Secondary Melee Barbarian

[Ardantis]

I'm fascinated by the role of secondary melee.

Secondary melee is generally NOT the primary damage-dealer. Secondary melee generally provides an upfront melee presence combined with one or more of the following:

-Survivability
-Tactical options (debuffs, protection, burst damage)
-Perception and reaction (surprise round presence)
-Mobility

Usually this falls to either a Paladin, or some Dex-based character. It is almost never a Barbarian- a class which is renowned for filling the role of primary melee.

Here's my inspiration (thanks to Krymoarskyhorn):

https://www.reddit.com/r/dndnext/comments/2ji303/the_class_is_a_lie_the_lil_chef/

Even though the Lil Chef is a flavor build, it functions quite well mechanically as secondary melee.

What's interesting about the Barbarian class is that the Barbarian receives very little synergy with Strength asides from Rage bonus damage, Rage Strength check advantage and the class capstone. However, he does receive an enormous amount of synergy with Dexterity from class features including Unarmored Defense, Danger Sense, and Feral Instinct.

What I'm suggesting is that a Barbarian who dumps Strength and prioritizes Dexterity fulfills three of the four main requirements of Secondary Melee: Survivability, Surprise Round Presence, and Mobility.

The Totem Barbarian is already difficult to kill in Rage from resistances plus high HD and Con: add in to the mix a max-or-near-max Unarmored Defense plus a Shield (because you aren't using a Great Weapon) and you have a fantastic bulwark. Danger Sense and you're protected from spells and other Dex saves as well.

Add in advantage on initiative checks from Feral Instinct to this high Dex and he'll almost always go first, and in the surprise round. Plus with Wisdom as a tertiary stat and with a background or racial choice he's likely to have a high Perception as well.

Additionally, abilities like Reckless Attack and Extra Attack work just as well with Dexterity as they do with Strength, so he'll be able to do consistent melee damage as well (or even use a bow!)

Finally, because that capstone is only half as effective with no focus on Strength, why not dip Rogue? The mobility from Cunning Action is sure to be a benefit in the more support role, and Expertise in Perception helps with Surprise Round presence.

Tell me what you think about this wacky idea!

[Know(Nothing)]

I like it! Take Eagle at 6th level for an amazing always-on scouting ability. If you don't want to burn a rage to tank, just take the Dodge action every round, and everyone you can see attacking you has disadvantage(which is everyone if you go Eagle.)

[Reosoul]

My only problem with any Dex Barbarian who intends to be on the frontline is that having a huge AC isn't going to help you "Tank". You don't draw aggro by being unhittable, and when the party is in a more open area of a fight, your lower damage and higher AC is just going to get you ignored by tactically savvy combatants like Hobgoblins or enemies with a competent leader among them.

A Barbearian, so far, is probably one of the best examples of a 'Tank'. Huge HP, mitigates his damage taken while still provoking his opponents to attack him(Reckless Attack+Rage), and generally getting hit with 2d6(or 1d12) of damage is aggressive enough to make most enemies not want to provoke OA's around him.

I like the idea of the Dex Barbarian, but mechanically speaking, it doesn't even seem remotely close to the option of going an Assassin/Thief Rogue who is much more flexible, or a Str Barb who fulfills the "front-line meat-shield" role better.

[Finieous]

Additionally, abilities like Reckless Attack and Extra Attack work just as well with Dexterity as they do with Strength, so he'll be able to do consistent melee damage as well (or even use a bow!)


Two comments:

1. No they don't.
2. Consistently terrible damage, yes.

Assuming a 65% hit chance, your 1d8+5 rapier attack will go from about 6 points of damage to about 8. The raging power-attacking barbarian with a greatsword will deal about 10 damage without Reckless Attack, but about 14 with it. It will scale up from there as rage damage increases, but already, Reckless Attack isn't working "just as well" with Dexterity. Add Polearm Master, and it gets truly ugly.

I'd ordinarily say the idea has more merit in a no-feat game (though in that case, play a rogue or spellcaster), but the build you linked to includes feats. "Secondary" melee is fine as a concept, but maxing out at 2*(1d8+5) attacks probably doesn't qualify for the role in most games. Super-high survivability is awesome, but you have to be a threat for it to be tactically relevant.

Obviously, characters don't need to be optimized. If you like the concept and think it will be fun to play, run with it. Just understand that your damage output is going to be worse than a cantrip-only spellcaster for much of the campaign. Since you brought up the subject, my advice would be to go the other way and play a rogue with a barbarian dip for the super-defense boost you can turn on a couple times a day.

[Ardantis]

I did erroneously believe that Reckless Attack applied to Dexterity attacks. My bad. Damage aside, if they had access to more ways of incapacitating opponents (like a Battlemaster Fighter) they'd be better in the secondary melee role.

There's another Dex Barb thread on the boards right now, and in that thread, Person_Man gets right to the point with the (obvious now) comment that Barbarians in 5e are MAD for Strength, Dex, and Con.

They get so much out of each stat that it's enticing to try and SAD them into one stat- but they need all three!

Like Paladins and Monks, they are better served by higher point buy / stat arrays.

Perhaps Dex Barb isn't a thing. But in my opinion, Barbarians benefit so much from high Dex that it's almost tied for a primary stat with Strength and Constitution.

[bid]

Perhaps Dex Barb isn't a thing. But in my opinion, Barbarians benefit so much from high Dex that it's almost tied for a primary stat with Strength and Constitution.
The first problem unarmored AC. Barbarian always wear medium armor because Dex14/Con20 is just as good as half plate or a breastplate+1.

The second problem is rage damage. Str16 already does +5 damage which would need Dex20 and level 8 to match. After that you'll lag 3 points behind (6 with both attacks).

Sure if you start 16/16 and get Dex20 at level 8, you will have AC18. But you 1d8+5 damage will get you ignored in favor of those who are easier to kill. Were you to wear an AC16 breastplate and do 1d8+8 or even 2d6+8 without shield, you'd still be twice as hard to kill than the softies but at least you'd be close by.

[Ardantis]

The first problem unarmored AC. Barbarian always wear medium armor because Dex14/Con20 is just as good as half plate or a breastplate+1.

The second problem is rage damage. Str16 already does +5 damage which would need Dex20 and level 8 to match. After that you'll lag 3 points behind (6 with both attacks).

Sure if you start 16/16 and get Dex20 at level 8, you will have AC18. But you 1d8+5 damage will get you ignored in favor of those who are easier to kill. Were you to wear an AC16 breastplate and do 1d8+8 or even 2d6+8 without shield, you'd still be twice as hard to kill than the softies but at least you'd be close by.

Yeah, but even with below max Strength (say, 16) you'd gain SO MUCH from Dex (saves and inititative) which are both modified by class features that you'd have a great chance of being first to act / last to die.

Sure, you're attacking and dealing damage with Strength to take advantage of Rage and Reckless Attack, but Dex is helping with positioning and survivability (also AC).

Dex Barb may not be a thing, but Dex primary Barb just might. Elven Barb.

[Finieous]

There's another Dex Barb thread on the boards right now, and in that thread, Person_Man gets right to the point with the (obvious now) comment that Barbarians in 5e are MAD for Strength, Dex, and Con.


I don't remember seeing that comment, but I definitely disagree. A barbarian doesn't need any more than Dex 14. Resistance is godly. Consider a fight with a troll. An AC 16 (Dex 14, Breastplate) barbarian attacking normally will take about 5.4 damage a round from the troll. An AC 20 fighter (Plate & Shield, or Dex 20, Shield & Defense Style) will take about 7.2/round. In fact, the barbarian can Reckless Attack and his damage taken per round goes up to about 7.5 -- equivalent to the AC 20 fighter. With your bear totem and your Feral Instinct, you're far less vulnerable to magical damage as well. And even on Con, your higher hit die is equivalent to a +2 Con compared to the fighter where hit points (including short rest recovery) are concerned. Honestly, barbarians are as "SAD" as any class in the game.

Moreover, even focusing on Strength, the barbarian is still an excellent scout. Wear a breastplate, get proficiency in Athletics, Perception and Stealth, get your Eagle Aspect and let Danger Sense and resistance do their work if/when things go sideways. You simply don't need a maxed out Dex to do that stuff well.

[Ardantis]

I don't remember seeing that comment, but I definitely disagree. A barbarian doesn't need any more than Dex 14. Resistance is godly. Consider a fight with a troll. An AC 16 (Dex 14, Breastplate) barbarian attacking normally will take about 5.4 damage a round from the troll. An AC 20 fighter (Plate & Shield, or Dex 20, Shield & Defense Style) will take about 7.2/round. In fact, the barbarian can Reckless Attack and his damage taken per round goes up to about 7.5 -- equivalent to the AC 20 fighter. With your bear totem and your Feral Instinct, you're far less vulnerable to magical damage as well. And even on Con, your higher hit die is equivalent to a +2 Con compared to the fighter where hit points (including short rest recovery) are concerned. Honestly, barbarians are as "SAD" as any class in the game.

Moreover, even focusing on Strength, the barbarian is still an excellent scout. Wear a breastplate, get proficiency in Athletics, Perception and Stealth, get your Eagle Aspect and let Danger Sense and resistance do their work if/when things go sideways. You simply don't need a maxed out Dex to do that stuff well.

Yeah but that doesn't take into account the fact that you could have even higher AC and survivability with a Dex build while still doing more than reasonable enough damage from Str.

I guess if it comes down to rocket tag, Strength always comes out on top. I'm saying that you don't need to max Strength to do damage well, just as you are saying that you don't need to max Dex to scout/go first/survive well.

What you're describing to me is a primary melee build. I'm asking- are Barbarians effective in mopping up other areas of combat and gameplay neediness? Or is a character with Dex maxed and Strength secondary an objectively inferior character to the conventional build?

[Finieous]

What you're describing to me is a primary melee build. I'm asking- are Barbarians effective in mopping up other areas of combat and gameplay neediness? Or is a character with Dex maxed and Strength secondary an objectively inferior character to the conventional build?

I think you can still do excellent damage without maxing Strength, but I don't think you gain all that much by maxing Dexterity. Specifically, I think you face sharply diminishing marginal returns raising Dex above 14. So whenever you have a chance to do that, look at the opportunity costs -- what other options could you choose instead -- and then compare what either choice would offer the character.

[Human Paragon 3]

Try splashing rogue for expertise in athletics and than using grabs and shoves to add utility to your melee strategy.

[Ardantis]

I think you can still do excellent damage without maxing Strength, but I don't think you gain all that much by maxing Dexterity. Specifically, I think you face sharply diminishing marginal returns raising Dex above 14. So whenever you have a chance to do that, look at the opportunity costs -- what other options could you choose instead -- and then compare what either choice would offer the character.

Fair enough.