :smallwink:

[dascarletm]

Good point... I... well... :smallmad:

[daremetoidareyo]

The general skill description, which some people believe has any sort of weight, reads "You can cut or lift a purse and hide it on your person, palm an unattended object, hide a light weapon in your clothing, or perform some feat of legerdemain with an object no larger than a hat or a loaf of bread." This clearly enumerates that you can operate on a purse, an object, or a weapon. Furthermore, the "take something" use requires that you "grab the item" and we can infer that it must be grabbed with your hand, since it's in the very name of the skill. As far as I know, it's impossible to pick up a level or a spell slot with your hand. :smallwink:

I mean if we're ignoring descriptions, we might as well disregard all that flavor text underneath a spells stat block, I mean a DM has to rule on all of that too. This isn't some flavor text, it explains what the skill does, no different than the text that explains silent or minor image.

"Sorry, forum participants, some DMs might not believe that an golem's ghost is technically a creature or object or force and therefor you cannot make an illusion of one."

[Flickerdart]

This isn't some flavor text, it explains what the skill does, no different than the text that explains silent or minor image.

It explains what the skill does in general terms, and then the skill goes on to explain the specifics. This is similar to how the italicized description of a spell in Spell Compendium doesn't actually let you do anything that the spell's description doesn't say you can.

[daremetoidareyo]

If you balance a ring on the tip of your finger, and you have the ability to hide in plainsight, you can claim to be hiding it on your person, despite it being around another persons finger. Opposed spot check, with a tactile sensation modifier of + something. Text doesn't say that the object being handled can't be in plain view or touching the person making a spot check.

[Flickerdart]

I'm not even sure what you're trying to say at this point.

[daremetoidareyo]

Anyway, assuming you have a DM who understands how sleght of hand works, our intrepid wilderness rogue 16/scout 3 with combat panache and probably city of stormreach's Master pickpocket feat, the rogue can slip a ring of greater counterspells keyed to dispel celerity onto the mages finger as a free action.
He gets kicked by his trained horse
He says "oof"
Oof is the command word to trigger the antimagic torc
Mages contigency celerity kicks in, because it was keyed to being present in an antimagic field
Celerity is counterspelled by the ring
Rogue plays dead according to combat panache
Rogue attacks immediately
Hopeful that precision damage is enough to kill mage.
Iteratives + luhix forces a dc 25 fort save vs. death for every strike after the first.

[ryu]

You guys do realize that this plan requires the ring slots not already be filled right? Further it requires that you have actual access to the filled ring slot rather than the glove that's worn over it. Similarly all items of real value or important are hidden inside a large flowing garment. Why if I remember properly you may even call it a robe. The robe is non-magical of course. The real magic item for that slot is worn under it. There are also hilarious large numbers of redundant copies of anything cheap but important like spell component pouches. Why? I've seen my fair share of people who think they can take my casting from me. I prefer they waste their own time instead.

[dascarletm]

If you add additional rings (past slot limit) don't only the most recently put on ones function?

[daremetoidareyo]

You guys do realize that this plan requires the ring slots not already be filled right? Further it requires that you have actual access to the filled ring slot rather than the glove that's worn over it. Similarly all items of real value or important are hidden inside a large flowing garment. Why if I remember properly you may even call it a robe. The robe is non-magical of course. The real magic item for that slot is worn under it. There are also hilarious large numbers of redundant copies of anything cheap but important like spell component pouches. Why? I've seen my fair share of people who think they can take my casting from me. I prefer they waste their own time instead.

slight of hand to get a hand of glory with said ring onto caster.

[ryu]

slight of hand to get a hand of glory with said ring onto caster.

Neck slot. Doesn't work. The rule about not having multiple items in the same slot doesn't just apply to rings. What self respecting level 19 character has empty slots? Even slightly useful but cheap magic is better than no magic and that's assuming no updating with actual purchasing.

[Flickerdart]

Why bother with weapon attacks at all? Just get a Cloak of Poisonousness and Sleight of Hand it onto every wizard you see for save VS death. And while you're at it, slip some Gauntlets of Fumbling onto the caster so he can't handle magic components. And a Necklace of Strangulation. And of course a Robe of Powerlessness.

Declaring that the DM adds a new rule to the game has all kinds of zany consequences.

[dascarletm]

Why bother with weapon attacks at all? Just get a Cloak of Poisonousness and Sleight of Hand it onto every wizard you see for save VS death. And while you're at it, slip some Gauntlets of Fumbling onto the caster so he can't handle magic components. And a Necklace of Strangulation. And of course a Robe of Powerlessness.

Declaring that the DM adds a new rule to the game has all kinds of zany consequences.

Just use a Bag of Devouring...

[daremetoidareyo]

you're gonna have to steal that necklace from the neck slot first, with the free sleight of hand attempts from master pickpocket.

[ryu]

you're gonna have to steal that necklace from the neck slot first, with the free sleight of hand attempts from master pickpocket.

Fully obscured under the robe which is drawn tight and also larger than a loaf of break. For those keeping track that means it's immune to sleight of hand.:smallamused:

[ExLibrisMortis]

Anyway, assuming you have a DM who understands how sleght of hand works, our intrepid wilderness rogue 16/scout 3 with combat panache and probably city of stormreach's Master pickpocket feat, the rogue can slip a ring of greater counterspells keyed to dispel celerity onto the mages finger as a free action.
He gets kicked by his trained horse
He says "oof"
Oof is the command word to trigger the antimagic torc
Mages contigency celerity kicks in, because it was keyed to being present in an antimagic field
Celerity is counterspelled by the ring
Rogue plays dead according to combat panache
Rogue attacks immediately
Hopeful that precision damage is enough to kill mage.
Iteratives + luhix forces a dc 25 fort save vs. death for every strike after the first.
...

That is amazingly convoluted. How many checks do you have to get in a row, to even execute the basic plan? And how many actions? I get something like this...

You and your horse ready an action: "When the wizard walks by within 10' (after you planted the ring, but before they discover it), I activate the torc (a standard action), and the horse kicks me".

Initiative is rolled, you hope to get a surprise round. After you've taken your readied action, you drop with Combat Panache, making a Bluff check, as an immediate action. It depends on your interpretation of foresight whether you get one. Most likely, the wizard gets a (non-specific) warning about the torc, and your stand-up-and-full-attack, since those things are impending dangers - this happens before your readied actions, as proper advance warnings/immediate actions do.

In response to 'impending danger', the wizard casts celerity, which is counterspelled by the ring, and the wizard performs the free action that triggers contingency. The contingent celerity goes off (it can't be counterspelled, even if you plant multiple rings, since it was already cast with contingency), and the wizard gets a standard action, casting time stop. There is no surprise round, as the wizard is aware of danger. The wizard spends a round dazed, then gets 1d4 further rounds of actions. Then the antimagic field comes on - after the immediate action that was a response to its imminent activation. Your horse now kicks you, and as an immediate action, you drop, making your bluff check.

If the wizard didn't identify the source of the warning (impending AMF), then there's a decent chance they buffed up to defeat you, and are now combat-ready near you. However, the wizard will almost certainly have taken 5-foot steps and/or moves away from you, while inside the time stop, so their buffs are still up. Have fun fighting an angry wizard.

This is, of course, assuming you can ready an action out of combat. I believe there recently was a thread on that, and that it was brought up that readying an action is a special initiative action, therefore you can't do it before initiative is rolled. I don't think it's going too far to assume you can set up an ambush, but initiative must be rolled first.

Note: I'm fully on board with planting a slotless ioun stone equivalent of the ring of dispelling, but it still won't stop a contingency, as that spell only "comes into effect" on the trigger - it was cast before then.

[ryu]

...

That is amazingly convoluted. How many checks do you have to get in a row, to even execute the basic plan? And how many actions? I get something like this...

You and your horse ready an action: "When the wizard walks by within 10' (after you planted the ring, but before they discover it), I activate the torc (a standard action), and the horse kicks me".

Initiative is rolled, you hope to get a surprise round. After you've taken your readied action, you drop with Combat Panache, making a Bluff check, as an immediate action. It depends on your interpretation of foresight whether you get one. Most likely, the wizard gets a (non-specific) warning about the torc, and your stand-up-and-full-attack, since those things are impending dangers - this happens before your readied actions, as proper advance warnings/immediate actions do.

In response to 'impending danger', the wizard casts celerity, which is counterspelled by the ring, and the wizard performs the free action that triggers contingency. The contingent celerity goes off (it can't be counterspelled, even if you plant multiple rings, since it was already cast with contingency), and the wizard gets a standard action, casting time stop. There is no surprise round, as the wizard is aware of danger. The wizard spends a round dazed, then gets 1d4 further rounds of actions. Then the antimagic field comes on - after the immediate action that was a response to its imminent activation. Your horse now kicks you, and as an immediate action, you drop, making your bluff check.

If the wizard didn't identify the source of the warning (impending AMF), then there's a decent chance they buffed up to defeat you, and are now combat-ready near you. However, the wizard will almost certainly have taken 5-foot steps and/or moves away from you, while inside the time stop, so their buffs are still up. Have fun fighting an angry wizard.

This is, of course, assuming you can ready an action out of combat. I believe there recently was a thread on that, and that it was brought up that readying an action is a special initiative action, therefore you can't do it before initiative is rolled. I don't think it's going too far to assume you can set up an ambush, but initiative must be rolled first.

Note: I'm fully on board with planting a slotless ioun stone equivalent of the ring of dispelling, but it still won't stop a contingency, as that spell only "comes into effect" on the trigger - it was cast before then.

Giving them hints to advance the game eh? A different strategy from mine, but I still respect the cheekiness of it.

[Rubik]

How to destroy a level 19 wizard without magic? I have an easy way to answer this question: Lucid Dreaming.

[ryu]

How to destroy a level 19 wizard without magic? I have an easy way to answer this question: Lucid Dreaming.

Interesting idea. For funzies though specify a game plan. It has been a while since I've had to deal with this skill. Lets see if I remember my answer and if so how far out of ordinary optimization it is.

[Curmudgeon]

Fully obscured under the robe which is drawn tight and also larger than a loaf of break.
Not according to the RAW for magic item layering.

Magic Items On The Body

Many magic items need to be donned by a character who wants to employ them or benefit from their abilities. It’s possible for a creature with a humanoid-shaped body to wear as many as twelve magic items at the same time. However, each of those items must be worn on (or over) a particular part of the body.

A humanoid-shaped body can be decked out in magic gear consisting of one item from each of the following groups, keyed to which place on the body the item is worn.

One headband, hat, helmet, or phylactery on the head
One pair of eye lenses or goggles on or over the eyes
One amulet, brooch, medallion, necklace, periapt, or scarab around the neck
One vest, vestment, or shirt on the torso
One robe or suit of armor on the body (over a vest, vestment, or shirt)
One belt around the waist (over a robe or suit of armor)
One cloak, cape, or mantle around the shoulders (over a robe or suit of armor)
One pair of bracers or bracelets on the arms or wrists
One glove, pair of gloves, or pair of gauntlets on the hands
One ring on each hand (or two rings on one hand)
One pair of boots or shoes on the feet
Also see BODY SLOTS in Magic Item Compendium on page 218. A Robe (Body slot) will cover a Torso slot item, but not a Throat slot item.

[ryu]

Not according to the RAW for magic item layering.
Also see BODY SLOTS in Magic Item Compendium on page 218. A Robe (Body slot) will cover a Torso slot item, but not a Throat slot item.

All you're doing is proliferating the layers of non-magical clothing necessary. You realize that right? airtight full suit covering layers of cloth can be fabricated if we must go that far. I don't need to breath thanks to the necklace item. I don't have to go that far though. Line of effect blocking can still have holes plenty big enough to breath through anywhere I feel like putting them.

[daremetoidareyo]

How to destroy a level 19 wizard without magic? I have an easy way to answer this question: Lucid Dreaming.

I made a build that would be better served by being on a human than a bear. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19662108&postcount=63) (I was making a The New Mutants reference for this build).

Its basically

Planar fighter 2/ranger 1/jaunter 4/ Planar monk

skill knowledge, dodge, mobility, spring attack, dreamtelling, track, astral tracker

Jaunter for planeshift, skill knowledge. monk for grapple, as you grapple, you drag into dream heart.

[daremetoidareyo]

All you're doing is proliferating the layers of non-magical clothing necessary. You realize that right? airtight full suit covering layers of cloth can be fabricated if we must go that far. I don't need to breath thanks to the necklace item. I don't have to go that far though. Line of effect blocking can still have holes plenty big enough to breath through anywhere I feel like putting them.

Japanese Tentacle monster are 100% effective against clothes. Got to work that into the build somewhere.

[ryu]

Japanese Tentacle monster are 100% effective against clothes. Got to work that into the build somewhere.

Find an analogue in D&D, specify method of obtaining for your service, and share relevant stat block fully obtainable by knowledge checks. I'll show you how to kill it several different ways before it can get in range. I don't even need a pretense to be first to strike if I see it first. I think we can all agree kill on sight is reasonable policy for anything that can be accurately described like that.

[daremetoidareyo]

Find an analogue in D&D, specify method of obtaining for your service, and share relevant stat block fully obtainable by knowledge checks. I'll show you how to kill it several different ways before it can get in range. I don't even need a pretense to be first to strike if I see it first. I think we can all agree kill on sight is reasonable policy for anything that can be accurately described like that.

I'm fully convinced that wizard 19 with teleport cannot be killed by any suggestion made on this thread. Japanese tentacle monster joke should have been followed by a demarkation of sarcasm/playfulness, but it is plain to see that this entire situation is more of a Nuh-uh vs. Yes-Huh contest.

I'm switching over. I'll join the Nuh-uhs. Wizard 19 with teleport is absolutely unkillable by anything. He can't be tricked. Skills don't follow their rules around him. He's an asexual orphan with no need for company, which is fine, because he wears all of his clothes over top all of himself all of the time, if he's not busy being an astrally projected dire tortoise, on those rare occasions he may want to do anything other than not die. Mind blank may debatably defeat the nonmagical suggestion offered by epic bluff use. Although you need to read into the meaning of the word effect similar to iron-heart surge, but I think most DMs allow generous iron heart surging.

[Darkweave31]

Much like sexuality and gender, optimization exists on a spectrum.

If it's some blasty mage that is actively avoiding the wizard's potential then soak their blasts and stab them in the lungs.

If played with competence, then expect an entire campaign's worth of macguffins and maneuvers to lure them into the perfect trap.

If played by RAW, perhaps your adventurer should consider a different career path... Flower arrangement is nice.

[Rubik]

If you really want safe sex, just PAO a rock into whatever it is that floats your boat, followed by a Charm Person/Monster.

[PERFECTBUILD]

Be a 20th-level Wizard. Counterspell until your opponent runs out of spells. You now have at least one spell remaining, not to mention a higher BAB and possibly high HP.
you are a non caster!!

[PERFECTBUILD]

Not if you cover his mouth
how you want to cover his mouth as he is always watching ??

[Lvl 2 Expert]

I like the strategies suggested. I however would max out my charisma based skills and start spreading rumors. I'd start as far away from the wizard as I could, to infect the largest possible number of people before the wizard itself catches wind of the stories. Now, by the time I'm done that 19th level wizard has probably gone well into the epic levels (or retired), but even then it can stop only so many armies, dragons, other wizards and adventurers who found wish granting genies before they make a mistake and run out of luck.

Sure, it kills a sizable chunk of the world population, but I got the wizard.

[ryu]

I'm fully convinced that wizard 19 with teleport cannot be killed by any suggestion made on this thread. Japanese tentacle monster joke should have been followed by a demarkation of sarcasm/playfulness, but it is plain to see that this entire situation is more of a Nuh-uh vs. Yes-Huh contest.

I'm switching over. I'll join the Nuh-uhs. Wizard 19 with teleport is absolutely unkillable by anything. He can't be tricked. Skills don't follow their rules around him. He's an asexual orphan with no need for company, which is fine, because he wears all of his clothes over top all of himself all of the time, if he's not busy being an astrally projected dire tortoise, on those rare occasions he may want to do anything other than not die. Mind blank may debatably defeat the nonmagical suggestion offered by epic bluff use. Although you need to read into the meaning of the word effect similar to iron-heart surge, but I think most DMs allow generous iron heart surging.

And we stopped early. I didn't even get into ice assassins, crafted contingent spells, ambrosia farming, vecna blooded, repeatedly cycling vecna blooded on and off on a daily basis, or using mind-rape contingencies to control my state of mind at all relevant points. Why's that last one important? So that not even ice assassins made of me know the full extent of what I can do.

[dascarletm]

So far we only know the wizard has teleport. So, assuming this wizard prepares only teleport, just dimensional lock him, and you're good.


Problem solved, do I win?

[Curmudgeon]

So far we only know the wizard has teleport. So, assuming this wizard prepares only teleport, just dimensional lock him, and you're good.

Problem solved, do I win?
The Weirdstone already solves that problem, anywhere within 6 miles. It even works if it's within 6 miles of the coterminous location on the Ethereal or Astral Planes.

[daremetoidareyo]

So far we only know the wizard has teleport. So, assuming this wizard prepares only teleport, just dimensional lock him, and you're good.


Problem solved, do I win?

You simply cannot win.

This is a wizard.

As you can plainly see anything that you think of can be counteracted, and will be counteracted, because he's lawful and he does the same 90 minute routine everyday to keep from dying. And he always prepares his spell in a rope trick inside a magnificent mansion on a personal demiplane. Let's not forget all the TO that has been so kindly itemized.

Although, can one use a sequence of wishes to transport the wizards spellbook to you? Cuz we're gonna need to lock out that possibility.

[Flickerdart]

As you can plainly see anything that you think of can be counteracted, and will be counteracted, because he's lawful and he does the same 90 minute routine everyday to keep from dying.
"Pray to Pelor that the wizard didn't buff himself this morning" is not the brightest battle plan.

[daremetoidareyo]

"Pray to Pelor that the wizard didn't buff himself this morning" is not the brightest battle plan.

I'm on your side now, buddy. Forum wizards are impossible to kill hypothetically.

[ExLibrisMortis]

So far we only know the wizard has teleport. So, assuming this wizard prepares only teleport, just dimensional lock him, and you're good.

Problem solved, do I win?
Well, a wizard with only teleport prepared will still have their spontaneous options and magic items. For instance, a spontaneous shapechange, followed by a series of forms with (Su) buff spells, grants a lot of defence for one spell, and you could stay in a form with native SLAs or casting.

On the topic of standard wizards, I was thinking of something like this, for a cheese level below 'fully spontaneous wizard with infinite feats' but beyond 'straight wizard with teleport' (and some flexibility in where you end up, exactly), originally intended as mailman, with lots of metamagic reduction and a couple of spontaneous spells.

Silverbrow human cloistered cleric 1/domain wizard 5/incantatrix 3/halruaan elder 1/dweomerkeeper 10.

All of these builds use a cloistered cleric dip to get Knowledge Devotion (ranged touch attacks), the requirements for Dweomerkeeper, and Extend Spell for persistomancy. Dweomerkeeper provides limited spontaneous casting, Supernatural Spell for key buffs and expensive spells (and free +5 to all stats, eventually), and metamagic reduction at the end, if required. Incantatrix is for persisting, Halruaan Elder for metamagic reduction, a few spontaneous spells and circle magic, archmage is for the various high arcana options, master specialist is for the requirements for archmage (or a second level will pick up an off-list spell from your specialist school). Silverbrow human is mostly in case you pick up some sorcerer-only spells (wings of cover and whatnot), it's a reference to the original mailman more than anything, I suppose. Regular human with gheden and troll-blooded is all the rage these days, and a good old necropolitan grey elf is always nice.

Silverbrow human cloistered cleric 1/conjurer 3/master specialist 1/dweomerkeeper 1/incantatrix 3/halruaan elder 1/archmage 1/dweomerkeeper +9

(feats in order: spell focus (conjuration), halruaan adept, extend spell, scribe scroll, spell thematics, skill focus (spellcraft), iron will (otyugh hole), spell focus (transmutation), persist spell, feats at 12, 15, 18 and flaws (you can take twin spell, practical metamagic: twin, maximize spell, practical metamagic: maximize, empower spell for a blasty wizard). Your spontaneous dweomerkeeper spells are: any third (to meet the practical metamagic prerequisite), celerity, time stop, and three others, which can be a 7th, 8th and 9th. I'd say that ideally, you want greater arcane fusion on there, but that's tricky to get.

This build essentially has all the prestige classes at once, except mindbender, which is always a good one (if you're not using shapechange to pick up telepathy). I don't actually mean to suggest you should take all of these, I'm just demonstrating that you can. You're giving up three schools between incantatrix and specialization, which is starting to hurt a bit, but you get Abrupt Jaunt for your familiar, and perhaps Spontaneous Summoning for your specialist spell slots, in case blasting doesn't work (not sure how strong this is). You still have planar binding and whatnot to pick up minions, unlike your sorcerer, though if you really want to go mailman, I'd drop the archmage and master specialist for another three (metamagic) feats (one bonus from incantatrix 4, and two spell focus you don't have to take), and another spontaneous spell through halruaan elder.

For a more general build, not relying so much on metamagic (but still having some reducers):

grey elf cloistered cleric 1/elf generalist domain wizard 4-5/dweomerkeeper 4-5/incantatrix 3-4/halruaan elder 5/archmage 1-3.

Taking the extra wizard level can get you spontaneous divination, the extra dweomerkeeper level adds another spontaneous spell, the incantatrix level adds one metamagic feat, and the archmage levels provide high arcana. Halruaan Elder provides circle magic, two spontaneous spells, and two metamagic feats are reduced in cost by 1.
To sum up, a 'standard god wizard' should have several of the following: Incantatrix 3 persisting, Dweomerkeeper 4 supernatural spell, Halruaan Elder/Red Wizard/Hathran 5 circle magic, and one I didn't put in the above, Shadowcraft Mage 5 powerful shadow magic. Wizard 5 spontaneous divination, Conjurer 1 abrupt jaunt/spontaneous summoning, and Wizard 1 elf generalist/domain wizard can all help make the wizard a good bit more versatile, as can Archmage 1-5 high arcana and Mindbender 1 telepathy.

Thoughts?

[dascarletm]

Well, a wizard with only teleport prepared will still have their spontaneous options and magic items. For instance, a spontaneous shapechange, followed by a series of forms with (Su) buff spells, grants a lot of defence for one spell, and you could stay in a form with native SLAs or casting.
-Snip-
Thoughts?

I mean, the OP doesn't mention the wizard has any of these. So going off the OPs information we can only assume it is an elf wizard 19 (no prestige classes mentioned) with teleport. All else is blank. :smallwink:

[ben-zayb]

I mean, the OP doesn't mention the wizard has any of these. So going off the OPs information we can only assume it is an elf wizard 19 (no prestige classes mentioned) with teleport. All else is blank. :smallwink:
Nah, if we're to go the path of pedantry, "wat is the best way to destroy a level 19 wizard with spells as teleport if you are a non caster" doesn't even sound as the question, what with the lack of a question mark and "wat" not being an actual word. Maybe he is making a statement about someone named "Wat" being the best mage-killer.

On the other hand, the thread title is an actual question: "how to destroy a level 19 wizard?" So maybe we get back to answering that question?

[ryu]

Nah, if we're to go the path of pedantry, "wat is the best way to destroy a level 19 wizard with spells as teleport if you are a non caster" doesn't even sound as the question, what with the lack of a question mark and "wat" not being an actual word. Maybe he is making a statement about someone named "Wat" being the best mage-killer.

On the other hand, the thread title is an actual question: "how to destroy a level 19 wizard?" So maybe we get back to answering that question?

It was later learned that this thread was meant for 5e and has an actual thread there now I think. At any rate I wouldn't count the wishes of the OP being very relevant at this point. That would be because I doubt they're even still watching this one.

[daremetoidareyo]

Distressing news brothers, I just learned about an armor enchantment called spellcatching, Greater, from the Forge of War supplement. What do we do about our contingency celerity being absorbed?

[ryu]

Distressing news brothers, I just learned about an armor enchantment called spellcatching, Greater, from the Forge of War supplement. What do we do about our contingency celerity being absorbed?

Okay for one that's a weapon specific enchantment. For two the spell has to be aimed at you for there to be even a chance of catching it. Even if that condition is met you still have to make your save against it. This means it only even works on spells that offer saves by the way. It also only works to a maximum of three times per day. The wizard casting celerity counters by identifying the magic in your weapon, grinning smugly, and saying lol-no.

[daremetoidareyo]

Okay for one that's a weapon specific enchantment. For two the spell has to be aimed at you for there to be even a chance of catching it. Even if that condition is met you still have to make your save against it. This means it only even works on spells that offer saves by the way. It also only works to a maximum of three times per day. The wizard casting celerity counters by identifying the magic in your weapon, grinning smugly, and saying lol-no.

When does he detect that? And isn't there a relatively simple way of blocking any ability to discern your magical status? We are paranoid, afterall. Also, It's a shield enchantment only. But you are correct about the aiming provision. The spell needs to target an individual.

Good vigilance.

[ryu]

When does he detect that? And isn't there a relatively simple way of blocking any ability to discern your magical status? We are paranoid, afterall. Also, It's a shield enchantment only. But you are correct about the aiming provision. The spell needs to target an individual.

Good vigilance.

Actually I literally just read it. It specifies weapons. Even elaborates and states that weapon acts similar to a spell storing blade.

[daremetoidareyo]

Actually I literally just read it. It specifies weapons. Even elaborates and states that weapon acts similar to a spell storing blade.

Me too. In forge of war p. 118, under "Armor and Shield Properties"
"Spell-Catching
Price: +2 bonus
Property: Light shield, heavy shield, or tower shield Caster Level: 9th
Aura: Moderate; (DC 19) abjuration
Activation: Immediate (command)
Weight: —"

"Spell-Catching, Greater

...As spell-catching, except the shield can absorb a spell of up to 6th level."

Perhaps you have a newer source?

[ryu]

Me too. In forge of war p. 118, under "Armor and Shield Properties"
"Spell-Catching
Price: +2 bonus
Property: Light shield, heavy shield, or tower shield Caster Level: 9th
Aura: Moderate; (DC 19) abjuration
Activation: Immediate (command)
Weight: —"

"Spell-Catching, Greater

...As spell-catching, except the shield can absorb a spell of up to 6th level."

Perhaps you have a newer source?

When was magical arms and armor released? I've never had need of it for.... reasons.

[Templarkommando]

1.) Don't ever fight fair. Wizards aren't going to do it, there's no reason for you to do it.
2.) Waiting to the end of a day of strenuous spell casting is helpful, but not foolproof.
3.) Sleeping wizards are easier to kill than awake wizards.
4.) If you can get the jump on him in one round with absurdly high damage - so like... drop a boat on him. Not a dinghy either... one of those big ones.
5.) If we're talking about a wizard that specifically uses spells that require saving throws, there are some ways to mitigate... a little. Take classes that allow you to apply more than 1 stat as a bonus to those saves. Wear magic items that increase saves or offer resistance to different types of damage. Take feats that raise your saves.
6.) Try to have magic items or at least a mundane on hand that can counter specific situations - for example, you can counter a fly spell with your own fly spell, or at the very least make sure you have a ranged weapon to counter fly. This is gonna be hit-or-miss. You can probably counter fly, but certain abjurations are going to be a lot trickier. Also, dispell magic against your mundane character while flying would really suck.
7.) If you can sneak a unit of around 500 archers into within 2 or 3 range increments of him, you're bound to kill him statistically - just so long as he doesn't already have his protections up.
8.) Cause a global famine/drought of epic proportions. Pray that he's not smart enough to cast spells which allow him to create food and water. Use this as a last resort, as it's sort of a round-a-bout way of killing him.
9.) Orchestrate some way of tying him up. To my knowledge protection, from mundane weapons and a lot of other protection don't protect you from being tied up - he would have to anticipate your action with a freedom of movement spell (which may or may not be likely depending on the subject) Tie him up in one round and then kill him through normal means. Tying him up stops all somatic components, so you just kill him without spells.
10.) While he's out on an adventure or some other errand, sneak up to his base of operations. Find the room that he typically teleports back to and fill said room with dirt. If unsure of where he will teleport back to, fill his entire base with dirt/rocks/wood/debris - not water. When he teleports back, he will die from the same rule that makes you die if you teleport into a wall. The effectiveness of this is going to rely on how the DM interprets some of the rules about teleport though, so again may or may not work.

[ryu]

1.) Don't ever fight fair. Wizards aren't going to do it, there's no reason for you to do it.
2.) Waiting to the end of a day of strenuous spell casting is helpful, but not foolproof.
3.) Sleeping wizards are easier to kill than awake wizards.
4.) If you can get the jump on him in one round with absurdly high damage - so like... drop a boat on him. Not a dinghy either... one of those big ones.
5.) If we're talking about a wizard that specifically uses spells that require saving throws, there are some ways to mitigate... a little. Take classes that allow you to apply more than 1 stat as a bonus to those saves. Wear magic items that increase saves or offer resistance to different types of damage. Take feats that raise your saves.
6.) Try to have magic items or at least a mundane on hand that can counter specific situations - for example, you can counter a fly spell with your own fly spell, or at the very least make sure you have a ranged weapon to counter fly. This is gonna be hit-or-miss. You can probably counter fly, but certain abjurations are going to be a lot trickier. Also, dispell magic against your mundane character while flying would really suck.
7.) If you can sneak a unit of around 500 archers into within 2 or 3 range increments of him, you're bound to kill him statistically - just so long as he doesn't already have his protections up.
8.) Cause a global famine/drought of epic proportions. Pray that he's not smart enough to cast spells which allow him to create food and water. Use this as a last resort, as it's sort of a round-a-bout way of killing him.
9.) Orchestrate some way of tying him up. To my knowledge protection, from mundane weapons and a lot of other protection don't protect you from being tied up - he would have to anticipate your action with a freedom of movement spell (which may or may not be likely depending on the subject) Tie him up in one round and then kill him through normal means. Tying him up stops all somatic components, so you just kill him without spells.
10.) While he's out on an adventure or some other errand, sneak up to his base of operations. Find the room that he typically teleports back to and fill said room with dirt. If unsure of where he will teleport back to, fill his entire base with dirt/rocks/wood/debris - not water. When he teleports back, he will die from the same rule that makes you die if you teleport into a wall. The effectiveness of this is going to rely on how the DM interprets some of the rules about teleport though, so again may or may not work.

I like your spirit and your gumption. You could very well have a shot at killing an ill-built mage with some reliability, or a non-zero chance at a somewhat competent one. None of that works on what we've detailed here, but it's a better effort than most would make new to the game.

[Templarkommando]

I like your spirit and your gumption. You could very well have a shot at killing an ill-built mage with some reliability, or a non-zero chance at a somewhat competent one. None of that works on what we've detailed here, but it's a better effort than most would make new to the game.


I think that to a large degree you're correct. A lot of these rules of thumb rely on bad rolls, and grasping at straws - which isn't a way to fight if you're going to. Master Tzu says "For to win one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not supreme excellence. To subdue the enemy without fighting is supreme excellence." A successful diplomacy check with honest intentions of being friendly or at least non-aggressive would qualify as supreme excellence in this example.

You could also *technically* destroy him metaphorically. If he's a good wizard, ruin his reputation.

You could stand up, seize the wizards character sheet, shove the character sheet into your mouth, and begin chewing. Upon succeeding, shout "You weren't prepared for that were you? You paranoid wizard, you!" This approach isn't likely to get you invited back any time soon, though, so not recommended.

[ryu]

I think that to a large degree you're correct. A lot of these rules of thumb rely on bad rolls, and grasping at straws - which isn't a way to fight if you're going to. Master Tzu says "For to win one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not supreme excellence. To subdue the enemy without fighting is supreme excellence." A successful diplomacy check with honest intentions of being friendly or at least non-aggressive would qualify as supreme excellence in this example.

You could also *technically* destroy him metaphorically. If he's a good wizard, ruin his reputation.

You could stand up, seize the wizards character sheet, shove the character sheet into your mouth, and begin chewing. Upon succeeding, shout "You weren't prepared for that were you? You paranoid wizard, you!" This approach isn't likely to get you invited back any time soon, though, so not recommended.

And this is why I bring backup copies. One guy actually tried that once. I pulled out my spare sheet and retaliated by setting his on fire. To quote mad eye moody AKA the only mainstream wizard who thinks somewhat like I do despite having worse tools: ''Constant Vigilance!''

[Templarkommando]

And this is why I bring backup copies. One guy actually tried that once. I pulled out my spare sheet and retaliated by setting his on fire. To quote mad eye moody AKA the only mainstream wizard who thinks somewhat like I do despite having worse tools: ''Constant Vigilance!''

The requirement of the thread was that I destroy "a" 19th level wizard. You have simply presented an identical copy of the same wizard, which the DM will likely allow you to use in campaign as though it were the same wizard. It is not however the exact same wizard and I have technically destroyed "a" 19th level wizard.

[ben-zayb]

The requirement of the thread was that I destroy "a" 19th level wizard. You have simply presented an identical copy of the same wizard, which the DM will likely allow you to use in campaign as though it were the same wizard. It is not however the exact same wizard and I have technically destroyed "a" 19th level wizard.

But you didn't, you just destroyed the sheet. That's like saying killing an Aspect of the Gods qualifies as killing the Gods themselves.

[Templarkommando]

But you didn't, you just destroyed the sheet. That's like saying killing an Aspect of the Gods qualifies as killing the Gods themselves.

It would be more like opening the campaign setting book, finding the deity description and all pages that reference said deity and eating them. You might could produce another copy of the book, but during the time that it takes for you to produce that copy, the god is destroyed.

Also, 100% foolproof method of destroying a 19th level wizard.

Step 1: Obtain corpse of non-un-dead 19th level wizard.
Step 2: Destroy corpse.
Step 3: ??????
Step 4: Profit

[Platymus Pus]

But you didn't, you just destroyed the sheet. That's like saying killing an Aspect of the Gods qualifies as killing the Gods themselves.

Some would argue it certainly does. If you destroy an idea you can destroy a god.

It would be more like opening the campaign setting book, finding the deity description and all pages that reference said deity and eating them. You might could produce another copy of the book, but during the time that it takes for you to produce that copy, the god is destroyed.



Even better just add the number 9 to a level 1 wizard sheet and rip it in half.:smallredface:

[ryu]

The requirement of the thread was that I destroy "a" 19th level wizard. You have simply presented an identical copy of the same wizard, which the DM will likely allow you to use in campaign as though it were the same wizard. It is not however the exact same wizard and I have technically destroyed "a" 19th level wizard.

Now see that would be true if the DM hadn't explicitly cleared backups earlier, held them as equating to the same character, and even demanding extra prints for himself to keep track of things. Nobody wants the game to stop because of lost sheets, destroyed sheets, or sheets ruined by food or beverage stains. That last one was especially harsh because I had to literally copy the entire notebook containing the list of minions and crafted contingent spells. That took longer than I would've liked, but it does a pretty good example of singling out who the copies of the sheet refer to.

Man that guy was, is, and always will be awesome. Excellent DM and host. Literally made fresh mission-style burritos for food breaks, and with no filler ingredients to boot. I have nothing but respect for him.

[daremetoidareyo]

Is this dm the same one who won't let you use sleight of hand for its intended purpose? I thought he was overly pedantic and stifling of creativity.

[ryu]

Is this dm the same one who won't let you use sleight of hand for its intended purpose? I thought he was overly pedantic and stifling of creativity.

First off he never had to rule on that issue. We found a solution to the problem fairly quickly and it became fairly standard adventurer practice after that.

Second oh hells no. This guy was behind the fabled interplaner pimp war, three different kinds of unique druid sects each with a different view of nature rising against society as a whole with different methods and goals, over twenty different competing magical schools seeking to claim young arcane magic users to change the world through the minds of the young, and two to three noticeably different chuch factions PER GOD IN THE SETTING! We haven't even touched psionics or initiators in this explanation and the world is already more complex than most settings. Now that all sounds impressive but you know what else? He has literally mapped out all of their goals and planned actions to the point where we could decide to suddenly support whoever we wanted and he'd have responses prepared.

Do you have any idea how hard that guy works to maintain as much player freedom as possible and challenge a group of five or six people a week during a campaign all of whom are my kind of crazy? It's not easy man. It's not easy.

[Templarkommando]

Now see that would be true if the DM hadn't explicitly cleared backups earlier, held them as equating to the same character, and even demanding extra prints for himself to keep track of things. Nobody wants the game to stop because of lost sheets, destroyed sheets, or sheets ruined by food or beverage stains. That last one was especially harsh because I had to literally copy the entire notebook containing the list of minions and crafted contingent spells. That took longer than I would've liked, but it does a pretty good example of singling out who the copies of the sheet refer to.

Man that guy was, is, and always will be awesome. Excellent DM and host. Literally made fresh mission-style burritos for food breaks, and with no filler ingredients to boot. I have nothing but respect for him.

Man, burritos sound much tastier than character sheets.

[ryu]

Man, burritos sound much tastier than character sheets.

And by homemade I don't just mean he assembled the ingredients himself. I mean each individual ingredient was a miniature recipe in itself. Beans? Add a small amount of onion and a about a quarter strip of bacon for flavor and let simmer in a slow cooker until deliciously warm. Meat? Mid quality beef cooked slow and seasoned with six different spices in proportions he refuses to reveal to this day. Salsa? Fresh ingredients prepared thin rather than chunky and spiced mild rather than masochistic. Guacamole prepared by hand with decently fresh but soft avocados. The only things he didn't make himself were the cheese blend, tortillas, and sour cream. This is how cook properly. Fresh ingredients and as much attention to detail as possible.

It actually gets better when the special occasion is rarer than weekly. Then side dishes and dessert are added.

[Rubik]

And by homemade I don't just mean he assembled the ingredients himself. I mean each individual ingredient was a miniature recipe in itself. Beans? Add a small amount of onion and a about a quarter strip of bacon for flavor and let simmer in a slow cooker until deliciously warm. Meat? Mid quality beef cooked slow and seasoned with six different spices in proportions he refuses to reveal to this day. Salsa? Fresh ingredients prepared thin rather than chunky and spiced mild rather than masochistic. Guacamole prepared by hand with decently fresh but soft avocados. The only things he didn't make himself were the cheese blend, tortillas, and sour cream. This is how cook properly. Fresh ingredients and as much attention to detail as possible.

It actually gets better when the special occasion is rarer than weekly. Then side dishes and dessert are added.Damn you, Ryu. Now I'm hungry.

[ryu]

Damn you, Ryu. Now I'm hungry.

Side dish of baked potatoes to make use of the sour cream, cheese, and bacon on hand.

Dessert of fresh sopapilla made from modest but convenient store-bought dough, cream cheese, honey, suger, butter, and just a touch of cinnamon. Best eaten fresh, and while non-traditional it's heavenly with a side of vanilla ice-cream. Also I optimized speechcraft specifically so I could do two things. Impress people with vocabulary, and render them ravenous without even being in the same room. The skillbook for the latter is the omnomnomicon by the way.