Need help starting over.

[Masakan]

Ok so I'm stuck on a dead end again and figured the best way to approach this would be to start over.
So i'm gonna post my requirements I want for my character and see if you guys can help me come up with Ideas.
It's more of a thought exercise that I may or may not use in the future.

Now the important thing is to know what I want.
My plans involve this character being a Lesser Celedrin(If it's impossible then switch to Silverbrow Human.)
One flaw is allowed
Your Primarily a bard and must prestige by level 9
Allowed 2 dips in any classes you want
Primary skills are Diplomacy, Bluff,Gather Information, Disguise and Perform with anything else being a secondary concern.
Main Focus would be in Enchantment and Illusion Magic, Skirmishing for Melee Combat, and intel gathering
Mechanically would feel like a Belly/Samba Dancer(I will not accept overfluffing stuff so don't even suggest it!)
Dodge and Mobility are pretty much requirements for any prestige class that would work(Dervish, Swiftblade, Heartwarder, Spelldancer etc) so you have to incorporate those.
And if you can somehow incorporate ToB and Two Weapon Fighting(With Movement) Bonus Points.

I guess that's everything, I also admit that I'm probably trying too much, so if you can condense it that would be great. If you have any questions ask me...let's see what you come up with.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Let's see...

Human with Able Learner should be a good start, since it pretty much lets us multi-class as much as we want without worrying about class skills. Build-wise... Bard 6/Warblade 1-2/Jade Phoenix Mage 10/... well, from a purely power-based perspective you should dip into Sublime Chord around 10th to start progressing that casting instead, which would leave you with I think 8th level spells, but that might strain your skills too much. You might also take the standard Cloistered Cleric dip for Knowledge and Travel Devotions (if you keep your Wisdom at 10 or below, you can avoid getting spells at all, to keep the flavor better).

Use the Warblade levels to grab things like Sudden Leap and Wolf Fang Strike, and the JPM levels to take maneuvers like Lingering Flames and Desert Tempest. Snowflake Wardance can help keep you SAD, especially if you rely on strikes for damage. Desert Wind has some nice boosts that apply to every attack, which combo nicely with TWF.

It might not be 100% ideal, but it's a mighty solid gish, with bardic magic for party-facing and Devoted Spirit strikes for face-mashing.

[Masakan]

Let's see...

Human with Able Learner should be a good start, since it pretty much lets us multi-class as much as we want without worrying about class skills. Build-wise... Bard 6/Warblade 1-2/Jade Phoenix Mage 10/... well, from a purely power-based perspective you should dip into Sublime Chord around 10th to start progressing that casting instead, which would leave you with I think 8th level spells, but that might strain your skills too much. You might also take the standard Cloistered Cleric dip for Knowledge and Travel Devotions (if you keep your Wisdom at 10 or below, you can avoid getting spells at all, to keep the flavor better).

Use the Warblade levels to grab things like Sudden Leap and Wolf Fang Strike, and the JPM levels to take maneuvers like Lingering Flames and Desert Tempest. Snowflake Wardance can help keep you SAD, especially if you rely on strikes for damage. Desert Wind has some nice boosts that apply to every attack, which combo nicely with TWF.

It might not be 100% ideal, but it's a mighty solid gish, with bardic magic for party-facing and Devoted Spirit strikes for face-mashing.

One question, do most dm's ignore that little requirement about finding another JPM to awaken you? Also I don't like Sublime chord mostly becausse it stops being a bard and becomes a bootleg sorcerer.

[Solaris]

One question, do most dm's ignore that little requirement about finding another JPM to awaken you?

I don't so much ignore it as provide an adventure or something to make it happen.
My players generally inform me of their build goals, though, so it's something I can build up to.

[torrasque666]

One question, do most dm's ignore that little requirement about finding another JPM to awaken you? Also I don't like Sublime chord mostly becausse it stops being a bard and becomes a bootleg sorcerer.
Depends. My DM doesn't, but if someone already has the class from pre-session (like if we started at level 6, the earliest most prestige classes come online absent a heft odor of gouda, and someone did other stuff x/JPM 1, we'd allow it. But if it was something like Green Star Adept that requires you to keep doing the special requirement with every level (like Starmetal Dependency), well.... you're gonna be hunting down those meteorites. Also means that we don't have to worry about Spellguard shenanigans. You can blame most of these rules on a single player who abused the **** out of their lacking.

TL;DR we don't handwave it, but if you come in at a level and fulfilled the prereqs in your backstory before you met the group we'll allow it.

[Grod_The_Giant]

One question, do most dm's ignore that little requirement about finding another JPM to awaken you? Also I don't like Sublime chord mostly becausse it stops being a bard and becomes a bootleg sorcerer.
I usually do. Dunno about anyone else.

SC is nice in a build like this because it's accelerated casting-- you can lose quite a few couple caster levels and still end up with your 6th level bard spells. No need to take more levels if you don't want them.

[Masakan]

I usually do. Dunno about anyone else.

SC is nice in a build like this because it's accelerated casting-- you can lose quite a few couple caster levels and still end up with your 6th level bard spells. No need to take more levels if you don't want them.

depending on how early you get into sublime chord...don't you lose your level 3 slots advancement?

[AvatarVecna]

depending on how early you get into sublime chord...don't you lose your level 3 slots advancement?

Nope. Gaining Sublime Chord casting doesn't make your Bard casting go away, you just have both now. If you go Bard 9/Virtuoso 1/Sublime Chord 2/Virtuoso 8, you end up with 9th level spells and virtually full Bardic Music. You can also make a Bard/Wizard/Sublime Chord/Ultimate Magus, but the cheese on that build is pretty strong.

EDIT: Ah, I see what you're saying now. Technically speaking, if you're doing a Bard 10/Sublime Chord 10...yes, you'll lose out on a couple 3rd level slots. This is one of many reasons that people don't do Bard 10/Sublime Chord 10 for an optimal build.

[Dread_Head]

Bard 4 / Swordsage 1 / Bard +2 / Swordsage +1 / Bard 1 / Swiftblade 9 / Swordsage +2.

For feats go 1. Dodge, F. Melodic Casting, 3. Two Weapon Fighting, 6. Mobility, 9. Ascetic Mage and then take whatever you want. Consider Power Attack, Snowflake Wardance, Martial Study/Stance etc. Trade Suggestion for Song of the Heart.

You get decent Bardic casting, Manoeuvres, Cha to AC and Swiftbladey goodness (with perpetual options you can deliver two strikes in a turn or move and full attack).

Edit: You can use Sudden Leap to close the distance for full attacks before you get perpetual options.

[Masakan]

Bard 4 / Swordsage 1 / Bard +2 / Swordsage +1 / Bard 1 / Swiftblade 9 / Swordsage +2.

For feats go 1. Dodge, F. Melodic Casting, 3. Two Weapon Fighting, 6. Mobility, 9. Ascetic Mage and then take whatever you want. Consider Power Attack, Snowflake Wardance, Martial Study/Stance etc. Trade Suggestion for Song of the Heart.

You get decent Bardic casting, Manoeuvres, Cha to AC and Swiftbladey goodness (with perpetual options you can deliver two strikes in a turn or move and full attack).

Edit: You can use Sudden Leap to close the distance for full attacks before you get perpetual options.

Hold on....doesn't ascetic mage only work with sorcerer? and does this mean I'm gonna have to drop slippers of battle dancing? because the more I try to work them in the more of a headache they seem to be.
Also nice you caught on I wanna be as SAD as possible.

[torrasque666]

Hold on....doesn't ascetic mage only work with sorcerer? and does this mean I'm gonna have to drop slippers of battle dancing? because the more I try to work them in the more of a headache they seem to be.
Also nice you caught on I wanna be as SAD as possible.
Ascetic Mage just stacks Monk and Sorcerer for the AC bonus (the +1,+2,etc stuff). That's the only class specific mention. Everything else works fine.

[Masakan]

Ascetic Mage just stacks Monk and Sorcerer for the AC bonus (the +1,+2,etc stuff). That's the only class specific mention. Everything else works fine.
Ohhhh see all this time i've been trying to put in battle dancer for the extra charisma and I liked how the flavor of not wearing armor was but i did kinda miss it....now I can bake my cake and eat it too! sweet

Edit:I just realized you took the unarmed swordsage variant nvm.

[AvatarVecna]

Ascetic Mage just stacks Monk and Sorcerer for the AC bonus (the +1,+2,etc stuff). That's the only class specific mention. Everything else works fine.

Seconding this. The only thing that keys off the Monk and Sorcerer specifically is the AC bonus increase (it stacks your levels in the two classes to determine the extra AC bonus). The other benefits can be useful without those classes; I recently made a Bard/Swordsage for the Battle Dancer round in the Zinc Saucier challenge here ITP.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Hold on....doesn't ascetic mage only work with sorcerer? and does this mean I'm gonna have to drop slippers of battle dancing? because the more I try to work them in the more of a headache they seem to be.
Yeah, it's probably for the best. They are, as you've discovered, difficult to make effective, and you might wind up playing your character for months before you get your hands on a pair.

Charisma to AC has been discussed. Snowflake Wardance gets it to melee attack (a fey race and Charming the Arrow can get it for ranged attacks, too). Force of Personality lets you use it for Will saves, as can a Crusader dip. Gauntlets of Heartfelt Blows can give it to melee damage, albeit as fire damage.

[Masakan]

quick question though on dreads suggestion, since i need rankes in concentration anyway, would it be a good idea to swap melodic casting, for captivating melody?


Yeah, it's probably for the best. They are, as you've discovered, difficult to make effective, and you might wind up playing your character for months before you get your hands on a pair.

Charisma to AC has been discussed. Snowflake Wardance gets it to melee attack (a fey race and Charming the Arrow can get it for ranged attacks, too). Force of Personality lets you use it for Will saves, as can a Crusader dip. Gauntlets of Heartfelt Blows can give it to melee damage, albeit as fire damage.

fire damage is better than no damage.

[Dread_Head]

quick question though on dreads suggestion, since i need rankes in concentration anyway, would it be a good idea to swap melodic casting, for captivating melody?

Melodic castings main benefit is that you can cast spells while maintaining your bardic music, removing the need for concentration is just a secondary benefit. If your fights never or rarely last longer than 5 rounds you can ditch it, likewise if you take lingering song or have a harmonising weapon.

As others have pointed out, Ascetic Mage maintains most of its benefits with Bard / Swordsage only losing out on a couple. I had forgotten it required IUS however so if you can't go unarmed swordsage then either delay TWFing to level 12 (Remember that Gloves of the Balanced Hand can give you access to it sooner) or switch Melodic Casting for IUS.

[Masakan]

Melodic castings main benefit is that you can cast spells while maintaining your bardic music, removing the need for concentration is just a secondary benefit. If your fights never or rarely last longer than 5 rounds you can ditch it, likewise if you take lingering song or have a harmonising weapon.

As others have pointed out, Ascetic Mage maintains most of its benefits with Bard / Swordsage only losing out on a couple. I had forgotten it required IUS however so if you can't go unarmed swordsage then either delay TWFing to level 12 (Remember that Gloves of the Balanced Hand can give you access to it sooner) or switch Melodic Casting for IUS.
I see no reason not to, and I can't imagine any dm being so anal as to not allow that.

[Troacctid]

Melodic castings main benefit is that you can cast spells while maintaining your bardic music, removing the need for concentration is just a secondary benefit. If your fights never or rarely last longer than 5 rounds you can ditch it, likewise if you take lingering song or have a harmonising weapon.

Disagree. Replacing Concentration with Perform is by far the more significant benefit. It saves a lot of valuable skill points, and doubles as a sizable bonus to the check (usually at least +7) so that you can easily auto-succeed even at lower levels. Casting spells while performing is mostly irrelevant, as few combats last long enough for it to matter.

[Masakan]

Disagree. Replacing Concentration with Perform is by far the more significant benefit. It saves a lot of valuable skill points, and doubles as a sizable bonus to the check (usually at least +7) so that you can easily auto-succeed even at lower levels. Casting spells while performing is mostly irrelevant, as few combats last long enough for it to matter.

I would also Like to point out that Inspire Courage wouldn't be a major factor in the build at all in fact it's highly unlikely I would ever use it past the first few levels.

[Dread_Head]

Disagree. Replacing Concentration with Perform is by far the more significant benefit. It saves a lot of valuable skill points, and doubles as a sizable bonus to the check (usually at least +7) so that you can easily auto-succeed even at lower levels. Casting spells while performing is mostly irrelevant, as few combats last long enough for it to matter.

If you are facing multiple combats in a row (eg. in a dungeon) then the feat allows you to keep up the same performance throughout so you don't need to waste actions each combat starting your performance (and casting Inspirational boost / activating badge of valour). I found it pretty useful the two times I've played a Bard (admittedly both were at quite low levels).

@Masakan Since you need ranks in Concentration anyway and won't be using IC much then you are correct that the feat doesn't provide much benefit and you should skip it. If you are planning on mainly casting Illusion / Enchantment spells then Captivating Melody seems a reasonable choice here.

[Deadline]

When looking to build a new character and wanting to reduce MAD, I always use Person Man's X Stat to Y bonus (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?125732-3-x-X-stat-to-Y-bonus) resource. It's been really helpful.