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View Full Version : Can this concept be done through RAW or should I homebrew it?



elliott20
2007-05-23, 11:30 AM
I've had this concept in my head for some time and with all the new materials out there, I think it is possible to actually do it but I'm not sure what's the best way to do it. (By RAW or homebrew? through ToB discipline or Prestige Class? etc)

The basic idea is that this is a contemplative swordsman who can control his blade without actually holding it. In essence, a dancing sword is part of his standard skill sets.

hewhosaysfish
2007-05-23, 11:34 AM
Master of the Unseen Hand, maybe? I don't know it well but it's all about using Telekinesis.

Jasdoif
2007-05-23, 11:37 AM
Well, there's the everdancing (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/magicItems/weapons.htm#everdancing) epic magic weapon property...does that count?

Spiryt
2007-05-23, 11:40 AM
I can't see how to do it with existing classes/ skills.
He theorytically can be armless so it will be probably some PrC.
Try, it can be interesting!

(It will be definietly more "magick" class, as he we be able to do de fencing moves and slash hard without his muscless help. It can't be done with any telekinesis as far as I know).

elliott20
2007-05-23, 11:40 AM
I've been trying to post the fluff text to give everyone a better idea what I'm talking about but so far my posts keep on getting dropped. It's quite aggravating, to be honest.

elliott20
2007-05-23, 11:44 AM
The Shu Mountain Swordsman

During the age of philosophy, thousands upon thousands of schools of thought came into existence as each and every scholar offers up their own unique interpretation on ethics, humanity, life, etc.

A curious branch off of this movement was the rise of the martial scholars, a school of thought that attempts to bond the philosophical understand with their own martial practices. This practice endured beyond it's time, and managed to create a lasting tradition that persisted even through the age of martial art, a time in which martial arts flourished much like the age of philosophy.

One of these schools was the Shu Mountain swordsman, a school of thought that focuses not just on the usage and techniques of the blade, but ultimately, the more spiritual aspects of practice. The sword became not a tool for just bloodshed, but a means in which a person can transcend his own limits and humanity through meditation, practice, and contemplative thought.

elliott20
2007-05-23, 11:45 AM
As a scholarly kind of swordsman, many of the masters of the art have written volumes upon volumes of text detailing their beliefs, teachings, and philosophy towards the Shu Mountain swordstyle. The sheer size of literature available is quite daunting and is all stored within school's own library.

However, one piece of text has been regarded as the definitive and formulative philosophy behind the Shu Mountain sword.



It is believed by many of the great master swordsman, that the Shu Mountain sword is not just a fighting style, but a way of life. Like many of those masters, I have dedicated my entire life in this pursuit, almost obsessively trying to find the ultimate sword. The perfect strike, so to speak.

And yet, after 50 years of study, contemplation, and strife, I have came to this horrible realization:

There is no perfect strike.

No strike, by virtue of being a strike, can possibly be perfect. The need of the strike alone, has already tainted the very notion of perfection.

I have mapped out my own progression for those who will come after me to bare witness and perhaps learn from what meager wisdom I may have traded for with my youth.

There are 3 levels of swordsmanship:

1st level: You and your blade is one. Your blade is nothing more than an extension of limbs and it's manipulation is no more natural than use of your own hands. You strike like lightning, without hesitation and with blinding accuracy.

2nd level: Speed of thought. That is the crux of the second level. You understand now that all strikes stem not from the limb, the arm, or the body. But rather, it strikes from the mind. With the mind, the will and the heart is what initiates your strike and it is what guides the rest of you. That mind alone, is the source of the weapon. As such, you no longer need your blade. You don't even need a weapon. With your bare hands, you may strike at a foe from 100 paces.

3rd level: The end of thought. I came to realize and understand the nature of conflict and strife. With the very notion of conflict comes unending strife. The will of the blade begets more conflict and ultimately violence. To end that will, is to achieve ultimate peace, for if the will for conflict is what initiates the blade, then to release that will, is to attain ultimate mastery over the self once again. After all, if one were to strike without thought, one is not thinking. And without the will to strike, one will know peace. with that, he can feel the world around him, react to it in the most natural way. He is like the water, who parts and moves in a stream around his obstacles. There is no conflict, no strife, only knowledge of the world.

As of this writing, I am but a student of this world, and yet I can stop and marvel the vast depth of which this world offers. It is truly enlightening.

--- the late Master Hu Qiao, from his memoirs about his journey


Many have regarded this text as the formulative philosophy behind the Shu sword. As such, it has became the standard reading for many of the new students.

elliott20
2007-05-23, 11:47 AM
This, however, while being the most defining aspect, is not the most famous of this school.

That honor belongs to the Shu Mountain sword's most treasured technique, the flying sword.

The users of this technique has tapped into their consciousness and understood the very nature of the world, allowing them to gain control over their blade without even having to make physical contact with their weapon. Just by sheer manipulation of their chi, they can control their blade and use it to fight at a distance. As their technique becomes more and more refined, so does the strength and accuracy of their blade.

By the Master Hu Qiao's own record, by the time they have attained the second level of enlightenment, they no longer need a weapon to even control, allowing them to manifest the weapon through their own chi.

Many of the masters of the art have learned to use this chi and their blade to astonishing and jaw dropping effects.

Master Lien Yi, who was also known as the Blade Celestial, has on occasion STOOD on his own flying sword to achieve flight. Master Gung Shu, also known as the "Gladius Domini", pioneered a technique known as the "meteor shower", where he rained a thousand blades made of his own chi upon his foes.

These are the more prominant examples of the Shu Mountain sword's might. And with such prominant symbols to their name, it is no wonder that this school has managed to endure for such a long time.

Quietus
2007-05-23, 11:53 AM
Isn't there a Monk option out there somewhere that lets you use a sword? I know I've heard about it somewhere on these forums... I'd look at that, then go into Kensai. The Ride requirement is odd for a Kensai, but perhaps it can be worked into the character idea - and you can enchant your sword with the Dancing property, which would let it attack on its own for four rounds, solely because it's your signature weapon.

elliott20
2007-05-23, 11:55 AM
well, there is no ride requirement per se. I was just pulling images out of my head to put in there.

To be honest, I was completely expect myself having to go some wierd psionic warrior route or some such, but I'm not very familiar with psionics are how it works.

tsuyoshikentsu
2007-05-23, 11:59 AM
*Sigh*

Probably the closest you're gonna get is soulknife, but i feel sorry for oyu if you ever play that class.

elliott20
2007-05-23, 12:01 PM
You're gonna have to explain to me why that is.

Quietus
2007-05-23, 12:03 PM
well, there is no ride requirement per se. I was just pulling images out of my head to put in there.

To be honest, I was completely expect myself having to go some wierd psionic warrior route or some such, but I'm not very familiar with psionics are how it works.

A couple of things have been suggested; There was the Master of the Unseen Hand mentioned earlier (requires you be either a spellcaster or race with access to Telekinesis) that would let you manipulate a weapon more effectively through the use of that telekinesis, although some of the other options (telekinetic flight, and Fling Skyward) wouldn't fit your model too well without a fluff overhaul.

There's also what I mentioned, the Kensai prestige class. Which is where the mention of Ride came in; One of the prerequisites for Kensai is 5 ranks in Ride. It's the only prerequisite that doesn't make sense for it, IMO. This one essentially represents you making an oath to some other force/ideal/person (which could be your Shu Style stuff), and tying you to a single signature weapon, which you can add enhancement bonuses to at the cost of a (comparatively small) amount of experience. My suggestion was taking levels of Monk for the inward/ki focus, then qualifying for Kensai, and using those enhancement bonuses available to make your weapon a Dancing weapon, which would let it continue to attack as you do for four rounds after giving it a command word, without you having to hold it.

Roderick_BR
2007-05-23, 12:09 PM
There's this PrC in Complete Warrior, I can't remember the name, where you can give magic properties to your weapon of choice, as a normal spellcaster with the Create Magic Arms feat. You could add the dancing property to it, though you probably can't use the everdancing version.

Edit: Oops, Quietus already said it.

elliott20
2007-05-23, 12:10 PM
hmmm.... that's a surprisingly elegant solution.

What about the portion that focuses on the warrior without the sword? Would you think that should fall into the epic level stages where the character starts taking other classes?

Quietus
2007-05-23, 12:15 PM
hmmm.... that's a surprisingly elegant solution.

What about the portion that focuses on the warrior without the sword? Would you think that should fall into the epic level stages where the character starts taking other classes?

Fluff overhaul. Take the Quick-Draw feat, and instead of saying "I draw my weapon", say "I summon my weapon".

::Edit:: Let's look at a bit of math here.

Prereqs : concentration 5, Diplomacy 5, Ride 5, combat expertise, Weapon Focus, and BAB 5. Also, the above noted oath. Weapon focus will determine what type of weapon you can use for your signature weapon.

As a Monk, we're looking at entering the class after level 7. So 8 you enter, and by 13 you can cause your sword to dance. At 15, take Quick Draw for the above noted fluff overhaul.

Along the way, you pick up other abilities such as Power Surge (conc check as move action for a strength bonus), Ki Projection (bonuses to certain, mostly social, skills), Withstand (concentration check instead of reflex save, and evasion still applies), along with other minor abilities.

::Edit2:: There is, of course, always the option to enter through another class; Monk is by no means necessary. Other, full BAB classes would let you qualify earlier, if you can pick up Conc, Diplomacy, and Ride as class skills (which a Paladin could do). Monk7 to qualify lets you pick up the Ride as cross-class, though, without problems.

Person_Man
2007-05-23, 12:30 PM
You could also be a Duskblade or a Hexblade with an Item Familiar.

Or you could be a Hexblade with the Construct Familiar (Dragon Magazine) feat. Take an Animated Sword.

But I think I would go with a Cleric with access to the Spiritual Weapon or any similar spell (there are higher level versions of this in various supplements, but I don't remember the names). Stand inside of a Sanctuary or Calm Emotions or Blade Barrier or Repulsion spell, Summon weapons to fight for you while he calmly staring down your opponent. Maybe mix in some Fear effects, and you'll be set.

elliott20
2007-05-23, 12:54 PM
Hmm... the cleric method could actually work fairly well if I can find some way to work some of the more generic kungfu-esque skills in the mix. Maybe a level or two of monk or swordsage and then go into cleric...

Of course, the kensai method will yield a more martial oriented character, which means that the character will also have the secondary option of not using the dancing ability in case of emergency...

Fax Celestis
2007-05-23, 01:09 PM
What about Swordsage/Psychic Warrior(/Kensai, if desired), using the Call Weaponry (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070214a) variant? The mix of psionic powers with a few maneuvers would give you that "supreme martial artist" look you're going for, and the variant will let you focus on your weapon.

Ooh! Ooh! Swordsage 2/Psychic Warrior 5/Psychic Weapon Master (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040827d) X!

elliott20
2007-05-23, 01:17 PM
What about Swordsage/Psychic Warrior(/Kensai, if desired), using the Call Weaponry (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070214a) variant? The mix of psionic powers with a few maneuvers would give you that "supreme martial artist" look you're going for, and the variant will let you focus on your weapon.

Ooh! Ooh! Swordsage 2/Psychic Warrior 5/Psychic Weapon Master (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040827d) X!

I just took a look at this build... this is perfect. It's probably about as close as you can get. All I need to do is change up the fluff on some of the psychic warrior and psychic weapon master stuff and this will be gold.

Of course, I'm going to keep some of the other builds on the back burner since this is supposed to be a school with a bunch of different styles and interpretation.

Gnomick
2007-05-23, 01:17 PM
The basic idea is that this is a contemplative swordsman who can control his blade without actually holding it.
You can do this starting at 4th level with a Psychic Warrior and some powers from Complete Psionic.

There's a second level power called Extend Reach, which allows you to telekinetically wield your weapon up to five feet away from you, giving you an extra five feet of reach. It's a swift action power, so it's more like something you can just do. You can do this for 1 round, plus 1 round per power point.

There's a 3rd level power called Telekinetic Boomerang, which lets you instantly telekenetically recall your sword after throwing it. The sword returns fast enough to throw it again in the same round, and you can pull back your sword over and over again for the entire 1 round/level duration. This is also a swift action power.

Finally, there's a 4th level power called Psychokinetic Weapon, which lets you telekineticaly propel your sword through the air to attack without using up your actions. Unlike a dancing sword, a Psychokinetic Weapon can attack anything within close range (it flies at a speed of 20), and you add your wisdom bonus to the damage it deals.

You would probably also want to use an Expanded Knowledge feat to grab Telekinetic Thrust, so you can throw your weapon with the force of your mind. TK Thrust goes very very well with TK Boomerang. But if you want to go easy on your power points, Throw Anything might be a better choice.

As for skills, you can either be human, not dump Int, and take Open Minded a couple times; Or you could take the Fist Of Zuoken prestige class (a psychic monk Prc) instead of Psychic Warrior levels; Or you could multiclass Psychic Warrior with Sword Sage or Rogue.

If you aren't very familiar with psionics, just remember the two golden rules of psionics: you can't spend more power points than your manifester level; and you can only expend your focus for one thing at a time.

SydneyLosstarot
2007-05-23, 01:43 PM
there's also a Dancing Blade spell that makes the weapon Dancing

Closet_Skeleton
2007-05-23, 01:57 PM
I made a homebrew Prestige class that could call weaponry and use dancing weapons but it needed 9 levels in psion or wizard and the dancing ability came at 7th level.

So you're probably better off with Psi-warrior

Darrin
2007-05-23, 11:06 PM
The basic idea is that this is a contemplative swordsman who can control his blade without actually holding it. In essence, a dancing sword is part of his standard skill sets.

I guess I'm the only one that thought, "Hey, a 1st level bard with Mage Hand could do that."

And then there's this really long rantish train of thought about how the spell description doesn't explicitly say that Mage Hand *can't* attack, so why couldn't you stab someone with a sword? Assume a Str of what, 1, so maybe -5 to attack and damage? Yes, I think I'll just go over into this corner and mumble incoherently about how 1st level bards are of course all-powerful...

JellyPooga
2007-05-24, 03:47 AM
elliott20: As soon as I read your lengthy description of the ideas surrounding this character I immediately thought of the Warlock.

Why?

First off the mark, you have to ignore the alignment restriction that Warlocks have and just have a Lawful alignment (unless you particularly wanted to be Chaotic or Evil of course).

With that out of the way, here's the reasoning behind my thoughts:

1) Medium B.A.B - no worse than if you went Monk...not a problem. May have to take Martial Weapon Proficiency to be proficient with sword (though playing an Elf would provide this).

2) Certain Monk-ish abilities - namely DR and Fiendish Resilience (which I've always thought of as a kind of meditative state). Fits with the d&d monastic training that Monks have (the class, that is).

3) UMD speciality - I thought this fit the idea of this orders' ideas on overcoming the normal way of things through thought; by exerting their will, they can force things (magic items in this case) to react to them as if they were something/someone else.

4) Invocations - Another manifestation of this orders 'mind over matter' philosophy. Especially the ones that don't deal with the illusory/darkness stuff, like Leaps and Bounds and Baleful Utterance. You can even get the "Flying on your Sword" idea you mentioned in the form of Fell Flight(though it's probably available at an earlier level than you intended).

5) Eldritch Blast (+shape and essence) - This is your "Animated Sword". Just because there isn't a Focus for SLA's, doesn't mean to say that you can't impose one. Basically you say that unless you have a sword, you cannot use your Eldritch Blast...suddenly it has a Focus. At some higher level, you (more or less) arbitrarily say that you no longer need the Focus because you're "summoning" the blade. Applying Essences and Shapes to your Eldritch Blast represents the more impressive things you mentioned like the "Rain of Swords" (Eldritch Doom).

In short, change the flavour of the Warlock to fit your concept and you may be surprised at how well it fits. O.k. so the Warlock isn't considered the most "powerful" class in the world, but whoever cared about that when you have a fantasic idea for a character anyway...?

Leon
2007-05-24, 08:01 AM
Isn't there a Monk option out there somewhere that lets you use a sword?

Ebberon, its in the main book

elliott20
2007-05-24, 09:27 AM
elliott20: As soon as I read your lengthy description of the ideas surrounding this character I immediately thought of the Warlock.

Why?

First off the mark, you have to ignore the alignment restriction that Warlocks have and just have a Lawful alignment (unless you particularly wanted to be Chaotic or Evil of course).

With that out of the way, here's the reasoning behind my thoughts:

1) Medium B.A.B - no worse than if you went Monk...not a problem. May have to take Martial Weapon Proficiency to be proficient with sword (though playing an Elf would provide this).

2) Certain Monk-ish abilities - namely DR and Fiendish Resilience (which I've always thought of as a kind of meditative state). Fits with the d&d monastic training that Monks have (the class, that is).

3) UMD speciality - I thought this fit the idea of this orders' ideas on overcoming the normal way of things through thought; by exerting their will, they can force things (magic items in this case) to react to them as if they were something/someone else.

4) Invocations - Another manifestation of this orders 'mind over matter' philosophy. Especially the ones that don't deal with the illusory/darkness stuff, like Leaps and Bounds and Baleful Utterance. You can even get the "Flying on your Sword" idea you mentioned in the form of Fell Flight(though it's probably available at an earlier level than you intended).

5) Eldritch Blast (+shape and essence) - This is your "Animated Sword". Just because there isn't a Focus for SLA's, doesn't mean to say that you can't impose one. Basically you say that unless you have a sword, you cannot use your Eldritch Blast...suddenly it has a Focus. At some higher level, you (more or less) arbitrarily say that you no longer need the Focus because you're "summoning" the blade. Applying Essences and Shapes to your Eldritch Blast represents the more impressive things you mentioned like the "Rain of Swords" (Eldritch Doom).

In short, change the flavour of the Warlock to fit your concept and you may be surprised at how well it fits. O.k. so the Warlock isn't considered the most "powerful" class in the world, but whoever cared about that when you have a fantasic idea for a character anyway...?

Hmm... you make a very compelling argument there. And yeah, the power of the order is not really that much of a concern for me. (Though I do want them to be competent, I'm not all that interested in the crunch)

That is certainly an interesting take on the concept.

The reason why I was asking is because I'm currently in the process of creating a very short Wuxia campaign for my friends so they can try out the different ToB classes and features and I wanted initially to create a single NPC that follows the Shu Mountain style.

But seriously, with so many people giving me these ideas, I think I might just have the party go to the Shu Mountain itself and see all the different interpretations. After all, that's the idea I wanted to express: The different interpretation of martial arts.

I'm also thinking about working several different schools to add more color and credence to the idea of "age of martial scholars".

goat
2007-05-24, 09:34 AM
I guess I'm the only one that thought, "Hey, a 1st level bard with Mage Hand could do that."

And then there's this really long rantish train of thought about how the spell description doesn't explicitly say that Mage Hand *can't* attack, so why couldn't you stab someone with a sword? Assume a Str of what, 1, so maybe -5 to attack and damage?

Hmm, but that's its strength ability. Give for a light weapon, weapon finesse, sneak attack with it...

elliott20
2007-05-24, 09:36 AM
I guess I'm the only one that thought, "Hey, a 1st level bard with Mage Hand could do that."

And then there's this really long rantish train of thought about how the spell description doesn't explicitly say that Mage Hand *can't* attack, so why couldn't you stab someone with a sword? Assume a Str of what, 1, so maybe -5 to attack and damage? Yes, I think I'll just go over into this corner and mumble incoherently about how 1st level bards are of course all-powerful...
I might just use this just so I can use this line:
"Pay no attention to Wimp Lo, we purposely trained him wrong... as a joke"

elliott20
2007-05-24, 12:47 PM
Okay, so here are the builds people have suggested thus far. In this case, monk is interchangeable with swordsage.

Li Xiaoyao: Swordsage 7/Kensai X

He's the first Shu Mountain warrior the characters will meet. He's also the leader of the different interpretations of the Shu Mountain sword.

Lien Yi, the Blade Celestial: Swordsage 2/psychic warrior 5//psychic weapon master X

He's the leader of the order, and the authority of what constitutes the Orthodox thought of the Shu Mountain sword.

Master Gung Shu: Swordsage 2/Warlock X (I threw in a level or two of Swordsage/monk just to give it a more complete "fluff" feel)

Master Gung Shu is one of the most feared Shu Mountain warriors. He is also deadly enemies with the Blade Celestial. Years ago, the two men both competed for the affection of the beautiful Ling Er as well as leadership of the Shu Mountain order. When the two finally came to a head, they dueled each other, but came to a draw when Ling Er threw herself between the two to stop the fight. Unfortunately, this killed Ling Er as she stepped into the way of their income maelstorm like chi.

Master Gung Shu was filled with self-loathing and left the mountains, leaving Lien Yi to lead the order. The two have no set eyes upon each other in over 20 years. Whenever this topic is brought up, the two men would speak highly of each other's skills, but their words would be filled with bitterness and venom.

Huang Yao Shi: Swordsage 2 / Cleric X

Huang Yao Shi is one of the main instructors on the Shu Mountains. Unlike a lot of the other Shu Mountain warriors, Huang Yao Shi is student of many different disciplines and styles. His focus, however, turned to be internal medicine. (Owing much of his training to his time spent as a disciple of the 9 Veins, an order that teaches the moulding and usage of chi rather than just it's refinement) From a mixture of his training as a doctor and as an internal martial artist, his knowledge of internal medicine and usage of chi therapy is unmatched.

Not many are sure as to why Huang Yao Shi abandoned his old order to come under the banner of the Shu Mountain.

Wimp Lo: Bard 1

Joke character. He'll be my Dan Hibiki.

Quietus
2007-05-24, 12:54 PM
Gotta say, I like how that turned out - well played, my friend, well played!