Starcraft 2 Zeratul

[Traab]

Is it just me? Or does he seem to lose every ally he ever recruits during his missions? I mean, I just got done playing the prologue for the protoss expansion and yet AGAIN he ropes some random protoss mini leader into giving him backup, and yet again he gets to escape while they die gloriously holding the line. The same thing happened when he was finding the prophecy and dealing with the zerg chasing him iirc. No wonder his people "dont understand" what he is doing. Every protoss troop that DOES understand tends to suicide!

[Winthur]

Zeratul is either a clueless dumbo or a mastermind behind everything that has ever gone wrong in the entire Starcraft universe, and the reason Aldaris was right from the start.

Zeratul got a kill on Zasz in exchange for giving Overmind the location of Aiur. Great strategic move, trade a lieutenant for the whole homeplanet. This is like getting checkmated to capture a Rook. This is never acknowledged as a massive mistake, and nobody ever chews Zeratul out for it or puts it as reason for Dark Templar to be put under scrutiny.

Zeratul somehow manages to get pinned in a Terran installation even though he and his crew is permanently invisible, and if he managed to get that far he somehow didn't set off any detectors, and could have set camp anywhere else but the depth of that dungeon.

Zeratul gets Tassadar killed, if only by the act of teaching him to harness dark powers. Once again, it would be as simple as sending a Dark Templar clean up crew to kill the Overmind, but that never happens because the Protoss can't hold a proper conversation on phone. Either that, or we didn't have an off-screen conversation where Tassadar was actually just fed up with Zeratul's dark crap. This also kills Aldaris later.

Zeratul falls for Raszagal being obviously brainwashed. Silence, Judicator! Continue, Kerrigan. Why don't you trust Aldaris? He actually has insights into what's going on, he's been with the Protoss from the start, he was a major political figure, he's been giving you the best advice in the entire game - to construct additional Pylons. I dare you to beat even the easy Protoss campaign with just the starting amount of Pylons. Instead Aldaris gets isolated over Kerrigan and in true Protoss fashion can't just call people on the phone and explain that Raszagal is manipulated from the start. He starts a civil war. Zeratul was either too clueless to just keep in touch with a strong ally (the Matriarch Raszagal has no insight into the actual Protoss ways because she spent performing voodoo on Shakuras, Artanis is a gung-ho hotshot Scout pilot [willingly becoming a Scout pilot is not a high mark of one intelligence], Kerrigan is KERRIGAN) or just wanted Aldaris out of the picture because he had a petty rivalry with him over the events of the original Starcraft where Aldaris was entitled to what he believed in.

Look at the actions of the "protagonists" in the original Starcraft: Tassadar turns a sizable amount of his fleet into sacrificial lambs so that Zeratul can make a stab at Zasz that condemns the Protoss to doom at the hands of the Zerg (and possibly dooming the rest of the universe, with the Zerg beginning their purity of form & essence plan), and then Tassadar tells Aldaris to waste a ton of resources (there were REAVERS there, man! Fenix died to hold that stuff!) only to later be like "whoops, forgot to tell you all the crucial information about how Cerebrates should actually be fought". But Aldaris is the one in the wrong.

Zeratul suspects a dark influence over his Matriarch from the beginning, still walks into the events of To Slay The Beast and The Reckoning with extreme ease.

The reason Duran allowed to reveal the whole plan to Zeratul was simply because Zeratul is too incompetent or indifferent to actually do anything about anything.

What Zeratul does in Starcraft 2 is entirely in character for him being either the greatest idiot in the universe or a straight up evil character. He gets good people killed throughout the course of the series. This is the one part of Starcraft lore that proves Metzen is actually a genius storyteller and the entire Zeratul story arc is comparable in scope and scale to the great plane scene from The Dark Knight Rises.

[Gandariel]

Whoa, that is one very detailed analysis. Also, damn. I haven't played the prologue yet, got spoiler'd.

Anyways, I've never read into this so deeply, but I wouldn't go as far as to say Zeratul is evil. I mean, plot holes happen, especially in huge stories like this (the eagles in LotR, the numerous holes in the Harry Potter saga...)

I just played through it without thinking too much about it, which is probably safer :P

[Starbuck_II]

They all fell for the Zeratul gambit. He is the greatest troll in the universe. Haters are gonna hate. He is just strolling through. Don't mind the ultralisk.

[Cespenar]

You people just can't handle Zeratul's coolness. May his cape never stop flowing.

[Dienekes]

Zeratul is either a clueless dumbo or a mastermind behind everything that has ever gone wrong in the entire Starcraft universe, and the reason Aldaris was right from the start.

Zeratul got a kill on Zasz in exchange for giving Overmind the location of Aiur. Great strategic move, trade a lieutenant for the whole homeplanet. This is like getting checkmated to capture a Rook. This is never acknowledged as a massive mistake, and nobody ever chews Zeratul out for it or puts it as reason for Dark Templar to be put under scrutiny.

Zeratul somehow manages to get pinned in a Terran installation even though he and his crew is permanently invisible, and if he managed to get that far he somehow didn't set off any detectors, and could have set camp anywhere else but the depth of that dungeon.

Zeratul gets Tassadar killed, if only by the act of teaching him to harness dark powers. Once again, it would be as simple as sending a Dark Templar clean up crew to kill the Overmind, but that never happens because the Protoss can't hold a proper conversation on phone. Either that, or we didn't have an off-screen conversation where Tassadar was actually just fed up with Zeratul's dark crap. This also kills Aldaris later.

Just going through these 3 because I have not played Brood War in a long time.

No one knew that killing Zasz would link Zeratul to the Overmind. They just were testing out a theory on how to kill the Cerebrates which needed to be done. This has nothing to do with being an idiot or evil, just doing what needing to be done and not being omniscient.

Tassadar killed himself. There is no way you can pin that on Zeratul. If it was necessary, it should have been explained better. If it was not necessary, Tassadar just had a giant sized martyr complex.

That said, Zeratul not ending BW with sending a message to everyone going:

Yo Protoss bros and Raynor. Looks like some sumbitch named Duran is trying to mix Protoss and Zerg DNA. Really weird crap is happening here, let me tell you. Anyway, he is really implying to be working for the Xel'Naga. I know, I was all like 'WWHHHAAAT?' Anyway, I'm gonna go check this **** out. Peace!

Is really a mark against him.

[Winthur]

No one knew that killing Zasz would link Zeratul to the Overmind. They just were testing out a theory on how to kill the Cerebrates which needed to be done. This has nothing to do with being an idiot or evil, just doing what needing to be done and not being omniscient.
Zeratul did so on the orders of a renegade Protoss commander who has disobeyed orders more than once, even though the torching of the planets immediately was, strategically speaking, the way to go for the Protoss. The order to kill the Cerebrate was, ultimately, massively irresponsible, especially since, until the deed was done, the Overmind had no knowledge of the location of Aiur, as it was a Protoss secret. Furthermore, Tassadar failed to disclose the fact that the Dark Templar's energies were the only thing that could actually harm the cerebrates; the assault on the cerebrate in Antioch was utterly futile and a waste of resources.

The Zerg hadn't threatened any of the Protoss core worlds prior to that. Zasz's death didn't matter much in the grand scheme of things - he was just an extension of the Overmind's will. He just kinda makes those Cerebrates at will, really. Not only did Zeratul reveal his cards too early by slaying Zasz when it wasn't necessary, he managed to ruin a state secret.

The plan could have had contigencies built into it. A younger generation of the Dark Templar could have carried out the task in order to avoid this kind of mind-meld from disclosing the location of Aiur (assuming, of course, that the newer generations would have no exact knowledge of the planet's whereabouts). Zeratul's overblown hero stats are a result of his experience; any invisible schmuck with a Warp Blade can hack a meatball to pieces.


Tassadar killed himself. There is no way you can pin that on Zeratul. If it was necessary, it should have been explained better. If it was not necessary, Tassadar just had a giant sized martyr complex.
The good guys in this campaign lack foresight something fierce: after realizing that the Dark Templar energies are the only thing that can eradicate the Overmind tissue, they still fail to leave at least a single batallion/platoon/strikeforce/hell, even just one Dark Templar would suffice, with the strikeforce lead by Tassadar, Fenix and Raynor (and, apparently, Artanis; it is suggested that the Executor from SC1 is supposed to be him). I don't know if Zeratul's pals just decided to ditch him and Aiur, or what other reason is there for him being alone after the events of Homeland, and why didn't he show up in Eye of the Storm.

Clearly, Tassadar has failed us, and Dark Templar are awful people.


That said, Zeratul not ending BW with sending a message to everyone going:

Yo Protoss bros and Raynor. Looks like some sumbitch named Duran is trying to mix Protoss and Zerg DNA. Really weird crap is happening here, let me tell you. Anyway, he is really implying to be working for the Xel'Naga. I know, I was all like 'WWHHHAAAT?' Anyway, I'm gonna go check this **** out. Peace!

Is really a mark against him.

Yeah, true.

[Dienekes]

Zeratul did so on the orders of a renegade Protoss commander who has disobeyed orders more than once, even though the torching of the planets immediately was, strategically speaking, the way to go for the Protoss. The order to kill the Cerebrate was, ultimately, massively irresponsible, especially since, until the deed was done, the Overmind had no knowledge of the location of Aiur, as it was a Protoss secret. Furthermore, Tassadar failed to disclose the fact that the Dark Templar's energies were the only thing that could actually harm the cerebrates; the assault on the cerebrate in Antioch was utterly futile and a waste of resources.

The Zerg hadn't threatened any of the Protoss core worlds prior to that. Zasz's death didn't matter much in the grand scheme of things - he was just an extension of the Overmind's will. He just kinda makes those Cerebrates at will, really. Not only did Zeratul reveal his cards too early by slaying Zasz when it wasn't necessary, he managed to ruin a state secret.

The plan could have had contigencies built into it. A younger generation of the Dark Templar could have carried out the task in order to avoid this kind of mind-meld from disclosing the location of Aiur (assuming, of course, that the newer generations would have no exact knowledge of the planet's whereabouts). Zeratul's overblown hero stats are a result of his experience; any invisible schmuck with a Warp Blade can hack a meatball to pieces.

Well, considering all the non-renegade Protoss commanders wanted to capture and kill Zeratul for no reason, the fact that he listens to one of the ones who don't isn't really a mark against him, so much as against the Conclave. Killing the Cerebrate had a negative outcome, sure. But the point remains, no one had any idea that that would happen. No one even thought of the possibility that it would happen. Why should they? No one figured killing a Cerebrate would touch your mind to the Overmind, because that had never happened before. Why would anyone make a contingency for that situation? If you're trying to kill something incredibly important, send your best at it. That's just the logical response. Again, this point against Zeratul is just complaining that he's not omniscient.


The good guys in this campaign lack foresight something fierce: after realizing that the Dark Templar energies are the only thing that can eradicate the Overmind tissue, they still fail to leave at least a single batallion/platoon/strikeforce/hell, even just one Dark Templar would suffice, with the strikeforce lead by Tassadar, Fenix and Raynor (and, apparently, Artanis; it is suggested that the Executor from SC1 is supposed to be him). I don't know if Zeratul's pals just decided to ditch him and Aiur, or what other reason is there for him being alone after the events of Homeland, and why didn't he show up in Eye of the Storm.

Clearly, Tassadar has failed us, and Dark Templar are awful people.

Actually, one of the things I do remember about Brood War, is that in the first mission you play as Zeratul, meaning he was on Aiur during the previous attack on the Overmind. No idea why he wasn't playable in the last mission, because he is with the Executor directly after the battle is over. Probably, because the game designers thought that his presence as one more hero unit would be too confusing, maybe. Really, I don't know. In the fluff of the game he was there, that's the important thing I think. That and some bad writing as to why Tassadar needed to pretend to be a Scourge in his last moments.

Then like a nice guy he gives the refuge Protoss (the ones who ordered his people to be hunted down like animals, by the way) a new home on Shakuras.

Also, a rather minor note about Artanis from your earlier post about being dumb for being a Scout pilot. While it was funny, that is one of the gameplay vs fluff divides in the game. In the books and background material, a single Protoss Scout is powerful enough to take on an entire squadron of 12 Wraiths and come out with minimal damage. And 4 Zealots can kill an Ultralisk for that mater. And Ghosts can read minds. And a few Archons can cover an entire planet in Psy-Storms.

[Winthur]

Well, considering all the non-renegade Protoss commanders wanted to capture and kill Zeratul
Where? He was of no concern to the Conclave because he was a non-person. Until he started acting like a terrorist and causing their loyal men to defect, they left him alone as the banished he was. If he returned to Aiur and tried to screw around, he'd be dead.


Killing the Cerebrate had a negative outcome, sure. But the point remains, no one had any idea that that would happen. No one even thought of the possibility that it would happen.
At the very least, that still counts as showing that the Protoss have a potent weapon to kill Cerebrates, putting cards forth way too early.


Why should they? No one figured killing a Cerebrate would touch your mind to the Overmind, because that had never happened before. Why would anyone make a contingency for that situation? If you're trying to kill something incredibly important, send your best at it. That's just the logical response. Again, this point against Zeratul is just complaining that he's not omniscient.
If Zeratul and Overmind freely exchanged information, as is implied, more things could have been done. While the Overmind's staggered, Zeratul could have informed Tassadar something to the effect of having touched the two minds. It was a careless operation planned out by a careless strategist, and the Zerg attack on Aiur caught the Protoss off-guard, further dooming their chances of repelling the invasion. When your Zerg invade the planet, in-game, the Protoss are divided into layers of factions and they can't attack you at the same time until you start expanding. The surprise attack was a factor in the Zerg's effortless victory.



Actually, one of the things I do remember about Brood War, is that in the first mission you play as Zeratul, meaning he was on Aiur during the previous attack on the Overmind. No idea why he wasn't playable in the last mission, because he is with the Executor directly after the battle is over. Probably, because the game designers thought that his presence as one more hero unit would be too confusing, maybe. Really, I don't know. In the fluff of the game he was there, that's the important thing I think. That and some bad writing as to why Tassadar needed to pretend to be a Scourge in his last moments.
Yeah.


Then like a nice guy he gives the refuge Protoss (the ones who ordered his people to be hunted down like animals, by the way) a new home on Shakuras.
With no Conclave to lead the Protoss he becomes, de facto, the top of the chain of command of an entire populace, and the PR is on his side as the guy who sided with the mighty Tassadar. He has a very cosy position.

If interpreted my way, Aldaris becomes the true hero of the Protoss who saw past all of Zeratul's treachery and wanted to stop it. I like Aldaris.


Also, a rather minor note about Artanis from your earlier post about being dumb for being a Scout pilot. While it was funny, that is one of the gameplay vs fluff divides in the game. In the books and background material, a single Protoss Scout is powerful enough to take on an entire squadron of 12 Wraiths and come out with minimal damage. And 4 Zealots can kill an Ultralisk for that mater. And Ghosts can read minds. And a few Archons can cover an entire planet in Psy-Storms.
Oh, that's cool to know, I never actually knew about any of that since I haven't read any of the supporting material. Hard to get by and I've burnt myself on videogame book adaptations. Cool stuff, though.

(Though I'm pretty sure 4 Zealots do kill an Ultralisk in this game...)

(And as for Ghosts reading minds, well, that's exactly what Kerrigan did to Raynor when they first met in this game)

[The Glyphstone]

(And as for Ghosts reading minds, well, that's exactly what Kerrigan did to Raynor when they first met in this game)

And wasn't impressed by his surface thoughts either, from what I remember.:smallbiggrin:

[The_Jackal]

For what it's worth, I agree that Zeratul is a huge idiot, but to be fair, intelligent, rational, and patient decision-making isn't something we see exhibited even in the real world. Also, it's important to remember that while viewers of stories are keenly aware of tropes, the protagonists of those stories never are (except in satire, here's where you look at the Scream movies). Lastly, and most importantly, story <<<<< gameplay. The plot in Starcraft (as in every other Blizzard title) is there to set a backdrop to the game, not to weave a cunning and coherent narrative that will thrill the viewer with the wit and wisdom of the protagonists.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Blind irrational hate is just as annoying as going full fanboi. Zeratul is a mortal who occasionally screws up because he's trying to actually save people instead of consolidate his own personal power, which takes more risks than casual genocide of a neutral party on the offhand chance that it MIGHT offer a slight tactical advantage against their foe (Protip: it didn't really, it just pissed off the Terrans and caused a three-way free-for-all brawl rather than terrans and protoss allied. Pure ego there for the Conclave).

When you take chances, the odds of occasionally screwing up gets pretty high. Honestly, I approve of Zeratul more as a character BECAUSE he screws up like any mortal will instead of being a complete Gary Stu and roflstomping everything. Mind you, I think you're being unnecessarily harsh in your condemnation, many things you are laying on Zeratul should rightfully be placed elsewhere, but you have your opinions and are not inclined to change them, therefore debate is pointless.

As far as protoss sacrificing themselves... what do you expect from a race whose primary unit is a Zealot? The entire race is apparently hard-wired to die gloriously and self-sacrifice is inherent in their tactics because they KNOW they can come back as a Dragoon/Immortal/Stalker/Archon/etc... so the sacrifice isn't as great as it might otherwise be. Is there ANY Protoss hero who hasn't sacrificed themselves, zeratul present or not? Other than the corrupt Enclave who needed to die a horribly bigot's death?

[Dienekes]

Blind irrational hate is just as annoying as going full fanboi. Zeratul is a mortal who occasionally screws up because he's trying to actually save people instead of consolidate his own personal power, which takes more risks than casual genocide of a neutral party on the offhand chance that it MIGHT offer a slight tactical advantage against their foe (Protip: it didn't really, it just pissed off the Terrans and caused a three-way free-for-all brawl rather than terrans and protoss allied. Pure ego there for the Conclave).

When you take chances, the odds of occasionally screwing up gets pretty high. Honestly, I approve of Zeratul more as a character BECAUSE he screws up like any mortal will instead of being a complete Gary Stu and roflstomping everything. Mind you, I think you're being unnecessarily harsh in your condemnation, many things you are laying on Zeratul should rightfully be placed elsewhere, but you have your opinions and are not inclined to change them, therefore debate is pointless.

As far as protoss sacrificing themselves... what do you expect from a race whose primary unit is a Zealot? The entire race is apparently hard-wired to die gloriously and self-sacrifice is inherent in their tactics because they KNOW they can come back as a Dragoon/Immortal/Stalker/Archon/etc... so the sacrifice isn't as great as it might otherwise be. Is there ANY Protoss hero who hasn't sacrificed themselves, zeratul present or not? Other than the corrupt Enclave who needed to die a horribly bigot's death?

I don't think Artanis has sacrificed himself yet.

And then there's mother****in' Fenix, who volunteers to be put in every difficult mission and suicidal scenario in the game, and still manages to survive until near the end of Brood War.

Fenix was great.

[GolemsVoice]

Yeah, you need to remember that Protoss are HUGE on honorable sacrifices and dying in battle. It really charges up their shields, know what I'm sayin'?

Also, fascinating BW discussion, I wish I remembered enough of BW to actually join in.

[Legoshrimp]

Hmm this has made me want to play SC and BW again... I think I will try to stream it. I will possibly try to do it tonight(which is a terrible way to indicate things :smalltongue:) Since I am in Switzerland tonight is in like 6 or 7 hours.

Starting streaming now! twitch.tv/legoshrimp

[Mr.Moron]

Hindsight is 20/20, especially from a 3rd party position that's privvy to the details of the goings on with every party in situation. Killing a buggy-commander is a good idea right up until you learn about the psychic link, and certainly not a decision that would have been had they had foreknowledge of that. Then again if folks knew lead was poison all along they probably wouldn't have ever used it to sweeten their drinks.

Sometimes you can make a perfectly reasonable decision based on the information you hand, despite missing an important piece of the puzzle. Unknown-Unknowns and all that.

[Anxe]

So... Theory...

Zeratul's getting all these messages from Tassadar. Maybe they're really from Amon? And the "prophecy" is Amon's attempt to destroy the universe? Like bringing Kerrigan back. The Taal'darim were guarding some of the Artifact pieces, maybe not to prevent them from getting into Raynor's hands, but to ensure that he could find them. And now he wants Artanis for something else. Artanis is present in the last Wings of Liberty Zeratul mission, so maybe something to do with that?

[Dienekes]

So... Theory...

Zeratul's getting all these messages from Tassadar. Maybe they're really from Amon? And the "prophecy" is Amon's attempt to destroy the universe? Like bringing Kerrigan back. The Taal'darim were guarding some of the Artifact pieces, maybe not to prevent them from getting into Raynor's hands, but to ensure that he could find them. And now he wants Artanis for something else. Artanis is present in the last Wings of Liberty Zeratul mission, so maybe something to do with that?

Possible, but a potential problem with most of these kind of theories:

Amon already had Duran to do his bidding. All the fake prophecy to get Zeratul to do your dirty work stuff would have been easier to just send the insanely powerful shapeshifter without telling anyone that he was even coming back to try and take over the galaxy.

Also, the Taal'darim are most definitely working for Amon, so if they have the artifacts before Raynor then Amon already had the artifacts, meaning having Raynor get them again is pointless.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Possible, but a potential problem with most of these kind of theories:

Amon already had Duran to do his bidding. All the fake prophecy to get Zeratul to do your dirty work stuff would have been easier to just send the insanely powerful shapeshifter without telling anyone that he was even coming back to try and take over the galaxy.

Also, the Taal'darim are most definitely working for Amon, so if they have the artifacts before Raynor then Amon already had the artifacts, meaning having Raynor get them again is pointless.

Plus original siting of ghost-Tassadar was in WoL during a flashback from Zeratul long before Kerrigan got hit by the artifact and resurrected Amon. It's doubtful he could've done such a thing back then AND have Duran/Narud running around.

[GolemsVoice]

One thing you also need to consider is that, at least in SC II, Zeratul is the only one who is actually doing something to prevent the end of the world, while all other factions are either too busy or don't even know what's going on. They only learn once Zeratul told them.

[Anxe]

Plus original siting of ghost-Tassadar was in WoL during a flashback from Zeratul long before Kerrigan got hit by the artifact and resurrected Amon. It's doubtful he could've done such a thing back then AND have Duran/Narud running around.

Kerrigan getting hit by the Artifact resurrected Amon? I missed that part. And doesn't that support my theory?

[Traab]

Possible, but a potential problem with most of these kind of theories:

Amon already had Duran to do his bidding. All the fake prophecy to get Zeratul to do your dirty work stuff would have been easier to just send the insanely powerful shapeshifter without telling anyone that he was even coming back to try and take over the galaxy.

Also, the Taal'darim are most definitely working for Amon, so if they have the artifacts before Raynor then Amon already had the artifacts, meaning having Raynor get them again is pointless.

That is kind of weird. Narud wants to get the artifact pieces. The taldarim already have them for the most part. I think the very first one is the only one not guarded by taldarim. And the tal darim work for amon same as narud. Wtf? Did they ALWAYS work for amon? Or was him coming back something that triggered brainwashing? We dont learn that amon is already alive until the kerrigan/duran final battle. Up till then its just this lingering terror that he MIGHT come back or is trying to. I dont recall the artifact specifically bringing him back, as we still dont know wtf duran was up to beyond making the hybrids. Maybe we will get the answers when the third expansion is finally released.

Personally, I only started this thread because I played the preview missions and found it amusing that yet again zeratul managed to find a group of protoss to back him up while he digs for prophecies, and once again they all sacrifice themselves just so he can make his escape. First time they all died so he could escape kerrigan back in the terran missions when raynor does his flashback mission vision thing with the device zeratul left him. Second time its with these hybrids and other evil amon creature things. You would think he would at least try to keep the leaders alive, if only to have some more support when he inevitably shows up at the conclave to warn them of the approaching doom. "No seriously guys! I read prophecies! And the ghost of tassadar totally showed up to talk to me! No im not crazy! Yes that would be on the planets where all your assigned forces got wiped out shortly after I arrived. Whats that got to do with anything?"

[Dienekes]

That is kind of weird. Narud wants to get the artifact pieces. The taldarim already have them for the most part. I think the very first one is the only one not guarded by taldarim. And the tal darim work for amon same as narud. Wtf? Did they ALWAYS work for amon? Or was him coming back something that triggered brainwashing? We dont learn that amon is already alive until the kerrigan/duran final battle. Up till then its just this lingering terror that he MIGHT come back or is trying to. I dont recall the artifact specifically bringing him back, as we still dont know wtf duran was up to beyond making the hybrids. Maybe we will get the answers when the third expansion is finally released.

Personally, I only started this thread because I played the preview missions and found it amusing that yet again zeratul managed to find a group of protoss to back him up while he digs for prophecies, and once again they all sacrifice themselves just so he can make his escape. First time they all died so he could escape kerrigan back in the terran missions when raynor does his flashback mission vision thing with the device zeratul left him. Second time its with these hybrids and other evil amon creature things. You would think he would at least try to keep the leaders alive, if only to have some more support when he inevitably shows up at the conclave to warn them of the approaching doom. "No seriously guys! I read prophecies! And the ghost of tassadar totally showed up to talk to me! No im not crazy! Yes that would be on the planets where all your assigned forces got wiped out shortly after I arrived. Whats that got to do with anything?"

Infested Stukov makes some completely unsubstantiated comments that Kerrigan was really powerful as the Queen of Blades, and when she was de-zerganized her power had to go somewhere. And apparently, after the battle Narud stole the device from Raynor and used it to revive Amon. Assuming that Stukov is right, and we're given no reason to believe he is wrong (or right for that matter) that's how it was done. Object de-powered Kerrigan and stored said energy and then used it to jumpstart Amon back to life.

As to why the Tal'darim didn't just give Raynor the device since they also wanted Amon to return. The answer is pretty obvious: poorly plotted writing.

[GolemsVoice]

That is kind of weird. Narud wants to get the artifact pieces. The taldarim already have them for the most part. I think the very first one is the only one not guarded by taldarim. And the tal darim work for amon same as narud. Wtf? Did they ALWAYS work for amon? Or was him coming back something that triggered brainwashing? We dont learn that amon is already alive until the kerrigan/duran final battle. Up till then its just this lingering terror that he MIGHT come back or is trying to. I dont recall the artifact specifically bringing him back, as we still dont know wtf duran was up to beyond making the hybrids. Maybe we will get the answers when the third expansion is finally released.

Personally, I only started this thread because I played the preview missions and found it amusing that yet again zeratul managed to find a group of protoss to back him up while he digs for prophecies, and once again they all sacrifice themselves just so he can make his escape. First time they all died so he could escape kerrigan back in the terran missions when raynor does his flashback mission vision thing with the device zeratul left him. Second time its with these hybrids and other evil amon creature things. You would think he would at least try to keep the leaders alive, if only to have some more support when he inevitably shows up at the conclave to warn them of the approaching doom. "No seriously guys! I read prophecies! And the ghost of tassadar totally showed up to talk to me! No im not crazy! Yes that would be on the planets where all your assigned forces got wiped out shortly after I arrived. Whats that got to do with anything?"

To be fair, the Protoss in the prophecy mission came there by themselves, and they would have died anyway, Zeratul or not.

[The Glyphstone]

Infested Stukov makes some completely unsubstantiated comments that Kerrigan was really powerful as the Queen of Blades, and when she was de-zerganized her power had to go somewhere. And apparently, after the battle Narud stole the device from Raynor and used it to revive Amon. Assuming that Stukov is right, and we're given no reason to believe he is wrong (or right for that matter) that's how it was done. Object de-powered Kerrigan and stored said energy and then used it to jumpstart Amon back to life.

As to why the Tal'darim didn't just give Raynor the device since they also wanted Amon to return. The answer is pretty obvious: poorly plotted writing.

You don't need poor writing when your characters are explicitly psychotic religious fanatics. There's all sorts of reasons why the Tal'Darim couldn't or wouldn't give their sacred artifact components to a non-Protoss outsider. Convincing them otherwise would be far difficult than just letting a bunch of them get slaughtered by Raynor+Co, and Amon pretty much defines 'bad boss' as far as sacrificing minions goes.

[Traab]

To be fair, the Protoss in the prophecy mission came there by themselves, and they would have died anyway, Zeratul or not.

Not necessarily. They could have tried to escape, but they felt it was better to die holding the line so ZERATUL could escape. They beamed down all their people, and in general fought a hopeless battle just to buy him time to flee. Now, maybe they would have done that anyway, they seem to enjoy fighting to the end even when they know they cant win despite coming back another day better prepared being the intelligent thing, but they might not have.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Infested Stukov makes some completely unsubstantiated comments that Kerrigan was really powerful as the Queen of Blades, and when she was de-zerganized her power had to go somewhere. And apparently, after the battle Narud stole the device from Raynor and used it to revive Amon. Assuming that Stukov is right, and we're given no reason to believe he is wrong (or right for that matter) that's how it was done. Object de-powered Kerrigan and stored said energy and then used it to jumpstart Amon back to life.

As to why the Tal'darim didn't just give Raynor the device since they also wanted Amon to return. The answer is pretty obvious: poorly plotted writing.

Actually, it was more explicitly spelled out in the mission where she went down to face the Hybrids, and then in the next mission where she takes on Duran. The Hybrids were built and designed to drain and store energy. So when the artifact de-zergified Kerrigan, the Hybrids hanging out in the system but out of combat and sensor range sucked up all the energy, which was then used to resurrect Amon.

The artifact was taken by the Terran official army (which Raynor saved) and transported to Korhal where it featured prominently in the final cutscene of HotS.

[GolemsVoice]

Not necessarily. They could have tried to escape, but they felt it was better to die holding the line so ZERATUL could escape. They beamed down all their people, and in general fought a hopeless battle just to buy him time to flee. Now, maybe they would have done that anyway, they seem to enjoy fighting to the end even when they know they cant win despite coming back another day better prepared being the intelligent thing, but they might not have.

I recently replayed that mission, and if I remember correctly, they knew they were screwed either way. Also, Zeratul offers to stand and fight with them, and they explicitly tell him to go. Protoss are really big on sacrifices and last stands. Also, if Kerrigan is around, it's unlikely they would have made it out.

[Name_Here]

Zeratul did so on the orders of a renegade Protoss commander who has disobeyed orders more than once, even though the torching of the planets immediately was, strategically speaking, the way to go for the Protoss. The order to kill the Cerebrate was, ultimately, massively irresponsible, especially since, until the deed was done, the Overmind had no knowledge of the location of Aiur, as it was a Protoss secret. Furthermore, Tassadar failed to disclose the fact that the Dark Templar's energies were the only thing that could actually harm the cerebrates; the assault on the cerebrate in Antioch was utterly futile and a waste of resources.

It really was only a good strategy in the short term and only if the Zerg weren't a powerful empire in their own right. In the long term it was basically playing whack-a-mole Protoss style. They were never going to successfully defeat the Zerg swarm that way nor were they even really protecting their people too much since Zerg were still spreading. Torching planets was make-work for the Protoss fleet.

Killing a Cerebrate at least was taking the fight to the enemy. Was an attack plan that would do more than just keep the Protoss fleet busy accomplishing nothing.


The Zerg hadn't threatened any of the Protoss core worlds prior to that. Zasz's death didn't matter much in the grand scheme of things - he was just an extension of the Overmind's will. He just kinda makes those Cerebrates at will, really. Not only did Zeratul reveal his cards too early by slaying Zasz when it wasn't necessary, he managed to ruin a state secret.

Actually no Zasz's death was the biggest setback to the Overmind in the entire campaign. It knocked out the Overmind for multiple missions IIRC and it sent Zasz's brood on a rampage deep in the Zerg lines. Also note that the Overmind never actually replaced Zasz or any of the other Cerebrates with a fresh Cerebrate. Sure he was busy with the invasion of Auir at the time but that alone kinda proves the point that he can't just whip up a new Cerebrate in a few minutes. It's a definite investment of time and resources.


The plan could have had contigencies built into it. A younger generation of the Dark Templar could have carried out the task in order to avoid this kind of mind-meld from disclosing the location of Aiur (assuming, of course, that the newer generations would have no exact knowledge of the planet's whereabouts). Zeratul's overblown hero stats are a result of his experience; any invisible schmuck with a Warp Blade can hack a meatball to pieces.

IIRC the average Protoss is over a hundred years old by the time he goes into battle. Zeratul and Tassadar are near a thousand. I doubt that any of the Dark Templar have been raised not being told of Aiur and how to get home too it when their exile is ended.

[TechnoWarforged]

They don't call him "Zeratool" for nothing. lol.

[Winthur]

It really was only a good strategy in the short term and only if the Zerg weren't a powerful empire in their own right. In the long term it was basically playing whack-a-mole Protoss style. They were never going to successfully defeat the Zerg swarm that way nor were they even really protecting their people too much since Zerg were still spreading. Torching planets was make-work for the Protoss fleet.

Killing a Cerebrate at least was taking the fight to the enemy. Was an attack plan that would do more than just keep the Protoss fleet busy accomplishing nothing.
The Protoss were isolationists; a lot of their technology probably went into making sure that Aiur remained a "secret homeworld". We don't know how many planets were Protoss homeplanets (or if there are any extra ones at all; Zeratul insists on going to Shakuras and no other possibility is named; which might imply Aiur was the only core Protoss world), but it's safe to assume that Zeratul's action allowed Overmind to learn about all of them.

Meanwhile, the Cerebrates are a weird sort anyway. It isn't clear how many of them are there. It is implied that the Cerebrates have to grow for a while after their conception (simulated in the campaign by not allowing you the higher tier techs and units right off the bat) to be fully useful, but still, the Overmind could probably keep making Cerebrates. We meet plenty of them, and it's implied it took quite a lot of them to reincarnate the Overmind on Char. And Daggoth didn't even die either. Overmind made you in Episode II solely for the purpose of sheltering and later guiding Kerrigan.

What was the point of murdering Zasz when it seems like the Overmind can create new ones? Not immediately after their destruction, but by the time of Zasz's assassination, nobody had any plan. They just decided to show their hand; even if it was taking the fight to them, a wiser idea would be to make more, coordinated strikes, a grand Dark Templar operation, and actually keep the Aiur Protoss involved instead of the Overmind learning of their world and immediately sending all of his forces on their home planet (again, you practically ambush them in The Invasion of Aiur and Full Circle).

From our perspective, the Conclave are supposed to be the bad guys, but the only reason they were in the wrong was because Tassadar is horrible at communication on top of being a deserter.




Actually no Zasz's death was the biggest setback to the Overmind in the entire campaign. It knocked out the Overmind for multiple missions IIRC
He was knocked out only for the mission in which Zasz dies, actually. That's not a long time. Immediately afterwards he wakes up and boasts about how the Dark Templar are now cornered (Kerrigan murders them with ease; the Dark Templar weren't even able to escape Char during that lull in the Zerg's defenses), and how he has the entire Protoss homeworld on a silver platter.



and it sent Zasz's brood on a rampage deep in the Zerg lines.

And have the Protoss made use of that? No.



Also note that the Overmind never actually replaced Zasz or any of the other Cerebrates with a fresh Cerebrate. Sure he was busy with the invasion of Auir at the time but that alone kinda proves the point that he can't just whip up a new Cerebrate in a few minutes. It's a definite investment of time and resources.
He didn't need Zasz again. Probably some other Cerebrate took over, and after Overmind consolidated on Aiur, he made some more generals for whatever purposes he needed. He wouldn't be able to create new generals in a fortnight, but over the course of Episode III, he probably had time to make like a dozen.



IIRC the average Protoss is over a hundred years old by the time he goes into battle. Zeratul and Tassadar are near a thousand. I doubt that any of the Dark Templar have been raised not being told of Aiur and how to get home too it when their exile is ended.

Yeah, I suppose that's true: I was speculating on a possibility.

[GolemsVoice]

Again, we know all that, the Protoss did not know it at the time. It still might not have been the best strategy ever, but you can't judge it with knowledge the Protoss could not have had at the time.

[Winthur]

Of course not, but again: Tassadar's unit, we can assume, was not particularly massive or mighty, especially once the Conclave became wary of his actions. He teams up with Zeratul (which begs the question: who are his troops loyal to? Was no one somehow pissed off by the whole idea of consorting with the fallen ones? The Protoss summon their troops through Gateways from Aiur, but they don't have an equally fast way of transmitting information to their home planet? So the Conclave didn't have any idea of Tassadar's treachery? If that is the case, how the hell can neither Tassadar or Zeratul send a warning memo to the Aiurites about an incoming fleet? If Zeratul's mind touched with the Overmind and they both read each other's minds (and Zeratul seems to know about the Overmind's plan), how the hell did neither of them manage to get the memo out in time? An entire Zerg swarm managed to warp itself back to Aiur in that time!) and goes on a rogue mission which they have no way of properly assessing pros and cons of, and to which they never asked themselves the question "What next?"

Zeratul's first order of business upon making the assassination would have to be "oh crap, I just looked eye-to-eye with Sauron, I somehow managed to read some of his secrets, no reason not to assume he didn't do so as well, I should probably tell that to Tassadar and have him relay a message to Aiur to spam Photon Cannons everywhere and stay vigilant, killing that orange guy got us plenty of time to escape the planet for sure". But no, they somehow managed to get themselves trapped in that timespan; the Zerg have enough time to eradicate an entire brood and they don't even have to keep the Dark Templar on Char with any sizable force, they just give Kerrigan a few scraps and have her sort it out.

Even if Zeratul had no way of knowing that his actions will doom his entire race, showing off to the Overmind that there exists a weapon that can utterly wreck him, and using it on a one-off attack against a minor lieutenant without any follow up is ridiculous. If the Zerg were so preoccupied with cleaning up the Garm brood, think about what the Protoss could have achieved in the time slot they bought themselves. But no, they just throw it all away to faciliate an ill-fated experiment.

And look at all the casualties the Protoss had to suffer just for Zeratul to make that one, small, stupid attack on Zasz. Kerrigan wipes out a large Protoss warband and Tassadar nee-neeners at her. Even if the unforeseen consequences were to not exist, the whole plan is just really damn stupid.

This is the equivalent of some gung-ho hotshot colonel taking a super secret weapon for a spin just to bully some random outpost. This is irresponsible and boneheaded.

Zeratul has not made use of the #1 rule in both Starcraft and chess - never stop making peons attack with all your pieces. His Queen took some pawns while Overmind checkmated his King. He made a Dark Templar drop and took out an expansion while the Overmind simply overran his main base while he wasn't looking.

And this still does not make any of the actions of the T&Z dynamic duo okay. Tassadar's claim of "Strike down the Cerebrates, and the swarms will surely fall; it's not like they regenerate or something" should be considered trolling. Aldaris sending the "brave sons of Aiur" with a blessing to the final battle with the Overmind feels like the lament of a beaten wife: Tassadar and Zeratul destroyed the heart of the Conclave (and in BW, Aldaris mentions that there is no Conclave to lead the Protoss anymore, which means that the rebellious Protoss may very well have performed a brutal coup d'etat and assassinated their entire rulership), instigated a pointless civil war in the middle of a Zerg invasion and failed to disclose information with the top branch on numerous occasions at times where it would have been vital. Role model patriots, really.

Admiral DeGaulle had no Dark Templar technology at bay, and when he had to beat up the second Overmind and its three super-special souped up Cerebrates that had abilities such as Tarrasque spawning, he killed the Cerebrates with just the Terran tech, for just a long enough time to take control over the Overmind. That's because he had a clear objective and used the right information. The guy whose entire military campaign is faulty as hell (starting from way back on Braxis, where he fails to make sure the landing site contains gas, not to mention the whole Duran/Stukov fiasco) proves to be a way better strategist (or logistician!) than any of the Protoss, and that's just sad.

[Psyren]

I don't think Zeratul was actually intended to be that stupid (and definitely not actively malicious) but the alternative character interpretation of his sheer ineptitude being pointed out in this thread is making me lol hard :smallbiggrin:

Protoss: "At least we're less dumb than the Covenant!"

[TheTeaMustFlow]

Rule 1 of Starcraft: Everyone is an idiot. Everyone.

[Gandariel]

Welp, it's turn for Zeratul to die heroically to let someone else save the day
...yay?

[Dienekes]

Welp, it's turn for Zeratul to die heroically to let someone else save the day
...yay?


That's about what everyone expected to happen. And we finally see one of our heroes bite it in SC2.

You guys remember SC1? That was a bloodbath, Kerrigan dies, Fenix dies, you -the Cerebrate- dies, Tassadar dies. Then in BW Duke dies, Raszagal dies, Fenix dies, again, Aldaris dies, everyone in the UED dies. It felt like an actual war was going on.

SC2 ended up seeming a lot cleaner, despite supposedly facing the greatest threat of the galaxy.

Honestly, Amon as a whole was severely disappointing. Kerrigan still wins for best Starcraft villain. Even when she was "good" she took out Warfield. Amon made two good moves then just sat there the entire game.

If I can make a reference to a completely different series, it has the same problem as ASOIAF has for me. I am way more interested in the low and dirty politics and betrayals than I ever am about the world ending mystic threat.

[Artanis]

So...honest question: is this going to be more or less turned into a General StarCraft II thread, or shall we make a new one?

[heronbpv]

@Artanis:
In light of the events from the last expansion, I think the name is fitting for the general thread. Can't we just upgrade this one, executor?

Or do we require additional pylons?

[Gandariel]

I haven't purchased the expansion yet, but I plan to and I'll give ladder a try (especially with Archon mode)

Have you guys seen the blizzcon games?

I've seen the finals and semi finals, and there were some AWESOME games!

Game 6 of the finals was really fun, but the best one is definitely

that game in the semifinals, where the zerg 6 pooled, protoss had a beautiful defence, but game kind of equalized, then the Zerg stayed on minerals only for 14 minutes and performed an incredible defense with slow lings and mass queen, before overextending and dying to well placed forcefields.
Don't remember the game, will link later.

[Psyren]

I'm fine with this thread, albeit not opposed to a name change either.

I have a feeling that the SC2 Battle Chest will get a holiday discount so I'm holding out for that. I was waiting for the "entire game edition" to purchase anyway.

[Legoshrimp]

I haven't purchased the expansion yet, but I plan to and I'll give ladder a try (especially with Archon mode)

Have you guys seen the blizzcon games?

I've seen the finals and semi finals, and there were some AWESOME games!

Game 6 of the finals was really fun, but the best one is definitely

that game in the semifinals, where the zerg 6 pooled, protoss had a beautiful defence, but game kind of equalized, then the Zerg stayed on minerals only for 14 minutes and performed an incredible defense with slow lings and mass queen, before overextending and dying to well placed forcefields.
Don't remember the game, will link later.


Well I am thinking of playing ladder more. Also there are the co op missions which seem like they might be cool. I haven't tried them yet though. Still slowly playing through the campaign. I have this problem of replaying a mission 2-3 times to get all of the achievements, so it is taking a longer :P

[Gandariel]

Eh, Coop missions aren't for me. I'm competitive, I want to know I'm beating someone :P

Also.

What do you call a Template who is easily controlled by others?

You would say that Zer-a-Tool!

[Psyren]

Co-op missions sound excellent to me. I loved SC1 co-op.

[VoxRationis]

Rule 1 of Starcraft: Everyone is an idiot. Everyone.

That's just Blizzard games in general. The campaigns of Warcraft 3 have a similar tone to them. People react to "simple misunderstandings" with large-scale violence and no one bothers to try to explain themselves until after their army has been slaughtered. Then, so long as no named characters were among the fallen, everything is instantly forgiven and the two sides team up. It's kind of ridiculous.

[Dienekes]

That's just Blizzard games in general. The campaigns of Warcraft 3 have a similar tone to them. People react to "simple misunderstandings" with large-scale violence and no one bothers to try to explain themselves until after their army has been slaughtered. Then, so long as no named characters were among the fallen, everything is instantly forgiven and the two sides team up. It's kind of ridiculous.

While I admit that Blizzard's writing is hilarious and often bad. I will say, the so long as no one important died we're cool thing actually reflects a few medieval wars I could name. Admittedly, they were mostly between the French, HRE, England, and the Norse who had a weird love/hate relationship going with each other. Not between people from other planets trying to take over the world for their demonic blood pacts.

[Anxe]

I finished the campaign and the Epilogue.
With Kerrigan becoming a Xel'naga does that mean that Humans were the Purity of Form and not the Protoss? And the description of the campaign after you've completed it says that Kerrigan ended the infinite cycle. Does that mean she's just waiting on rebuilding the universe or is she going to keep this one going forever? Is the new mystery life on a bunch of barren planets part of her plan to keep this universe going?

[ChaosOS]

It's not entirely clear what Kerrigan's plans are as a Xel'Naga, but I'm interpreting that Kerrigan embodied Purity of Essence already with her immense psionic power. Plus, the Protoss, with their uplifting and the Khala, were corrupted by Amon so they are presumably not candidates. Kerrigan was a primal zerg so she was still a candidate as the Primal Zerg were untouched by Amon. I personally like where they took the story, it leaves some room for conflict with Zagara taking over the planets local to Char and tensions generated by the Tal'Darim while actually wrapping up the main story without leaving a super obvious cliffhanger like too many franchises do now.

[Anxe]

Yeah, I really liked that the story actually felt finished. Granted it felt finished at the end of Brood War for me as well. I'd guess that an expansion down the road could easily focus on the Xel'naga bodies on Ulnar and what nefarious people are up to with those. Or the Keystone AGAIN...

[ChaosOS]

I feel like Brood War ended with a lot left unanswered, the discovery of the hybrids and Samir Duran were subject to rampant speculation all the way up to Heart of the Swarm release. The epilogue even references that Kerrigan withdrew her swarm in anticipation of some threat she could not see.

[Anxe]

I got my answers on that part from the Expanded Universe stuff. A lot of the Xel'naga reveal things that came out in Legacy of the Void were already said in the other material produced for Starcraft. This was just the first time it was in the actual video game.

[Almarck]

Just got through the new campaigns in about... 24 hours counting distractions and sleep. Oh man, gotta love that rush. Wonder how hard it'll be to do everything on Brutal.

So, was anyone else thinking that when they got access to the ship, that the third slot for special units would be reserved for Hybrid/Xel'Naga variants of the units? I know I was kinda surprised once the Purifier faction showed up.

[ChaosOS]

Yeah I was definitely expecting Xel'Naga upgrades similar to how Kerrigan got a third tree of abilities once she went through her primal zergification.

[Dienekes]

Just got through the new campaigns in about... 24 hours counting distractions and sleep. Oh man, gotta love that rush. Wonder how hard it'll be to do everything on Brutal.

So, was anyone else thinking that when they got access to the ship, that the third slot for special units would be reserved for Hybrid/Xel'Naga variants of the units? I know I was kinda surprised once the Purifier faction showed up.


Because the devs said in interviews how the game would be about balancing the expectations of factions and making choices on who you would use and side with in the game, I assumed that the third slot was going to be two factions that would be mutually exclusive. One of them would be the Tal'Darim that you could get to side with you, the other I thought was going to be some die-hard Protoss that refuse to work with the Tal'Darim.

Got one, at least.

One thing though, if they ever decide to go back to the SC universe we can all as a group finally move past the Raynor/Kerrigan romance. It's over. Finally.

[Almarck]

You know what I think the best thing about this expansion is that well likely see a carbot summation by Christmas.


If anyone doesn't know who that is, your life must be an empty shell

[Draken]

So. Finished the whole thing today and I can't help but ask.

What the hell Ouros.

These people (Zeratul and Artanis) basically WORSHIP YOU. They spent quite a long time LOOKING FOR YOU. Why did you think it would be better to APPEAR AS TASSADAR AND TALK CRYPTICALLY instead of APPEARING AS YOURSELF AND STILL TALKING CRYPTICALLY, but slightly less so?

[Anxe]

So. Finished the whole thing today and I can't help but ask.

What the hell Ouros.

These people (Zeratul and Artanis) basically WORSHIP YOU. They spent quite a long time LOOKING FOR YOU. Why did you think it would be better to APPEAR AS TASSADAR AND TALK CRYPTICALLY instead of APPEARING AS YOURSELF AND STILL TALKING CRYPTICALLY, but slightly less so?

They should have stated this in the campaign, but presumably it is close to impossible for Xel'naga to take physical form after they got locked in that Ulnar vault. Otherwise, why doesn't Amon take physical form and destroy everything in the universe? He needs that body made for him for some reason. Same thing for Ouros.

[Draken]

They should have stated this in the campaign, but presumably it is close to impossible for Xel'naga to take physical form after they got locked in that Ulnar vault. Otherwise, why doesn't Amon take physical form and destroy everything in the universe? He needs that body made for him for some reason. Same thing for Ouros.

I am talking about the contact Ouros made with Zeratul in Aiur, which we saw during WoL. Also the whole pretending to be Tassadar during the epilogue.

He didn't have to do those things. He clearly could contact Zeratul there and could have assumed his own image and explained more properly.

[Anxe]

I am talking about the contact Ouros made with Zeratul in Aiur, which we saw during WoL. Also the whole pretending to be Tassadar during the epilogue.

He didn't have to do those things. He clearly could contact Zeratul there and could have assumed his own image and explained more properly.

Oh... Maybe go with Tassadar because Raynor respects him more than Ouros? Tha'ts the only explanation I can come up with. Realistically, it's a story reason to save that reveal for a later time, but its true that it doesn't make sense within the universe.

[Dienekes]

I am talking about the contact Ouros made with Zeratul in Aiur, which we saw during WoL. Also the whole pretending to be Tassadar during the epilogue.

He didn't have to do those things. He clearly could contact Zeratul there and could have assumed his own image and explained more properly.

Yeah that whole thing reminded me of this: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=KZvrMFbBUcU

[Draconi Redfir]

still playing the epilouge, but this is bugging me so i need to say it.


Why do i need to help EVERYONE!? Kerrigan's currently getting supercharged with xel-naga powers, and we're defending her on three fronts, one faction, one front, right!? so why the hell do i need to divide up my forces and fight a war on all three fronts by sending reinforcements and aid to the other two factions!? they should be able to hold their own by now!:smallannoyed:

[Almarck]

So. Finished the whole thing today and I can't help but ask.

What the hell Ouros.

These people (Zeratul and Artanis) basically WORSHIP YOU. They spent quite a long time LOOKING FOR YOU. Why did you think it would be better to APPEAR AS TASSADAR AND TALK CRYPTICALLY instead of APPEARING AS YOURSELF AND STILL TALKING CRYPTICALLY, but slightly less so?

The real reason, out of character, is because people didn't like the idea of the Overmind having an ulterior motive and reacted badly about Tassadar leading Zeratul to that hunt.

As a result, Ouros exists to retcon a retcon. It's unsatisfactory as I was actually okay with that part. I would have thought it'd be awesome if Tassadar became Xel'Naga.




still playing the epilouge, but this is bugging me so i need to say it.


Why do i need to help EVERYONE!? Kerrigan's currently getting supercharged with xel-naga powers, and we're defending her on three fronts, one faction, one front, right!? so why the hell do i need to divide up my forces and fight a war on all three fronts by sending reinforcements and aid to the other two factions!? they should be able to hold their own by now!:smallannoyed:


Because the alternative would be that you'd have to Micromanage 3 bases. On Brutal, that'd be near impossible as you'd have to micromanage 3 seperate fronts, upgrade and build for 3 seperate factions. And if they wanted to make it have 3 separate supply limits, they would also need to make 3 seperate resource trackers. As someone who played through Warcraft 3: Frozen Throne, managing just two seperate factions like that is a brutal, brutal thing. And it'd be even worse on the hardest difficulty settings.

It's more sensible then to give each of them basic AIs. They have to ask for backup because that way you interact with them and they contribute to the fight. Basically, it's the same reasoning behind the final mission in Warcraft 3, Reign of Chaos.

Although, I think we can all agree it would be cool if Epilogue had a multiplayer option.

[Draconi Redfir]

Because the alternative would be that you'd have to Micromanage 3 bases. On Brutal, that'd be near impossible as you'd have to micromanage 3 seperate fronts, upgrade and build for 3 seperate factions. And if they wanted to make it have 3 separate supply limits, they would also need to make 3 seperate resource trackers. As someone who played through Warcraft 3: Frozen Throne, managing just two seperate factions like that is a brutal, brutal thing. And it'd be even worse on the hardest difficulty settings.

It's more sensible then to give each of them basic AIs. They have to ask for backup because that way you interact with them and they contribute to the fight. Basically, it's the same reasoning behind the final mission in Warcraft 3, Reign of Chaos.

Although, I think we can all agree it would be cool if Epilogue had a multiplayer option.



actually there is a much easier alternative: Don't give them **** A.I. Make them actually do their freaking job and defend against the hordes of enemies they said they would defend against, and stop relying on the player. Who is already fighting their own war (on TWO fronts compared to their one BTW) to keep splitting their forces to save the day. Like, just have them set up so that they have enough defences to take out most waves, have them improve and repair when necessary. to keep the player relevant i can see MAYBE sending in a few waves that they need help with? That way you can opt to either use Kerrigan at the price of pausing the timer, or divide your forces to help out. but there is certainly no rational reason as to why they need my help with EVERY FLIPPING WAVE right!? If they're not going to do anything they may as well not be there! just go away and leave the resources behind so i can at least have the funds to fight your damn three-front war!

It's really not that hard to do, just set them up so that the A.I.'s have the right amount of forces and intelligence to take on whatever's being thrown at them next. they don't need to be completely unharmed, they just need to do their job and hold their own. i don't care how determined your protoss are Artanis, there is no reason to have less then twenty units in existence at all times!

[Dienekes]

actually there is a much easier alternative: Don't give them **** A.I. Make them actually do their freaking job and defend against the hordes of enemies they said they would defend against, and stop relying on the player. Who is already fighting their own war (on TWO fronts compared to their one BTW) to keep splitting their forces to save the day. Like, just have them set up so that they have enough defences to take out most waves, have them improve and repair when necessary. to keep the player relevant i can see MAYBE sending in a few waves that they need help with? That way you can opt to either use Kerrigan at the price of pausing the timer, or divide your forces to help out. but there is certainly no rational reason as to why they need my help with EVERY FLIPPING WAVE right!? If they're not going to do anything they may as well not be there! just go away and leave the resources behind so i can at least have the funds to fight your damn three-front war!

It's really not that hard to do, just set them up so that the A.I.'s have the right amount of forces and intelligence to take on whatever's being thrown at them next. they don't need to be completely unharmed, they just need to do their job and hold their own. i don't care how determined your protoss are Artanis, there is no reason to have less then twenty units in existence at all times!

They do on easy and normal. At least I never helped them. I'm a **** Zerg player so I knocked my difficulty down for that mission

[Draconi Redfir]

Zerg? I was set up to play Tarren... Terran... Tarran... Terren...

Humans. i was set up to play the humans.

[Dienekes]

Zerg? I was set up to play Tarren... Terran... Tarran... Terren...

Humans. i was set up to play the humans.

Oh the second to last mission? I misunderstood. Huh. My Protoss and Zerg factions held for at least the first wave on Hard. A bit after that I had my siege tanks bunkers and supply depot wall off as fast as I could in every opening anyway so I don't know if they were all that useless since I would just win anyway.

[Artanis]

still playing the epilouge, but this is bugging me so i need to say it.


Why do i need to help EVERYONE!? Kerrigan's currently getting supercharged with xel-naga powers, and we're defending her on three fronts, one faction, one front, right!? so why the hell do i need to divide up my forces and fight a war on all three fronts by sending reinforcements and aid to the other two factions!? they should be able to hold their own by now!:smallannoyed:

The most annoying part of that for me was the Zerg front. I mean, at least I can build bunkers and stuff at the Protoss ramp, but all the f***ing creep means that I can't do that for Zagara

[Almarck]

The most annoying part of that for me was the Zerg front. I mean, at least I can build bunkers and stuff at the Protoss ramp, but all the f***ing creep means that I can't do that for Zagara

Yeah, well, that's probably the reasons Co-OP allows everyone to build on creep. Seriously, creep is the worst for team play. It also means the Zerg are harder to pull off certain things... like this....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0mPGYeuU2Oc

Can't do that on Creep, nope.

[Anxe]

Yeah that whole thing reminded me of this: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=KZvrMFbBUcU

Ungrateful little half-monkeys!

[Draconi Redfir]

so i just checked and confirmed my suspicions. Alarak is indeed voiced by John de Lancie.

i knew it had to be him, his voice was just too much like de Lancie's iconic tone.

[Artanis]

And Tassadar by Michael Dorn.

It's a regular TNG Reunion!

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Personally, this campaign is pissing me off, to the point that it might well be the very first Starcraft offering I have not played all the way through. The story is compelling, the mechanics are balls.

Their response to having HotS be 'A-click to victory'? Force time constraints and micro-managing multiple fronts on every freaking mission, it seems. And force rushes to net achievements on the race LEAST equipped for rushing and quipped and prepared position.

This is exactly the sort of mission I least enjoy... and it seems to be the only damn type of mission they have.

[Artanis]

Time constraints?

Most of the non-achievement "time constraints" are giant monsters that you just bludgeon into submission while getting on with your life.

[Almarck]

Personally, this campaign is pissing me off, to the point that it might well be the very first Starcraft offering I have not played all the way through. The story is compelling, the mechanics are balls.

Their response to having HotS be 'A-click to victory'? Force time constraints and micro-managing multiple fronts on every freaking mission, it seems. And force rushes to net achievements on the race LEAST equipped for rushing and quipped and prepared position.

This is exactly the sort of mission I least enjoy... and it seems to be the only damn type of mission they have.

... I actually use a single giant A-move Deathball in the campaign on Brutal (halfway through) They're pretty darn effective, but you need to use Save Scumming if you want to succeed on Brutal. Granted, that's how it is on any Brutal Mission. On normal, the same strategies I employ lead to easy victories. And it gets even easier as you progress. I do very little micro, just macro things up and steamroll.

I literally just enable warpgates on everything and spam Gateway units backed up by Immortals. 2 Robotics, 4 Gates. Put supply and pylons in strategic locations. There's a few missions that this won't work on, but those are few and far between.

It's made even easier when you stack in Dark Templar with their upgrades to Alpha Strike any land forces into submission, that upgraded Immortals can soak 300 damage before dying and have stupidly powerful guns, and that Sentinel Zealots rebuild themselves every 60 seconds. There's also the Energizer Sentry, which basically puts haste on EVERYTHING for cheap. And when you unlock Void Rays with RANGE 9...

Very few missions have time constraints and they're usually about 30-40 minutes long. Although you are most likely referring to all the mechanics in some missions to encourage being proactive with your army.

All you gotta do is build up and when you're ready, attack one objective. Then build up again. It's like how it was in WoL, the dressing is just different.

[Draconi Redfir]

Time constraints?

Most of the non-achievement "time constraints" are giant monsters that you just bludgeon into submission while getting on with your life.

there is one mission where you need to escort this giant automatic ship that's activating some beacons or something, and you don't really get any control of the thing, and the areas you need to escort it through are infested with zerg, wich kill off a lot of your fources (at least in my hard mode run, wich is so far the only one i've done.)

It wouldn't be a problem if the dang thing would just hold still for a minute or two to let you rebuild your forces, but nope, it almost never stops moving, and the time it does stop moving isn't enough to get more then three to five units warped in at best, and certainly not any vehicles.

There have also been multiple instances where the game just wouldn't let me build, i'd have a defence up, get attacked, start repairing the damage, only to get attacked immidiately again, leaving me no time to build any units or structures as anything i do make just gets destroyed. Would be really nice if there was a way to stop all enemy movements and progress timers so you could just have a minute or two to breathe and regroup. yes there is that one ability you can get endgame for the spear of adune, but that only lasts twenty secconds, whereas i'm thinking a cheat code or command that pauses all time other then your own units for multiple minutes, and makes everything unkillable while pused so you can't just blow through the enemy bases.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

One powerful combination I have discovered:
First off, you take the warp-in options for your mech units, which also reduces cooldown on warped in units. Then you use the Sentry version with the haste and the ability to project power. Warp-ins anywhere you want, in the middle of combat, while your units are still getting hasted. Beats calling in an almost uselessly small squad and saves you 50 Solarium in the bargain. Warp in immortals, warp in void rays, warp in anything you want.

Failing that, use your Spear of Adun ability to warp in a pylon wherever you like. Sure, it's a bit expensive on the energy, but you need the warp-in creep. In fact, I'm starting to treat power coverage much like creep coverage when playing as Zerg... you want to have as much of the map able to be warped in as possible.

This, of course, assumes you have the money and the buildings to pull it off. Which is far from certain in most cases.

Also, you can't afford to send your units off in penny-packets. Marines can take care of themselves in packs of six against most things you run into in the Terran campaign. 'Lings are so dang cheap you can afford to lose them by the dozens and shrug off the loss. Depending on your heroic abilities, they might well come back all on their own. But 'Toss don't have any easily expendable scouts, nor do they have any other methods of scouting readily available to them like the comsat. Which means you are very frequently running blinder than you were in the previous campaigns.

Also, 'Toss units are expensive, meaning you can't just afford to lose them. Seriously, there's no combat unit that costs less than 100 resource, most of 'em weigh in on the 200-250ish range. Losing fighters from your main force is pretty huge. You also need a LOT more in the way of supply lines to compensate for the additional expense.

[Almarck]

One powerful combination I have discovered:
First off, you take the warp-in options for your mech units, which also reduces cooldown on warped in units. Then you use the Sentry version with the haste and the ability to project power. Warp-ins anywhere you want, in the middle of combat, while your units are still getting hasted. Beats calling in an almost uselessly small squad and saves you 50 Solarium in the bargain. Warp in immortals, warp in void rays, warp in anything you want.

Failing that, use your Spear of Adun ability to warp in a pylon wherever you like. Sure, it's a bit expensive on the energy, but you need the warp-in creep. In fact, I'm starting to treat power coverage much like creep coverage when playing as Zerg... you want to have as much of the map able to be warped in as possible.

This, of course, assumes you have the money and the buildings to pull it off. Which is far from certain in most cases.

Also, you can't afford to send your units off in penny-packets. Marines can take care of themselves in packs of six against most things you run into in the Terran campaign. 'Lings are so dang cheap you can afford to lose them by the dozens and shrug off the loss. Depending on your heroic abilities, they might well come back all on their own. But 'Toss don't have any easily expendable scouts, nor do they have any other methods of scouting readily available to them like the comsat. Which means you are very frequently running blinder than you were in the previous campaigns.

Also, 'Toss units are expensive, meaning you can't just afford to lose them. Seriously, there's no combat unit that costs less than 100 resource, most of 'em weigh in on the 200-250ish range. Losing fighters from your main force is pretty huge. You also need a LOT more in the way of supply lines to compensate for the additional expense.

What difficulty are you on? I assumed normal earlier, but that might just be because I assumed everyone starts playing on normal their first time around.

I mean, your experiance with the game is vastly different than mine as, well, I didn't encounter problems like that. But I played on normal so I could unlock the masters archive for brutal mode

[Legoshrimp]

I have been playing on brutal, and everything except the last mission has been fairly easy. The last mission I got frustrated and switched to normal :smalltongue: I think I have been mostly failing the defend multiple fronts. I think I played the second mission of the epilogue on normal as well. But that was mostly because I got super frustrated at getting stomped 2-3 times on brutal. Going HOW IS IT POSSIBLE TO WIN THIS. Then a bit into playing on normal I realized I can control kerrigan to kill things :P Which makes it possible on brutal I think :smalltongue:
Next step is to finish the epilogue and replay the 2 missions I haven't beaten on brutal. Then onto coop I think, or maybe general multiplayer.

[Requizen]

I have been playing on brutal, and everything except the last mission has been fairly easy. The last mission I got frustrated and switched to normal :smalltongue: I think I have been mostly failing the defend multiple fronts. I think I played the second mission of the epilogue on normal as well. But that was mostly because I got super frustrated at getting stomped 2-3 times on brutal. Going HOW IS IT POSSIBLE TO WIN THIS. Then a bit into playing on normal I realized I can control kerrigan to kill things :P Which makes it possible on brutal I think :smalltongue:
Next step is to finish the epilogue and replay the 2 missions I haven't beaten on brutal. Then onto coop I think, or maybe general multiplayer.

Yeah, that mission is by and far the hardest one in the game imo. There were a couple that were annoying, but it's just straight rough.

The best way I found was to just Siege up at all 4 ramps and put Bunkers at the Protoss base. The Zerg base seems to need a lot less help than the Protoss one, at least in my playthrough (I don't know if your upgrade choices from the previous campaigns affect the allied bases). Use Mercs as much as possible, they're pretty OP, especially the Siege Tank and BC ones. And then just SCV the hell out of them so you can Repair as much as possible.

After it gets to about 70% and things start coming harder and faster, you should be maxed out if you're good on macro. Then, just start filling every single possible open space with buildings. I had the Bunkers with auto-turrets, again not sure if that's in all or just from my Terran choices in WoL. Your lines are going to break. But, if you can make them chew through a massive amount of buildings that are being repaired and shooting back, Kerrigan should survive until she can finish.

Also, only use her power on the big things. BCs, Carriers, Guardians, Thors, Colossi, Archons, and Ultras. And, of course, the Thrashers. And you can even skip BCs and Ultras if you have a good enough setup. I tried to use it a lot to give myself a break in the early stages, but it ended up biting me in the butt when it came to closing out.

[Draken]

I have been playing on brutal, and everything except the last mission has been fairly easy. The last mission I got frustrated and switched to normal :smalltongue: I think I have been mostly failing the defend multiple fronts. I think I played the second mission of the epilogue on normal as well. But that was mostly because I got super frustrated at getting stomped 2-3 times on brutal. Going HOW IS IT POSSIBLE TO WIN THIS. Then a bit into playing on normal I realized I can control kerrigan to kill things :P Which makes it possible on brutal I think :smalltongue:
Next step is to finish the epilogue and replay the 2 missions I haven't beaten on brutal. Then onto coop I think, or maybe general multiplayer.

I only played that mission on normal, but it felt like banging my head against a wall for all the very long time I spent trying to finish it with Kerrigan and ground support.

It changed very suddenly when I simply swapped to the tried and true strategy of massing mutalisks.

[ChaosOS]

I only played that mission on normal, but it felt like banging my head against a wall for all the very long time I spent trying to finish it with Kerrigan and ground support.

It changed very suddenly when I simply swapped to the tried and true strategy of massing mutalisks.

You sure you have the mission right? Mission 1 is playing protoss vs. Narud, Mission 2 is a terran hold out with Kerrigan as a laser drill, mission 3 is zerg with Xel'Naga Kerrigan rampaging to kill the stones protecting Amon

[Draconi Redfir]

Yeah, that mission is by and far the hardest one in the game imo. There were a couple that were annoying, but it's just straight rough.

The Zerg base seems to need a lot less help than the Protoss one,.

There's a reason for that. The Zerg actually understand that six units is nowhere near enough so they made more then that. Still not enough to do their own job, but jeez Artanis get your ship together :smallannoyed:



It's just... urgh, why do i freaking need to babysit two seperate bases!? It just doesn't make sense! we all know they CAN hold their own, but they're not! they're just using up resources and whining to you whenever something bigger then their six freaking units show up!

i'm seriously considering just landing a command center in the protoss base and murdering all their probes so i can harvest their minerals myself. if i'm going to do their job for them i may as well have the resources to frikkin do it right? :smallannoyed:

[Legoshrimp]

There's a reason for that. The Zerg actually understand that six units is nowhere near enough so they made more then that. Still not enough to do their own job, but jeez Artanis get your ship together :smallannoyed:



It's just... urgh, why do i freaking need to babysit two seperate bases!? It just doesn't make sense! we all know they CAN hold their own, but they're not! they're just using up resources and whining to you whenever something bigger then their six freaking units show up!

i'm seriously considering just landing a command center in the protoss base and murdering all their probes so i can harvest their minerals myself. if i'm going to do their job for them i may as well have the resources to frikkin do it right? :smallannoyed:

That probably wouldn't end up helping, you can get to max pop fairly easily on two bases :P
Also on why, the mission would be pretty boring if you could ignore the other bases. Defending 2 chokepoints as terran would be really easy.
Well now I just need beat the final mission on brutal. The second epilogue mission ended up being build a billion tanks, + use kerrigan to kill flying things and collosi + save scum :P The final mission took a bit since I tried to do a more mixed strategy, but just roach+hydra+some mutas at the end+ somewhat less save scumming :P was able to end it.
Also I techinically need to replay the prologue since the achievements didn't exist?/carry over from before release. Then I probably won't bother trying for 100% achievements complete, mp/coop will probably be more fun then that :P

[Draken]

You sure you have the mission right? Mission 1 is playing protoss vs. Narud, Mission 2 is a terran hold out with Kerrigan as a laser drill, mission 3 is zerg with Xel'Naga Kerrigan rampaging to kill the stones protecting Amon

Ops. You are right, I got the missions wrong.

But yes, mission two is rather annoying, on grounds of Zagara and Artanis being so useless there.

On the winning try I gave it, I ended up losing Zagara because of the whole 'can't build on creep" stuff, but by then I just had the ramp to Kerrigan beind two layers of wall-off and a minefield.

Artanis side held by bunkers upon bunkers.

[Draconi Redfir]

That probably wouldn't end up helping, you can get to max pop fairly easily on two bases :P
Also on why, the mission would be pretty boring if you could ignore the other bases. Defending 2 chokepoints as terran would be really easy.


Okay yeah, so that's why instead of having them be completely incompitent at their own jobs and make them whine for help with every single wave, you make them compitent enough to handle most of the waves, but every so often a wave will come for them that they can't handle alone. Maybe some hybrid show up or something and the protoss can't handle them alone, so they ask you for help. And then maybe a recreation of the golden armada shows up for the zerg, so they ask for help with that.

Hell make go both ways and take a hint from the mission immidiately before this one. Artanis needs help? He asks you for help, but the Zerg also send in some support. Something coming your way that you might need help with? Both the zerg and the protoss send you a few units to help you out, either as NPC's or under your control, who knows? They have warp gates and nidus worms, so it'd be quick and easy to get some units to the front lines there.

By all means have them ask for help from time to time, but key words here: Time. To. time. There is no reason why they should need help with every single wave, they should be capable of doing a majority of their jobs on their own.

[Olinser]

That probably wouldn't end up helping, you can get to max pop fairly easily on two bases :P
Also on why, the mission would be pretty boring if you could ignore the other bases. Defending 2 chokepoints as terran would be really easy.
Well now I just need beat the final mission on brutal. The second epilogue mission ended up being build a billion tanks, + use kerrigan to kill flying things and collosi + save scum :P The final mission took a bit since I tried to do a more mixed strategy, but just roach+hydra+some mutas at the end+ somewhat less save scumming :P was able to end it.
Also I techinically need to replay the prologue since the achievements didn't exist?/carry over from before release. Then I probably won't bother trying for 100% achievements complete, mp/coop will probably be more fun then that :P

2nd to last mission becomes a lot easier when you realize you can que up Kerrigan attacks so there is no downtime between shots. When a wave approaches just kill the big units (ultralisk, thor, archon, siege tanks) and let the base deal with the small fry, if you are going to use Kerrigan do it in one big sweep and let her go back to charging, if you try to micromanage her only killing a couple at a time you'll lose significantly more time because there's a lag between her shooting and starting to charge again.

First time I played it on Normal I didn't even put units in the Zerg base until the very final wave when I bought the merc valks and banshees (and that was it), Kerrigan alone was enough to defend it until all the way until then. On Brutal it gets harder but again, queing up attacks only puts her out of charge for about 10 seconds or so per wave, just snipe out the big ones.

Broodlords make the last mission laughably easy, as is standard for Broodlords because the lings drive the enemy AI absolutely crazy. Just park Kerrigan below the pack and chain cast AOE heal, Kerrigan AA slaughters any air units they try to use and a pack of 10-15 broodlords crushes the base. If you absolutely have to teleport the pack back to your base to defend, but if you save Extinction to coincide with enemy attacks you shouldn't even need to do that. Pretty much shouldn't even lose 1 the whole time.

[Almarck]

So, I just realized something... unless I am totally missing something.


One of the benefits of the Khala was that it prevented Zerg infestation. Was this because infestation in of it self is one of the steps neccesary to create a Xel'Naga, given Kerrigan was more or less a powerful psychic at the time of being enlisted in the Ghost Program? Then again, Kerrigan was deinfested and then uplifted into a Primal Zerg, so perhaps that step was also neccesary.

Amon perhaps delibrately designed that aspect of the Khala in order to prevent someone else from uplifting into a Xel'Naga or gaining the means to stand up against his Hybrid.

Also, with out the Khala, does this mean that in the future we'll see infested protoss?

[Icewraith]

Anyone been messing around with the co-op missions? At first I thought the 100 supply limit on Zagara was ludicrously bad, but after a few levels I have revised that opinion.

[Legoshrimp]

So finished everything on brutal!
The last two epilogue missions ended up being not that bad.
And the final mission was fairly easy, skytoss+cannon spam op.

[Draken]

Anyone been messing around with the co-op missions? At first I thought the 100 supply limit on Zagara was ludicrously bad, but after a few levels I have revised that opinion.

Lings everywhere, scourge for all your sky issues.

Zagara is fun. Solve all your problems by burning resources at it.

[Draconi Redfir]

So, I just realized something... unless I am totally missing something.


One of the benefits of the Khala was that it prevented Zerg infestation. Was this because infestation in of it self is one of the steps neccesary to create a Xel'Naga, given Kerrigan was more or less a powerful psychic at the time of being enlisted in the Ghost Program? Then again, Kerrigan was deinfested and then uplifted into a Primal Zerg, so perhaps that step was also neccesary.

Amon perhaps delibrately designed that aspect of the Khala in order to prevent someone else from uplifting into a Xel'Naga or gaining the means to stand up against his Hybrid.

Also, with out the Khala, does this mean that in the future we'll see infested protoss?




I rather doubt it. i think the protoss are uninfestable as a result of their biology, not the kala. Keep in mind that there has never been an infested protoss in the history of ever, whereas there are at least two large Protoss tribes (Dark templar and taldarim) that don't have the kalah. either through ritual removal of it, or never having it to begin with.


So i finally sucked up my pride and cradled the widdle babies that are artanis and zagara. no i won't forgive them for that, but reguardless we still survived the mission with everyone intact. Not sure why Artanis avoided making colossi until near the end of the game, and even then only had like two of them but... that's the a.i. for you.

so far only played the final mission once, managed to get three or four of the seven crystals down. Was not expecting Amon to start destroying crystal hubs. that's clever. but dear god those laser-pillars he drops to defend his crystals are annoying. as well as the huge and apparently unstopable ammount of void forces. i think you can delay them for a bit by destroying the void rift things, but they open up again after a time, so idk what to do about it.

[Olinser]

I rather doubt it. i think the protoss are uninfestable as a result of their biology, not the kala. Keep in mind that there has never been an infested protoss in the history of ever, whereas there are at least two large Protoss tribes (Dark templar and taldarim) that don't have the kalah. either through ritual removal of it, or never having it to begin with.


So i finally sucked up my pride and cradled the widdle babies that are artanis and zagara. no i won't forgive them for that, but reguardless we still survived the mission with everyone intact. Not sure why Artanis avoided making colossi until near the end of the game, and even then only had like two of them but... that's the a.i. for you.

so far only played the final mission once, managed to get three or four of the seven crystals down. Was not expecting Amon to start destroying crystal hubs. that's clever. but dear god those laser-pillars he drops to defend his crystals are annoying. as well as the huge and apparently unstopable ammount of void forces. i think you can delay them for a bit by destroying the void rift things, but they open up again after a time, so idk what to do about it.

If you're playing on normal Kerrigan can solo the first 3-5 crystals. Her heal is stupid OP, affects both of your allies, and it only takes 2 Q shots to destroy a pillar. Even with the paltry forces that your allies send Kerrigan spamming heal just crushes it. First time I did it I waited quite a while before actually taking out any of the structures and was just shocked at how badly she mowed down everything alone.

When I went back and re-did it on normal I actually hit every single crystal that spawned with just Kerrigan initially and beat it before Amon actually got rid of my first crystal hub. Rushed Broodlords and didn't even use another unit in an attack until the 4th crystal and I had some lords.

For the first couple crystals just put Kerrigan in the middle of whatever force the allies send and spam heal and an occasional Q, then just get a pack of Broodlords and have Kerrigan sit under them spamming heal.

[Draconi Redfir]

So just finished the epilogue. and final thoughts:


1. Kind of disappointed that Kerrigan didn't turn into a giant squid monster like all the other Zel'naga. what makes her so special?
2. WTF? She's just... back as a human now? Isn't she supposed to be continuing the cycle and creating new life across the universes to repopulate the xel naga or something???
3. WHERE THE F**** WAS BROODMOTHER NIADRA!? she was the biggest thing i was looking forward too here! hers was my favourite mission in heart of the swarm and i was SO looking forward to seeing her and her swarm again! *Sigh* back to the headcannon that life on a slower-then-light ship with limited biomass just radically changes them through feeding on eachother and developing their own ecosystem to the point of being radically different from the rest of the swarm when they finally do land or get discovered again, likely still with the "kill all protoss" mindset.

still, kinda doubt there will be any more starcraft after this, seems to me like the whole story has been wrapped up pretty well in my opinion. amon is dead, Kerrigan is apparently a xel naga, the protoss have their homeworld back, and so far at least it seems the three species have a relative peace between them.

oh! and 4 i guess.

From the Uranos (oranos?) the xe;-naga "homeworld" mission where you control both Kerrigan and Artanis, the dialouge of the constructs and the visions hinted to me that purity of form and purity of essence (protoss and zerg, i.e. artanas and Kerrigan) had to merge together in order to become a xel'naga, purity of form AND essence in one being. i'm... going to guess that's how it typically works out, powerful members of each race merge together and become a new xel'naga on their own without needing to drain/kill an existing one for their essence. I'm going to assume Kerrigan only got that other guy's essence because it was faster or adding his power to her own made her stronger then amon or something, idk. Not merging with a powerful protoss might also be why she didn't transform into a giant squid monster i guess.

Suppose Amon's influence on the zerg and protoss might also have resulted in them not merging, possibly due to the zerg not being able to infest the protoss? maybe that was intentional on Amon's behalf? Who knows.

Think that's it now. so ye.

[Draken]

So just finished the epilogue. and final thoughts:


1. Kind of disappointed that Kerrigan didn't turn into a giant squid monster like all the other Zel'naga. what makes her so special?
2. WTF? She's just... back as a human now? Isn't she supposed to be continuing the cycle and creating new life across the universes to repopulate the xel naga or something???
3. WHERE THE F**** WAS BROODMOTHER NIADRA!? she was the biggest thing i was looking forward too here! hers was my favourite mission in heart of the swarm and i was SO looking forward to seeing her and her swarm again! *Sigh* back to the headcannon that life on a slower-then-light ship with limited biomass just radically changes them through feeding on eachother and developing their own ecosystem to the point of being radically different from the rest of the swarm when they finally do land or get discovered again, likely still with the "kill all protoss" mindset.

still, kinda doubt there will be any more starcraft after this, seems to me like the whole story has been wrapped up pretty well in my opinion. amon is dead, Kerrigan is apparently a xel naga, the protoss have their homeworld back, and so far at least it seems the three species have a relative peace between them.

oh! and 4 i guess.

From the Uranos (oranos?) the xe;-naga "homeworld" mission where you control both Kerrigan and Artanis, the dialouge of the constructs and the visions hinted to me that purity of form and purity of essence (protoss and zerg, i.e. artanas and Kerrigan) had to merge together in order to become a xel'naga, purity of form AND essence in one being. i'm... going to guess that's how it typically works out, powerful members of each race merge together and become a new xel'naga on their own without needing to drain/kill an existing one for their essence. I'm going to assume Kerrigan only got that other guy's essence because it was faster or adding his power to her own made her stronger then amon or something, idk. Not merging with a powerful protoss might also be why she didn't transform into a giant squid monster i guess.

Suppose Amon's influence on the zerg and protoss might also have resulted in them not merging, possibly due to the zerg not being able to infest the protoss? maybe that was intentional on Amon's behalf? Who knows.

Think that's it now. so ye.

The proper explanation for Purity of Form/Essence was given elsewhere. Don't recall precisely where now.

Purity of Essence is described as "the potential for great/limitless change".

Purity of Form is actually a capacity to generate vast psionic power and thus house the essence of a Xel'Naga. Kerrigan has this as a human, since she is one of the (if not The) mightiest psionic entities in the Koprulu sector.

As for giant squid monster-hood, honestly I think that is more a trait of the race/s that became the previous generation of Xel'Naga than an immutable trait of the Xel'Naga themselves. Kind of nonsensical for something that is defined by its potential for immense physical change to be limited in what its default shape would be over the course of infinite cycles.

-----

And on the matter of "wrapped up" the only thing really wrapped up is the matter of Raynor and Kerrigan's romance.

After all is said and done, Alarak breaks away from the Daelaam and strikes out on his own, allowing his Tal'Darim one chance to stick to the Daelaam if they wish to. Lets be reasonable here, Darth Shoulderpads was Artanis' token evil teammate.

Zagara rules the swarm. She probably has some healthy respect for Artanis and Raynor for helping Kerrigan become a goddess, but the first thing she does is take over a section of the Koprulo Sector around Char for her swarm, she is not nice and peaceful and whatever. Probably not overly hostile because she has this personal preference for Deathworlds and is thus unlikely to come into MUCH conflict with the other nations that prefer planets that are not actively out to kill you.

Niadra is out there.

Earth is out there.

Heck, the humans of the Koprulu sector are still split between three nations, if I recall correctly. The Dominion, the Umojans and the other group whose name I forgot.

We can probably expect a StarCraft III in a decade or two.

[Almarck]

It's worth mentioning Blizzard plans to release DLC campaigns much as they had for Uzelraj and all the stuff involving Stuvok about what happened at the end of Brood War.

Our first bonus campaign is apparently about Nova and is supposed to be released some time in January. But Blizzard time is almost as slow as Valve time so...

It's most likely other loose ends left over from the campaign are left so that they will show up in bonus campaigns, books, or whatever Blizzard wants later. If you played Warcraft III, you see a similar pattern involving the Forsaken mini campaign that got explored in WoW, the Naga were hardly explored but they get a whole area devoted to them in Cataclysm, and your stint in Outland became only the tip of the iceberg and so on and so forth.

Xel Naga are shapeshifters as evidenced by Narud/Duran. Honestly, Kerrigan can appear in whatever form she wants. If she wanted to appear as her old human identity, she has the means to do so.

[Olinser]

So just finished the epilogue. and final thoughts:


1. Kind of disappointed that Kerrigan didn't turn into a giant squid monster like all the other Zel'naga. what makes her so special?
2. WTF? She's just... back as a human now? Isn't she supposed to be continuing the cycle and creating new life across the universes to repopulate the xel naga or something???
3. WHERE THE F**** WAS BROODMOTHER NIADRA!? she was the biggest thing i was looking forward too here! hers was my favourite mission in heart of the swarm and i was SO looking forward to seeing her and her swarm again! *Sigh* back to the headcannon that life on a slower-then-light ship with limited biomass just radically changes them through feeding on eachother and developing their own ecosystem to the point of being radically different from the rest of the swarm when they finally do land or get discovered again, likely still with the "kill all protoss" mindset.

still, kinda doubt there will be any more starcraft after this, seems to me like the whole story has been wrapped up pretty well in my opinion. amon is dead, Kerrigan is apparently a xel naga, the protoss have their homeworld back, and so far at least it seems the three species have a relative peace between them.

oh! and 4 i guess.

From the Uranos (oranos?) the xe;-naga "homeworld" mission where you control both Kerrigan and Artanis, the dialouge of the constructs and the visions hinted to me that purity of form and purity of essence (protoss and zerg, i.e. artanas and Kerrigan) had to merge together in order to become a xel'naga, purity of form AND essence in one being. i'm... going to guess that's how it typically works out, powerful members of each race merge together and become a new xel'naga on their own without needing to drain/kill an existing one for their essence. I'm going to assume Kerrigan only got that other guy's essence because it was faster or adding his power to her own made her stronger then amon or something, idk. Not merging with a powerful protoss might also be why she didn't transform into a giant squid monster i guess.

Suppose Amon's influence on the zerg and protoss might also have resulted in them not merging, possibly due to the zerg not being able to infest the protoss? maybe that was intentional on Amon's behalf? Who knows.

Think that's it now. so ye.



1) She might actually be a giant squid monster and she's just appearing human to Raynor. I mean she's basically a god now, a surface illusion shouldn't be too hard to maintain.

Alternately, the Xel'Naga didn't change form when they ascended, they just always looked like that.

2) Nah. She just stopped to pick up Raynor. Did you miss the part in the 'where are they now' at the end where suddenly a whole bunch of barren worlds started developing life? That was obviously her.

3) Uhm... considering Kerrigan herself only got like 5 minutes of screentime before the epilogue, I'm not really surprised nobody but Zagara was even mentioned. On the Terran side Valerian and Horner barely got cameos while Rory, Egon and Warfield weren't mentioned at all.

4) Infestation is the zerg overpowering and absorbing the host, not a merging. They are both the pinnacle of pure being (Zerg being form and Protoss being essence). The Protoss are immune to infestation because they occupy the same 'tier' of purity, if you will. The Hybrids are actual merged beings, not infested Protoss, but the process is done forcibly and corrupted by the Void, so they are significantly less powerful than true Xel'Naga.

Also, I wouldn't necessarily say that StarCraft is over. Even in the current crop all 3 races are still there with potential antagonists. The Zerg in general are still a ravenous horde of alien locusts, and Zagara is definitely no Overmind or Queen of Blades, she could be deposed easily. From the Protoss side Alarak picked up his horde of followers and shuffled off, he could easily come back. Terrans of course are in constant conflict - remember, Mengsk's rebellion and ambition were in place even before the Zerg showed up, humans more than anybody has to potential for backstabbing, betrayal and all out war.

And that's even before you think about the fact that this entire story across both games took place in a very small sector of space. The UED is still out there and you could easily go to another sector in the galaxy.

If Blizzard wants to make another StarCraft they could do it easily.

[Draconi Redfir]

okay, fair point about the zerg unable to infest protoss thing. Still think that tradtionally at least, were this universe "normal" by xel naga standards, a powerful zerg and a powerful protoss would have had to come together and merge into a single xel'naga, the entire mission with kerrigan and artanis just screamed that at me, and i'm honestly surprised they didn't go with it. So again i'm assuming that errigan absorbing the essence of a pre-existing xel'naga was a very abnormal form of ascension. Maybe she needed the full power of a xel'naga immidiately but becoming one naturally takes time and learning to get all that power.

[Almarck]

okay, fair point about the zerg unable to infest protoss thing. Still think that tradtionally at least, were this universe "normal" by xel naga standards, a powerful zerg and a powerful protoss would have had to come together and merge into a single xel'naga, the entire mission with kerrigan and artanis just screamed that at me, and i'm honestly surprised they didn't go with it. So again i'm assuming that errigan absorbing the essence of a pre-existing xel'naga was a very abnormal form of ascension. Maybe she needed the full power of a xel'naga immidiately but becoming one naturally takes time and learning to get all that power.

Personally, I thought it would have been kinda poetic if Tassadar fused with the Overmind instead of killing each other. I was kinda disappointed they retconned Tassadar being possibly made immortal/void based. It would have been cool to have an original Protoss character show up again. I guess we could settle for Fenix/Talendar.

And likely, the reason they didn't go with it is likely the confusion that could result over who is incontrol or what the resulting composite being would be like. Perhaps it was the same reason the Tassadar/Aldaris Archon was never used in the campaign. You can see they had something planned for in the SCI editor, but it never manifested for some reason.

[Draconi Redfir]

ehh, they could probably have easily taken the steven universe route to fusion; Where the resulting composite is it's own seperate personality as opposed to two individuals controling the same body. A+B = C as opposed to A + B = AB and all that.

[Macros]

Finished the game recently.

I won't lie, I'm a bit disapointed by the epilogue. It feels... I don't know, a bit rushed? Not to mention "Kerrigan ascends and fixes all our problems" felt rather cheap. All in all, I can't really point out one specific thing that annoys me, but the big picture left me dubious. Still, most of the campaign was really entertaining (it helps that I rather enjoy playing Protoss, of course).

[VoxRationis]

Finished the game recently.

I won't lie, I'm a bit disapointed by the epilogue. It feels... I don't know, a bit rushed? Not to mention "Kerrigan ascends and fixes all our problems" felt rather cheap. All in all, I can't really point out one specific thing that annoys me, but the big picture left me dubious. Still, most of the campaign was really entertaining (it helps that I rather enjoy playing Protoss, of course).

Well, all in all, the epilogue doesn't feel like Starcraft, in my opinion. It feels almost like Kingdom Hearts (the later levels, obviously). As for the main campaign, I really have to wonder why the guys at Blizzard hate the Protoss so darn much. So. Darn. Much. They love taking things away from the Protoss, and rarely do they ever get to win.
I mean, they end up trading Shakuras for Aiur, which is great from a cultural standpoint, I guess, but they had more usable infrastructure and whatnot on Shakuras by that point. At best, that's a wash, and it came at the cost of a bunch of Templar lives. They also lost most of the Golden Armada (we didn't even get to use it in ONE scenario, after it being built up all through HotS!). More to the point, they lost the Khala. More than saying "Aiur" in every sentence, that's what really defines the Protoss. Now they're just Terrans without mouths. Heck, half of their tech and units don't really make sense without the Khala backing them up.
This is even shown in multiplayer. The guys at Blizzard so much love the idea of the Protoss valiantly fighting but inevitably losing, bit by bit, that they gave the Terrans a mass-producable flying siege tank to make sure that gradual loss of ground is a theme in TvP.

[Macros]

Well, now that I had a bit more time to ponderate on the ending, I think I can talk a bit more about it.



First, I don't think that, taken separately, any particular point is particularly shocking. I was not a fan of Kerrigan's sudden deification, but it wasn't coming from nowhere, and that twist ws rather expected. Duran's return is a bit random, but, here again, not implausible. Even the rush into a parrallell dimension for the final battle made me shrug and go all "sure, why not?".

But I feel there's two things that make the conclusion rather weak. First, there's no real tension in it. You had an emotionnal climax with the final battle on Aiur, starting with awesome speeches and culminating with Amon getting nuked from orbit (which is arguably the best way to say "screw you" to someone), and then, when you go to help follow Kerrigan to end things, it feels rather like a clean-up operation to neatly tie-up things. There's no real tension or urgency in those missions, it's just something you do to get a bit of closure. Heck, you even get the feeling that failure wouldn't be so bad : the big bad is stuck in his hole for at least a few centuries anyway, so if things go badly the first time, you might just as well pull out and come back at a later date. To make an analogy with the Lord of the Rings, this isn't the grand stand against Evil culminating in the destruction of the Ring. It's more akin to dealing with that pest Saruman who's not really a threat anymore, but spoils the general mood.

The second thing is that, somewhere along the way, I fell like we lost the "three races uniting against Evil" theme, to be replaced to "let's finish that SarahxJim love story". Honestly, at no point did I get the feeling the Terrans and Protoss were actually needed there, you could just have Kerrigan going in alone, and, from a narrative perspective there would have been no difference. The foreshadowing of the necessity of uniting Protoss and Zerg to end the threat ended becoming "oh, actually, we just needed that zerg/terran hybrid, the rest of you guys are pretty much irrelevant, sorry for bothering you" (which is even stranger when you consider that Xel'Naga seemed rather insistant on bringing the Protoss here, going as far as tricking them into thinking he was Tassadar's ghost). So instead you have Kerrigan ascending and a bittersweet ending of her romance with Raynor.

It could have worked. At the end of a Terran or a Zerg campaign.

But, it comes at the end of the Protoss campaign, where both characters had maybe ten minutes of screen-time. You spent the previous hours getting invested in Artanis journey, in 'Fenix''s character exploration, in Rohana's mental struggles, into the various history of the Protoss factions and their struggle to reclaim their homeworld... and then the ending comes and announce "and now, for something completely different...". The timing is terrible.

[Mr.Moron]

Well, now that I had a bit more time to ponderate on the ending, I think I can talk a bit more about it.



First, I don't think that, taken separately, any particular point is particularly shocking. I was not a fan of Kerrigan's sudden deification, but it wasn't coming from nowhere, and that twist ws rather expected. Duran's return is a bit random, but, here again, not implausible. Even the rush into a parrallell dimension for the final battle made me shrug and go all "sure, why not?".

But I feel there's two things that make the conclusion rather weak. First, there's no real tension in it. You had an emotionnal climax with the final battle on Aiur, starting with awesome speeches and culminating with Amon getting nuked from orbit (which is arguably the best way to say "screw you" to someone), and then, when you go to help follow Kerrigan to end things, it feels rather like a clean-up operation to neatly tie-up things. There's no real tension or urgency in those missions, it's just something you do to get a bit of closure. Heck, you even get the feeling that failure wouldn't be so bad : the big bad is stuck in his hole for at least a few centuries anyway, so if things go badly the first time, you might just as well pull out and come back at a later date. To make an analogy with the Lord of the Rings, this isn't the grand stand against Evil culminating in the destruction of the Ring. It's more akin to dealing with that pest Saruman who's not really a threat anymore, but spoils the general mood.

The second thing is that, somewhere along the way, I fell like we lost the "three races uniting against Evil" theme, to be replaced to "let's finish that SarahxJim love story". Honestly, at no point did I get the feeling the Terrans and Protoss were actually needed there, you could just have Kerrigan going in alone, and, from a narrative perspective there would have been no difference. The foreshadowing of the necessity of uniting Protoss and Zerg to end the threat ended becoming "oh, actually, we just needed that zerg/terran hybrid, the rest of you guys are pretty much irrelevant, sorry for bothering you" (which is even stranger when you consider that Xel'Naga seemed rather insistant on bringing the Protoss here, going as far as tricking them into thinking he was Tassadar's ghost). So instead you have Kerrigan ascending and a bittersweet ending of her romance with Raynor.

It could have worked. At the end of a Terran or a Zerg campaign.

But, it comes at the end of the Protoss campaign, where both characters had maybe ten minutes of screen-time. You spent the previous hours getting invested in Artanis journey, in 'Fenix''s character exploration, in Rohana's mental struggles, into the various history of the Protoss factions and their struggle to reclaim their homeworld... and then the ending comes and announce "and now, for something completely different...". The timing is terrible.

I agree with this assessment. In fact I kind of feel the same way about the campaign as the world. In that

You're expecting one thing from the trailer and the protoss campaigns from before this one and you get another. The whole Everything previously established in the cannon was a lie! is only a step behind "It was all a dream" in terms of lame plot twists for me. We spend much time with the protoss before this going on and on about Auir, and then a big trailer about how we're gonna retake with our badass Khala powers and then we spend all of like... three missions total actually involved in fighting for Aiur, and we ditch the whole Khala thing after 1 mission.

The Khala was one thing that made the protoss interesting and really separated the Aiur Protoss from the Dark Templar. It made different and gave lot credence to the whole allying between them is hard thing, it had sort of this nice individualism vs community feeling oing. Classic Lawful vs Chaotic stuff and having them come together and find common ground was cool. It was also something that made the Aiur Protoss feel pretty unique to the setting. Then it's kind of like

"lol nope, Dark Templar objectively correct all all along! U ned dat FREEDOM boy. You're all stupid suckers for falling for that evil alien trap, lololololol. Lawful? More like LAME FULL"

There also wasn't really a sense of like loss from it, Artanis and Karax have like one conversation about it and then it totally shifts to "You gotta change only character who is sticking to the entire source of protoss entity, who we've made a total bigoted hard-head about everything to totally underscore how lame and dumb all our traditions were".

Not that I'm too broke up about it or anything. I mean I go into a Blizzard game expecting bad writing and tissue-paper thin characters. It's just this time it was more annoying than usual.




Well, all in all, the epilogue doesn't feel like Starcraft, in my opinion. It feels almost like Kingdom Hearts (the later levels, obviously). As for the main campaign, I really have to wonder why the guys at Blizzard hate the Protoss so darn much. So. Darn. Much. They love taking things away from the Protoss, and rarely do they ever get to win.
I don't wonder so much. I think it's kind of expected.

First look at the humans in the setting. A lot are vaguely "Guys from the southern united states" a region of a country that rebelled from a country that was born out of rebellion. A lot of the setting, terminology and atmosphere from around them also borrows from the Wild West, which is a bastion of rugged individualism in the american psyche. Jim Raynor was Confederate Marshal for pete's sake, and the game closes on him leaving his badge in an old country bar. Not only that as soon as the rebels win power, he's a corrupt terrible leader and you need to rebel again!

Next, look at the Zerg who start as this borg-like collective turning things into more Zerg. Their hive mind gets blown up, along with his council of power. They're all literally immobile helpless blobs with no power of their own, protected by a wall of their underlings. So once those annoying fat-cats are out of the way the Zerg become an extension of this individual badass doing things for her personal vendetta agenda against the authority figure who wronged her. However she does things hands-on and is way more powerful than anyone because she's an individual out to fulfill her personal goals as "Queen bitch of the universe".

Then let's look Protoss: They're steeped tradition, they share a communal mind link, they put emphasis on ideals "The Khala!", places "For Aiur!" and their former leaders "En Taro [Some Dead Guy]!" over the individual and personal feelings. They take concepts like duty, honor and hierarchies seriously and Artanis even has the title Hierarch. The Protoss revere their ancestors, have a caste system and even tell of their personal experiences and stories in terms of the traditions and places they're connected to: Note Talendar and Artanis talking about their favorite memories.

In short the Protoss are everything that Starcraft writers kind of dislike. The whole universe seems to come out of this very particular, very american way of viewing things and the Protoss don't fit in nicely into that view.

Imagine Starcraft as D&D game. The Protoss is the guy showing up to the table with Paladin, Knight or other class with a code of conduct and the GM is one of those guys just hellbent on making them fall to show how stupid, backwards and useless such ideals are and realize that Chaotic really is the best alignment.

[Draconi Redfir]

So granted i'm not a starcraft lore nut, i've never even played brood war or likely finished the SC 1 campain, but isn't the Kahla only gone for like, one generation tops? Those nerve chords are physically part of their bodies, like, they are biologically attatched there, if they weren't then it wouldn't be such a big deal, they could just re-attatch them later. So it stands to reason they were born with it yes? So all you need to do is make a new wave of protoss now that Amon is gone for good, and bada boom bada bing your kahla is back! They only had to free themselves of it because amon was inside and controling it, no more amon, no more worries.

So... yeah, thing'll just be back once someone starts getting busy. wouldn't be surprised if there were some toss who never severed themselves to begin with already, since as far as i was able to tell, amon lost his influince over it once the keystone was used on him.

[Artanis]

Well, now that I had a bit more time to ponderate on the ending, I think I can talk a bit more about it.

*snip*

You had an emotionnal climax with the final battle on Aiur, starting with awesome speeches and culminating with Amon getting nuked from orbit (which is arguably the best way to say "screw you" to someone), and then, when you go to help follow Kerrigan to end things, it feels rather like a clean-up operation to neatly tie-up things.

*snip*
It feels that way because it WAS. The entire reason for the epilogue campaign was to do exactly that: tie up loose ends.

Three things needed to happen by the end of StarCraft 2 to finish storyline and thus give them room to come up with something new for SC3: the Protoss had to retake Aiur; Narud and Amon had tie die "for realsies"; and they had to resolve Raynor x Kerrigan in such a way as to get rid of them.

[Devil's Advocate]It looks to me like their line of thinking (for better or for worse) was that it would make for a more epic end to the Void campaign to do half of that, then to have a separate epilogue that tied up the hanging threads while giving players one final chance with each race. I suspect (though I may be completely wrong) that this decision may have been made late in the process, as though they were largely done with the campaign, realized that there was still stuff they hadn't resolved, and tacked on the last three missions in their free time while waiting for the balance team to figure out what the f*** to do about Tank Drops. :smalltongue: IF you take the Void campaign ending as an actual ending and the Epilogue campaign as its own little side thing, it works reasonably well. ...-ish. Think about it: if the Epilogue campaign wasn't there and the 19th mission was the end of it all, the ending would seem a bit better.[/Devil's Advocate]

Unfortunately, players (including me, to an extent) evidently aren't taking the Void campaign ending as an actual ending, but basically saying that it was a 22-mission campaign whose last three missions were just given their own title. I think that what they should have done was make the Return to Aiur missions be at least partially alongside Raynor and Kerrigan (similar to the 1st Epilogue mission) en route to tying things up there. Terrans and Zerg help Protoss get Aiur back, Amon and Narud die, and something something Xel'Naga something something happens to let Raynor and Kerrigan leave the plot for good.



So granted i'm not a starcraft lore nut, i've never even played brood war or likely finished the SC 1 campain, but isn't the Kahla only gone for like, one generation tops? Those nerve chords are physically part of their bodies, like, they are biologically attatched there, if they weren't then it wouldn't be such a big deal, they could just re-attatch them later. So it stands to reason they were born with it yes? So all you need to do is make a new wave of protoss now that Amon is gone for good, and bada boom bada bing your kahla is back! They only had to free themselves of it because amon was inside and controling it, no more amon, no more worries.

So... yeah, thing'll just be back once someone starts getting busy. wouldn't be surprised if there were some toss who never severed themselves to begin with already, since as far as i was able to tell, amon lost his influince over it once the keystone was used on him.

Two problems:

First, the Protoss are (among many other tropes) a standard-issue "small number of badasses" race. The entire reason they use as many robots as they do is because there's so few of them. IIRC it's explicitly stated that Probes are robots because there just plain aren't enough Protoss to waste them on digging up minerals. "Once someone starts getting busy" is liable to be a long time coming.

Second, in SC1, the Khala was not an innate thing, it was a thing that's trained into them or something. The Khala came about to end a bunch of civil wars caused by the Xel'Naga abandoning them, and the DTs chopping off their nerve cords was a symbolic act, saying, "I don' wanna and you LITERALLY can't make me!" Now that the Protoss are not stabbing each other into extinction, I doubt anybody is going to be in any hurry to re-establish something nearly got the universe destroyed and that they no longer need anyways. ...or at least, this WOULD be the case if not for LotV apparently retconning it to make it biological. Now, who knows. Stupid retcons :smallsigh:

[Draconi Redfir]

It feels that way because it WAS. The entire reason for the epilogue campaign was to do exactly that: tie up loose ends.

Three things needed to happen by the end of StarCraft 2 to finish storyline and thus give them room to come up with something new for SC3: the Protoss had to retake Aiur; Narud and Amon had tie die "for realsies"; and they had to resolve Raynor x Kerrigan in such a way as to get rid of them.

[Devil's Advocate]It looks to me like their line of thinking (for better or for worse) was that it would make for a more epic end to the Void campaign to do half of that, then to have a separate epilogue that tied up the hanging threads while giving players one final chance with each race. I suspect (though I may be completely wrong) that this decision may have been made late in the process, as though they were largely done with the campaign, realized that there was still stuff they hadn't resolved, and tacked on the last three missions in their free time while waiting for the balance team to figure out what the f*** to do about Tank Drops. :smalltongue: IF you take the Void campaign ending as an actual ending and the Epilogue campaign as its own little side thing, it works reasonably well. ...-ish. Think about it: if the Epilogue campaign wasn't there and the 19th mission was the end of it all, the ending would seem a bit better.[/Devil's Advocate]

Unfortunately, players (including me, to an extent) evidently aren't taking the Void campaign ending as an actual ending, but basically saying that it was a 22-mission campaign whose last three missions were just given their own title. I think that what they should have done was make the Return to Aiur missions be at least partially alongside Raynor and Kerrigan (similar to the 1st Epilogue mission). Protoss get Aiur back, Amon and Narud die, and something Xel'Naga something MacGuffin something something happens to let Raynor and Kerrigan leave the plot for good.

Two problems:

First, the Protoss are (among many other tropes) a standard-issue "small number of badasses" race. The entire reason they use as many robots as they do is because there's so few of them. IIRC it's explicitly stated that Probes are robots because there just plain aren't enough Protoss to waste them on digging up minerals. "Once someone starts getting busy" is liable to be a long time coming.

Second, in SC1, the Khala was not an innate thing, it was a thing that's trained into them or something. The Khala came about to end a bunch of civil wars caused by the Xel'Naga abandoning them, and the DTs chopping off their nerve cords was a symbolic act, saying, "I don' wanna and you LITERALLY can't make me!" Now that the Protoss are not stabbing each other into extinction, I doubt anybody is going to be in any hurry to re-establish something nearly got the universe destroyed and that they no longer need anyways. ...or at least, this WOULD be the case if not for LotV apparently retconning it to make it biological. Now, who knows. Stupid retcons :smallsigh:


Alright, second one is a fair point. again i never played/remembered the first game or brood war, so my info on that era is sketchy at best.

but for the first, idk about you, but i lost a LOT of protoss in the campaign, and most of those were likely locked in an ark-ship for several millennia idk about you, but i'm thinking a protoss baby-boom is WELL overdue:smalltongue:

seriously though, did you SEE how many Templar were stored on that ship!? If nothing else it was those dang ark-ships that caused their small population to start with! They probably locked like 80% of their species in those things!

edit:

Taking the void campain as the be-all end-all though isn't really... fitting. We went through all of WoL and HoTS learning that Kerrigan was the key to defeating Amon, and that only she could do it and she needed to be alive to do it.

in the main campain Kerrigan did nothing to Amon, you can't really build her up as the one required to destroy him only for her to not be required at all. otherwise that future Zeratule saw never would have been possible.

[Draken]

It feels that way because it WAS. The entire reason for the epilogue campaign was to do exactly that: tie up loose ends.

Three things needed to happen by the end of StarCraft 2 to finish storyline and thus give them room to come up with something new for SC3: the Protoss had to retake Aiur; Narud and Amon had tie die "for realsies"; and they had to resolve Raynor x Kerrigan in such a way as to get rid of them.

[Devil's Advocate]It looks to me like their line of thinking (for better or for worse) was that it would make for a more epic end to the Void campaign to do half of that, then to have a separate epilogue that tied up the hanging threads while giving players one final chance with each race. I suspect (though I may be completely wrong) that this decision may have been made late in the process, as though they were largely done with the campaign, realized that there was still stuff they hadn't resolved, and tacked on the last three missions in their free time while waiting for the balance team to figure out what the f*** to do about Tank Drops. :smalltongue: IF you take the Void campaign ending as an actual ending and the Epilogue campaign as its own little side thing, it works reasonably well. ...-ish. Think about it: if the Epilogue campaign wasn't there and the 19th mission was the end of it all, the ending would seem a bit better.[/Devil's Advocate]

Unfortunately, players (including me, to an extent) evidently aren't taking the Void campaign ending as an actual ending, but basically saying that it was a 22-mission campaign whose last three missions were just given their own title. I think that what they should have done was make the Return to Aiur missions be at least partially alongside Raynor and Kerrigan (similar to the 1st Epilogue mission) en route to tying things up there. Terrans and Zerg help Protoss get Aiur back, Amon and Narud die, and something something Xel'Naga something something happens to let Raynor and Kerrigan leave the plot for good.




Two problems:

First, the Protoss are (among many other tropes) a standard-issue "small number of badasses" race. The entire reason they use as many robots as they do is because there's so few of them. IIRC it's explicitly stated that Probes are robots because there just plain aren't enough Protoss to waste them on digging up minerals. "Once someone starts getting busy" is liable to be a long time coming.

Second, in SC1, the Khala was not an innate thing, it was a thing that's trained into them or something. The Khala came about to end a bunch of civil wars caused by the Xel'Naga abandoning them, and the DTs chopping off their nerve cords was a symbolic act, saying, "I don' wanna and you LITERALLY can't make me!" Now that the Protoss are not stabbing each other into extinction, I doubt anybody is going to be in any hurry to re-establish something nearly got the universe destroyed and that they no longer need anyways. ...or at least, this WOULD be the case if not for LotV apparently retconning it to make it biological. Now, who knows. Stupid retcons :smallsigh:

Second spoiler address.

There wasn't any mention of it being purely biological, but it does rely on a biological aspect of them, that is the Nerve Cords, this has always been so.

And I can see at least some protoss wanting to reestablish the khala in the upcoming generation. Rohana probably would. As would many of the Aiur protoss who saw abandoning it as a regrettable necessity, a necessity that is already in the past, specially with Amon 100% dead along with all* of his minions and methods of resurrection.

*Meaningfully speaking.

[Artanis]

Alright, second one is a fair point. again i never played/remembered the first game or brood war, so my info on that era is sketchy at best.

but for the first, idk about you, but i lost a LOT of protoss in the campaign, and most of those were likely locked in an ark-ship for several millennia idk about you, but i'm thinking a protoss baby-boom is WELL overdue:smalltongue:

seriously though, did you SEE how many Templar were stored on that ship!? If nothing else it was those dang ark-ships that caused their small population to start with! They probably locked like 80% of their species in those things!
Indeed. I'm just saying that "baby boom" is extremely relative. In BW, Artanis was considered to be ridiculously young to have gotten any sort of remotely high military rank...at something like 200 or 300 years old. "A few generations" could very well be a millennium for the Protoss :smallwink:



edit:

Taking the void campain as the be-all end-all though isn't really... fitting. We went through all of WoL and HoTS learning that Kerrigan was the key to defeating Amon, and that only she could do it and she needed to be alive to do it.

in the main campain Kerrigan did nothing to Amon, you can't really build her up as the one required to destroy him only for her to not be required at all. otherwise that future Zeratule saw never would have been possible.
This is one of the things I meant - but seem to have not expressed well - in my post about putting all that stuff into the main campaign. It'd be included in the "something something Xel'Naga something something" bit :smalltongue:


Second spoiler address.

There wasn't any mention of it being purely biological, but it does rely on a biological aspect of them, that is the Nerve Cords, this has always been so.

And I can see at least some protoss wanting to reestablish the khala in the upcoming generation. Rohana probably would. As would many of the Aiur protoss who saw abandoning it as a regrettable necessity, a necessity that is already in the past, specially with Amon 100% dead along with all* of his minions and methods of resurrection.

*Meaningfully speaking.
It does indeed rely on a biological aspect of them, hence the DTs severing their nerve cords. However, the Khala could not have been innate because there was a time when it did not exist. It was created to force unity on the Protoss, who were civil-warring themselves to the brink of extinction in the wake of the Xel'Naga leaving them. Instead, IIRC, in SC1 the DTs severing their nerve cords was an irreversible gesture of what they were doing anyways: retaining their individuality by refusing to join the Khala.

It would be like...*thinks*...if humans had a thing where everybody had a computer chip put in their pinky finger at birth, and some people said, "not only are we refusing to do this pinky finger computer chip thing, but we're cutting off our pinky fingers as well!" No pinky finger = no pinky-chip, ever. And now that said chips have been used to mind-control everybody into almost destroying the universe, while I don't think the Templar will start cutting THEIR babies' pinky fingers off, I have a hard time imagining that a race like the Protoss - whose lives, and thus memories, last for centuries - will be in any hurry to start implanting the chips again anytime soon :smallwink:

...yeah, that's probably a terrible example, in more ways than one. Hopefully it gets the point across. :smallredface:



Note the "IIRC" and "in SC1" parts at the start though. I may very well be remembering wrong, and even if I'm remembering right then it appears to have been retconned anyways :smallredface:


Edit: Something it has taken me embarrassingly long to think of:

It could be that the Khala has become so powerful that it would force itself on others who weren't taking measures to prevent it. The Khala still wouldn't be biological in and of itself, but in this case it might indeed require a biological response like severing nerve cords or being stoned all the time. This would also still be a bit of a retcon AFAIK, but it's a possibility :smallredface:

[Almarck]

anyone lolong forward to Novas DLC? I eish Starcraft t Ghost came out but this book might just the thing we need.

[VoxRationis]

I agree with this assessment. In fact I kind of feel the same way about the campaign as the world. In that

You're expecting one thing from the trailer and the protoss campaigns from before this one and you get another. The whole Everything previously established in the cannon was a lie! is only a step behind "It was all a dream" in terms of lame plot twists for me. We spend much time with the protoss before this going on and on about Auir, and then a big trailer about how we're gonna retake with our badass Khala powers and then we spend all of like... three missions total actually involved in fighting for Aiur, and we ditch the whole Khala thing after 1 mission.

The Khala was one thing that made the protoss interesting and really separated the Aiur Protoss from the Dark Templar. It made different and gave lot credence to the whole allying between them is hard thing, it had sort of this nice individualism vs community feeling oing. Classic Lawful vs Chaotic stuff and having them come together and find common ground was cool. It was also something that made the Aiur Protoss feel pretty unique to the setting. Then it's kind of like

"lol nope, Dark Templar objectively correct all all along! U ned dat FREEDOM boy. You're all stupid suckers for falling for that evil alien trap, lololololol. Lawful? More like LAME FULL"

There also wasn't really a sense of like loss from it, Artanis and Karax have like one conversation about it and then it totally shifts to "You gotta change only character who is sticking to the entire source of protoss entity, who we've made a total bigoted hard-head about everything to totally underscore how lame and dumb all our traditions were".

Speaking of Karax and traditions...
Did anyone find the abolition of the Protoss caste system kind of odd? Not so much in that it was done but in how it was done. Mr. Only-Protoss-With-A-Beard commands from the rear lines (never personally seeing combat; his only combat missions come later), and suddenly he's hailed as a "warrior," even though he has never shown combat aptitude and has no particular training or inclination to be a warrior. Then everyone, unilaterally, is declared Templar, rather than simply annulling all castes.






I don't wonder so much. I think it's kind of expected.

First look at the humans in the setting. A lot are vaguely "Guys from the southern united states" a region of a country that rebelled from a country that was born out of rebellion. A lot of the setting, terminology and atmosphere from around them also borrows from the Wild West, which is a bastion of rugged individualism in the american psyche. Jim Raynor was Confederate Marshal for pete's sake, and the game closes on him leaving his badge in an old country bar. Not only that as soon as the rebels win power, he's a corrupt terrible leader and you need to rebel again!

Next, look at the Zerg who start as this borg-like collective turning things into more Zerg. Their hive mind gets blown up, along with his council of power. They're all literally immobile helpless blobs with no power of their own, protected by a wall of their underlings. So once those annoying fat-cats are out of the way the Zerg become an extension of this individual badass doing things for her personal vendetta agenda against the authority figure who wronged her. However she does things hands-on and is way more powerful than anyone because she's an individual out to fulfill her personal goals as "Queen bitch of the universe".

Then let's look Protoss: They're steeped tradition, they share a communal mind link, they put emphasis on ideals "The Khala!", places "For Aiur!" and their former leaders "En Taro [Some Dead Guy]!" over the individual and personal feelings. They take concepts like duty, honor and hierarchies seriously and Artanis even has the title Hierarch. The Protoss revere their ancestors, have a caste system and even tell of their personal experiences and stories in terms of the traditions and places they're connected to: Note Talendar and Artanis talking about their favorite memories.

In short the Protoss are everything that Starcraft writers kind of dislike. The whole universe seems to come out of this very particular, very american way of viewing things and the Protoss don't fit in nicely into that view.

Imagine Starcraft as D&D game. The Protoss is the guy showing up to the table with Paladin, Knight or other class with a code of conduct and the GM is one of those guys just hellbent on making them fall to show how stupid, backwards and useless such ideals are and realize that Chaotic really is the best alignment.

You speak truth. You know, I don't even know how non-Khala Protoss are supposed to work. All of their tech uses it (the psi mechanic, plus the lore on most of their stuff). They don't even have a non-telepathic way of talking to one another!
Also, what's with the Tal'Darim? They completely changed in their basic structure between WoL and LotV. When we first saw them, they were angrier Protoss with a silver-and-blue color scheme instead of gold-and-blue. When the reveal comes that they're working for Amon, they suddenly do a color-scheme shift to match the protagonist's knowledge, for no other apparent reason. Then, when we see more of them in LotV, we see that they have a completely different society to that of the Aiur Protoss, with another aesthetic shift (MORE SPIKES!!!) and a Sith-esque political structure that came out of nowhere.

[Yora]

I've finished Wings of Liberty only once Heart of the Swarm came out and I think I didn't make it even halfway through that one.

Now I just watched the cutscenes of the first half of HotS again and I am getting serious Star Wars prequel impressions here. This makes "Do not want!" almost look like good acting in comparison. Starcraft and Brood War were rough around the edges and a bit campy, but Starcraft 2 really is falling flat in every conceivable respect. The first game was genuinely grim and gloomy and Kerrigan's motivation was anger at being betrayed. But Starcraft 2 seems to be at the same time much more playful and heaping on the drama to be nothing but cheesy and sappy. And Kerrigan's motivation is her endless pain at the loss of the great love of her life, who in the first game was simply that new guy she was kind of starting to like.

Any time I see talk about Starcraft 2 these days actually makes me want to play the old game again. But this one? I don't think I really want to know what great ideas they had to continue the story.

[Acanous]

Zeratul is Dead. En Taro Zeratul!
Honestly all of SC2 has come off as super-campy, from the news reports we got in WoL, to the random warcraft-callback "Feral Zerg" and now this... whatever this is.

It was fun, at least, but the writing tastes like they took out the spice to make it palettable to a wider, dumber audience.

Imagine if the storyline of SC1 were to occur now, as a new game. "Oh man Mengsk was a bad guy?? What?? He was the good guy! What do you mean Reynor is the leader now, we're so screwed. Oh no, now Kerrigan is a Zerg! Also another Ghost is a Zerg oh god what he's not really a Zerg??"

people be like "Why do the Protoss have different leaders every other mission??"

It was a bit further in depth, less blatantly campy. Not saying it was completely non-camp,(Kerrigan's Evlolz transformation for example) but like, it wasn't as obvious that Mengsk was the big bad. Not obvious right away that the dark templar had been corrupted (Wouldn't Razhagal be like, proof protoss can be infested without the Khala?) and after Brood War, I had so many questions.

After SC2 the only question I have is "What happened to that Queen Kerrigan made and put on a Protoss ship".

Kind of like... SC/Brood War was breaking a lot of new ground and they got a few hall passes on plotholes because it's a story about how people aren't perfect. SC2 they decided that instead it was all about eliminating any shades of grey and suddenly you're a good guy or a bad guy. We see it with the news anchors (She's good, he's bad, ending serves up obvious karma) Tychus (bad guy, had to die), Kerrigan (good guy, gets to live), the Zerg swarm in general (Someone needs to put SC2 HotS on TVtropes under "Mighty Whitey") and now the Protoss.

Son I am disappoint.

Oh, and as to the Tassidar sacrifice-
he wasn't supposed to die. He was actually supposed to be saved after the crash by Zeratul, by merging with him into an Archon.
This is why the Archon hero unit in SC is default named Tassidar/Zeratul.

They changed it for reasons.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Yanno, technically, Kerrigan IS a fusion of two races... Terran and Zerg. Just sayin', maybe the Firstborn wasn't actually the Purity of Essence they thought they were. Everyone just assumed that it was the 'toss, and you know what happens when you assume.

The WoL campaign, I enjoyed so much that it was over before I knew it, then immediately went back and played it again, and again, and again. The HotS campaign I played through several times, although not as much as WoL. LotV is... well, I suppose the most polite way to describe it is as a slog. I doubt very much I will replay it any time soon.

[Almarck]

Nit pick. Zerg are purity of Essence. Protoss were assumed to be pure of form



In any case, I hope the XelNaga get more material to actually... quantify how powerful they are. I mean just how godlike we talking here?

[Yora]

Zeratul is Dead. En Taro Zeratul!
Honestly all of SC2 has come off as super-campy, from the news reports we got in WoL, to the random warcraft-callback "Feral Zerg" and now this... whatever this is.

If the game were self-aware campy it might not be so bad. Look back at any cutscene in the first game that has humans in it. It's complete cheesy indulgence for pure ridiculous fun. (Brood War not so much.) But SC2 takes itself as serious and profound as Call of Duty or Halo but somehow does it even worse and is just corny.
Metal Gear Solid takes itself serious and uses all the absurdities for fun and to create a somewhat surreal atmosphere. SC2 doesn't show any indication that it's aware how stupid it is. That's the difference between campy and corny.


corny:

- old-fashioned, trite, or lacking in subtlety

- dull and tiresome but with pretensions of significance or originality

Yes, I think that's the appropriate term here. :smallannoyed:

[nightwyrm]

I kinda felt like they were phoning it in for LotV. I've been replaying WoL again so I can replay SC2 fully in sequence and I was impressed by how much more content there were in WoL. On the Hyperion, there was so much more stuff you can click and examine: random crew members, jukeboxes, arcades, detailed fluff for your new units, watch the news etc. Some may find it campy but I thought it really contributed to the atmosphere of a larger universe than your starship base and that your actions mattered. This sense was somewhat missing in the later games, especially LotV. LotV had the shortest campaign, the missions were very much alike with similar win-cons, and a lack of customis-ability in it units and tech compared to the other two campaigns. As a huge protoss fan, I was pretty disappointed.

[Draconi Redfir]

lack of customibility? really?:smallconfused: you had three unit options for every unit you could possibly play over the Zerg's two options for only most of the units, and you could mix and match them as much as you wanted (i tended to have a mix usually, but went all-aiur for the take-back-aiur mission for example) and you had your own customizeable power bar at the top full of different abilities and benifits you could also swap out if you needed too. This is a lack of customization?

[nightwyrm]

lack of customibility? really?:smallconfused: you had three unit options for every unit you could possibly play over the Zerg's two options for only most of the units, and you could mix and match them as much as you wanted (i tended to have a mix usually, but went all-aiur for the take-back-aiur mission for example) and you had your own customizeable power bar at the top full of different abilities and benifits you could also swap out if you needed too. This is a lack of customization?

I should rephrase it another way...I missed the irreversible customizeability. In WoL and HotS there were a lot of unit and base upgrade selections which you had to choose one and can't go back on. I find it adds replay value to the overall campaign. LotV just unlocks all your units and some of the variants aren't really all that much different. The placement of some of the unit selection also annoys me. Arbiters in the same group as Voidrays? Mothership with Carriers? Jamming some of the higher end units into the same group also means there are no variants of the same unit type, ie. there's only one type of Carriers. They're also missing a few units like warp prisms, oracles, the new disruptors, and even observers.....the lack of any cloaked enemy units in LotV feels a bit dumbed down.

[Artanis]

I should rephrase it another way...I missed the irreversible customizeability. In WoL and HotS there were a lot of unit and base upgrade selections which you had to choose one and can't go back on. I find it adds replay value to the overall campaign. LotV just unlocks all your units and some of the variants aren't really all that much different. The placement of some of the unit selection also annoys me. Arbiters in the same group as Voidrays? Mothership with Carriers? They're also missing a few units like warp prisms, the new disruptors, and even observers.....the lack of any cloaked enemy units in LotV feels a bit dumbed down.

Regarding Observers, I don't think there were any cloaked enemies in WoL or HotS, either. So if lacking cloaked enemies is "dumbing down", then you're two expansions too late on that complaint.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

lack of customibility? really?:smallconfused: you had three unit options for every unit you could possibly play over the Zerg's two options for only most of the units, and you could mix and match them as much as you wanted (i tended to have a mix usually, but went all-aiur for the take-back-aiur mission for example) and you had your own customizeable power bar at the top full of different abilities and benifits you could also swap out if you needed too. This is a lack of customization?

I'm in agreement with this. There was a ton of unit customization. In particular, I liked the... hmm... let's just say the third faction for the immortals, once it unlocks.

I just didn't like how every other mission was a rush mission on the race least suited to rushing and how it kept trying to get you to split your forces up into penny-packets to pick up achievements only to have them defeated in detail. I also wasn't too fond of how it kept trying to keep you from establishing a base in the first place, cranking out probes as fast as you can, even Chrono'd, is just not fast enough apparently.

Can I do it? Sure. But it's a slog. It isn't rewarding, it is just annoying. I'm having to force myself to play through it, which isn't exactly a stellar reason to play the game. I'll probably get around to finishing that last mission that I just can't seem to give enough damns about to go play. Eventually. Maybe. It's kinda down on my list of things to do. Probably somewhere under 'getting a root canal'.

It also feels like they fired their entire writing team and hired a brand new one who had a gripe with the previous team and did everything they could to piss all over the storyline so far. It's like... it's like they hired Joss Wheaton for the first two, then got Michael Bay to do the third.

[Olinser]

I'm in agreement with this. There was a ton of unit customization. In particular, I liked the... hmm... let's just say the third faction for the immortals, once it unlocks.

I just didn't like how every other mission was a rush mission on the race least suited to rushing and how it kept trying to get you to split your forces up into penny-packets to pick up achievements only to have them defeated in detail. I also wasn't too fond of how it kept trying to keep you from establishing a base in the first place, cranking out probes as fast as you can, even Chrono'd, is just not fast enough apparently.

Can I do it? Sure. But it's a slog. It isn't rewarding, it is just annoying. I'm having to force myself to play through it, which isn't exactly a stellar reason to play the game. I'll probably get around to finishing that last mission that I just can't seem to give enough damns about to go play. Eventually. Maybe. It's kinda down on my list of things to do. Probably somewhere under 'getting a root canal'.

It also feels like they fired their entire writing team and hired a brand new one who had a gripe with the previous team and did everything they could to piss all over the storyline so far. It's like... it's like they hired Joss Wheaton for the first two, then got Michael Bay to do the third.

Uhm... what difficulty are you playing on? Normal was stupidly easy, not once was my base ever under any real threat and I never came anywhere near to losing a mission. You can easily beat the first attack on your base in any of the Normal missions you have an actual base on without building anything other than probes.

The time rush missions are absurdly easy as long as you build appropriate strike forces and have decent Spear of Adun abilities. Most of them are a snooze because the AI isn't very good at defending the actual rush objectives.

Hard and Brutal are a bit more difficult, but they're supposed to be. Even at those difficulties the missions themselves aren't particularly difficult, as long as you take advantage of the stupidly OP upgrades available and build appropriate strike forces.

[Draconi Redfir]

hope they add more co-op maps in the future. already played the five or so existing ones at least five times each.

[Grif]

It also feels like they fired their entire writing team and hired a brand new one who had a gripe with the previous team and did everything they could to piss all over the storyline so far. It's like... it's like they hired Joss Wheaton for the first two, then got Michael Bay to do the third.

Probably an (un)intended side effect on focusing the story so much on the honestly eye-rolling romance between Jimmy and Kerrigan.

[Acanous]

Probably an (un)intended side effect on focusing the story so much on the honestly eye-rolling romance between Jimmy and Kerrigan.

Honestly I think the Reynor/Kerrigan romance actually makes the most sense out of any story decision thus far.

They weren't really important to each other, until they basically both lost everything else. Suddenly Kerrigan is Jim's biggest failure, representative of his loss to Mengsk, and Reynor is the one guy that Sarah knows will still love her, even though she's a horrible infested monster.

That's actually pretty good psychology there.


It was still cheesy, but the kind of cheese that made sense, at least.
Oh hey, is it possible to get enough Solarite to have all the top options at the same time? Not that I ever use warp in robotics/stargate, but I'd like to try some of the other high end options- I basically just always use Fenix and time stop.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Oh hey, is it possible to get enough Solarite to have all the top options at the same time? Not that I ever use warp in robotics/stargate, but I'd like to try some of the other high end options- I basically just always use Fenix and time stop.

Really? Warp Core is the single most powerful ability the Spear of Adun has to offer. You can warp immortals, collossi, void rays, and whatever else you want directly into the middle of the fight. Instant reinforcements. Particularly with the third-faction immortals, those things just eat anything on the ground for breakfast.

Mass Recall, on the other hand, I find to be far more valuable than Fenix. If you base is getting attacked (again), warp your guys back to base.

[Dienekes]

Probably an (un)intended side effect on focusing the story so much on the honestly eye-rolling romance between Jimmy and Kerrigan.

It's done now. Honestly, the best thing I can say about LotV's story is that it pretty much ended the worst threads of SC's story.

-Kerry and Jim got their happily ever after and are now out of the story, so we can focus on more interesting things, like inter-species politics.
-The Xel'Naga are dead. None of the strangely omnipotent being who were somehow beaten by Protoss back when they were still savages. No more prophecies and gods, so we can focus on more interesting things, like inter-species politics.

Honestly, of all the threads left open from BW I have to say I thought the Xel'Naga were the most disappointing. Here's a species that have been ****ing about with other species for some purpose that no one is really sure about. Whatever species they were, they were not particularly strong as both the Protoss and the Zerg beat them and seemingly killed them, but they had one agent in the games, Duran, who may have been a Xel'Naga, we're not sure. But he doesn't seem much stronger than any other hero, but he's doing more of those dastardly experiments that the Xel'Naga did in the background.

To me, all that information pointed to a race of meddling creatures with their own secret agenda. Probably evil, but maybe just alien and scientific. What we got was, Space Gods and the Space Devil, that seemed like they would have fit better in Warcraft's campaign.

The actual missions were generally pretty fun, I thought, though WoL I think had the most original level designs. But the Protoss characters were largely uninteresting. The ones who had the most personality were Rohana and Alarack, unfortunately one first seemed to simply be an obstacle in the way of Artanis new plan of ignoring tradition, and Alarack was such a token evil teammate it often bordered on embarrassing. Tychus was also a token evil teammate of sorts, but he at least had some personality beyond evil dictator and had a history with Jim that fueled some interesting exchanges. Alarack and Artanis talked like two ancients discussing philosophy in ways that the entire modern world finds rather outdated. But beyond that, nothing really happens between them.

Fenix was my favorite character in SC, and I have to say, he probably should have remained dead. He really didn't feel like the Fenix I remember who always offered to be first in every battle and volunteered to stay behind on Aiur. I still used him whenever I could, because, come on, sending Fenis the one man army into the fighting is just funny. But in the story, his big moment is getting the other robots to join the Protoss, which takes all of about 1 sentence to do. I guess his diplomacy skills were damn great, but it didn't really make him feel like an interesting character.

While this sounds all very negative, I didn't hate playing the campaign. I just thought it was passable, but could have been much more interesting if they had put more work into things like characters and factions instead of focusing on the rather generic big bad end of the universe plot. Especially when that big bad seems to lose every single fight he gets in except the first. And his master stroke his controlling the race which is quite honestly the weakest of the 3 in terms of overall power. The zerg swarms are endless, and terrans for all their internal struggle seem to at least have the resources and people necessary to defend their home planets. Do the Protoss even have usable planets under their control anymore? Other than the evil guys of course.

[Yora]

Maybe people are judging Blizard by a reputation that by know is long outdated. Starcraft, Diablo 2, and Warcraft 3 are all well over a decade old and none of the extensions of the storylines have been particularly well recieved. The stories of those older games aren't really that amazing either, but the fancy and lavish presentation of the recent ones might be too much for this kind of writing to handle.

[Dienekes]

Maybe people are judging Blizard by a reputation that by know is long outdated. Starcraft, Diablo 2, and Warcraft 3 are all well over a decade old and none of the extensions of the storylines have been particularly well recieved. The stories of those older games aren't really that amazing either, but the fancy and lavish presentation of the recent ones might be too much for this kind of writing to handle.

Never played Diablo, but I did a recent replay of the first SC, and while I will admit the writing is not great. The changes in the story are at least engrossing. Seeing Duke switch sides, Mengsk revealing his true colors, then Kerrigan's vilification, and the bitter civil war of the Protoss held my attention much more than steadily, unstoppably kicking Amon's ass did.

[Almarck]

Maybe people are judging Blizard by a reputation that by know is long outdated. Starcraft, Diablo 2, and Warcraft 3 are all well over a decade old and none of the extensions of the storylines have been particularly well recieved. The stories of those older games aren't really that amazing either, but the fancy and lavish presentation of the recent ones might be too much for this kind of writing to handle.




I do have to agree, Blizzard games aren't exactly famous for storytelling, rather it's their game play that we know them for. In fact, I'm fairly sure that RTS games are the genre that really isn't really good on story either since the whole setup is the provide an excuse to why all of the various factions fight each other in a campaign.

[VoxRationis]

I should rephrase it another way...I missed the irreversible customizeability. In WoL and HotS there were a lot of unit and base upgrade selections which you had to choose one and can't go back on. I find it adds replay value to the overall campaign. LotV just unlocks all your units and some of the variants aren't really all that much different. The placement of some of the unit selection also annoys me. Arbiters in the same group as Voidrays? Mothership with Carriers? Jamming some of the higher end units into the same group also means there are no variants of the same unit type, ie. there's only one type of Carriers. They're also missing a few units like warp prisms, oracles, the new disruptors, and even observers.....the lack of any cloaked enemy units in LotV feels a bit dumbed down.

I myself liked the fact that you could pick and choose and change as you went. The ability to rapidly re-allocate resources helps give the feeling that the Protoss actually has higher-tech than the rest of the setting.

[Artanis]

Regarding the gameplay, I really liked what they did with the Spear of Adun. Lore-wise, the Terrans have always been about somehow scraping together enough rusty junk and herding enough cats in the same general direction to get things done...which is basically what Raynor did. Lore-wise, the Zerg have always been about finding useful stuff, enslaving it, and making it as deadly as possible...which is basically what Kerrigan did. And Lore-wise, the Protoss have always been about digging up gigantic ancient guns (like, say, the Khaydarin Crystals that the Xel'Naga left them and that the Protoss put in everything) and using them to say, "NO U", which is exactly what the Spear of Adun is :smallwink:

It would have been nice to have fewer missions that boiled down to, "go kill these three to five buildings", but still...


On a related note, I don't think achievements should count when it comes to complaining about being forced to do things. I'd personally be disappointed if you could achieve all of them just as a matter of course, especially since you don't even have to play on Hard to get each mission's default three :smallwink:



It also feels like they fired their entire writing team and hired a brand new one who had a gripe with the previous team and did everything they could to piss all over the storyline so far. It's like... it's like they hired Joss Wheaton for the first two, then got Michael Bay to do the third.


I do have to agree, Blizzard games aren't exactly famous for storytelling, rather it's their game play that we know them for. In fact, I'm fairly sure that RTS games are the genre that really isn't really good on story either since the whole setup is the provide an excuse to why all of the various factions fight each other in a campaign.

Disclaimer: the following is mostly a general reply, not one specific to just these two posts. I'm just quoting them here as examples of the sentiment. So take the following in that context. Now, with that out of the way...


Something I would just like to note about the writing in SC1 and SC2: Chris Metzen wrote both scripts.

The most common theory among many friends of mine is that unlike SC1, Metzen didn't have somebody (notably James Phinney) around in SC2 to tell him that his writing is terrible and make him fix it. This is especially supported by an interview* where Metzen says that even he finds WoL's writing cringe-worthy...now that he looks back on it in retrospect.

Let's face it, if you really look at it, SC1/BW didn't exactly have objectively amazing writing either. I mean, come on, the whole Psi-Emitter thing was pretty stupid, and using crack to control an Overmind that was supposed to have been Dead For Good? Really? And BW's entire Protoss campaign might as well have been written by Kevin J. Anderson. SC1/BW just did a better job of mixing in enough silliness to largely offset the Micheal Bay :smallwink:



*Gimme a few to find the link. Link found! (http://www.polygon.com/2015/11/6/9670176/starcraft-2-future-history-dlc-blizzard)

The part I mentioned (spoilered to save space):

Reflecting back on StarCraft 2’s first installment, Wings of Liberty, Metzen views it with a mix of pride and a healthy dose of writer’s self-loathing. To get ready for Legacy of the Void, he popped in Wings of Liberty just a few weeks ago to play the campaign again. The nostalgia trip came with a few bruises.

"I was like, oof, over and over again, oh my God, this sounded so good at the time," Metzen says. "Oh my God, it’s terrible."

[Almarck]

You mean in other words, the same problem George Lucas when he wrote the Prequels? No one to give him quality control

[Yora]

I do have to agree, Blizzard games aren't exactly famous for storytelling, rather it's their game play that we know them for. In fact, I'm fairly sure that RTS games are the genre that really isn't really good on story either since the whole setup is the provide an excuse to why all of the various factions fight each other in a campaign.

I wouldn't say that. Take any of the games, remove all the cutscenes and character dialogue, and replace the graphics with something generic and people would probably be completely unimpressed by it. Gameplay is certainly important and Blizard is indeed doing exceptionally well in that regard, but I think it's the settings that really add that magic spark to the games.

With D2, SC, and WC3, I think it's not so much the stories that are actually there, but the stories that are implied. Diablo 1 and 2 don't have anything that could be called a plot, but the levels take you on a journey through the world during which you're getting all those little impressions of all the things there are in it. Starcraft 1 is similar. Sure, Kerrigan was unexpectedly awesome in Brood War, but I think the transition to character focused plots probably just didn't work out.
Warcraft 3 has a lot more characters and story than Starcraft, but even then it's still a story of armies fighting over a world and not a story of characters and their personal conflicts. Illidan had a story with Tyrande and Furion and Maiev brings her own baggage to the party., but that's not what the Night Elf campaigns are about. It's not what motivates the characters or what they are talking about during dialogues. They are always about business and stopping world destroying super villains.
The Terran and Zerg campaigns in SC2 are all about the personal issues between Raynor, Kerrigan, and Mengsk. There is no real overarching plot in the background. SC1 was all about "Zerg are wiping out everything, fight for your lives!" That's not much and possibly the most simplistic plot ever, but that's what defines the goals of the characters and their actions. Hating Mengsk and Jimmy and Sarah being tragically in love is not a sufficient replacement. Oh, and some weird Protoss who only Raynor knows had a bad dream about something that will happen later. But not yet.

[Olinser]

Really? Warp Core is the single most powerful ability the Spear of Adun has to offer. You can warp immortals, collossi, void rays, and whatever else you want directly into the middle of the fight. Instant reinforcements. Particularly with the third-faction immortals, those things just eat anything on the ground for breakfast.

Mass Recall, on the other hand, I find to be far more valuable than Fenix. If you base is getting attacked (again), warp your guys back to base.

By warp core do you mean Deploy Pylon? Because that ability is pretty crappy. It costs a ridiculous 75 energy and you can accomplish the same thing by just bringing a probe along with a strike force and dropping a pylon right outside your attack location so it's done before you start so you can use energy on abilities that will actually win you the fight faster and with fewer losses. If you meant Warp Harmonization that's even worse because it occupies the same tier as the stupidly useful Orbital Assimilator, which should be used 100% of the time.

Mass Recall is worthless. I literally only used it once in a replay for the achievement. It is useful in exactly ONE situation - if you are attacking and you were too dumb to leave static defenses or a defense force behind. In which case it's still terrible because Fenix will slaughter any strike force himself and has the added benefit of being useful on offense by utterly crushing bases. A single Solar Lance or Fenix will wipe out any strike force on any map that attacks you, all Mass Recall does is delay your victory. Even Shield Overcharge is more useful because that basically guarantees a successful base destruction with few losses.

[Almarck]

I find its kinda pointless to leave behind base defenses beyond just a few sacrificial static turrets on Brutal. Any force sufficient to defend the base would significantly reduce the effectiveness of your attacking forces.

As a result, I prefer to use Mass Recall if I lack any other removal options.theres also a few scenarios such as when I want to save some units that are near destruction.

Deploy Plyon I find is handy if you really need an energy sink that doesn't cost Solarite also handy in that one mission where kudu get carriers since you have so little minerals and no way to put probes in certain places. I do prefer Chrono surging out immortals and voidrays though, which is surprisingly handy for defense as well as offense

I also prefer Time Stop and temporal fields over more dakka as those of find more useful when you have decent forces nearby.

Orbital assimilators are Definately a priority choice though, but they aren't essential. Harmonization is useful when you want to get asap reinforcements such as in a pivitol battle that is ongoing. Such situations are rare, but they do happen enough in my experiance . In short, harmonization wins fights, assimilators win economy

Again, I am talking brutal.

[Olinser]

I find its kinda pointless to leave behind base defenses beyond just a few sacrificial static turrets on Brutal. Any force sufficient to defend the base would significantly reduce the effectiveness of your attacking forces.

As a result, I prefer to use Mass Recall if I lack any other removal options.theres also a few scenarios such as when I want to save some units that are near destruction.

Deploy Plyon I find is handy if you really need an energy sink that doesn't cost Solarite also handy in that one mission where kudu get carriers since you have so little minerals and no way to put probes in certain places. I do prefer Chrono surging out immortals and voidrays though, which is surprisingly handy for defense as well as offense

I also prefer Time Stop and temporal fields over more dakka as those of find more useful when you have decent forces nearby.

Orbital assimilators are Definately a priority choice though, but they aren't essential. Harmonization is useful when you want to get asap reinforcements such as in a pivitol battle that is ongoing. Such situations are rare, but they do happen enough in my experiance . In short, harmonization wins fights, assimilators win economy

Again, I am talking brutal.

Brutal Fenix is still 100% better, and shield overcharge is still far better. Both of them will allow you to win fights with SIGNIFICANTLY less casualties than you were going to sustain before, and Fenix is especially useful in rush maps because he single handedly wipes out bases on objectives.

You don't need very much defenses to handle anything even on brutal. 2-4 DT in the front for shadow strike, a few cannons and a couple batteries and monoliths in the back. No force will even get through the shields.

For temporal field, It's not about more dakka, it's about effectiveness. Solar Lance is much better than Temporal Fields because they have exactly the same cost and cooldown, but Solar Lance affects a much bigger area and actually kills anything the field was going to freeze, and then you have to waste time killing them anyway. Temporal can be useful if you are facing big groups of Hybrids that Lance wouldn't kill, but against normal units Lance is always better.

Harmonization isn't very good because it is only a 20% increase in speed and costs 50 solarite, which could have gone to other abilities. So you get a few units out (equal to the number of barracks you have), about 8 seconds earlier than you would have gotten them anyway. If a handful of units 8 seconds earlier was the difference in a fight then you probably shouldn't have taken the fight in the first place. Assimilator is 100% mandatory on any map that requires you to rush an army because you get full gas production for 150 minerals less and without the time of building 3 probes per geyser.

Time stop is very, very good, I will agree, and is the strongest ability on the tier.

[Almarck]

I do prefer overcharge to recall or fenix. As much as I like him, I tend to find he doesn't do enough when I get to deploy him.


As for solar Lance vs field yeah, that's exactly my reasoning. I like to run lots of age or antiswarm units so normal foes are basically negligible. The whole point for running field for me is reducing the threat of big beef cakes. And generally solar Lance wouldn't do enough sustained damage.


Time Stop is so broken. Especially in the multi-player where in first learned how good it could be. Like wow 20 seconds to do what you want...


Overall I'd say as far as campaigns, the Protoss are Definately the most overpowered campaign.

[Draconi Redfir]

Really? Warp Core is the single most powerful ability the Spear of Adun has to offer. You can warp immortals, collossi, void rays, and whatever else you want directly into the middle of the fight. Instant reinforcements. Particularly with the third-faction immortals, those things just eat anything on the ground for breakfast.

Mass Recall, on the other hand, I find to be far more valuable than Fenix. If you base is getting attacked (again), warp your guys back to base.

Warp core is indeed very tempting, but i found it hard to justify getting rid to automatic vespine harvisters.

As useful as mass recall was, i wish i had remembered to swap it out for fenix in the final main campain mission, mass recall wasn't very useful there, whereas annother soldier in the fight would have been. For cripes sake you can see him fighting in the corner of the screen at the ending cinimatic, and his entire faction is controlled by a different character because the game expects you to call him into battle!:smalltongue:

[nightwyrm]

Do you guys put points into the auxiliary functions (higher initial supply, faster building, faster shield regen) much? I mean, sure, they're basically there just for leftover points but do you guys find they make any difference in your games?

[Draconi Redfir]

no idea. i topped them all off the moment i got them and kept them there the whole time, so i can't really say what it'd be like without them.

[Olinser]

Do you guys put points into the auxiliary functions (higher initial supply, faster building, faster shield regen) much? I mean, sure, they're basically there just for leftover points but do you guys find they make any difference in your games?

They're generally worthless. Shield regen is ok, and construction can be useful if you're building a lot of defenses, but supply is almost worthless because pylons are cheap and you are never supply blocked at the start of a mission anyway.

[VoxRationis]

I have another complaint about the story—not so much about the story itself so much as the way it was shown to us. Why does Blizzard forget about 90% of the units when the time comes to do cutscenes? With the exception of the LotV trailer, we never see High Templar (or any other caster units) in cutscenes. According to the cinematics, roaches don't exist, and neither do marauders or stalkers. Space battles are only rarely shown, and when they are, mutalisks are always rock to everyone else's scissors for some inexplicable reason. We are never treated to the very cinematic-worthy Colossus or Immortal (two units that pretty much embody the Protoss philosophy to battle), and Dark Templar are never shown to be cloaking (even Zeratul just sort of runs into shadowy spots when he wants to disappear). After giving us all these fun and powerful units in-game, the developers seem to think the best way to showcase war in the Starcraft universe is to only show tier 1 infantry units.

[Almarck]

I have another complaint about the story—not so much about the story itself so much as the way it was shown to us. Why does Blizzard forget about 90% of the units when the time comes to do cutscenes? With the exception of the LotV trailer, we never see High Templar (or any other caster units) in cutscenes. According to the cinematics, roaches don't exist, and neither do marauders or stalkers. Space battles are only rarely shown, and when they are, mutalisks are always rock to everyone else's scissors for some inexplicable reason. We are never treated to the very cinematic-worthy Colossus or Immortal (two units that pretty much embody the Protoss philosophy to battle), and Dark Templar are never shown to be cloaking (even Zeratul just sort of runs into shadowy spots when he wants to disappear). After giving us all these fun and powerful units in-game, the developers seem to think the best way to showcase war in the Starcraft universe is to only show tier 1 infantry units.

It's better than Warcraft 3.


The only units shown at all are footmen, grunts, infernals, and wisps. The undead aren't shown at all despite being the most common antagonist faction you meet.


And the wisps, the weakest units in the game killed a god. Foot men take no damage or suffer I'll effects ergo, footmen should kill gods but lose to infernals.

As a general rule, this is because animating full cutscenes is a lot of work. Blizzards standards of cinematics while very high are time consuming to animate.


Basic units are preferred as they don't require as much work as making lite of different units.

[Icewraith]

Whatever else Blizzard did or did not screw up, Artanis' speech before the last battle was absolutely brilliant writing. It was similar enough to the one he gives in the WoL campaign mission, especially the beginning of the speech, to make me go "oh **** they're going to lose anyways", and then as the differences emerged, to give me more hope.

I really wish Blizzard had figured out the graphical changes they made in LotV earlier, the Taldarim would have been much more distinct in WoL for instance. They really did a good job in giving each Protoss faction a distinct identity, you could make a unit roster for each Protoss hero for Co-op for instance without too many duplicates. Compare this to HotS, where they just duplicated many of the building upgrades and made you choose one (I can't have speedlings with adrenal glands? What?!), and never gave you the chance to use units like the old Guardians even though the Primal Zerg certainly got to make use of them. I think they made too many changes to the zealot, though, the battleaxe thing really weirds me out.

Anyways, you could totally have Whatsisbucket the Evil Taldarim as a field-controllable Protoss hero and no spear of Adun, with a selection of the Taldarim units in co-op for instance.

That mode really could have gotten a bit more love. The two Taldarim world missions in particular could be easily converted to co-op, the first is also reminiscent of that colony mission from WoL only the daylight phase isn't just killing buildings. The second has that interesting tug-of-war mechanic. Converting the protect-the-Terrans mission into one where alternating players' armies (but maybe not workers or unit-producing buildings or construction, to give the stunned player something to do) get stunned would result in another potentially interesting mission- especially if to win the mission and stop the stunning you need to take objectives on opposite sides of the map. I also think a mode based off the terrazine gas mission from the WoL campaign would be solid.

[Almarck]

It's easily likely the coop mode for the meanwhile is just a sampling or prototype to test the waters to see fan reaction before more dev imean is spent on expansions. We only have 5 Maps and 6 heros. It's relatively simple to add more.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

By warp core do you mean Deploy Pylon? Because that ability is pretty crappy. It costs a ridiculous 75 energy and you can accomplish the same thing by just bringing a probe along with a strike force and dropping a pylon right outside your attack location so it's done before you start so you can use energy on abilities that will actually win you the fight faster and with fewer losses. If you meant Warp Harmonization that's even worse because it occupies the same tier as the stupidly useful Orbital Assimilator, which should be used 100% of the time.I mean warp harmonization which lets you use warp tech for your non-gateway units, and just use three probes per assimilator, because really you should be doing that anyway, and warping a trio of Collossi into the middle of combat is too lulzworthy to not do. You can send out your army early, and continue reinforcing it by using the sentry that can project power. Deploy Pylon is cheap. Not that there's anything else worth having on that line, although if you have the spare solarium at least you can get a few free units with it no extra charge.


Mass Recall is worthless. I literally only used it once in a replay for the achievement. It is useful in exactly ONE situation - if you are attacking and you were too dumb to leave static defenses or a defense force behind. In which case it's still terrible because Fenix will slaughter any strike force himself and has the added benefit of being useful on offense by utterly crushing bases. A single Solar Lance or Fenix will wipe out any strike force on any map that attacks you, all Mass Recall does is delay your victory. Even Shield Overcharge is more useful because that basically guarantees a successful base destruction with few losses.You and I must play very differently, because Fenix is completely and totally worthless. I tried him once. He's stuck where he spawned. Utter waste of so many resources. Just use Solar Lance to take out invasions. Mass Recall, on the other hand, is frequently useful when you have the 'hit these five disparate areas in a time limit' BS so you go one direction, recall and head to the other direction. It's a pretty huge time saver.

[Olinser]

I mean warp harmonization which lets you use warp tech for your non-gateway units, and just use three probes per assimilator, because really you should be doing that anyway, and warping a trio of Collossi into the middle of combat is too lulzworthy to not do. You can send out your army early, and continue reinforcing it by using the sentry that can project power. Deploy Pylon is cheap. Not that there's anything else worth having on that line, although if you have the spare solarium at least you can get a few free units with it no extra charge.

You and I must play very differently, because Fenix is completely and totally worthless. I tried him once. He's stuck where he spawned. Utter waste of so many resources. Just use Solar Lance to take out invasions. Mass Recall, on the other hand, is frequently useful when you have the 'hit these five disparate areas in a time limit' BS so you go one direction, recall and head to the other direction. It's a pretty huge time saver.

... you must have dropped him in a spot where there were no enemies around then. You can't control him, he's a neutral unit who autoattacks. You drop him in the center of an enemy group and watch him wipe them out.

Fenix single handedly wipes out entire bases defenses. Assuming he has the same stats as when you control him in the hero mission, his Whirlwind does 60 damage per second and his AA does about another 60 per hit (100 v armored), and he lasts the entire duration on any difficulty but Brutal, when he still lasts a good 20+ seconds until killed. He will single handedly slaughter any ground force sent at you in any mission and will crush any static emplacement you drop him at. And I think those numbers are low for ability summon Fenix, because he rips through everything in short order.

Any mission you have multiple targets its far faster to just go target to target than waste energy on a recall and go to a different target. None of the time limits are even noticeable on any difficulty but Brutal, and even then they aren't that tough as long as you have appropriate abilities and units.

[Draconi Redfir]

just want to say this; Not impressed with the campain archive's resources. i went to replay the final mission with fenix, and when i went to the spear of adune's systems, i found that it only gave me maybe half the solarite i gathered in the campain total. i had to re-load an autosave just to get my actual resources. not cool.

[Almarck]

just want to say this; Not impressed with the campain archive's resources. i went to replay the final mission with fenix, and when i went to the spear of adune's systems, i found that it only gave me maybe half the solarite i gathered in the campain total. i had to re-load an autosave just to get my actual resources. not cool.

Yeah I noticed that too much to only gives you the default amount of Solarite you receive for winning instead of factoring objectives.

It's kinda cheap.

Was the masters archives needed because HotS was over powered because of that?

[nightwyrm]

Sounds like a bug to me. The ppl on battle net forum also complaining about it.

[Icewraith]

I mean warp harmonization which lets you use warp tech for your non-gateway units, and just use three probes per assimilator, because really you should be doing that anyway, and warping a trio of Collossi into the middle of combat is too lulzworthy to not do. You can send out your army early, and continue reinforcing it by using the sentry that can project power. Deploy Pylon is cheap. Not that there's anything else worth having on that line, although if you have the spare solarium at least you can get a few free units with it no extra charge.

You and I must play very differently, because Fenix is completely and totally worthless. I tried him once. He's stuck where he spawned. Utter waste of so many resources. Just use Solar Lance to take out invasions. Mass Recall, on the other hand, is frequently useful when you have the 'hit these five disparate areas in a time limit' BS so you go one direction, recall and head to the other direction. It's a pretty huge time saver.

I think how you approach Brutal depends entirely on how good your micro and macro actually are. No-probe assimilators gives you faster early minerals and faster vespene, and the ability to take extra vespene early (instead of waiting for another nexus to warp in) since the Protoss are so gas heavy. With more resources and one less thing to worry about when it comes to managing probes and bases, it's easier to focus on pushing objectives early and there's fewer opportunities for a moment of inattention to result in half your army getting eaten.

I haven't started my Brutal playthrough yet, but so far I'm a big fan of the ability to Chrono Surge a carrier and a half out over a matter of seconds. The only real disadvantage to carriers is they take so long normally and placement is key, otherwise they're similar to broodlords in that the campaign AI and static defenses really don't know how to handle them. Also, the old trick of parking an arbiter behind your carriers and shredding any detectors (which are mostly the aforementioned air defenses) that are too close still works (so far). Additional uses for Chrono Surge include getting your mineral line up and running fairly early (your first 75 energy) so you can use your Nexus boost on a production building, getting all the Immortals (your choice of flavor but the Taldarim ones require no micro), and... uh... that's all I really used it for.

The stargate/robo warp tech still seemed to have a huge cooldown (so I didn't really see the point), but I guess the warp in would still be advantageous if you were willing to build three or four of those buildings each instead of just chrono surging one.

Instead of mass recalling I just warped in some Dark Templar on top of some static defenses and that usually kept my base safe. Or dropped Fenix on them. It's hard to predict which strategies will stay good in Brutal and which will need to change.

[VoxRationis]

I can't help but wonder what happened to Nova and/or Tosh. Nova, as a top operative of the Dominion, was almost assuredly pulled back to help fight the Swarm offscreen during HotS, which gives her a pretty good chance of being dead by the time LotV begins. Tosh... is in worse trouble than that. LotV pits you against spectres more often than ghosts. Spectres are distinguished from ghosts by the color of their psionics, which are red instead of the typical blue (something shared with the psionics of anything Amon-aligned or possessed). Spectres use terrazine, which in LotV is established to enable a link to Amon, and, if I recall correctly, are referred to as hearing voices. There's a pretty good chance that Tosh, along with all active spectres, were dominated by Amon when he started making more overt moves, and thus probably died ignominiously in one of Artanis' fights against Amon's Terran forces.

[Artanis]

I can't help but wonder what happened to Nova and/or Tosh.

Nova's alive (http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/blog/19954442) (scroll down to "mission packs")

[Anxe]

Yeah, presale of the Nova mission packs just started. What you said about Tosh and the Spectres makes perfect sense; however, I think Tosh is too good a character to kill off-screen. He'll probably show up as an antagonist of Nova in the mission packs. Something along the lines of "Amon's spirit is still possessing him so he's still trying to destroy the universe through his remaining scraps."

[GolemsVoice]

That actually makes a lot of sense. I was thinking they used Spectres because they are the more "evil-looking" version of the two, but now that you mention it...

[Draconi Redfir]

As the first Spectar though it's possible that Tosh was able to resit Amon's call in much the same way the preserver of the spear of adune did, possibly finding a way to isolate or sever himself from Amon's influance.

either way i hope Tosh is still alive and kicking, they confirmed his mission being picked was canon in HoTS, so i'd hate to see his future appearances be limited to that one scene.

[GolemsVoice]

Well, he could always ally with Nova and try to get his spectres back from Amon, or gather what is left after Amon's defeat. Judging by the trailer, Nova seems to be in a somewhat tight spot, and it would make sense that she'd be desperate for allies.

[Almarck]

You'd be honestly surprised how many people ship those two....


I think it has to do with EU stuff I don't know of.

[Dienekes]

You'd be honestly surprised how many people ship those two....


I think it has to do with EU stuff I don't know of.

Really? People ship everything. They're weird and somewhat creepy like that.

That said, looking through their wiki, apparently they hooked up in Ghost School, in what reads like a bad teen romance drama.

[Draken]

Amon and his forces have ample access to and make extensive use of Terrazine, which is needed for the creation of spectres. Mobius Corp electing to use the psionic soldiers that are mind-addled by evil space opium isn't too far fetched.

[Icewraith]

As the first Spectar though it's possible that Tosh was able to resit Amon's call in much the same way the preserver of the spear of adune did, possibly finding a way to isolate or sever himself from Amon's influance.

either way i hope Tosh is still alive and kicking, they confirmed his mission being picked was canon in HoTS, so i'd hate to see his future appearances be limited to that one scene.

I think they go with whatever mission you picked in your last woL campaign save. When Nova showed up in my HotS game, she said "thanks for helping me out with my Tosh problem". It's still ambiguous.

Terrazine shouldn't cause someone to be possessed by Amon, since Alorak was high as a kite off of it after the "preparations" mission and he was still fine.

[Almarck]

No, there's apparently an official canon for WoL and the breakdown is follows:

Jim Raynor defeated Selendis when she came to purge the Infested and supported Tosh's Spectres.

[GolemsVoice]

I think they go with whatever mission you picked in your last woL campaign save. When Nova showed up in my HotS game, she said "thanks for helping me out with my Tosh problem". It's still ambiguous.

Terrazine shouldn't cause someone to be possessed by Amon, since Alorak was high as a kite off of it after the "preparations" mission and he was still fine.

That could be a Protoss thing, though, since there are clearly Terrans under Amon's control.

[Draconi Redfir]

I think they go with whatever mission you picked in your last woL campaign save. When Nova showed up in my HotS game, she said "thanks for helping me out with my Tosh problem". It's still ambiguous.

Terrazine shouldn't cause someone to be possessed by Amon, since Alorak was high as a kite off of it after the "preparations" mission and he was still fine.

really? i did a playthrough of wol followed by annother of hots and got matt saying "our associate Tosh..." and showing him in the background for one scene even after i supported nova in the wol mission... i think... idk...

[Dienekes]

really? i did a playthrough of wol followed by annother of hots and got matt saying "our associate Tosh..." and showing him in the background for one scene even after i supported nova in the wol mission... i think... idk...

They're both kind of right. If you side with Nova or Tosh it changes all of 1 line of dialogue in HotS.

However the Devs in interviews have said that if they do go to explore Tosh and Nova further it will be as if Raynor sided with Tosh. They're not Bioware they're not gonna make large changes to the game for a bit of continuity.

But then again they also said that Zeratul would be the main character of LotV and they changed their minds. So, who can say what it will actually be when/if they continue to explore Tosh.

[Olinser]

So after a bit of a break to play other games, I came back to finish the campaign on Brutal, I'd previously done like the first 4 or 5 maps to get to the Spear of Adun, and then took a break to play some other games.

I was massively disappointed. It was so easy to exploit the OP units and Spear of Adun abilities that with knowledge of the maps and world order, I tore through the entire remaining campaign in a single day. Only the last map is left, and that's only because I'm heading to sleep, that one shouldn't be any harder.

I mean it just wasn't challenging. A couple levels were ANNOYING because of timers, but those were actually the easiest levels because you can blow through them with OP units and never come close to the timer.

I mean there was just no change on Brutal. It was basically just more enemy units periodically attacking you and more units milling around in their bases, and the friendly AI (when they were present), were just as useless as before. Nothing made you change strategy from Hard, which at least had the Hard level achievements to add some spice to it.

I was just really disappointed with how easy it was to beat. To actually be challenging you'd have to self-handicap yourself by intentionally not using some units or Spear abilities, and that's never really been my thing. If players have to handicap THEMSELVES to add challenge to the game, you made it too easy.

[Gandariel]

On a non-campaign note, I've tred a bit of ranked ladder.

6 wins, two losses.

Lost to a diamond toss who taught me that Disruptors one-shot Stalkers, and to a Diamond terran who taught me that with Liberators, you can't really take certain engagements.

Luckily, my best strat (zealot Archon +massive storm usage) seems to still be working fine


Also, I was told the actual Brutal mode was " play Brutal and get all the achievements"

[Dienekes]

Disruptors can 1 shot a ridiculous number of units, to the point that they almost replace both colossus and high templar. Especially since they're ability costs no mana and doesn't require an additional upgrade to get.

High Templar can still be a bit useful since especially against late game terrans since they can stim and then dodge disruptor shots, while psionic storm is at least partially instantaneous, plus feedback on medivacs is still very powerful. But yeah, I'd suggest putting a few disruptors in your army and trying them out, once you get the hang of their use (and don't accidentally shoot your own zealots which I have done more than I would like to admit) they are ridiculously strong against any mass ground army.

[The Glyphstone]

Question about the Archives - if I missed out on some Solarite in a mission, can I collect it by replaying that mission in the Archive?

[Olinser]

Question about the Archives - if I missed out on some Solarite in a mission, can I collect it by replaying that mission in the Archive?

I believe you are supposed to be able to, BUT, there are some well known problems with Solarite in the archives that I don't believe have really been fixed. A lot of people have noted that they have less solarite than they are supposed to when playing Archive missions.

Honestly I'd recommend just not finishing a mission unless you have gotten all the Solarite. They're all easy to get, even on Brutal.

[The Glyphstone]

I believe you are supposed to be able to, BUT, there are some well known problems with Solarite in the archives that I don't believe have really been fixed. A lot of people have noted that they have less solarite than they are supposed to when playing Archive missions.

Honestly I'd recommend just not finishing a mission unless you have gotten all the Solarite. They're all easy to get, even on Brutal.

I barely managed to grab one solarite cache and beat the mission (Harbinger of Oblivion, the one where you have to smash four crystals before Kerrigan's bases dissolve in evil red lightning), playing on Hard. I'm clearly doing something wrong.

I guess I can just revert to an early save, drop the difficulty to Casual, and scoop up the Solarite that way. Then I'll replay on high difficulties for the achievements.

[Olinser]

I barely managed to grab one solarite cache and beat the mission (Harbinger of Oblivion, the one where you have to smash four crystals before Kerrigan's bases dissolve in evil red lightning), playing on Hard. I'm clearly doing something wrong.

I guess I can just revert to an early save, drop the difficulty to Casual, and scoop up the Solarite that way. Then I'll replay on high difficulties for the achievements.

Uhm, don't take this the wrong way, but how can you not get them? This is one of the easiest solarite missions, it literally just takes 1 probe to walk up to the spots and activate the solarite, there aren't even forces defending them, all 3 of them are right next to bases you have to destroy anyway.

Some of the solarite side quests are a little tougher, but this isn't one of them.

[The Glyphstone]

Uhm, don't take this the wrong way, but how can you not get them? This is one of the easiest solarite missions, it literally just takes 1 probe to walk up to the spots and activate the solarite, there aren't even forces defending them, all 3 of them are right next to bases you have to destroy anyway.

Some of the solarite side quests are a little tougher, but this isn't one of them.

Mainly because I wasn't looking for them, honestly, I was so hyper-focused on the objective...I really, really hate time-based missions and SC2 is full of them. My replay worked perfectly and you're right, they were right there and accessible once I figured out where they were.

[Olinser]

Mainly because I wasn't looking for them, honestly, I was so hyper-focused on the objective...I really, really hate time-based missions and SC2 is full of them. My replay worked perfectly and you're right, they were right there and accessible once I figured out where they were.

Ah, OK so it worked out then.

If you're not sure where/how to get solarite you can always ask, I got full 300 on Brutal so I can give you strategies/tips if you need them.

[Traab]

This is one thing that bugged me about the big ending. Basically, I was hoping to see the whispers of the void vision quest thing that zeratul gave to raynor way back in the terran campaign. You know, the last mission where you hold out as long as possible, and as everyone dies they keep crying out "How could we have known?!?!?!" Only this time, with a big old alliance including the zerg and terrans working together, they would be powerful enough to fight back. I also expected more team ups pre epilogue. I mean good lord, thats sort of what the entire overarching story was about. Instead it was all, "Ok, we will fight alongside you for say... two missions? Then go away and not see you again." I LIKED the missions with things like, kerrigan is trying to "hold back" the void energy emissions while your protoss troops try to clear the way through everything. Or the first epilogue mission, those were awesome. I wanted to see more of them. Hell, a part of me expected the trilogy to end with the protoss forces agreeing to team up with the zerg and terrans for the final campaign against amon.

All that being said, I truly understand the anger with the second epi mission. Because in literally every other mission like it, the ai bases were at least slightly capable of taking care of themselves for awhile. In this mission right from the bat they are getting torn up unless you send whatever pitiful ball of marines or tanks or whatever you can produce in the short time you are given. Even the mission where the spear of adun is slowly being blown up isnt as bad, because once again, the allied bases are fully capable of holding off the first couple waves. And by the time they CANT you have enough troops built up to reinforce them. Of course, its not helped by me disliking the terran race in general. I love zerg or protoss, terran? Not so much.


... you must have dropped him in a spot where there were no enemies around then. You can't control him, he's a neutral unit who autoattacks. You drop him in the center of an enemy group and watch him wipe them out.

Fenix single handedly wipes out entire bases defenses. Assuming he has the same stats as when you control him in the hero mission, his Whirlwind does 60 damage per second and his AA does about another 60 per hit (100 v armored), and he lasts the entire duration on any difficulty but Brutal, when he still lasts a good 20+ seconds until killed. He will single handedly slaughter any ground force sent at you in any mission and will crush any static emplacement you drop him at. And I think those numbers are low for ability summon Fenix, because he rips through everything in short order.

Any mission you have multiple targets its far faster to just go target to target than waste energy on a recall and go to a different target. None of the time limits are even noticeable on any difficulty but Brutal, and even then they aren't that tough as long as you have appropriate abilities and units.

Fenix reminds me of the ultimate kerrigan power ups at the end of her campaign. You know, summoning a leviathon, or calling down like 40 primal zerg units right smack dab in the middle of an enemy base. (That one was my favorite) I loved her so much. Chain lightning, banelings, and primal zerg meant she was a literal one woman army. Charge right at the enemy base, have your banelings burn down whatever the heck was blocking the choke point, summon primal zerg as deep into the base as possible, and cackle maniacally as everything is torn to shreds. But basically, fenix was like that. A nice massive weapon to unleash hell on the enemy and make things almost giggle worthy easy in an instant.

[Olinser]

This is one thing that bugged me about the big ending. Basically, I was hoping to see the whispers of the void vision quest thing that zeratul gave to raynor way back in the terran campaign. You know, the last mission where you hold out as long as possible, and as everyone dies they keep crying out "How could we have known?!?!?!" Only this time, with a big old alliance including the zerg and terrans working together, they would be powerful enough to fight back. I also expected more team ups pre epilogue. I mean good lord, thats sort of what the entire overarching story was about. Instead it was all, "Ok, we will fight alongside you for say... two missions? Then go away and not see you again." I LIKED the missions with things like, kerrigan is trying to "hold back" the void energy emissions while your protoss troops try to clear the way through everything. Or the first epilogue mission, those were awesome. I wanted to see more of them. Hell, a part of me expected the trilogy to end with the protoss forces agreeing to team up with the zerg and terrans for the final campaign against amon.

All that being said, I truly understand the anger with the second epi mission. Because in literally every other mission like it, the ai bases were at least slightly capable of taking care of themselves for awhile. In this mission right from the bat they are getting torn up unless you send whatever pitiful ball of marines or tanks or whatever you can produce in the short time you are given. Even the mission where the spear of adun is slowly being blown up isnt as bad, because once again, the allied bases are fully capable of holding off the first couple waves. And by the time they CANT you have enough troops built up to reinforce them. Of course, its not helped by me disliking the terran race in general. I love zerg or protoss, terran? Not so much.



Fenix reminds me of the ultimate kerrigan power ups at the end of her campaign. You know, summoning a leviathon, or calling down like 40 primal zerg units right smack dab in the middle of an enemy base. (That one was my favorite) I loved her so much. Chain lightning, banelings, and primal zerg meant she was a literal one woman army. Charge right at the enemy base, have your banelings burn down whatever the heck was blocking the choke point, summon primal zerg as deep into the base as possible, and cackle maniacally as everything is torn to shreds. But basically, fenix was like that. A nice massive weapon to unleash hell on the enemy and make things almost giggle worthy easy in an instant.

It's that coupled with the fact that for some reason they disabled being able to build on allied creep. So not only is the allied Zerg base completely incapable of defending itself against the FIRST WAVE without at a minimum using Kerrigan, you can't put bunkers down. At least the Protoss base you can fortify with cannons and Artanis makes a heck of a meat shield, so they're actually semi-useful. But the Zerg are so worthless I actually found it easier to just straight up let the Zerg base die and use the time it takes to fortify the cliff above them than constantly losing troops out in the open defending them.

[The Glyphstone]

Any tips for the final Aiur mission? The achievement wants me to preserve all three allied Nexuses, but on Hard, I couldn't even keep them up to the 50% progress mark. I needed to call in a Spear attack of some kind every single wave or bring my army to defend (especially Alarac, that moron loves to charge out alone into the middle of huge Roach balls and die instantly), so when they launched a strike on all three sides at once, I got breached and overrun.

[DaedalusMkV]

It's that coupled with the fact that for some reason they disabled being able to build on allied creep. So not only is the allied Zerg base completely incapable of defending itself against the FIRST WAVE without at a minimum using Kerrigan, you can't put bunkers down. At least the Protoss base you can fortify with cannons and Artanis makes a heck of a meat shield, so they're actually semi-useful. But the Zerg are so worthless I actually found it easier to just straight up let the Zerg base die and use the time it takes to fortify the cliff above them than constantly losing troops out in the open defending them.

Really? I admit, I was playing on Hard rather than Brutal, but I found the absolute opposite. The Zerg only ever needed a bit of help until the absolute end to defend their base, maybe the occasional Kerrigan-shot or a small defensive force, and with that little bit of help they never ran into trouble and Zagara kept rocking right until the end. The Protoss, on the other hand, folded instantly if I wasn't constantly babysitting them at every moment, Artanis got himself killed by trying to bodysurf into the enemy horde no matter how much I tried to protect him and the Protoss in general were about as useless as a wet paper bag at keeping the enemy out. When the Zerg had a decent-sized deathball going along with a solid number of Crawlers, the Protoss seem to think that three Zealots, a Photon Cannon and a Colossus is a perfectly viable defensive force...

[Almarck]

Any tips for the final Aiur mission? The achievement wants me to preserve all three allied Nexuses, but on Hard, I couldn't even keep them up to the 50% progress mark. I needed to call in a Spear attack of some kind every single wave or bring my army to defend (especially Alarac, that moron loves to charge out alone into the middle of huge Roach balls and die instantly), so when they launched a strike on all three sides at once, I got breached and overrun.

Do it on Normal? The achievement is doable on Normal.

And what I did was despite missing 75 solarite for stuff was use monolith creep to act as a defensive supplemental line and reinforce every 3 Monoliths and 2 Shield batteries on a single Artosis Plyon.


I mean, the only reason not to do it in normal is if you want to just skip to a Hard run.

[The Glyphstone]

Even without the allies, though, I clearly got my ass kicked around 49% (in retrospect, this was probably not the best mission to be teching to Carriers for). Monoliths are nice, but they get shredded by swarms, and the Zerg here swarm like crazy. I guess I'm looking for the best force mix to survive (particularly since I won't have orbital support from the Spear after 50%); if I have to surrender my outer perimeter to win, I'll do it; I only drop to Normal or Casual to hunt specific achievements I'm missing (generally the rush ones); Hard is my default difficulty otherwise.

[Olinser]

Any tips for the final Aiur mission? The achievement wants me to preserve all three allied Nexuses, but on Hard, I couldn't even keep them up to the 50% progress mark. I needed to call in a Spear attack of some kind every single wave or bring my army to defend (especially Alarac, that moron loves to charge out alone into the middle of huge Roach balls and die instantly), so when they launched a strike on all three sides at once, I got breached and overrun.

Uhm, that's not the Hard achievement. The Hard achievement is killing the Brutalisk. Which is really easy to do, all you need is Time Stop and a decent force of either Void Rays or Carriers. Glide over the water to where he is, time stop and kill him, then back away, shouldn't even lose a unit as long as you have 8-10 carriers or 15-20 void rays.

The 'don't lose allied nexuses' can be completed on Normal.

For tips on that mission in general, abuse the ever loving **** out of Karax. Immediately wall him in with cannons so he doesn't run out and dieand put a production facility of whatever you are going to mass produce near him (Stargate for me). Now it has the benefit of his 1000% speed increase and all your cannons/Monoliths around him get the Attack Speed buff. Then fill out the area around him with Monoliths so they get his Attack Speed buff and put a few cannon/shield batteries up front for a wall so that waves don't hit the Karax wall cannons. Keep 1 probe there to replace cannons up front and you can ignore that side for the rest of the game (Karax's base actually produces Colossi which makes him hold ridiculously easily). This works even on Brutal, the Karax wall holds right up until the final mass rush.

Now you only have to deal with 2 areas. Use Spear of Adun abilities on the first couple waves, Fenix is particularly good and wipes out an entire wave himself and there's no reason to save them because you lose them throughout the mission. That gives you time to build up and with Karax mass producing your forces you should get max supply pretty easily, and then just spam cannons/shield batteries at the entrances with Monoliths behind them and replace them as they get destroyed, park a couple Colossi behind each line for zergling crushing. Big waves and fleet attacks you'll need to help the entrances with, but again, now you only have to worry about 2.

If you have spare minerals just start building more Monoliths behind your wall.

If you wall Alarak in with cannons he won't charge out, but he won't really use his AOE wave of doom, so it's a tradeoff. I basically walled him towards the back so he served as an 'oh crap need to kill everything fast before they get through' button. The DT is pretty worthless, I didn't even bother trying to protect her.

On Hard I personally just spammed Carriers and split them into 2 groups and parked each group over my cannon/monolith wall with 2 colossi on each. Never came close to a breach on any of the 3 sides.

[The Glyphstone]

My point was that I try to do even the Normal-grade achievements on Hard, if I can. Most of the actual Hard-grade achievements are speed-runs I'm really not skilled for/suited to, my micro is absolutely awful.

Abusing Karax worked excellently, though - I completely forgot about his aura of construction win, because I only ever controlled him once in that hero mission and his mind-control ability was far more relevant than his phase-smith aura. Got the Brutalisk and protected all three Nexuses by the skin of my teeth.

[Douche]

Zeratul has the most badass quote ever uttered in any video game:

"You speak of knowledge, Judicator? You speak of experience? I have journeyed through the darkness between the most distant stars. I have beheld the births of negative-suns and borne witness to the entropy of entire realities... Unto my experience, Aldaris, all that you've built here on Aiur is but a fleeting dream. A dream from which your precious Conclave shall awaken, finding themselves drowned in a greater nightmare."

[Olinser]

My point was that I try to do even the Normal-grade achievements on Hard, if I can. Most of the actual Hard-grade achievements are speed-runs I'm really not skilled for/suited to, my micro is absolutely awful.

Abusing Karax worked excellently, though - I completely forgot about his aura of construction win, because I only ever controlled him once in that hero mission and his mind-control ability was far more relevant than his phase-smith aura. Got the Brutalisk and protected all three Nexuses by the skin of my teeth.

You shouldn't just give up on them. Most of the speed runs are easily done by abusing the stupid OPness that is DT. Most of the speed runs are easily completed by waiting a few minutes, building up 10 or so DT, and then winning by going up to bases, hitting Q, walking away and waiting for the cooldown, hitting Q, repeating.

[Draken]

You shouldn't just give up on them. Most of the speed runs are easily done by abusing the stupid OPness that is DT. Most of the speed runs are easily completed by waiting a few minutes, building up 10 or so DT, and then winning by going up to bases, hitting Q, walking away and waiting for the cooldown, hitting Q, repeating.

I think he meant abandoning Vorazun's hero unit to die because she is just not that impresive compared to the other two.

[Douche]

I guess I missed the part of the topic where the conversation swung to game mechanics... While we're on that subject, what do you guys think of Zeratul in HotS? I honestly only played in the beta, and then my computer broke, but he was my favorite hero to use.

[Anxe]

Probably best to go to the Heroes of the Storm thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?391180-Heroes-of-the-Storm-(Closed-Beta-Begins-13-Jan)) to discuss that.

[Olinser]

I think he meant abandoning Vorazun's hero unit to die because she is just not that impresive compared to the other two.

I think you're confusing who is saying what in the conversation, the DT's hero's uselessness was pointed out by me like 3 posts back.

He stated he didn't think he had the micro to do most of the hard achievements, I pointed out that you don't need particularly good micro to abuse the overpowered DT for the first 2/3 of the campaign.

[The Glyphstone]

The AI heroes in general are just useless it seems, very frustrating. I managed to stomp my way through Epilogue 1 on Hard thanks to stupid OP Spear powers, and the AI could at least hold their own until my deathball rolled up. But Epilogue 2 just seems to see both allied bases melt near-instantly. I'm thinking I'll have to just cede the entire low ground and bunker up the ramp from the start.

[Draconi Redfir]

yeah it's quite annoying. Personally from a storytelling perspective i beleive it'd be much more interesting if both of them could hold their own against whatever came their way, so you had three armies protecting three fronts, each unique but united in their common goal to protect the only hope they have of defeating amon!

if you want to make it so you're not JUST focusing on your own base and some interaction between you three occours then i personally would have gone with a sort of sacrifice mechanic.

like, maybe amon sends a very large force to you, if the computer calculates that you don't have enough defences to take them out, or if you just plain start loosing troops and buildings, then one or both of your allies will send in some aid. Maybe if you loose 10+ units Zagara will send some troops via instant nidus worm to support you, and if you start loosing 6+ buildings, Artanis will warp in some troops to help out or something like that. BUT! as a result of this, them sending troops to you drains their own resources and makes them unnable to defend wholely against a wave in the future, meaning you will need to aid them. So as long as you can hold your own you will be fine, but if you begin to waver too much, then your allies will suffer for it.

or alternatively, everyone holds their own for a majority of the time, but every so often (as in, not every damn time) a wave comes in that they can't handle on their own, and you need to send a small contingent of troops over to help them. simmilarly, these super-waves will also target you, and one or both allies will sent a small ammount of troops to help you out as well.

just don't make me babysit a freaking 800+ year old immortal blue alien and a giant-ass bug with a bazzillion bodies thanks to hive mind:smallmad:

[Olinser]

The AI heroes in general are just useless it seems, very frustrating. I managed to stomp my way through Epilogue 1 on Hard thanks to stupid OP Spear powers, and the AI could at least hold their own until my deathball rolled up. But Epilogue 2 just seems to see both allied bases melt near-instantly. I'm thinking I'll have to just cede the entire low ground and bunker up the ramp from the start.

I wouldn't advise giving up the bases right off the bat. While sure, they lose on their own, the Zerg especially produces a LOT of units that actually clean up pretty well if you can kill the big threats, and it is very, VERY hard to hold off double waves from the bottom yourself.

A couple tips for Epilogue #2:

1) Immediately send a marine out to collect the mineral/gas pickups, 1 marine can get them all before any waves hit and this massively increases the speed at which you can get economy going

2) Immediately salvage the bunker on the hill above the Zerg/Protoss base, that coupled with the first mineral pickup lets you expand immediately and gets your economy roaring.

3) If you find yourself in desperate need of gas you can exploit the game mechanics and destroy one or more of the Protoss/Zerg gas collection and immediately build a Refinery there. The AI production isn't actually affected by this, and autocollection means that it will go on its own for the whole game.

4) The first wave at the top can be held by that single bunker/siege tank as long as you use Kerrigan to kill the Thor before it gets to you. Likewise the first wave against the Zerg base the Zerg hold easily without help as long as you kill the 2 Thors with Kerrigan. Then you shouldn't really need Kerrigan much other than Thrashers. If you aren't going for the achievement then picking out a couple big units every wave with Kerrigan makes it much, much easier. Kill any Siege Tanks or Thors in a wave and the Zerg base doesn't even need help to hold until the end (If you don't use Kerrigan they get crushed, though).

5) Planetary Fortresses are better than bunkers. When you factor in the marine/marauder cost they are only slightly more expensive than a full bunker, but because they have much higher HP and won't die with a couple SCVs repairing them, 2 PFs by the Protoss entrance with one unit of the Siege Tank mercenaries and a couple missile turrets holds for the bulk of the game without losing anything, while if you use bunkers a lot of bigger waves will succeed in killing a bunker so it constantly drains your resources to replace it.

6) The enemy DOES NOT use any kind of Cloak detection. That, coupled with the fact that Banshees come with the upgrade that allows them to do AOE line damage, makes mass Banshees probably the most efficient use of supply. They're fast so they can quickly jump between entrances, you can cloak them so you don't lose any, and they do AOE damage to wipe out mass waves. I messed up when I did it earlier and forgot to re-que Viking production so I lost the protoss base and then the game at like 98%, but I'll finish it later tonight with no problems. Banshees + Vikings is clearly the way to go for the Hard achievement.

It is supposedly also possible to completely wall off an entrance with Spectres, which apparently have the permacloak upgrade (haven't confirmed this myself), in hold position and the enemy can't get past them and simply stands there getting killed. I don't like this personally because if you have any AOE attacks (Siege Tanks or Planetary Fortresses) the Spectres will get hurt and start to die, but apparently it is possible.

[Olinser]

yeah it's quite annoying. Personally from a storytelling perspective i beleive it'd be much more interesting if both of them could hold their own against whatever came their way, so you had three armies protecting three fronts, each unique but united in their common goal to protect the only hope they have of defeating amon!

if you want to make it so you're not JUST focusing on your own base and some interaction between you three occours then i personally would have gone with a sort of sacrifice mechanic.

like, maybe amon sends a very large force to you, if the computer calculates that you don't have enough defences to take them out, or if you just plain start loosing troops and buildings, then one or both of your allies will send in some aid. Maybe if you loose 10+ units Zagara will send some troops via instant nidus worm to support you, and if you start loosing 6+ buildings, Artanis will warp in some troops to help out or something like that. BUT! as a result of this, them sending troops to you drains their own resources and makes them unnable to defend wholely against a wave in the future, meaning you will need to aid them. So as long as you can hold your own you will be fine, but if you begin to waver too much, then your allies will suffer for it.

or alternatively, everyone holds their own for a majority of the time, but every so often (as in, not every damn time) a wave comes in that they can't handle on their own, and you need to send a small contingent of troops over to help them. simmilarly, these super-waves will also target you, and one or both allies will sent a small ammount of troops to help you out as well.

just don't make me babysit a freaking 800+ year old immortal blue alien and a giant-ass bug with a bazzillion bodies thanks to hive mind:smallmad:

I mean that's actually what they do in all missions except for the 2 'defend X location' missions' (defend the Keystone and defend Kerrigan). In any other mission they appear they actually do quite well. In the Purifier missions the purifier forces effortlessly crush the Zerg bases even on Brutal, in the mission with the disruptions the Terrans effortlessly hold their bases against everything but the Hybrids and actually send pretty respectable forces against the enemy bases, and in the Amon mission when you clear the base spots they send reasonable forces against the crystals you can take advantage of.

In the 'defend' missions it does make sense from a strategic standpoint that you'd have to help them. And they aren't useless - it is much harder to defend any entrance if they are actually destroyed. It's just really annoying that on higher difficulties they are incapable of defending even against early waves on their own. But they're still somewhat useful as meat shields.

[The Glyphstone]

Alright, final epilogue mission. The void crystals are air units - should I just build a mass Muta ball, since I can't get Corruptors? Kerrigan with a Roach escort seems strong enough to teleport around and fend off the attacks on my base, though I'm not sure how long I have until Amon eats my primary hive. At least the NPCs arent entirely useless this time.

[Olinser]

Alright, final epilogue mission. The void crystals are air units - should I just build a mass Muta ball, since I can't get Corruptors? Kerrigan with a Roach escort seems strong enough to teleport around and fend off the attacks on my base, though I'm not sure how long I have until Amon eats my primary hive. At least the NPCs arent entirely useless this time.

They are attackable by ground units. In fact, if you have Broodlords, they will actually fire at the Void Crystal if it is floating away from land, actually doing impact damage but the broodlings won't spawn. Which looks really weird.

There are quite a few strategies you can use to win pretty easily, but they all have pretty much the same theme - Kerrigan spamming AOE heal. For the first few minutes spread creed EVERYWHERE. Kerrigan can transport mass forces to creep so having it all over the map is essential.

If your unit control is good enough to do it while still building up economy, on Hard Kerrigan can actually solo a couple crystals early before they start to get a lot of defenses (she can actually solo 4-6 on Normal).

Strategies that are pretty easy:

1) Mass mutas can work, they're fast and they shred the crystals. However, you'll lose a decent amount killing crystals because they have relatively low HP compared to the amount of enemies around

2) Broodlords are pretty safe. 15+ and Kerrigan destroy the crystals pretty easily because it is absolutely surrounded by broodlings and the units spend a lot of time firing on the Broodlings instead of on the Broodlords.

3) The most mindless is just mass Ultralisks. They have the Torrasque strain and are almost indestructible with Kerrigan spamming her heal.

[The Glyphstone]

Sounds like I don't need anti-air at all, then?

[Olinser]

Sounds like I don't need anti-air at all, then?

You know honestly I don't even recall the enemy using an air unit ever. In fact, if you are going mass mutas or broodlords, any crystal that is over the center area is basically a free kill.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Hydra-roach works well as a ball around Kerrigan as well... heck, that's typically what I did during HotS. I forget if the campaign has splitter-roach or vile-roach, but either way has benefits. splitter-roach gives you extra bodies for enemies to shoot at, vile-roach is just plain awesome.

[The Glyphstone]

Broodlords worked. I did get hit by enemy air units, a fair amount of them, but luckily Xel'Kerrigan's chain lightning chews through them super fast.

Mixed feelings about the ending. Glad most people got a happy ending (hopefully). Can't wait for the mission packs - Nova is up first, but what I really want to get is a mission pack with Fenix Prime/Talandar, on his journey of self-discovery.


Anyone tried the co-op mode yet? It looks like a lot of fun, but I'm not sure I want to be diving in alongside randoms that I need to depend on for victory.

[Olinser]

Broodlords worked. I did get hit by enemy air units, a fair amount of them, but luckily Xel'Kerrigan's chain lightning chews through them super fast.

Mixed feelings about the ending. Glad most people got a happy ending (hopefully). Can't wait for the mission packs - Nova is up first, but what I really want to get is a mission pack with Fenix Prime/Talandar, on his journey of self-discovery.


Anyone tried the co-op mode yet? It looks like a lot of fun, but I'm not sure I want to be diving in alongside randoms that I need to depend on for victory.

It's OK. The problem is that the AI is just not challenging. The 'commander' choices are very confining because you don't even have access to all of the units from the races, so you are put in a fairly small box that you can play from.

All of the maps basically boil down to 'Kill enemy units at X location (or kill them before they get to X location)' as they periodically spawn.

I mean its OK for a couple matches but there's very little replay value.

[The Glyphstone]

I noticed that - there seems to be one 'infantry/swarm' and one 'mech/heavies' commander for each faction, pidgeonholing you into the specific type of deathball you are going to build.

[Dienekes]

Broodlords worked. I did get hit by enemy air units, a fair amount of them, but luckily Xel'Kerrigan's chain lightning chews through them super fast.

Mixed feelings about the ending. Glad most people got a happy ending (hopefully). Can't wait for the mission packs - Nova is up first, but what I really want to get is a mission pack with Fenix Prime/Talandar, on his journey of self-discovery.


Anyone tried the co-op mode yet? It looks like a lot of fun, but I'm not sure I want to be diving in alongside randoms that I need to depend on for victory.

I played a few by myself and a few with a friend. They're fine. Nothing special. The biggest problem is, to make the commanders more diverse they're all basically stripped of all but 1 or 2 optimal builds that you will do for every single map. Rayner is always going to make a marine/marauder ball, Artanis is going for a ground warpgate heavy army, Swann is goliath/tank, and so on. The maps themselves are fun, but a bit repetitive after you've played them all. They're essentially dumbed down versions of either popular or important missions in the SC2 campaign, such as the train level, or a base defense level.

Overall, I've only lost 2 so far, the first time I ever played one and the time my internet disconnected. Of course I'm going on Hard difficulty, maybe it's a lot more challenging on Brutal.

But yeah, I think it would have been better if each commander had more toys to work with in the game, then some additional focuses to go on. There are definitely enough variations of Protoss units in LotV alone to get 3 commanders each without repeating a unit except probes and observers. HotS gave the Zerg unit variations for 2 commanders. It would take some work, but I think they could come up with some cool things for one additional Zerg commander (maybe inspired by the primal zergs?), and two variations for Terran.

[The Glyphstone]

For that matter, why did they take Warp Prisms out from the campaign mode as a playable unit? The enemy Protoss use them all the time...I can understand why they didn't have Observers, since the enemy used no Cloaked campaign units so detectors weren't needed (though I would have liked cloaked scouts). But playing with no air transport was very odd.

[Dienekes]

For that matter, why did they take Warp Prisms out from the campaign mode as a playable unit? The enemy Protoss use them all the time...I can understand why they didn't have Observers, since the enemy used no Cloaked campaign units so detectors weren't needed (though I would have liked cloaked scouts). But playing with no air transport was very odd.

My assumption was that they thought since the first ability that you get for the Spear of Adun creates a power field that the main purpose of the Warp Prism was made obsolete. That said, I still would have added it in, just to keep the option to move or protect a unit with micro was still available.

[Olinser]

For that matter, why did they take Warp Prisms out from the campaign mode as a playable unit? The enemy Protoss use them all the time...I can understand why they didn't have Observers, since the enemy used no Cloaked campaign units so detectors weren't needed (though I would have liked cloaked scouts). But playing with no air transport was very odd.

Because there are too many levels that you could not be allowed to use Warp Prism's on without making it laughably easy. They'd have to disable Warp Prisms for certain levels, and that would be really annoying to unlock Warp Prisms as a unit and then not be able to use them the very next mission.

[GolemsVoice]

The coop mode is indeed so-so, a nice idea but lacking in practice. Maybe they're going to polish it up, though. One thing that really irks me is how generic the missions are. I'm fine with recycling campaign missions, but why do they have to be so bland? Also, why couldn't they be bothered to record at least a few lines of banter, like they did for the start of HotS matches? Instead we get "Greetings, person. It is a fine moment for killing enemies. We shall destroy their thing."

[Anxe]

They're starting to add in that banter slowly. The person who gives the mission talks now and the players have little things they say when they lose a lot of units or have their economy attacked. I'm sure it'll get to the point you want eventually but it is unfortunate that it wasn't like that at release.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I have not, and will never, do co-op. If I wanted to play multiplayer, I'd go Ladder. I want to play the campaign because I don't want to have to deal with random putzes in my game. This is counter-productive to my game playing style.

[Draconi Redfir]

Broodlords worked. I did get hit by enemy air units, a fair amount of them, but luckily Xel'Kerrigan's chain lightning chews through them super fast.

Mixed feelings about the ending. Glad most people got a happy ending (hopefully). Can't wait for the mission packs - Nova is up first, but what I really want to get is a mission pack with Fenix Prime/Talandar, on his journey of self-discovery.


i'm hoping for Niadra myself. she's the broodmother Kerrigan put on a protoss ship with the goal of "Kill all protoss"

Never mind that as far as i'm aware the warp drive is down, meaning that ship is likely traveling below the speed of light and is likely going to be isolated for quite awhile, which would be an awsome story/idea in of itself. Plus watching these completely isolated organisms develop their own ecosystem just to sustain themselves as no new biomatter or energy is entering the system. But add in the "kill all protoss" base instinct they've been given? Have these things land on a planet decades or centuries into the future when either the Zerg have been forgotten about or they've evolved to the point of barely registering as Zerg (Possibly even figuring out how to use some of the leftover protoss tech) and you'd have an awsome setup of a whole bunch of even more alien creatures pouring out of the wreckage, suddenly finding themselves in what to them appears to be a situation of infinate food (assuming the planet has life on it) and potentually re-igniting the Zerg Vs Protoss war.

Man i would pay to see that. that sounds awsome!

[Dienekes]

I have not, and will never, do co-op. If I wanted to play multiplayer, I'd go Ladder. I want to play the campaign because I don't want to have to deal with random putzes in my game. This is counter-productive to my game playing style.

I will say, of the games I've played (only around 10-12 with randoms admittedly) I have yet to meet one putz. Really people are just silently building their armies and grabbing the targets. And really, once your commander is level 5ish you can probably solo-run Hard at least. It's really not that hard a game.

[GolemsVoice]

i'm hoping for Niadra myself. she's the broodmother Kerrigan put on a protoss ship with the goal of "Kill all protoss"

Never mind that as far as i'm aware the warp drive is down, meaning that ship is likely traveling below the speed of light and is likely going to be isolated for quite awhile, which would be an awsome story/idea in of itself. Plus watching these completely isolated organisms develop their own ecosystem just to sustain themselves as no new biomatter or energy is entering the system. But add in the "kill all protoss" base instinct they've been given? Have these things land on a planet decades or centuries into the future when either the Zerg have been forgotten about or they've evolved to the point of barely registering as Zerg (Possibly even figuring out how to use some of the leftover protoss tech) and you'd have an awsome setup of a whole bunch of even more alien creatures pouring out of the wreckage, suddenly finding themselves in what to them appears to be a situation of infinate food (assuming the planet has life on it) and potentually re-igniting the Zerg Vs Protoss war.

Man i would pay to see that. that sounds awsome!

It would also be a nice way to re-introduce the old "devour everything, kill everybody" swarm of old without bending the story beyond recognition.

[Draken]

You make it sound like Zagara is all friendship and roses.

[The Glyphstone]

No, but she does obey orders, and the last order she was ever given by her Queen was effectively to not let the new Swarm become the same as the old Swarm.

[Olinser]

No, but she does obey orders, and the last order she was ever given by her Queen was effectively to not let the new Swarm become the same as the old Swarm.

Yes, but how long is that going to last?

Zerg don't age. Zagara is going to be in charge of the Swarm until she is destroyed by somebody/something else.

How long is she going to respect Kerrigan's order?

50 years? 100? 1000?

What about when Niadra finally shows up to carry out the order to destroy the Protoss? Which side will Zagara take?

[Dienekes]

No, but she does obey orders, and the last order she was ever given by her Queen was effectively to not let the new Swarm become the same as the old Swarm.

Eh, the last thing she says to Zagara is "The Swarm is yours, remember our lessons."

Now, it's been a few years since I played HotS, but I remember most of Kerrigan's lessons weren't about being nice or living in peace and happiness with the Protoss and Terran, they were about long-term planning and how to be a devious bitch. I can definitely see Zagara eventually turning on her allies, if it offered her some major advantage in some way.

We have her, Niadra, Alarack, and the UED all out there ready to be future enemies. That's not looking at new characters that will be introduced within the various races with their own agendas and reasons for starting wars.

But the important thing to note is, we are now done with the Xel'Naga, and the Kerrigan/Raynor romance. Now we can ignore all that boring stuff and go back to the cool stuff from SC1 space politics and everyone backstabbing each other. Woo!

[Draken]

No, but she does obey orders, and the last order she was ever given by her Queen was effectively to not let the new Swarm become the same as the old Swarm.


Yes, but how long is that going to last?

Zerg don't age. Zagara is going to be in charge of the Swarm until she is destroyed by somebody/something else.

How long is she going to respect Kerrigan's order?

50 years? 100? 1000?

What about when Niadra finally shows up to carry out the order to destroy the Protoss? Which side will Zagara take?

More importantly.

What does that mean, not being the same as the Old Swarm? Not being an endless, ravening host bend on taking over everything? Not being enslaved to alien gods who don't have the zerg's interests at heart? Not colapsing into a structure where all zerg serve a single overriding intellect and can scarcely exist without it? Kerrigan also told Zagara to remember her lessons, which given her arc in HotS would mean "have an actual plan for your existance instead of being little more than a glorified animal out to survive in the wild".

[The Glyphstone]

Maybe she'll be influenced by the Primal contingent and their philosophy?

So many different ways the New Swarm could go. Definitely ain't gonna be sunshine and roses, for them or anyone else.

[Draconi Redfir]

We have her, Niadra, Alarack, and the UED all out there ready to be future enemies. That's not looking at new characters that will be introduced within the various races with their own agendas and reasons for starting wars.


Remove Zagara and we have Niadra, Alarack, and the UED. Zerg, Protoss, Terran. at least two of wich are on the move. Put them into a new sector of space and make them fight.

maybe Niadra lands on a planet near the one Alarack colonizes and starts to attack. then the UED get involved somehow, same teams, radically different tech and units.

i'd buy it.

[The Glyphstone]

What's the UED doing here, though? The original expeditionary force was wiped out by the Queen of Blades at the end of Brood War. Why might Earth send out another fleet into a sector that already ate one fleet without a trace?

[Traab]

What's the UED doing here, though? The original expeditionary force was wiped out by the Queen of Blades at the end of Brood War. Why might Earth send out another fleet into a sector that already ate one fleet without a trace?

Messages were sent back, telling them of the untold resource rich worlds in this new sector of space, revenge for the bitch queen that destroyed their people, blah blah, there are so many different ways they could be brought in that its almost not even worth coming up with them.

[GolemsVoice]

New commanders thinking that they can fight old battles better than the rest? A dire need for ressources, with the Koprulu sector already all set up? Revenge?

Thing about Zagara is, I'd like the Swarm to change. The Swarm has come a long way, and I would like if it stayed that way, and not just went back to the olden days of just annihilating everything. They don't have to be nice about it, but I think the last battles thaught Zagara the value of cooperation. She's not going to throw that aways just for a small gain.

That's why I think introducing new people, or new leaders, as mentioned above, is a good idea. You can drive the plot forwards without basically undoing what you fought two games to achieve.

[Dienekes]

What's the UED doing here, though? The original expeditionary force was wiped out by the Queen of Blades at the end of Brood War. Why might Earth send out another fleet into a sector that already ate one fleet without a trace?

Citizens of the United Earth Directorate, my fellow humans. The outlying human colonies have lost all control over the sector. Our reports that the tyrannical Mengsk has been overthrown in a bloody coup masterminded by the Queen of Blades. The leader of the Zerg, the same Zerg menace that destroyed the fleet of Admiral DuGalle five years ago.

What is worse, reports have indicated that Mengsk's son has allied with these monsters. It is as we feared, the turmoil of the colonies must be purged. The zerg must be annihilated. For the safety of our mighty civilization and to free our lost brothers from the threat of their own sinister government.

We go to war, once more, to face unnatural horrors spat out of the blackest pits of the galaxy. But we go wiser, stronger, and we will rid the galaxy of this threat so that they can terrorize no human be they our families or our long lost colonists ever again.


Remove Zagara and we have Niadra, Alarack, and the UED. Zerg, Protoss, Terran. at least two of wich are on the move. Put them into a new sector of space and make them fight.

maybe Niadra lands on a planet near the one Alarack colonizes and starts to attack. then the UED get involved somehow, same teams, radically different tech and units.

i'd buy it.

Only small problem I have with it is, as a die-hard Protoss, there's no way I could stand a campaign from the point of view of Alarack and his ilk. Stupid evil for the sake of stupid evil, at least he had the decency to be at least sarcastically amusing.

[Olinser]

What's the UED doing here, though? The original expeditionary force was wiped out by the Queen of Blades at the end of Brood War. Why might Earth send out another fleet into a sector that already ate one fleet without a trace?

They presumably had reports from the initial UED successes about the sector - the rich natural resources, the technologically inferior humans there, and the potential biological weapons of the Zerg. They just don't know what happened at the end. It would not be a shock for them to at least send a scout to see what happened, and with that information decide the sector to be ripe for re-invasion.

Also, Stukov is still kicking around. It would be perfectly plausible for him to contact the UED.

[The Glyphstone]

They presumably had reports from the initial UED successes about the sector - the rich natural resources, the technologically inferior humans there, and the potential biological weapons of the Zerg. They just don't know what happened at the end. It would not be a shock for them to at least send a scout to see what happened, and with that information decide the sector to be ripe for re-invasion.

Also, Stukov is still kicking around. It would be perfectly plausible for him to contact the UED.

That could definitely be interesting, and I wonder what his motives would be. He certainly seemed to resent being infested, though I think a lot of that was actually resentment at the Dominion using him for a lab monkey. Do you think he has any lingering loyalties to the UED, or would he just be luring in more food for his new people, the Zerg?

[Olinser]

That could definitely be interesting, and I wonder what his motives would be. He certainly seemed to resent being infested, though I think a lot of that was actually resentment at the Dominion using him for a lab monkey. Do you think he has any lingering loyalties to the UED, or would he just be luring in more food for his new people, the Zerg?

Hard to call, he just doesn't appear enough post-infestation to really tell how much it affected his original character.

I'd lean towards him being loyal to the UED, but Zagara/Niadra could be using his Zerg nature to try and mind control him to work for them, resulting in an extremely conflicted character.

[The Glyphstone]

True. Smells like another mission pack.

Though another story I want to see is the one-year interim period between the end of HotS and the beginning of LotV, with Valerian, Horner, and Raynor trying to straighten out the Dominion. Sure, we saw the real story with the evil, tyrannical emperor being overthrown and murdered by the protagonist who went to extra lengths avoiding civilian casualties. But from the outside, especially with a half-decent propaganda machine, what it looks like is Valerian instigating a coup against his dad, with the monstrous Zerg as his allies/mercenaries. Arcturus loyalists must have been all over the place, even if it didn't devolve into a full-on civil war.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I will say, of the games I've played (only around 10-12 with randoms admittedly) I have yet to meet one putz. Really people are just silently building their armies and grabbing the targets. And really, once your commander is level 5ish you can probably solo-run Hard at least. It's really not that hard a game.

It's not the difficulty, it's the principle. I play games because I don't WANT to socialize at the moment. I highly resent being forced to. Yet another reason LotV is such an enormous pile of stinking refuse. Seriously, it's like they switched directors mid-trilogy, fired Joss and hired Michael Bay to do the third one.

[Anxe]

Then why are you here talking about it?

[Draconi Redfir]

What's the UED doing here, though? The original expeditionary force was wiped out by the Queen of Blades at the end of Brood War. Why might Earth send out another fleet into a sector that already ate one fleet without a trace?

i was more thinking this is a different sector. like, Starcraft takes place is the "Korpoulu" sector or whatever it's called. So, with their contact to the rebellious colonies gone, the UED sets up new colonies the next sector over. then Alarack and the tal'darim show up and start laying claim to some planets. a few years later and Niadra's protoss ship drifts into space and crashes on a UED planet and start to eat everything. The Tal'darim, not expecting the Templar to come this far think it to be an attack against them, or otherwise investigate, causing Niadra's brood's inner programming of "Kill all protoss" to kick in. MEanwhile the UED are pissed that these aliens are fighting on their planets, and get into the fray.

[Dienekes]

It's not the difficulty, it's the principle. I play games because I don't WANT to socialize at the moment. I highly resent being forced to. Yet another reason LotV is such an enormous pile of stinking refuse. Seriously, it's like they switched directors mid-trilogy, fired Joss and hired Michael Bay to do the third one.

Now, wait a second. The self vs AI is unchanged, and adding a few new options to try and get more people involved is not a strike against them, even if the outcome was less than stellar.

The new units are definitely fun, and the various abilities that they opened up both in the multiplayer and campaign modes are fine.

Now, the campaign may not have been to your liking, but honestly, I don't think it's all that different from the problems they had in the first two. The writing is pretty melodramatic and stilted.

Going back to play the WoL and it's not really all that great. The principle is the same, ending each mission and wandering around your base to hear the snippet of dialogue from your companions. Swann, Tychus, Egon, and Tosh are all very stereotypical. And sure the story starts fairly interesting when you're trying to start a revolution, but eventually it gets caught up in the silly prophecy, the silly resurrection of Tassadar, and the rather shallow Raynor/Kerrigan romance.

HotS followed suit with a vaguely interesting set up (let's kill Mengsk, finally), only again to get dragged into the silly prophecy, Amon stuff, and the tragic romance of I don't care.

But here's the important note, in all that I said, the only parts that even involve the Protoss at all are the silly prophecy and doom stuff that was always in the background. They aren't otherwise important to the story that WoL and HotS were telling. Honestly, in many ways if the Protoss were not involved at all it would have been improved. So here we end up with this final chapter that has to focus on the Protoss. And because it was built up in the last two games we have to have that story be about Amon. Which is good, because, honestly, there was no other story that the Protoss have to tell as they're currently set up. The distrust of the Nerazim and the idiocy of the Conclave was dealt with back in Brood War.

So we have a whole bunch of random tangents that need to be tied up from the prophecies. The most annoying being that Kerrigan is required to beat Amon. Which has the very distinct problem that she is in no way Protoss in the Protoss game. Plus we've already had two games that were pretty much all about her.

As far as being a credible villain, honestly, Amon was about as bad as Mengsk was in WoL, in that he didn't ever successfully do anything to the protagonists. He does get a good trick on the rebels at the beginning of HotS, but again, nothing that actually makes him a credible threat.

Amon was much the same, he pulled two really good moves during his game, the rest is him being beaten piece by piece by the Protoss.

I guess my point is, I don't know what you're saying about the writing switching. It was always pretty bad. Some of it was enjoyable, sure, but I don't see how any of it rose above mediocre video game writing.

[Traab]

I think what bugged me the most was, Amon had this huge win at the very start of the expansion, he mind controlled everyone connected to the kala, which was all of the templar and various others. But then that was meaningless in the long run because it didnt change anything for our characters. "Oh look! here is a massive army of troops in stasis to explain why we havent lost access to half our forces for the rest of the game. "

[VoxRationis]

"Oh look! here is a massive army of troops in stasis to explain why we havent lost access to half our forces for the rest of the game. "

And, like always, it's treated as an unlimited supply of soldiers ready to fight and die. I feel like a good mechanic for both WoL and LotV would have been to have a campaign-level persistent force strength—something like 10,000 or 30,000 soldiers—that didn't come back without you jumping through a lot of hoops or spending resources. Something to make you think about every throwaway wave of zealots you would otherwise casually send to their deaths.

[GolemsVoice]

Eh, not really. I'm fine with limited troop supply within missions, but Starcraft has never really been about what you describe, and I feel the game would have lost by implementing such a mechanic.

[Draken]

That limit would lose all meaning the moment you finished the mission where you get Fenix/Talandar and thus got access to the fully robotic Sentinels.

Also, the protoss still do have that system where their wounded templar get teleported back to the ship (to get dragoned/immortalled/whatevered).

[Traab]

Eh, not really. I'm fine with limited troop supply within missions, but Starcraft has never really been about what you describe, and I feel the game would have lost by implementing such a mechanic.

I agree with you, I was just griping about how even amons big victory was rendered almost totally meaningless. "Oh, we are missing most of our army? Well gee! There is a giant ship with an unlimited army on call! Thank goodness for that or else there might have been an actual CONSEQUENCE in this story!"

[The Glyphstone]

I assumed the consequence was the lack of a breeding population. The worldship had enough troops to cap out your supplies in any given mission (gameplay-story segregation, yo), but there weren't enough warriors onboard to actually perpetuate the Protoss race if they couldn't free the rest of their people from mind control. "Unlimited size army" is clearly a gameplay conceit.

[GolemsVoice]

While I somewhat agree with you, Protoss do recycle their troops very well, and entire tribes join them during the campaign, so it's not like one worldship is all they have.

EDIT: Actually, the situation is much worse for Raynor, who can apparently magic up whatever out of one (1) battlecruiser. Have a fleet of Thors, everybody.

[Traab]

Heh, true, though maybe its less that he just happens to "have a fleet of thors" hanging around, and more that the hyperion has fabrication facilities, and as he progresses, he is able to get the schematics for these other devices. Its still silly from a realism standpoint, after all, spitting out battlecruisers should take years for each one. Not too mention, where is he even getting the materials to build them? Honestly, none of this stuff passes muster. We can at least pretend the protoss have star trek style energy to matter replicators to help them produce all their crap, and the zerg have the mysterious mutating biology that isnt easily disproven, but yeah, realism isnt a big important thing in starcraft.

[GolemsVoice]

Well, apparently minerals can become more or less anything ever, they're just that good.

[Traab]

Well, apparently minerals can become more or less anything ever, they're just that good.

Its starcraft dilithium. /nod. Powers the warp core, which in turn powers the energy to matter converters. It explains why you only need a generic mineral and some gas to do everything from train a marine, to building a tank.

[GolemsVoice]

Speaking of which, I recently got the collector's edition of LoV, and noticed that Valkyries are HUGE.

[Dienekes]

Its starcraft dilithium. /nod. Powers the warp core, which in turn powers the energy to matter converters. It explains why you only need a generic mineral and some gas to do everything from train a marine, to building a tank.

So now I'm picturing some kid being force fed a bunch of rocks than just swallowing and saying "I know kung fu"

[Traab]

Speaking of which, I recently got the collector's edition of LoV, and noticed that Valkyries are HUGE.

How huge? Because from what I figured, they are like more robust x wings that can morph into mechs. Like a siege tank that can grow arms and legs.

[GolemsVoice]

You're thinking of Vikings. Valkyries are the OTHER norse-themed flying unit. They originally appeared in Brood War. And they are about the size of an average barracks, I'd say, maybe a bit smaller.

[Traab]

You're thinking of Vikings. Valkyries are the OTHER norse-themed flying unit. They originally appeared in Brood War. And they are about the size of an average barracks, I'd say, maybe a bit smaller.

Oh yeah, them, The big time anti air air units on the side of the terrans. I remember them now. Never used them much too be honest. I guess the size makes sense, they need a heck of a lot of anti air weaponry to be effective, and use missiles instead of say, energy weapons.

[Artanis]

The units in-game are not the same size they are in-universe. If they were, then Battlecruisers would fill half the map and you'd still be unable to actually see anything smaller than a Siege Tank.

The buildings in particular are WAY out of scale. Consider that there were SC1 missions that were entirely contained within one base structure.

The various cinematics (especially the HotS one) give a better idea of many of the units' relative sizes.

[The Glyphstone]

And even that's not reliable, as evidenced by the magical shrinking Ultralisk in said HotS cinematic.

[nightwyrm]

So now I'm picturing some kid being force fed a bunch of rocks than just swallowing and saying "I know kung fu"

Don't forget the vespene gas.

Minerals + Gas + random convict = Terran army.

[GolemsVoice]

As far as I know they mostly stopped using convicts, at least for marines. Now, Marauders and Firebats seem to still consist of a large amount of resocialized criminals, with matching crimes.

[VoxRationis]

Supposedly. As I recall, Mengsk's Dominion was supposed to stop using forced conscription and brainwashed convicts, but it didn't really take. That said, that's one crime I can't really blame Mengsk for, considering the universe he lives in. After all, any leader of any state or faction in that setting needs a crap-ton of soldiers, and they have a ridiculous attrition rate—forced conscription is kind of mandatory in order to survive more than a few months in office. The Protoss have a caste system which forces a mandated portion of their population into battle, and a great deal of religious devotion to boot, but Terrans are somewhat more pragmatic—I could see enlistment as being pretty low. I'm frankly not sure how any human faction gets enough troops in that setting.

[GolemsVoice]

The official guidebook to the collector's edition says that the new dominion (after Mengsk) has stopped this practice. How much of that is true is another matter, since the book is written as an in-universe document. I also figure out the Marine Corp uses a lot of forced recruitment schemes, and likely also recruits from less than pleasant planets, which, in most cases, means they're hiring criminals one way or another.