[Help] Effective Fighting & Full Attacks with a Crossbow?

[Tibbaerrohwen]

I'm currently working on a bard. The biggest issue I've run int is what to do when I'm not buffing in combat. With my low strength, I can't enter melee (and there's no reason too; we have three melee combatants).

My plan, as is, is to use a crossbow. My problem is what to do when I get multiple attacks per round. With the move actions/full round actions needed to reload a crossbow, I'm stuck never achieving a full attack.

I looked at the rapid reload feats but I'm already feat starved.

What other options are there for fighting effectively with a crossbow without expending feats?

EDIT: are there any different and/or useful types of crossbow bolts?

[sleepyphoenixx]

The Quick Loading enhancement (MIC) lets you full attack with a light crossbow without spending a feat on Rapid Reload.

[Darrin]

In the interests of pedantry, is there anything a crossbow can do that can't be done by a shortbow? Nevermind, I reread the OP and noticed the comment about low strength.

What do your feats currently look like? What sourcebooks are available?

There's a spell in Races of the Dragon, ghostly reload, but for some reason it's only Sor/Wis... How's your UMD?

Oh, duh... your unseen servant gets two move actions per turn, have him reload your crossbow.

[mabriss lethe]

This is the sort of character I recommend for mild sandblaster optimization. (by that I mean buy one and some nifty ammo)

the sandblaster is a weapon that shows up in one of the monster manuals (whichever one has the sand giant.) It's a fairly obscure exotic ranged weapon that deals damage in a 10' cone and adds a debuff on a failed reflex save. Since it doesn't use attack rolls, not having EWP for it doesn't matter in the slightest. At low levels of optimization, don't even worry about reloading. keep one or two pre-loaded and discard them after use. You can even snag some enchanted ammo or poison for special effects or low-cost bonus damage.

If you do decide to pick up rapid reload, so much the better. you can apply the aptitude special ability to the sandblaster and treat it as a light crossbow for the purposes of rapid reload. Nearly any feat you use to optimize a crossbow fighter will carry over to someone using an aptitude sandblaster. Once you go that route, it's better to go whole hog and enchant the sandblaster as your primary weapon, which is very resource intensive.

[Khedrac]

To be honest, if you are feat-starved and looking to back up three melee types, then trying anything with a conventional ranged weapon is usually a mistake...
Pretty much all of the time you will be firing into melee - and that is a -4 to hit penalty without precise shot. (OK, first round of combat you won't be, but that's when you put up your song boost.)
And then probably most of the time you will have a melee ally directly between you and the target - another -4 to hit from cover.

Result, -8 on your attack rolls unless you take the archer specialist feat chain of point blank shot, precise shot and improved precise shot.

What I would do is look for other useful thinks you can do, for example:
1) a longspear is a reach simple weapon so you can stand behind medium melee allies and make attacks / aid attacks.
2) throw tanglefoot bags or nets.
3) cast other spells

[Curmudgeon]

Oh, duh... your unseen servant gets two move actions per turn, have him reload your crossbow.
That's subject to DM whim. As far as I know, only mounts share initiative with their riders. I, personally, would not allow an Unseen Servant's actions to be interleaved with the PC's actions. They can act before or after the PC, just like nearly everything else in the game.

Go with sleepyphoenixx's suggestion: the Quick Loading enhancement (Magic Item Compendium, pages 41-42).

[Tibbaerrohwen]

The Quick Loading enhancement (MIC) lets you full attack with a light crossbow without spending a feat on Rapid Reload.
This is what I'm looking at right now. I'll need to save up for it.


In the interests of pedantry, is there anything a crossbow can do that can't be done by a shortbow? Nevermind, I reread the OP and noticed the comment about low strength.

What do your feats currently look like? What sourcebooks are available?

There's a spell in Races of the Dragon, ghostly reload, but for some reason it's only Sor/Wis... How's your UMD?

Oh, duh... your unseen servant gets two move actions per turn, have him reload your crossbow.

I'm not sure my DM would permit Unseen Servant to fill that role. My feats right now are being spent on bardic music feats and some metamagic.


This is the sort of character I recommend for mild sandblaster optimization. (by that I mean buy one and some nifty ammo)

the sandblaster is a weapon that shows up in one of the monster manuals (whichever one has the sand giant.) It's a fairly obscure exotic ranged weapon that deals damage in a 10' cone and adds a debuff on a failed reflex save. Since it doesn't use attack rolls, not having EWP for it doesn't matter in the slightest. At low levels of optimization, don't even worry about reloading. keep one or two pre-loaded and discard them after use. You can even snag some enchanted ammo or poison for special effects or low-cost bonus damage.

If you do decide to pick up rapid reload, so much the better. you can apply the aptitude special ability to the sandblaster and treat it as a light crossbow for the purposes of rapid reload. Nearly any feat you use to optimize a crossbow fighter will carry over to someone using an aptitude sandblaster. Once you go that route, it's better to go whole hog and enchant the sandblaster as your primary weapon, which is very resource intensive.

I'm trying to find more info on the sandblaster right now. If you get a page reference, let me know.

Two other questions for you:

1) What kind of nifty ammo did you have in mind? I haven't been able to find anything for crossbows. It's all for normal bows.

2) What about allies caught in the cone? I could end up doing more harm than good.



What I would do is look for other useful thinks you can do, for example:
1) a longspear is a reach simple weapon so you can stand behind medium melee allies and make attacks / aid attacks.
2) throw tanglefoot bags or nets.
3) cast other spells

I'm starting to lean towards this as well.

[HalfQuart]

Are you using Dragonfire Inspiration? If so, I think you could probably just use a shortbow -- the damage penalty from your low strength won't matter much with the extra damage from DFI.

Even without DFI, instead of spending the cash on Quick Loading, you'd probably be better off adding Frost or Shock (or whatever your favorite +1d6 damage type is) to your shortbow, which would average more damage unless your Strength is <=5.

[Solaris]

That's subject to DM whim. As far as I know, only mounts share initiative with their riders. I, personally, would not allow an Unseen Servant's actions to be interleaved with the PC's actions. They can act before or after the PC, just like nearly everything else in the game.

The solution to that problem seems to be getting more than one crossbow.
Besides, delaying actions and simultaneity are possible; the player can delay his action until the US's initiative count, or vice-versa, and then attack while the US reloads on the same initiative count.

The fact that it doesn't list a method for determining the US's initiative count and states "performs simple tasks at your command" suggests it might actually operate on the caster's initiative - but the fact that it doesn't say that while the summon monster spell does puts a question mark to it.

[daremetoidareyo]

Hand crossbow focus from DotU will get you the equivalent of weapon focus (hand crossbow) + rapid reload for the cost of a single feat.

[Tibbaerrohwen]

Are you using Dragonfire Inspiration? If so, I think you could probably just use a shortbow -- the damage penalty from your low strength won't matter much with the extra damage from DFI.

Even without DFI, instead of spending the cash on Quick Loading, you'd probably be better off adding Frost or Shock (or whatever your favorite +1d6 damage type is) to your shortbow, which would average more damage unless your Strength is <=5.

My DFI is the normal fire damage. I don't have the feat space for making it sonic. As such, there is a good chance we'll face an abundance of enemies who are immune or have resistance to fire.

Your point stands. I'd likely see more mileage out of just adding sonic damage or something similar to a shortbow. I really like the aesthetic of crossbows though. It irritates me that they are nearly impossible to play with, compared to longbows and shortbows.


Hand crossbow focus from DotU will get you the equivalent of weapon focus (hand crossbow) + rapid reload for the cost of a single feat.

If I"m not mistaken, I don't have proficiency with hand crossbows by default. So it would take two feats in a buld that has me already begging for more feats.

[Theomniadept]

Crossbow Sniper feat for 1/2 your DEX mod to damage. It may not be the same as full STR mod from a composite bow but overall it means you don't need a new weapon every time your strength increases and it frees up whatever level of MAD your class has.

[Tibbaerrohwen]

As per the suggestions made by mabriss, Darrin and HalfQuart I've invested in a sandblaster and switched from crossbow to shortbow. Though I prefer the look and feel of the crossbow, it's just not effective.

[DEMON]

How about using a whip and aid another action? It's not a ranged weapon per se, but the range of 0-15ft. helps a bit and with 3 melee characters you should be able to stay safe and help one of them just by "touching" the enemy.

The whip can also be used for tripping or disarming (+2 bonus), if need be. And it's finessable, so you don't suffer from the low strength (feycraft to save a feat). And the whip climber is just groovy, all you need to do is get a cool hat ;)

An alternative approach could be alchemical weapons - thrown ones are keyed off dexterity - you have a caster level and a decent amount of skill points, so you might be able to pull if off.

[Platymus Pus]

The main problem is you're doing bard with a crossbow.
So the best course of action it to build it where you stack cha or maybe even int a bunch onto your attacks and dmg to make up for it.(cha is the easiest stat to abuse)
You're going to at least need
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/precise-shot-combat---final
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/rapid-shot-combat---final
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/crossbow-mastery-combat
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/deadly-aim-combat
basically look at the ranger class's combat style options for archery (not crossbow).
Also get the splitting enchantment.
Though as a bard you'll never be all that good at it due to low BAB.
Not compared to Ranger,Barb,Fighter, who would do it better than you.
(getting two more dmg rolls from splitting, getting more dmg from deadly aim)
Best crossbow I've seen is greater crossbow until you reach epic which is where you want to retrain to two handed fighting, you'll also want a gnome's crossbow sight for better range increments.
Of course that's if you get those feats.

You're best bet however is to get sudden stunning on a +1 whip, it's a flat 3k cost.

[Solaris]

If I"m not mistaken, I don't have proficiency with hand crossbows by default. So it would take two feats in a buld that has me already begging for more feats.

A level of martial rogue (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#rogue) gets you hand crossbow proficiency and a fighter bonus feat - and conveniently, Hand Crossbow Focus is on the list of fighter bonus feats.